Valar Guild

July 15, 2007 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ancalagon and Varda

Attending: (9)
    Members: AriehnV, Eonwe Valar, Fladrifv, Gelmir-(V)/Shaggyjoe, GilraenV, GlorfindelVG, Lungorthin-(V)/sauronjag, Olwe-(V)/FallenGlory, VardaValar1 (presiding)
    Hello's from over the shoulder or from another game (5): Irmo-(Valar) in LotRO, Fangorn-(Valar) in WoW, Sauron-(Valar), Eowyn-(V) in WoW, Bilbo-(V).

Meeting begins
Web: new for theLinks, Tolkien Site, and Games page. Request for a new webmaster for the Book List and Reviews.
Tolkien: nature of Dwarves

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1: Ancalagon! Aiya :-)
Fladrifv has entered the room.
FallenGlory has entered the room.
Fladrifv: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
Shaggyjoe has entered the room.
Shaggyjoe: hello :-)
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
AriehnV has left the room.
Shaggyjoe: Leaving for work in a few minutes.
VardaValar1: Glad you could drop by : )
VardaValar1: Hope work treats you decently today.
GilraenV has entered the room.
GilraenV: Aiya folks
VardaValar1: Aiya Gilraen : )

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership Report:
VardaValar1: No one new this week. A lot of people seem to be on vacation.
VardaValar1: Do any of you want to report any membership news?
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Hello from Fangorn, Eowyn, Sauron, and Bilbo.
VardaValar1: Welcome back, Arien : )
AriehnV: ooops , Aiya all :-)
VardaValar1: Did you have any membership news?
AriehnV: no, no membership news here
VardaValar1: Eonwe is on his way in : )
GilraenV: No news here
VardaValar1: So, you stuffed Gwaihir in a sock? : )
GilraenV: well, Gwai is sleeping, but his away message will tell that as well as I
VardaValar1: Thank you. We'll just let him roost then.
GilraenV: aye, his feathers might be ruffled if we tried to drag him out here
VardaValar1: Can't have that. : )

VardaValar1: Web News:
VardaValar1: Eonwe has been working to put only the most updated gaming on the Games site, so please be sure yours is still included.
VardaValar1: Anything of any age has been wiped.
VardaValar1: Out of curiosity, what are you all doing on the side of this meeting? : )
VardaValar1: Some are gaming, some getting ready for work.
Fladrifv: uhm...
Fladrifv: ok ..playing overlord :S
Sarujil: watching baseball
VardaValar1: I just finished a pile of webwork
GilraenV: housework! :-\
VardaValar1: Eonwe says he's trying to get in but having trouble loading
GilraenV: oh dear
VardaValar1: In the Links page, we have an update for the novel "Isildur"
VardaValar1: The author emailed to tell me the new link
AriehnV: err Lotro .. craft hall with champion
VardaValar1: Cool. Hi to the folks in LotRO
VardaValar1: If lucky, I'll join them after the meeting. ; )
VardaValar1: Stories:
VardaValar1: Nightwing put up Ch. 46 "Koryon" for "To See a World". A work in progress.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: She says she is absolutely going to finish it no matter what. : )
VardaValar1: Yay! Eonwe made it in!
AriehnV: ((hi from Irmo ))
VardaValar1: Hi Irmo!
AriehnV: aiya to Eonwe :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya to all, and heya to Irmo.
VardaValar1: Folks in LotRO, please add Turumbar to your friend list. It's Turin-(V) who needs to be invited.
VardaValar1: Arveleg-(V) is doing something that more of us could try doing.
VardaValar1: While reading Children of Hurin, he jotted down notes, then made them into articles.
VardaValar1: We could do this during our full or partial re-reads of other books too.
VardaValar1: He sent articles for the Objects page:
VardaValar1: "Flame Imperishable or the Secret Fire"
VardaValar1: Aranrúth
VardaValar1: for Men:
VardaValar1: "Gaurwaith: Outlaws of Turin"
VardaValar1: some of the individual outlaws (we could use more):
VardaValar1: Algund
VardaValar1: Andróg
VardaValar1: Orleg
VardaValar1: Ulrad
VardaValar1: and the Man who was leader before Turin:
VardaValar1: Forweg
VardaValar1: Other humans from Turin's story:
VardaValar1: Larnach
VardaValar1: Sador
VardaValar1: and Turin's sister:
VardaValar1: "Urwen or Lalaith
VardaValar1: that is the younger sister, of course.
VardaValar1: Under Dwarves, he made one new article:
VardaValar1: "Gamil Zirak"
VardaValar1: Just before the meeting, these articles for Places went online:
VardaValar1: Bar-en-Nibin-noeg
VardaValar1: That's the House of Ransom, as Mim called his home after Turin took it over
VardaValar1: Cabed-en-Aras
VardaValar1: Celebros
VardaValar1: and last
VardaValar1: Crossings of Teiglin
VardaValar1: So if any of those are unfamiliar to you, you might want to click a link and take a peek. : )
VardaValar1: Eonwe has web news. Go ahead!
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.
Eonwe Valar: The Sortable table for LotRo is now u-to-date as of earlier this week.
Eonwe Valar: That means it includes Arien's characters :}
Eonwe Valar: Plus, everyone should have info for their characters, since LotRO shows everything from race to profession.
Eonwe Valar: Only stuff that should still say "Unknown" are characters' professions not chosen yet.
Eonwe Valar: That's all.
Eonwe Valar: Make sure I've got your characters for LotRo listed correctly, by the way.
VardaValar1: Thank you, Eonwe
VardaValar1: In news just in the email, Lindir-(V) just pulled out of the LotRO kinship.
VardaValar1: He says:
VardaValar1: The interactions I have had with members of Valar Guild have by and large been very positive, but, alas, have been too few and far between.
VardaValar1: I am a very active player, and need to be a member of kinship where other members are as active, or nearly so, as I.
VardaValar1: Ok his timing was bad.
VardaValar1: Irmo and a number of the others come in earlier than Lindir
Eonwe Valar: That is a shame.
AriehnV: I can understand him though
VardaValar1: Our main activity was ahead of his time.
VardaValar1: Aye. We all do. No one blames him, but it means we lost an active player.
AriehnV: he just was in and went , so I am a bit stunned
AriehnV: but .. well
VardaValar1: Did you at least get to say hi?
AriehnV: he just said that he was leaving and that he had a good time and that was it
AriehnV: waited for no reaction
VardaValar1: Guess it wasn't that good a time, heh.
VardaValar1: Ok, thank you, Arien. Can't win them all. [Note: Lindir only pulled out of the LotRO branch, remaining in the overall guild.]

VardaValar1: Gaming reports:
VardaValar1: What games not WoW or LotRO have you folks played this last week?
VardaValar1: Fladrif is playing Overlord, Arien is in LotRO...
AriehnV: and here I am listening :-)
VardaValar1: Hiya : )
Eonwe Valar: I played some BFME2, single-player.
VardaValar1: On to WoW reports
VardaValar1: Arien, do you have one for Argent Dawn, and did you folks ever decide on a special day for it?
AriehnV: there is a small report :-)
AriehnV: we did decide on thursday, yes , but it seems not to be that popular since the people concerned are always busy with something else when i am waiting for them
AriehnV: but never mind .. Well , Failivrin went hunting southsea pirates with Caradhron in Tanaris this last Tuesday
AriehnV: since she has the strength and skills of a hunter , plus that of Nightshadow , her Elder Shadowmaw :-). He is a skilled wizard, even if he lacks in strength
AriehnV: but both together made short work of the brigands and collected the desired hats. Unfortunately Valandil had connection problems so he never was able to finish.
VardaValar1: Glad to hear he's still playing : )
AriehnV: But the hunteress is still waiting in the pirates cove entrance for him , so she is there , when he needs her skills.
AriehnV: Oh yes, he is :-) even though very busy and its hard to find common online times
AriehnV: but we do fellow on and off
AriehnV: Thus endeth my report by the way
VardaValar1: Thank you, Arien : )
VardaValar1: For WoW Uldaman Horde server's Wednesday night run:
VardaValar1: Sauron and Varda, then Varda and Elwing, partied in the Barrens knocking off strings of quests.
VardaValar1: Eowyn brought a new character into our Horde guild.
VardaValar1: Everyone leveled at least once.
VardaValar1: Eonwe, did you have a WoW Lothar Alliance report?
Eonwe Valar: Yes I do.
Eonwe Valar: This week's Friday questing began in Arathi highlands with Eonwë's Priest joining Eowyn's and Fangorn's Shaman.
Eonwe Valar: We were also joined by Turin's mage, Dracxil's Warlock Wymor, and Varda in and out of the group as lower group members came and went.
Eonwe Valar: We completed the Stromgarde quests to kill Marez Cowl, Otto, and Falconcrest, and to gather the badges.
Eonwe Valar: Afterwards, we completed the Myzrael quest line.
Eonwe Valar: Elwing joined us at the beginning of the Myzrael quest line, and afterwards we went back to Stromgarde for her as well.
Eonwe Valar: After this, most of the group called it a night, except for myself and Elwing.
Eonwe Valar: Pardon, Turin was on in the GUild channel, joining us in chat.
Eonwe Valar: Sauron came in, and Sauron's Warlock and my Eonwë's Paladin guided Elwing through Maraudon.
Eonwe Valar: (scratch "my")
Eonwe Valar: After that, the three of us called it a night.
Eonwe Valar: Thus ends my report.
AriehnV: I have a wee question , Eonwe
AriehnV: it is on horde side though
Eonwe Valar: ok
Eonwe Valar: Is it quest report related?
AriehnV: no
Eonwe Valar: Is it something that can be asked in a side window while Varda continues to meeting?
VardaValar1: She did
VardaValar1: I suggested asking the group
Eonwe Valar: Ah, ok.
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead then.
AriehnV: aye , it concerns a lvl 28 ish quest in Thousand needles
AriehnV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Arien crashed
VardaValar1: but here is her question:
VardaValar1: this remote control panel for the wee robot that the guy at whitereach wants my shammy to use to nick some moonwell water. .. do you know by any chance where it is?
VardaValar1: She is level 28.
VardaValar1: I assume she has to go into Night Elf country.
VardaValar1: Anyway, Lungorthin no longer has time to handle our Book List and Book Reviews page for the Tolkien Site.
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: If any of you would like to volunteer to take it over, please let me know, or I'll be doing it again.
VardaValar1: Hiya Arien.
AriehnV: sorry nework hanger
VardaValar1: Our best guess is to run into Night Elf country. Re-read the quest and hope it gives a better clue. : )
VardaValar1: Way it goes.
AriehnV: well he wants me to use a robot construct he has built
AriehnV: but he has hidden the remote control in some bushes near Thalamar .. so i wonder which bushes he means
AriehnV: but i can search around a bit myself so no worries , please do continue
sauronjag has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Lungorthin : )
sauronjag: Hi :-)
VardaValar1: We are about to switch over to Tolkien. Well-timed. : )

VardaValar1: Tolkien!
VardaValar1: Does anyone have a subject in mind before I bring one in?
VardaValar1: Dwarves in Tolkien
VardaValar1: Compared to the other races, we don't get to know very many of them very well.
VardaValar1: But of those we do meet, what impressions do they leave us of Dwarves?
VardaValar1: Lungorthin had to go back to yardwork, but hopes to be able to scroll and see what we said.
VardaValar1: The Petty-dwarves seem very different from the larger dwarves that we're more familiar with.
VardaValar1: They seem to have died out with Mim's sons.
VardaValar1: We know a little of Thorin's Company.
Eonwe Valar: They seem to be the group hunted by the Sindar when Dwarves first awoke.
VardaValar1: They show a lot of variety of person
Eonwe Valar: They = Petty Dwarves.
VardaValar1: That could explain their lack of numbers and why Mim hated Beleg, a Sinda, so much.
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Interesting that the Sindar could not tell they were not creatures created by Morgoth.
VardaValar1: They did not look like Firstborn or the Edain aftercomers.
VardaValar1: With Mim's temperament, maybe they had cause?
VardaValar1: Early on, JRRT planned for dwarves to be evil.
VardaValar1: That might be some of the fallout.
Eonwe Valar: Aye
VardaValar1: Perhaps the Petty-dwarves were the unpleasant members of the race and were weeded out, leaving such greats as Azaghal.
VardaValar1: When Azaghal fell, after driving Glaurung and his beasts from the battle,
VardaValar1: the other dwarves took him out as in a funeral, ignoring the rest of the battle.
VardaValar1: That was the end of it as far as they were concerned.
VardaValar1: Everyone else just got out of their way
Eonwe Valar: Smart of them.
VardaValar1: Thorin also showed this powerful single-mindedness.
VardaValar1: Like boulders, they had a lot of inertia whether to sit in one place or to do something.
VardaValar1: I think Gimli would have been very interesting in Mordor.
VardaValar1: He may well have been more capable of handling the environment than any other in the Fellowship.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, they were created by Aulë to resist any sort of domination. Tends to make them stubborn too, heh.
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: Aule had no greed in him, yet the love of gold was very strong in Dwarves
VardaValar1: He did not build it into them
VardaValar1: The rings given by Sauron increased this interest in gold to a possibly dangerous level.
VardaValar1: One of the things Galadriel said about Gimli was that he would have much gold but it would have no power over him.
Eonwe Valar: Gold was about the most precious metal short of mithril.
VardaValar1: The mithril made them go too far, delve too deep.
Eonwe Valar: That Aulë made it so was likely enough to instill that love of it into the Dwarves.
VardaValar1: The dwarves saw few pearls since those were in water, trading with the elves to get them.
VardaValar1: Nimphelos, a great pearl, was a major treasure to them.
VardaValar1: The Arkenstone, heart of the mountain, a great diamond, was another great treasure to them.
Eonwe Valar: So, did their attitude towards payment for their works come naturally, or was it the result of bad dealings they never forgot and took out on all future "customers?"
VardaValar1: The Glittering Caves were a treasure that they would only work with the greatest care, a cautious tap here and there to open up new areas or improve lighting.
Eonwe Valar: They seem to be able to refrain from pulling all the precious stuff out of the ground and throwing it in a pile, so they're not as bad as dragons.
Eonwe Valar: Glittering Caves being a good example of that.
VardaValar1: The attitude towards precious things of the earth had to start naturally, but Morgoth and Sauron would play on it to bend them to their will.
VardaValar1: Aye, piles weren't their thing. : )
VardaValar1: They seemed to want to make things, like the Great Smith, with it.
VardaValar1: Their eventual fate is supposed to be to return to Aule/Mahal and help with the building of the new, perfect Arda.
VardaValar1: So this desire to create beautiful things from the earth is a shadow of their future.
VardaValar1: The twisting for excessive love of a particular thing was not part of their proper nature
VardaValar1: Perhaps the Petty-dwarves were called that not just for their size, but their attitude. One twisted in that fashion
Eonwe Valar: Skimming Sil as we talk, caught this passage that I haven't seen in a while:
Eonwe Valar: "For Mim came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east, and long before the return of Morgoth they wandered westward into Beleriand;"
Eonwe Valar: "But they became diminished in stature and in smith-craft, and they took to lives of stealth, walking with bowed shoulders furtive steps.
Eonwe Valar: Seems of all the Dwarf-groups, they actually hate the Noldor.
Eonwe Valar: This is all in "Of Turin Turambar" of course. Same part that tells they were hunted.
VardaValar1: Interesting since most Dwarves were more friendly with the Noldor since they also enjoyed crafting.
Eonwe Valar: So they ewren't always the way we see Mim and his sons.
Eonwe Valar: The Petty-Dwarves claim the Noldor stole their lands and their homes.
VardaValar1: They were banished from the great dwarf cities, not for sweetness and light
VardaValar1: Maybe they expected Beleriand to be empty and it should have been theirs?
Eonwe Valar: Interesting perhaps if the great caves like Nargothrond and Menegroth were not "natural" in the strick sense, but if there were
Eonwe Valar: enough Pety-Dwarves at the beginning to actually have lived there, or at least to have scouted the areas
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Dwarves aided in the making of both those places, as I recollect.
Eonwe Valar: The Dwarves of Belegost (I believe), who did business with Thingol, were the ones who told him of Menegroth, so knowledge of the area was had by Dwarves.
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien : ) Discussing the nature of dwarves.
AriehnV: .((sorry folks network connaction problems))
VardaValar1: ouch
Eonwe Valar: "great Dwarf-cities of the east" seems to imply Khazad-Dum and further east.
Eonwe Valar: Belegost and Nargothrond were on the edge of Beleriand in the Blue Mountains, which would've been Beleriand's eastern border. All that would be "The west" at the time.
VardaValar1: True
Eonwe Valar: aha, I should've just read on..
VardaValar1: So if the petty dwarves went west to seek their fortunes in \remembered caves, they found elves in them.
VardaValar1: but the elves had dwarven aid in the making.
Eonwe Valar: If I'm reading this right, Nargothrond was discovered and its delving began with them.
Sarujil: true
Eonwe Valar: ok, I'm reading it right.
VardaValar1: That does ring a bell : )
Eonwe Valar: Also at Amon Rudh.
Eonwe Valar: They justed couldn't kick off and keep alive their own Dwarf branch.
VardaValar1: Suppose they squabbled too much among themselves? Or wouldn't put out the effort needed?
Eonwe Valar: "Mim was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves..." makes one wonder how old that is.
Sarujil: it says the elves hunted them
VardaValar1: Aye, Anc
VardaValar1: We were wondering why they did that
VardaValar1: Maybe pilfering?
Eonwe Valar: I would say aside from the natural problems Dwarves have, the Elves hunting them didn't help. The Dwarves as far as I recall seem more or less civilized amongst themselves.
Sarujil: just says they didnt know what the dwarves were
VardaValar1: So they shot them just because they were different? oboy
VardaValar1: Too many of Morgoth's weird horrors running around to feel trusting, maybe.
Eonwe Valar: Entire Dwarf kingdoms came to eachothers' aid in times of war, and in some battles, like the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, all seven houses got together. Try getting all the Elf houses to do that.
VardaValar1: They did try as in the siege of Angband
Eonwe Valar: The Noldor and Sindar joined. No Avari.
VardaValar1: I see what you mean. The Refusers were always refusing. : )
Sarujil: there was always some group of elves that didnt join up for some reason or another
VardaValar1: The Avari seemed to have died out, of the stories at least.
Eonwe Valar: The Elves living in Beleriand, where Morgoth's primary offensive was held, were fighting Morgoth. No other Elves were involved. For Dwarves, it didn't matter where.
VardaValar1: Didn't most elves live in Beleriand?
Eonwe Valar: Most who had begun the journey and not crossed the sea, yes.
Sarujil: most eventually did, but there were some that never crossed the mountains
Eonwe Valar: Though Teleri dropped off all along the way.
VardaValar1: Aye
Eonwe Valar: The Nandor lived near Doriath, and moved under the Girdle of Melian after the death of their lord.
Eonwe Valar: They're where the Elves of Mirkwood get their bad habit of being poorly armored :}
VardaValar1: Guerrilla forces are usually that way. Doesn't translate well into troop style combat.
Eonwe Valar: Mirkwood/Greenwood stretching all through that forest had contingents of Elves living there before Thranduil's father founded his kingdom.
VardaValar1: So the dwarves had a system for communicating their danger and for transportation to reach the ones in trouble.
Eonwe Valar: Dwarves had representatives who met regularly in Mount Gundabad up until it was taken by the Orcs during the Third Age.
VardaValar1: So they felt more like a cohesive unit, while the elves were scattered.
Eonwe Valar: But aye, they seem to have sent messengers just like any other kingdom, perhaps relying on birds as well.
VardaValar1: The dwarves weren't required to go on a long march through strange country right after coming to life, so they could be together longer.
VardaValar1: That could have helped them feel more like one group.
Eonwe Valar: Well, in fairness to the Elves, things didn't exactly get off to a great start between the Noldor and the Sindar.
Eonwe Valar: The Dwarf fathers were scattered across Middle-Earth, though.
VardaValar1: Kinslaying is not good for relations, aye.
Eonwe Valar: Maedhros did try to get the leaders/representatives of the Elf kingdoms together for council and for celebration to build stronger ties. It just didn't work well.
VardaValar1: I wonder how well the dwarf-fathers remembered each other from the time of Aule
Eonwe Valar: Maybe everything. All Eru did was give them life.
Eonwe Valar: Eru said he was not going to change a thing.
VardaValar1: So they might have wanted to find each other again
VardaValar1: They knew they were not alone
Eonwe Valar: Might include memories there. Elves at least could not remember how they got there.
VardaValar1: They only knew they awoke by Lake Cuivienen under the stars together.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Pallando Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Pallando!
Pallando Valar: Aiya!
Eonwe Valar: In BoLT at least, when Manwë questions them as to where they came from, the Elf Representativ es (Ingwë, Finwë, Elwë in the Sil) said there was a hae over that part of their memory, or something similar if memory serves.
VardaValar1: We were just discussing the nature of the Dwarves, Pallando. : )
VardaValar1: haze
VardaValar1: Eru kept some secrets from the Valar that way
Eonwe Valar: haze, aye. Guess I hit the z too fast.
VardaValar1: Aye, happens
Eonwe Valar: Heya Pallando :}
Eonwe Valar: I recall reading that Dwarves had the greatest smithing skill, surpassing even Noldor.
VardaValar1: And they taught the Sindar to make weapons, as the elves had been peaceful
Eonwe Valar: And I still can't find that spot where I read there was another group of Elves that had some smithing skill even the Noldor did not have.
Eonwe Valar: The Noldor would seem to sound "cool" to someone until they see all these "surpassing even the Noldor" comments peppered in several books :}
Pallando Valar: "The Noldor are the best!" "Except for here, and here, and here, and here..."
VardaValar1: The Noldor in general seem to surpass most others except for individual spots.
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: The Dwarves warned Thingol of danger from the north
VardaValar1: Orcs were a small number, mostly scouts, of that lot of monsters
VardaValar1: When they started attacking Beleriand, Thingol went to the Dwarves for weapons and armor.
VardaValar1: The Dwarves taught the Sindar at that time, and they had plenty of incentive to learn.
VardaValar1: After they drove off Morgoth's creatures, Thingol figured more attacks would come, so he had the equipment stored.
Eonwe Valar: "The gems of the Noldor they (the Dwarves) praised above all other wealth." :}
VardaValar1: It did not rust, remaining bright.

VardaValar1: Folks, I hear barbecue calling my name. : ) The potato salad chimes in with come to me.
Eonwe Valar: Better go see what they want then :}
VardaValar1: I intend to knock someone off the LotRO computer afterwards, in case any would like to join me there. : )
VardaValar1: Ok : )
VardaValar1: Namarie for now!
Eonwe Valar (7:13:47 PM):    I think it's safe to call the meeting here :}
Eonwe Valar (7:13:53 PM):    Take care Varda :}
Eonwe Valar (7:14:32 PM):    In case you all missed it, that means it's Aftermeeting :} Feel free to go about your business :}
AriehnV (7:16:18 PM):    am just writing the email with the updated gaming info Eonwe so i will have to go afterwards