Valar Guild

January 31, 2010 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon and Varda

Attending: (6)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), fladrifv, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, Menelvagor Valar

Meeting begins
    Arien's birthday
    Ar-Pharazon and a discussion of terms for tests in different countries.
    Menelvagor's progress on stopping smoking.
    Humor: new link
       Amongst much other running, skirmishing, and crafting, two main runs mentioned at the meeting were Sword Halls for the high levels and Dol Dinen for the low levels.
       Lothar server: Zul Gurub run after the meeting. (note: The instance was utterly owned by Elwing, Eonwe, Eowyn, Fangorn, Sauron, and Varda. Varda's family arrived home just in time for the run.)
        Gruntz, Guild Wars
    Menelvagor's Tolkien moment: deserving death or life. Mercy, Pity, free will.
    Art links to ROLOZO Tolkien's full-sized pictures are down due to coding problems on their new server, outside our control.
    RP: posting.

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: aiya
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: aiya all :-) just a sec need to blow up a mine shaft first :-)
fladrifv has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya, hang on, just gotta attack/escape from Arthas
Eonwe Valar: OK, ladies and gents, its that time.

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: Varda was unable to make it today, but I was :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other Membership news?
karakedi25: aiya!
Eonwe Valar: Heya Indis :}
AriehnV: aiya :-) detonation successful
ArPharazonV: soon, soon
Eonwe Valar: Congrats in the Dragonblight :}
AriehnV: ah well i guess i am a year older ^^
AriehnV: the big four as they say
Eonwe Valar: Congrats on that as well :}
AriehnV: yesterday :-) thanks
Eonwe Valar: You're only 4 years old? :}
AriehnV: lol the four in front of the zero and up "grins"
Eonwe Valar: (The phrase would be four-o as I've heard it.. just thought I'd throw that other part in first :})
AriehnV: :-) hehe
AriehnV: else my holiday is over and am back to work tomorrow
AriehnV: thats mine :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: I guess Phar's still running from Arthas, so we'll come back to him :}
Eonwe Valar: Web:
ArPharazonV: ok, back
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, go ahead :}
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya!
ArPharazonV: well, I had my exams this week, hope they went well
ArPharazonV: and now on a 2 week break before next period \o/ during which time I should really get some work done on my essay
ArPharazonV: but that's it ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: ah, your mid-terms :-)
ArPharazonV: and grats Arien!
ArPharazonV: well, mid-terms...
AriehnV: :-)
ArPharazonV: depends on how you define them since there's 4 periods with exams
ArPharazonV: and then there are exams within the middle of the period which some call midterms
Menelvagor Valar: exams are end of school exams :-)
Menelvagor Valar: our "tentamens" are called mid-terms :-)
ArPharazonV: what, in all 4 periods?
Menelvagor Valar: ya.
Menelvagor Valar: unless I got the translation completely wrong, which I rarely do :-)
ArPharazonV: so the last examinations before the end of the year are also "midterms"?
Menelvagor Valar: yep.
ArPharazonV: Odd.
Menelvagor Valar: because there's a 2, 3, 4 or more year term to your chosen studies.
AriehnV: what schools have now is called "half term" but i guess it really should be called "quarterterm"
AriehnV: .at least in the uk
ArPharazonV: anyway, these are my midyear exams, or end-of-period-2-exams
Menelvagor Valar: but Arien, if you get tests at the end of any school year, regardless whether it's your last, are those called exams or something else?
AriehnV: nah exams are exams
Menelvagor Valar: ya.
AriehnV: because thats what they are whatever u call them, grin
Menelvagor Valar: we Dutch people tend to make those terms really dang difficult :-)
ArPharazonV: we Dutch people just tend to make English terms really dang difficult, is you ask me
ArPharazonV: *if
Menelvagor Valar: that we do :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Anyways, sorry for the interruption which ended up becoming a dictionarian debate :-)
Menelvagor Valar: or linguistical if you prefer a more proper term :-D
ArPharazonV: np, I was done
ArPharazonV: bring on the web
Eonwe Valar: OK :}
Menelvagor Valar: what?
Menelvagor Valar: noes! :-D
Eonwe Valar: Web News:
Menelvagor Valar: I has member news :P
Eonwe Valar: Unless you have Membership news Menel?
Eonwe Valar: ok, go :}
Menelvagor Valar: okay :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Today I is celebrating a very special day.
Menelvagor Valar: it is today the last day of the first month without smoking.
ArPharazonV: Heh.
ArPharazonV: Congratulations.
AriehnV: grats :-D
ArPharazonV: Managing so far?
Menelvagor Valar: No real big issues so far, aside from a single day.
Menelvagor Valar: but I have managed to withstand any and all temptations so far, and those I still get are becoming more sparse and less bothersome to ignore.
AriehnV: well done :-)#
Menelvagor Valar: Yus.
Menelvagor Valar: So I is radiating even more happy energy than I was on friday, which Eonwe can attest to being excessively much :-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Menelvagor Valar: And that be it.
Eonwe Valar: Congrats Menel :}
Eonwe Valar: Now for Web :}
Eonwe Valar: Unless anyone else has member news? Last chance :}

Eonwe Valar: ok, on to Web :}
Eonwe Valar: New link under "Humor" : Sauron's Blog.
Eonwe Valar: Found and recommended by Elatan-(Valar), also recommended by Indis-(V). Middle-earth history from Sauron's point of view! Some language may not be suitable for young children, as might be expected from the Dark Lord.
Eonwe Valar: Those are Varda's words on the matter :}

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: LotRO: Volume 3, Book 1 will be beginning soon, and the patch will also include new and expanded skirmishes.
Eonwe Valar: Apparently the Volume 1 story will become soloable in the process.
Eonwe Valar: Also, there is now a Traits and Deeds guide in the official LotRO forum. Links to the guide and the sections can be found on the News Page.
Eonwe Valar: Landroval:
Eonwe Valar: I managed to make my way in there this week and get some stuff done :}
Eonwe Valar: Anyone have anything else we can share from Landroval?
karakedi25: nothing special. Still trying to get alts leveled in Mirkwood, so not really ready for a new book yet
Eonwe Valar: I know some of us did some stuff in Mirkwood, and *maybe* in Moria. Don't remember what though :}
karakedi25: Some of us grouped to farm the Sword Halls in Dol Guldur recently
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar: On to WoW:
Eonwe Valar: Lothar: Some of us have been asking for it, and since I'm available tonight we've got plans to hit Zul Gurub at 7pm Valar time (6pm my time, so about 1 and a half hours from now :})
AriehnV: wait Eonwe
AriehnV: are you on Lotro yet?
Eonwe Valar: I just finished LotRO. Asked for anything else we could share and Indis was the only one who spoke up :}
Eonwe Valar: Did you have more?
AriehnV: aye indeed i dont think she mentioned that one on tuesday night :-)
Eonwe Valar: OK, go ahead.
AriehnV: because i was online there and grouped with Varda, Eomer, Indis indeed, Tulkas and someone else i think to do some end quests in North Downs
AriehnV: Tulkas and Indis first helped with the hill men
AriehnV: and the others joined for flattening Dol Dinen
AriehnV: Pippin came later i think as Tulkas had to leave
AriehnV: was quite a nice blast
AriehnV: and my burglar got to 36
AriehnV: :-) thats it
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar: Back to WoW :}
Eonwe Valar: As I said ,we have plans to hit Zul Gurub. Guildies and Guild friends are welcome ,but I recommend a level 75 or higher character as I and likely some others are bringing lvl 80s, and anything lower than that will have a hard time hitting the bosses :}
Eonwe Valar: We'll let you know how it goes :} If we have enough afterwards, we might be able to try something more adventurous :}
Eonwe Valar: In other Blizzard news, they've set up a new Account Security Awareness webpage.
ArPharazonV: what do you mean "hard time hitting the bosses"?
ArPharazonV: Zul Gurub is the lvl 60 instance?
Eonwe Valar: Bosses marked by a skull, last I heard, adjust thenselves to the level of the higher lvl character in the group/raid, though their stats don't go up.
ArPharazonV: Oh right.
AriehnV: well they probably hit so hard that the high level peopls kill the bosses in two hits and the lowr levels wouoldnt have a chance to hit them
Eonwe Valar: Given that I tried lvl 60 Onyxia when I was 80 and I had a couple of low 70s with me, both of whom had a rough time attacking her, it seems to still be the case.
ArPharazonV: I always thought they were adapted to the individual player attacking them.
Menelvagor Valar: ZG is 60, ZA is 70.
ArPharazonV: But if your Ony-story is true, you're probably right.
Eonwe Valar: Doubting me? ;}
Menelvagor Valar: ZG you could do with 5 or 6 fairly geared 70s.
Eonwe Valar: We are talking about Zul Gurub, Menel :}
ArPharazonV: Well nobody's infallible. But I'm not callying you a purposeful liar.
Menelvagor Valar: 3 fairly geared 80s is plenty :-)
Eonwe Valar: I figured a few 80s could handle it, but I don't want people to feel like they're not contributing :}
Menelvagor Valar: hehe :-)
Menelvagor Valar: well, at Hakkar, a 70 healer may well be the working difference :-)
Menelvagor Valar: or a 70 tank for that matter :-)
Menelvagor Valar: but 60+ should be what you aim for anyways.
Menelvagor Valar: it was built for 20 mostly blue and some green geared characters anyways.
Menelvagor Valar: 20 lvl 60s that is.
ArPharazonV: I managed to solo Hakkar on 80 ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: you can't.
AriehnV: how on earth did u do that?
Menelvagor Valar: you simply can't.
Menelvagor Valar: trust me, I have tried. you get Mind controlled.
ArPharazonV: Well I did. We tried it with 2 first, but then I got MCd and killed the other player, and Hakkar reset. We decided that having 2, one would get DCd, so I went in alone to restart the fight, and did not get MCd.
ArPharazonV: Whileleaving the other person dead for that attempt.
Menelvagor Valar: ah.
ArPharazonV: so I did solo him in the end, and did not get MCd.
Menelvagor Valar: so the mind controlling effect is not in place when attempting it with 1.
ArPharazonV: yep
Menelvagor Valar: then I would solo him easily as well :-)
Menelvagor Valar: could even do it as kitty maybe :-)
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, back to the current topic :}
Eonwe Valar: Accoutn Security Awareness page located at:
Eonwe Valar: *Account
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news? Anyone play anything besides WoW and LotRO?
AriehnV: i can recommend that authenticicator
ArPharazonV: I've been playing some more Gruntz.
AriehnV: it finally arrived yesterday
ArPharazonV: Just a few levels.
ArPharazonV: They're definitely getting harder, and I don't dare think about what waits for me later in the game.
ArPharazonV: But... yeah, that's it. I also had some trouble getting into Guildwars, but that ended up being explained as patch-problems.
Menelvagor Valar:
Menelvagor Valar: that's the support page for how to add an authenticator to your account.
AriehnV: dont add it though before your electronic device arrives ^^
Menelvagor Valar: haha :-)
ArPharazonV: you know this from experience, Arien? :-)
AriehnV: buy it first in the blizzard shop , wait for it to arrive, THEN add it
AriehnV: *blushes* herrm
AriehnV: /blush
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news? :}
Menelvagor Valar: nope.

Eonwe Valar: OK, then let's move to Tolkien
Eonwe Valar: Menel, your floor.
Menelvagor Valar: Thank you.
Menelvagor Valar: Today, I have a small passage (long quote) to share with you all, which has stayed in my memory since the first time I read LotR (well, maybe and at most second time :-)).
Menelvagor Valar: The passage is just after Bilbo's 111th birthday party and is at the end of the talk between Gandalf and Frodo of the One Ring, including its trial by fire.
Menelvagor Valar: So, here's the quote.
Menelvagor Valar: But this is terrible! cried Frodo. Far worse than the worst that I imagined from your hints and warnings. O Gandalf, best of friends, what am I to do? For now I am really afraid. What a pity that Bilbo did not stab that vile creature, when he had a chance!
Menelvagor Valar: Pity? It was pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his owneership of the Ring so. With Pity.
Menelvagor Valar: I am sorry, said Frodo. But I am frightened; and I do not feel any pity for Gollum.
Menelvagor Valar: You have not seen him, Gandalf broke in.
Menelvagor Valar: No, and I don't want to, said Frodo. I can't understand you. Do you mean to say that you, and the Elves, have let him live on after all those terrible deeds? Now at any rate he is as bad as an Orc, and just an enemy. He deserves death.
Menelvagor Valar: Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.
Menelvagor Valar: I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring.
Menelvagor Valar: My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many - yours not least.
Menelvagor Valar: end quote.
karakedi25: That quote is the foreshadow of the essence of the story, or part of it.
Menelvagor Valar: Yes, but it is so much more.
ArPharazonV: what of this passage has captured your attention, then?
Menelvagor Valar: it holds the essence of one or two main story themes.
karakedi25: exactly
Menelvagor Valar: Well, first of all it's the fact that Mercy and Pity are stressed with capitals, signifying their importance.
Menelvagor Valar: and in the very end, we do see that Bilbo's Pity has ruled the fate of all free peoples.
Menelvagor Valar: Which, by the way is the second reason why this passage has stood out to me.
Menelvagor Valar: and Thirdly, it's the entire death deserving answer Gandalf gives.
ArPharazonV: it may have done so long before the "very end", for who knows what may have happened if Bilbo had not pitied him?
Menelvagor Valar: Frodo may have gotten stuck in the Dead Marshes.
Menelvagor Valar: At any rate...
ArPharazonV: It may have taken hold of him far earlier, prevent him from giving it up. On the other hand, it would have prevented Gollum from pointing out the Shire to Sauron.
Menelvagor Valar: "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."
Menelvagor Valar: that part is the main reason why I love this passage so much.
ArPharazonV: Yes. I love that statement Gandalf makes. It is a lesson that people should hold dear to their hearts, perhaps moreso than any other in the Lord of the Rings.
Menelvagor Valar: I can't really put into words why I love that statement, but it's just.... the wow.
ArPharazonV: It's always drawn my attention as well.
ArPharazonV: One thing that bothers me about it, though, is that Gandalf does judge people to deserve death, even if he speaks against dealing it out in judgement. "Many that live deserve death" is a powerful statement.
ArPharazonV: especially since he follows it up by stating that, apparently, far fewer dead people deserved not to be so.
Menelvagor Valar: and which is true nonetheless.
Eonwe Valar: That's "simply" Gandalf recognizing that there are those that have done great evils that deserve such a great punishment.
ArPharazonV: I know Gandalf should not be idolized as a perfect ideology or personality, and that he too can harbor hatred and anger and death in judgement.... but it still seems eerily uncharacteristic, especially in the quantities he speaks of.
Menelvagor Valar: Not really.
ArPharazonV: I would have admired the statement he makes in this passage more if he'd switched around "many" and "some".
Menelvagor Valar: remember, he's not specifically speaking of the free peoples.
Menelvagor Valar: he's also, if not explicitly, including every monster ever conceived by Morgoth.
karakedi25: I suppose he could have said "many who could be supposed to deserve death" but that's kind of splitting hairs
Menelvagor Valar: and as harsh as it may sound, Morgoth's spawn deserve death by merit of being Morgoth's spawn alone.
ArPharazonV: That is true. A point that needs to be considered. We are not used to living in a world including monsters and races of evil, but in a world that is ruled wholly by humans.
Eonwe Valar: Gandalf did acknowledge that Gollum "deserved" death. Let's not forget one of the other important themes of LotR: Free Will. The unrightful taking of one's life is also the denial of one's free will, and Gollum is a murderer.
ArPharazonV: My perception is thus probably skewed in the matter.
ArPharazonV: the idea of a purely evil race is hard for me to grasp, perhaps
Eonwe Valar: Gandalf had no qualms killing wolves and orcs who were attacking, in order to defend those around him.
ArPharazonV: You're quite right. I should have considered this.
Menelvagor Valar: And I reckon he would have killed Gollum as well, if his heart had not told him otherwise.
Menelvagor Valar: Aragorn and the Elves did not kill Gollum on Gandalf;s word that he should be detained and not killed.
Menelvagor Valar: For even Aragorn admits becoming weary of Gollum on their long trek north from the Black Gates to the Woodland Realm.
Eonwe Valar: Orcs, while a ruined people, are capable of acting under their own free will, and were not completely wiped out by Aragorn after Sauron's fall. He gave them the land around the Sea of Nurnen in Mordor, as I recall.
Menelvagor Valar: I have never read such a thing, Eonwe.
ArPharazonV: I thought he left that land to Sauron's slaves and human minions, to be honest.
Menelvagor Valar: that's what I think as well.
karakedi25: yes, Phar, that's my understanding
AriehnV: (sz can t type at mo // blck futball obstacle)
Menelvagor Valar: those were the culmination of Morgoth's and Sauron's corruption.
Menelvagor Valar: they were not in essence from Morgoth.
Menelvagor Valar: Orcs were.
ArPharazonV: Orcs were also a consequence of corruption, and breeding from the result. But I see your point.
karakedi25: I'm fairly certain that orcs were viewed as unredeemable
ArPharazonV: Morgoth (and Sauron) could not make a new race from nothing. All he could do was corrupt and mock, and I assume not even the latter without the former.
Menelvagor Valar: well, I am differentiating between physical corruption (Huan vs Charcharoth, Dragons vs Ents, Orcs vs Elves) and mental corruption.
Menelvagor Valar: the thing I was trying to point out, was that Orcs were the spawn of Morgoth's thoughts, and therefore, evil.
ArPharazonV: physical corruption is an interesting definition :-) one could argue that with enough time, Sauron might have physically corrupted the Southrons and Easterlings as well
Eonwe Valar: I suppose so. RotK says "slaves of Mordor," not specifically orcs. Orcs, however, were slaves of Sauron as well. I can't imagine too many humans wanting to remain in that land.
Menelvagor Valar: Humans, and Elves for that matter, or even the Ainur are the spawn of Iluvatar's thoughts.
Menelvagor Valar: they could turn evil and do evil deeds, but at their core they were not evil.
Menelvagor Valar: Not even Melkor / Morgoth.
Eonwe Valar: Orcs were corrupted Elves...
Menelvagor Valar: Even in the end, when Melkor was chained for the final time, the Valar did offer him repentance if I remember correctly.
Menelvagor Valar: so it is assumed.
ArPharazonV: And Orcs were bred evil from the moment of their birth/creation? that could be something.... I suppose even the Men under Sauron, or the Swarthy Men under Morgoth, were not born as such, but raised to be.
Menelvagor Valar: but it is nowhere explicitly stated Eonwe.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye.
ArPharazonV: It is stated, though, Menel, that Morgoth could not create a race like Orcs from scratch.
ArPharazonV: They had to be corrupted from something, in the beginning.
Menelvagor Valar: Men, no matter where they are born, are Children of Iluvatar.
ArPharazonV: They do have feas after all.
Menelvagor Valar: aye.
Eonwe Valar: It is explicitly stated, however, that Morgoth had lost his ability for subcreation. He could only corrupt others' works.
ArPharazonV: Orcs, I mean.
Menelvagor Valar: and we should not forget, that Melkor even corrupted other Maia with his ideas.
ArPharazonV: And yes, what Eonwe said, I meant, in case I wasn't clear.
Menelvagor Valar: and as the Silmarillion points out, those who participated in the music were part of the greater plan, no matter whether they followed one faction or the other.
Menelvagor Valar: So all that transpired was eventually by Iluvatar's design.
Menelvagor Valar: for good or for ill.
ArPharazonV: that sure puts free will in perspective, though that's not a discussion I want to face.... again
Eonwe Valar: I would not say that the bad that happened was Iluvatar's design. He allowed for a choice between good and evil.
Menelvagor Valar: aye, but the end result, was according to his design, or at least, that's what is said at the start of the Sil I think.
Menelvagor Valar: Of course, I admit that it's kinda putting two opposites in the same reason, but that's what happens sometimes :-)
Menelvagor Valar: At any rate.
Eonwe Valar: Melkor set out to directly countermand Iluvatar's design, Iluvatar incorporated Melkor's discord to show him that it was futile to do so.
Menelvagor Valar: so, even though Melkor had the free will to countermand the design, it was eventually according to Iluvatar's design.
Eonwe Valar: Or as I beleive it is put in either the Sil or in BoLT "What you have intended for evil, I will use for good."
Menelvagor Valar: Aye.
Menelvagor Valar: so any and every action of evil taken by anyone will be used for good at some point or another by Iluvatar.
Eonwe Valar: To quote Namo aka Mandos, Doomsayer of the Valar, however...
Menelvagor Valar: therefore, whether you have free will or not, the end result will still be the same :-)
Menelvagor Valar: you may not see that result in your time, but well... you get the jist :-).
Eonwe Valar: When another Vala remarked, "Evil yet be good to have been," or some similar phrasing,..Namo says, "And yet remain evil."
Menelvagor Valar: Namo... that's Mandos, right?
Eonwe Valar: Aye :}
ArPharazonV: yep
Menelvagor Valar: woot memory :-)
Eonwe Valar: I did mention it above as well :}
ArPharazonV: Eonwe also said it a few sentences earlier ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: wasn't he sort of the Valar's Judge?
AriehnV: depends on how you define "doomsayer"
Menelvagor Valar: I just read: "To quote Namo, Doomsayer of the Valar, however...
Menelvagor Valar: bad me for skimming that sentence :-)
ArPharazonV: I doubt it's meant as the pessimist, Arien ;-)
Eonwe Valar: He was the Doomsman of the Valar. He knew all the history of Arda from "Ea!" to Dagor Dagorath, save that which Eru still held in his own discretion.
AriehnV: aye , "doom" as in "fate" much a "farseer " than any anything i think
Menelvagor Valar: and he was always foremost in opposing Melkor.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye Arien :-)
Eonwe Valar: He only spoke at the bidding of Manwë.
Menelvagor Valar: well, as you know, I do get some things mixed up now and then :-D
AriehnV: bleh ur better at these things than iam ^^
Menelvagor Valar: It was probably Ulmo who was the greatest anti-Melkor activist :-)
Eonwe Valar: Tulkas was more or less useless as a counsellor, but a steadfast friend (heance the name) and always an ardent supporter of Manwë.
Eonwe Valar: *heance = hence
Eonwe Valar: Ulmo, yea,h probably him :}
Menelvagor Valar: well, you are still adding things to the discussion I hadn't thought of Arien, so in that respect, you're better than I am :-)
Eonwe Valar: Although, Oromë and Yavanna were the most active outside Aman within Arda.
Menelvagor Valar: besides, here, we are all the same, no matter the amount of knowledge we bring to the floor :-)
AriehnV: :-)
karakedi25: yes, and both Orome and Yavanna counseled war against Melkor very early on
Eonwe Valar: Helps to have books at the ready for what we don't remember well too :}
Menelvagor Valar: haha :-)
Menelvagor Valar: true Eonwe, but I don't remember either Orome or Yavanna being mentioned as taking active action against Melkor.
Eonwe Valar: Oromë actively hunted Morgoth's creatures before the Elves awoke.
karakedi25: no, I remember that Yavanna counseled action but didn't take it on her own
AriehnV: indeed Eonwe you got that out faster than i did
Menelvagor Valar: There is one very clear instance (and hinting at more instances) of Ulmo working against Melkor even after the Elves and Men awoke.
AriehnV: aye but Orome was active against Melkor before the Elves arrived
Menelvagor Valar: aside from creating the Ents at seeing that Eru didn't smite Aule's dwarves :-)
AriehnV: remember he used his horn
Menelvagor Valar: Yes, I do remember now :-)
karakedi25: the ents weren't in response to Melkor
Menelvagor Valar: but truth be told, it's mostly the stories and the lives of the free peoples that concern me, not the times before that... well, not much anyways, with exception of a few things :-)
karakedi25: Ulmo was very active after the exile of the Noldor. He communicated with Turgon and Tuor, at the very least
Eonwe Valar: Hmm? Don't think someone said they were. I only see Menel's mention they were related to the creation of the Dwarves.
karakedi25: and sent a dream to Finrod and companion
Menelvagor Valar: Eonwe beat me to it :-)
ArPharazonV: he appeared in some form to contact Tuor, didn't he?
ArPharazonV: a giant of sorts?
Menelvagor Valar: oh, aye.
karakedi25: yes, just saying in the context of action against Melkor
Menelvagor Valar: A king of the seas.
Eonwe Valar: ok
Menelvagor Valar: aye Indis, but that particular sentence of mine was in response to Yavanna counceling action, but not taking any :-)
Eonwe Valar: I thought Ted Nasmith's Ulmo/Tuor picutre was pretty good. There's another one I liked too, by...
Menelvagor Valar: Actually, I have a UT version where the cover graphics displays Ulmo standing before Tuor.
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, don't remember who did it.
Menelvagor Valar: He very much looks like a Poseidon or Triton (for those who have seen and not purged The Little Mermaid from their memories).
Eonwe Valar: Minus the fish tail, hehe.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye.
Menelvagor Valar: and plus 2 legs :-)
Menelvagor Valar: he seems darker too.
Eonwe Valar: Aha, John Howe did the other one.
Menelvagor Valar: really much more like Poseidon rather than Triton.

ArPharazonV: has some artists who've done pictures it seems
Menelvagor Valar: all of them leading to internal server error.
Eonwe Valar: The news mentioned a problem with the Rolozo Tolkien page, where most of those images are.
ArPharazonV: yes, but it still mentions the artists
ArPharazonV: has a few
Eonwe Valar: Now, if anyone Guild members, full or Tolkien-Only, want to do some Illustrations for the Valar Guild's Art page, the Glittering Caves of Aglarond, then feel free to do so and send them to Varda :}
Eonwe Valar: As far as the Rolozo Tolkien page goes...
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien Site illustration problem: The majority of pictures our Tolkien Encyclopedia uses for illustrations are not currently available due to a change in the server coding where the Rolozo Tolkien Site resides. Emails are now passing around and we hope the issue will be resolved. Fortunately we have our own art site, although not nearly as extensive. Anyone wishing to add their artwork to aid our Tolkien Encyclopedia or for particular stories or poems, please contact Varda.
Menelvagor Valar: the one by John Howe is the one that is the one on my UT.
Eonwe Valar: From our News page.
ArPharazonV: well there is a Rolozo Tolkien page that works, if I look at [Note: that is the same collection we are using by permission. The thumbnails work but a coding problem due to a server change is preventing the large pictures from showing, and it is the large pictures that we link into.]
ArPharazonV: though I'm not sure if you can use this information
Eonwe Valar: It helps, thanks :}

Eonwe Valar: If we are finished discussing Menel's Tolkien Moment (thank you, btw, Menel :}) then I'd like to take these last couple of minutes before I bang the gavel to point to the RP.
Eonwe Valar: I did finally make a post this past week, and included the quote that gave me partial inspiration for it in our discussion thread.

AriehnV: i just stumbled upon a wonder ful picture gallery posted by TheOneRing.Net , by Rolozo Tolkien (a relative of J. R. .R ?>
Eonwe Valar: If you get a minute or two, feel free to check out both.
Eonwe Valar: I doubt it Arien :}
ArPharazonV: that's the link I gave last, Arien :-)
AriehnV: ah nice :-) he has nice pics of everything u can think of including Ulmo
Menelvagor Valar: I feel like it's my turn to post... but there's something that's bugging me.
Menelvagor Valar: and I kinda need Varda to clarify :-(
Eonwe Valar: I assume a better way to understand "Rolozo Tolkien" would be "Rolozo's Tolkien Art Gallery" :} As it has art from various artists.
Menelvagor Valar: Rolozo Tolkien is the Tolkien section of Rolozo's art :-)
Eonwe Valar: There we go :}
Menelvagor Valar: And Rolozo, if I remember correctly is at least more than 1 person. [note: the one operating the site is one person who gathers artwork, named Ryan Lovett. ROLOZO is an acronym. See our page on the Tolkien Site under Acknowledgements/Images.]
Eonwe Valar: Except he has art in there by Ted Nasmith, so I assume it's more his collection of Tolkien art than art he's saying is his :}
Eonwe Valar: *Teds Nasmith and others
Eonwe Valar: *Ted even
Menelvagor Valar: that would be the other explanation :-)

ArPharazonV: Can you state what's bugging you, Menel? We'll probably not be able to help if you need Varda, but she'll be reading this anyway
Eonwe Valar: You can also put it in the discussion thread for further discussion :} It's been slow in that thar discussion thread :}
ArPharazonV: True.
Eonwe Valar: Assuming we don't settle it here, that is.
Menelvagor Valar: Well, I really would like to start using the name of the horse Varda has acquired for me with so much pains... can't keep calling it horse for ever, can I?
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, true :}
ArPharazonV: pff, your can call it horse, mount, steed, whatever....
ArPharazonV: plenty of alternatives to keep you going! [note: Valar Guild's Tolkien Site Equines section for all forms of horses]
AriehnV: ah
Eonwe Valar: Except Bill, Can't call it Bill. That's taken :}
ArPharazonV: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Did Varda give the horse a name yet?
ArPharazonV: or Roheryn
Eonwe Valar: Shadowfax would probably be out of the question too :}
ArPharazonV: Brego ;-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
karakedi25: or the name of her horse, or mine (Duroch)
karakedi25: does Calion's horse have a name?
Eonwe Valar: Quesselomë
Eonwe Valar: Varda's is Hithceleb, mine is Sulenar.
ArPharazonV: or my dear Quesselome
ArPharazonV: aye
Eonwe Valar: Amusing that I actually remember the horse's names :}
Menelvagor Valar: well, given its mild demeanor, I would assume it would be something that includes mild or something similar to it in Sindarin.
Eonwe Valar: *horses'
Menelvagor Valar: hehe.
Menelvagor Valar: professional or high personal interest I assume?
ArPharazonV: I think there's another accent in my horse's name, though I can't remember which or where
Eonwe Valar: I guess I've just read the names enough to remember them :}
ArPharazonV: Felarof?
Menelvagor Valar: I think that was Theoden's mount.
Eonwe Valar: I'm referring to the RP's horses' names, not the names of horses in LotR :} I'd expect me to remember those :}
Menelvagor Valar: then you can tell me whether I think right, Eonwe :-)
AriehnV: ok i just put a short addition to Frali's post , so he is on his pony now
ArPharazonV: Eorl's, to be honest
ArPharazonV: hmm, my chat's lagging a bit
Menelvagor Valar: you know... I think you're actually right Pharzie :-)
Menelvagor Valar: but at least I had the lineage right, if a few centuries off :-)
ArPharazonV: hehe
ArPharazonV: what was Theoden's horse called, then?
AriehnV: Snowmane
Eonwe Valar: Shadowfax, until Gandalf took him :}
ArPharazonV: Hah.
Menelvagor Valar: only assumed Eonwe, only assumed.
Menelvagor Valar: because he was the head of the Méaras :-)
ArPharazonV: Nobody could tame Shadowfax, I recall, and Theoden never rode him.
Menelvagor Valar: as Gandalf says it, "Shadowfax has no master, he only tolerates me to ride."
ArPharazonV: Perhaps it was a bit mean on Theoden's side to give Gandalf this untameable horse to ride
ArPharazonV: but little did he know, it would work!
Menelvagor Valar: he didn't give Shadowfax to Gandalf until he was cured of Saruman's poison!
ArPharazonV: Hm? Oh, then I'm mistaken. Gandalf just made off with it, did he?
Menelvagor Valar: Theoden simply bid Gandalf gone and take any horse he would when he was under the first effects of Saruman's poison.
ArPharazonV: Ah.
Menelvagor Valar: bade*
Eonwe Valar: Theoden told Gandalf to take a horse and be gone. Gandalf took Shadowfax :}
Eonwe Valar: And aye, what Menel said :}
Menelvagor Valar: and Theoden was even more wrothful after :-)
ArPharazonV: and whose horse was Asfaloth, Eonwe? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Glorfindel :}
Menelvagor Valar: I was looking for that name :-D
Eonwe Valar: *NOT* Arwen's :}
ArPharazonV: hehe
ArPharazonV: tell that to Liv
Menelvagor Valar: In my head was like... [quote Eonwe], that was a movie thing!
ArPharazonV: and then there was... Nahar....
Menelvagor Valar: Orome's?
karakedi25: yes
ArPharazonV: yep
Menelvagor Valar: And then there was... hmmm.... Huan *smirks*]
ArPharazonV: Arod?
ArPharazonV: I don't remember the other one
Eonwe Valar: Hasufel
ArPharazonV: ah, right
ArPharazonV: and now you know which horse-names not to pick, unless you want to name it after one of those mentioned
Menelvagor Valar: But still, now we at least know what we "Can't" call my current mount.
Menelvagor Valar: not what it IS called :-D
Eonwe Valar: Arod was used by Gimli and Legolas, Hasufel by Aragorn.
Eonwe Valar: After their rightful masters were slain, anyway.
AriehnV: what colour is it?
AriehnV: Estarions horse i mean
Menelvagor Valar: I think it was not said, but I can look it up.
karakedi25: I don't remember mention of either a name or a color
ArPharazonV: oh, here's one
ArPharazonV: whose horse is Windfola?
AriehnV: oh that was Dermhelms
AriehnV: err the lady Eowym
ArPharazonV: very good!
AriehnV: Eowyn even
Menelvagor Valar: They found a suitable horse, one that a second cousin had made available and should be perfect for Estarion. She gave him a few exercises to try out for the evening, staying until he seemed to have an idea of what to do. She mentioned where the guest quarters were, and left him to his practice; he seemed very determined!
Menelvagor Valar: that's what Varda said about the horse :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Scouting Ahead, Part 5: Return to Mirkwood page 5.
karakedi25: then you could probably decide on the name and color
ArPharazonV: Arien, let's see if you know this one... Firefoot
AriehnV: to make it easy you can choose the name in relation to colour and temper
Menelvagor Valar: well yes, but I always translate my names out of Quenya :-D
Menelvagor Valar: and besides, Beren's Lorebook is down, (or at least the word list), so I can't use that now, nor for this particular horse.
AriehnV: hmmm that was the horse that Eomer rode?
ArPharazonV: Yes! It was.
ArPharazonV: You're good. I'm not nearly as good with names, I'm just picking these up from lists on the internet.
Eonwe Valar: Sindarin isn't *too* much different, just a few different sounds, Ithil instead of Isil, that kind of thing.
Menelvagor Valar: Go girl! Go girl! Go girl! woooooohoooo :-D
AriehnV: ;D
AriehnV: :-D
ArPharazonV: Stybba!
AriehnV: Frodo
ArPharazonV: close
Menelvagor Valar: wasn't that Merry's pony?
ArPharazonV: it was
Menelvagor Valar: w00t :-)
AriehnV: ah :-)
Eonwe Valar: Beren's Lorebook isn't down, it moved a while back.
Menelvagor Valar: the word list is down though.
Eonwe Valar: directly to the language portion.
ArPharazonV: Rochallor?
Menelvagor Valar: that was hosted on geocities, which discontinued all free services.
Menelvagor Valar: and I should know, I checked it not a fortnight ago.
Eonwe Valar: The wordlist you have to download now. It's in a zip file here:
Eonwe Valar:
AriehnV: dont know that one Pharzie :-)
AriehnV: you beat me there
ArPharazonV: Menel, do you know it?
Menelvagor Valar: try to click that link Eonwe :-)
Menelvagor Valar: refers to a Geocities site.
Menelvagor Valar:
Eonwe Valar: Openned for me Menel :}
Menelvagor Valar: to be exact :-)
Eonwe Valar: hold on...
ArPharazonV: the zipfile doesn't work for me
Eonwe Valar: Ok, you're right.
ArPharazonV: and if none of you know, Rochallor was Fingolfin's horse
Eonwe Valar: I'll tell you what though...
Menelvagor Valar: yesh, thanksies, I'd love that!
Menelvagor Valar: thanks again Eonwe!
Eonwe Valar: I *do* have the wordlist, and it's getting ready to be on the Valar Guild server.
Menelvagor Valar: Yesh! I is officially psychic now :-D
ArPharazonV: Is my chat lagging again, or did you respond to Eonwe before he said...
ArPharazonV: Ah.
Menelvagor Valar: Yes, I did respond before Eonwe said :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I was being prophetic in knowing he was going to make the word list available to me :-)
ArPharazonV: Right, right.
Menelvagor Valar: Although, truth be told, I had expected him to mail it to me :-D
Eonwe Valar: I'll put it up there in the main folder for now, and let Varda pick the spot she wants it in later if she wishes to move it to a move appropo location.
Eonwe Valar: *to a more appropo
Menelvagor Valar: aprôs-po?
AriehnV: nice one Phara :-) cool quizz on horse names nice
Menelvagor Valar: or appropriate :-D
ArPharazonV: a more appropriate should work
Eonwe Valar: is where you can get it for now.

 [note: from our Language site, we already have another link to the online word-list on Tripod for both Elvish to Quenya and the reverse. Somehow the wordlist was not moved along with our site during our server upgrade, but the English to Quenya word list 1.3 is now back on our site with both the html wordlist and previously collected zip file, thanks to this discussion. The zip file Eonwe posted will be left where he put it for the moment, but may be dropped for space as a redundancy later.]

AriehnV: appropriate place ?
ArPharazonV: a more appropriate location
Menelvagor Valar: yeah, cuz appropo sounds like it's a mangled incorporotation of a french word that probably translates as "nerves".
ArPharazonV: an incorporotation? there's a word I'd like in scrabble
Eonwe Valar: a more appropriate location. We'll just say that for clarity.
karakedi25: appropos is an English word (borrowed from French and pronounced accordingly)
Menelvagor Valar: incorporation :-)
Menelvagor Valar: yesh!
karakedi25: but it's kind of elevated
Menelvagor Valar: that's the word I meant Indis.
ArPharazonV: it's apropos in Dutch I think
Menelvagor Valar: but still means nerves in Dutch at least.
ArPharazonV: didn't know what it was in English though
ArPharazonV: hmm... let's see... got one more horse here.. Arroch
Menelvagor Valar: anyways, this week I'll be working on naming the horse :-)
ArPharazonV: whose is it?
Menelvagor Valar: dunno, but you still forgot a very prominent one.
ArPharazonV: I probably did. I do remember old Fatty Lumpkin.
karakedi25: it means appropriate
Menelvagor Valar: so who did Arroch belong to?
ArPharazonV: Hurin
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, the Wordlist for the meantime is available from that link. Download and unzip it.
Menelvagor Valar: then either the dutch or the english translation is extremely mangled :-)
ArPharazonV: wouldn't be surprised if both translations were extremely mangled ;-)
ArPharazonV: so what horse am I missing, Menel?
Menelvagor Valar: I'll let you get that in reverse.
Menelvagor Valar: Samwise.
ArPharazonV: Oh, we already mentioned Bill at the start.
Menelvagor Valar: we did?
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Bill was the first mention :}
Menelvagor Valar: shishkebab, I completely missed that :-D
Eonwe Valar: I said 'Except Bill. Can't name him Bill..." :}
AriehnV: yep Eonwe said "you cant call it Bill, thats already taken"
Menelvagor Valar: righto.
ArPharazonV: Indeed! I thought it wouldn't do to relist him after that.
Menelvagor Valar: gotta delearn selective reading :-D
AriehnV: hehe
Menelvagor Valar: maybe when I get a free talent respec :-)
AriehnV: ^^ i think the talent i would use next for now would be "telport upstairs"
AriehnV: :-)
ArPharazonV: Hmm. I want one of those. I have a few druidy points to reallocate but I want to keep my "no respecs" statistic clean ;-)
Eonwe Valar: OK ladies and gents, I'll be banging the gavel and moving us to Aftermeeting :}
AriehnV: hehe i break every respec record with whatsoever character :-)
Eonwe Valar: *Raises gavel to the sky*
ArPharazonV: Menel, when the heck did Improved Mark of the Wild get such an upgrade? I mean, +2% stats for the druid?
ArPharazonV: I only noticed it a few days ago
AriehnV: "beam me up Eonwe"
ArPharazonV: *grin*
Menelvagor Valar: *strikes out with a solar flare and takes the gavel from Eonwe*
Eonwe Valar: *Brings gavel crashing down, signalling the end of this week's meeting*

Menelvagor Valar: tooo late harrharr :-D
ArPharazonV: *removes what remains of the table*
AriehnV: "chuckles" i love you lot :-)
AriehnV: Namarie :-)
Menelvagor Valar: haha :-)
Eonwe Valar: You think a Solar Flare could work on me? :}
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie Arien :-)
ArPharazonV: did you know the exact phrase "Beam me up Scotty" was never used?
ArPharazonV: Namarie Arien
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien :}
Menelvagor Valar: I expect you to materialize a new gavel instantly, but yes.
AriehnV: i know he only said "energy"
AriehnV: :-)
AriehnV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: oh, I had something to mention for the ADers, maybe Arien will read the transcript, I might be so lucky
Eonwe Valar: A gavel forged by Aulë, and you think a solar flare could even make it warm? :}
Menelvagor Valar: no :-)
Menelvagor Valar: but I didn't destroy it, I took it.
ArPharazonV: if any of you still play on Argent Dawn - Europe, I'm looking for Pristine Black Diamonds to finish up my Shen'dralar reputation grind
Menelvagor Valar: you know, make the solar flare a hand like thingy, as you could expect from a molten, burning liquid, gaseous and apparently intelligent entity...
ArPharazonV: I have just about all the librams I need now, but I'm over 2 dozen diamonds short, and they're suddenly very expensive on the Auction House
Menelvagor Valar: Right?
ArPharazonV: so if you come across them, let me know!
Menelvagor Valar: I think I gave you all the Pristine's I had a while ago :-)
ArPharazonV: could be :-)
ArPharazonV: but you might find more
Menelvagor Valar: besides, I am not re-activating my account just for giving you a couple of lumps of charcoal.
Menelvagor Valar: errr... diamonds.
ArPharazonV: *grin* of course
ArPharazonV: spoken like a true cosmic being
Menelvagor Valar: haha :-)
Menelvagor Valar: well, you're one too.
ArPharazonV: diamonds are nothing but highly pressurized carbon after all!
ArPharazonV: well, it's not exactly that, but you get the point
Menelvagor Valar: you reside in the cosmos, do you not?
ArPharazonV: I reside in my own world, thank you!
ArPharazonV: well, mentally at least
Menelvagor Valar: Of course I do get the point. although point is not really pertinent for a celestial being that has no form :-)
Menelvagor Valar: IN your own world no less!
ArPharazonV: And nobody else is allowed in. Very quiet here.
Menelvagor Valar: very small too I bet.
Menelvagor Valar: if it's not, I can reduce the size a bit for you.
ArPharazonV: oh, it's large... quite large, I haven't put a scale to it yet
Menelvagor Valar: Anyways, I'm off :-) I'll save and send a transcript tomorrow :-D
Menelvagor Valar: about a 1 by 1 in micrometer scale?
Menelvagor Valar: 1 by 1 by 1 that is of course.
ArPharazonV: Perhaps. If you zoom out a lot.
Menelvagor Valar: right...
Menelvagor Valar: I am most likely about.... what.... at least a few hundred light years away... that zoomed out enough for you? :-)
ArPharazonV: Let's not get abstract here. I was referring to the world inside my head.
Menelvagor Valar: I wasn't going to push dimensions any further than the fun there's to be had in mentioning them Pharzie :-)
ArPharazonV: In any case, maybe Arien will read this and maybe she'll find some diamonds, I don't know. I couldn't catch her before she logged out.
ArPharazonV: I just know I don't want to spend 1000 gold per diamond.
Menelvagor Valar: You wouldn't want to catch her just as you wouldn't want to catch me.
Menelvagor Valar: unless you'd like to be burned to a cinder aside from being buried alive as well.
ArPharazonV: Well, you only live once, right?
Menelvagor Valar: and can die twice though.
Menelvagor Valar: wouldn't be pleasant I think :-)
Menelvagor Valar: uhm...
ArPharazonV: ehr..
ArPharazonV: I think I may have lost you.
Menelvagor Valar: or you could go farming LBRS / BRD?
ArPharazonV: BRD only gives the normal variety.
Menelvagor Valar: I think you may be right, I think I lost me as well.
ArPharazonV: I've gotten like 2 in all the DM runs I've done so far to get more librams and shackle keys. They drop, but they're very, very rare, and I don't think actually farming them is much of an option.
Menelvagor Valar: or you could mine for em :-)
ArPharazonV: They're mineable now?
Menelvagor Valar: nope.
Menelvagor Valar: just thought they might have been.
Menelvagor Valar: anyways.
Menelvagor Valar: go farm Zul Gurub elites.
ArPharazonV: Heh.
Menelvagor Valar: they have much more chance of dropping stuff than DM does.
ArPharazonV: A comm-member of mine got one in Blackwing Lair today. Before she went, I half-jokingly asked her to bring me any pristine black diamonds she found.
ArPharazonV: She actually got one!
Menelvagor Valar: all that drops them diamonds in DM are named mobs and Eldreth Wraiths.
Menelvagor Valar: yup.
ArPharazonV: I know I got one from an unnamed ogre.
ArPharazonV: Wowhead confirms this, even.
ArPharazonV: they don't appear to drop in East, though
Menelvagor Valar: Gordon Bushwacker by any chance? :-D
Menelvagor Valar: Gordok*
ArPharazonV: nah, brutes, mage lords, reavers, warlocks, etc
Menelvagor Valar: Gordok therefore.
Menelvagor Valar: yes, they have between 0.1 and 0.3% chance of dropping the diamonds.
ArPharazonV: Well yeah. Gordok. But everything in there (except the bugs) is called Gordok.
ArPharazonV: in North that is
Menelvagor Valar: most of the ZG elites have between 0.5 and 1.5 (and some even more, up to 2.0) percent of dropping.
ArPharazonV: exactly what site are you using? because Wowhead puts them at 0.5% at most
Menelvagor Valar: Yes, but everything in that particular part is ogres, and the ogres are the Gordok tribe or clan or whatever.
Menelvagor Valar:;E::A
ArPharazonV: Your point was that only named mobs in DM drop them.
ArPharazonV: If you look at it that way, every mob is namd.
ArPharazonV: *named
ArPharazonV: which, while confirming your statement, hardly seems like the point you wished to make
Menelvagor Valar: yeah, you're right.
Menelvagor Valar: the best Thott gives is 0.7 in ZG.
Menelvagor Valar: actually, 0.9
Menelvagor Valar: Blood Priests, near Hakkar.
Menelvagor Valar: if I remember correctly.
fladrifv has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: and Hakkari Witch Docs at 0.7
ArPharazonV: Still. I'm not going to farm blood priests with a 1% chance. That's a bit... pointless.
ArPharazonV: I think I'll just keep checkin' the AH.
Menelvagor Valar: hehe :-)
Menelvagor Valar: you do so, I am off for now.
ArPharazonV: Namarie. So am I, it's getting rather late.
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie (and don't expect me to exit the channel, cuz I won't.).
ArPharazonV: So now we can talk about you behind your back while you're here. How amusing.
Menelvagor Valar: you can try, but you can neither succeed nor can you not fail.
ArPharazonV: *shoos away the constellation* you're supposed to not be here while we talk about you
Menelvagor Valar: I am not here.
Menelvagor Valar: you're just imagining me responding.
ArPharazonV: That's what all the voices say. I've never believed them before.