Valar Guild

January 27, 2013 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (7)
    Ariehn V, ArPharazonV, EonweValar, fladrifv, Gilraen-(V)/Iryenth, GwaihirValar, VardaValar1 (presiding)

Meeting begins
    Poetry from Hoegard Harfoot
    misc. including flashgame links, BroodWar.

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
ArPharazonV: Arien has connection troubles, might not make it in.
VardaValar1: Aiya
VardaValar1: Thanks. Maybe we can relay to her.
ArPharazonV: I mean her entire internet seems to be troubled.
VardaValar1: uh oh
VardaValar1: I hope her isp or local comp repair place can help.
ArPharazonV: So she's just watching Return of the King instead and might return after. This was a few hours ago.
VardaValar1: A good choice of things to do. ^^
VardaValar1: Might be nearly done with the movie by now.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: So yeah, it seems the mechanic didn't find anything. So it's a bit tricky.
Iryenth has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya folks!
VardaValar1: Aiya!
Eonwe Valar: Heya all.
VardaValar1: Arien is having connection problems, watching Return of the King meanwhile. Proves she has great taste. :-)
VardaValar1: I tried to enter LotRO just now to mention the meeting is starting as some requested but it isn't letting me in. Their website is down for maintenance (or was a while ago).
VardaValar1: Ok, LotROites, you've been thought of at least. : )

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: Time to get that Membership page redone for 2013. Gets tricky to tell who to include and who not to, but working on it.
VardaValar1: All of you are definitely in!
VardaValar1: Any other Membership news?

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: We have poetry put online today.
VardaValar1: Hoegard Harfoot gave us a collection from years of writing.
VardaValar1: Also, Hoegard made Lord of the Rings Online poetry.
ArPharazonV: He'd better slow down or there'll be nothing to surprise us with later!
VardaValar1: hehehe
VardaValar1: Our Tolkien Site of course doesn't take gaming poetry, but
VardaValar1: I put it up separately, because it's just fun.
VardaValar1: /duck
VardaValar1: It can be reached from Hoegard's regular poetry site as a link.
VardaValar1: Would folks like the poems listed here or just check it on the News or Poetry News?
VardaValar1: Each part of the Tolkien Site has it's own specialty news. The main News collects them all in one place.
Eonwe Valar: List it here, if it's not too long a list.
VardaValar1: ok
VardaValar1: I put it all on a Notepad so it's easy enough.
VardaValar1: "Mushrooms in the Pie"
VardaValar1: "Oathbound"
VardaValar1: "The Dwarf Smith's Gift"
VardaValar1: "Brave and Bold"
VardaValar1: "All Battles End"
VardaValar1: If you'd like to see the LotRO poetry, that can be given the same way.
fladrifv has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Fladrif :-)
ArPharazonV: Just comparing the first two you can immediately tell the variation of atmosphere he puts in his poems.
VardaValar1: Aye. :-)
fladrifv: Aiya from a very almost treeish ent
ArPharazonV: Aiya Fladrif!
VardaValar1: Hey tired one. :-)
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: aiya all :-) (wipes tear out of her eyes)
VardaValar1: Arien!
VardaValar1: You made it in. : )
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1: *hands over a lacy pocket handkerchief*
VardaValar1: We heard your internet was treating you shabbily.
AriehnV: ooch aye ... just probably will jump in and out just as all day
AriehnV: it was horrible ..every ten mins , sometimes half an hour , sometimes ten
AriehnV: sometimes five
VardaValar1: Maybe they can get it fixed during the regular work week coming up.
AriehnV: they had an engineer here on wednesday but they found nothing
AriehnV: they reset the fork on their side whatever that is
AriehnV: that might make it a bit jumpy , bruce said
AriehnV: are you all just silent or am i dc again?
VardaValar1: Listening to you.
ArPharazonV: Yes, letting you tell the story :-)
VardaValar1: Wondering what a fork is.
AriehnV: something on their end where they direct various connection outlets or something .. like a telephone witchboard maybe
AriehnV: err switchboard not witchboard (blush
VardaValar1: I like witchboard. : )
AriehnV: above all we had also a second of a power cut at around five o clock
AriehnV: light flickered and wooosh we sat in the dark
VardaValar1: heh, we had to put in batteries for all our comps because we're on the end of the power line, plus the repairs after Hurricane Katrina might be held together with chewing gum.
VardaValar1: We sympathize.
VardaValar1: *hands over some of our big candles*
VardaValar1: Good thing you have plenty of sunlight.
ArPharazonV: Not at this time of day.
VardaValar1: You're the sun. : ) Or at least the steerslady.
ArPharazonV: Ah, true, that she is.
VardaValar1: Got the sun in the parking garage?
ArPharazonV: Missed the joke.
AriehnV: hehe *chuckles* wish i was a self supplier really .. would love to power this thing with self provided sunlight
VardaValar1: Jokes that sneak up on you.
VardaValar1: Solar powered computer, with battery storage!
VardaValar1: Any other Membership or Web news?
AriehnV: hehee and internet connection by the photons used to power it
VardaValar1: There's talk of using some sort of light connections; who knows? : )
VardaValar1: Mostly inside the comp though.

VardaValar1: On to Gaming:
VardaValar1: Which games have we been playing this last week?
AriehnV: grins membrship jumping in ... i am on holiday this week and b' day coming up
VardaValar1: Diablo 3 with Bilbo and me, a pair of Barbarians destroying everything in sight.
VardaValar1: ohh, nice Arien!
ArPharazonV: Few more flashgames, working on a few easier kongregate badges.. as for big games, I reinstalled and played a bit of several games again:
AriehnV: i confess myself guilty playing a game in facebook my sister sent me an invite to
AriehnV: a disney "Ghosts of Mistwood" it is called
VardaValar1: Finarfin leads a Facebook guild of about 100 people in War Commander. Maybe you can join up with him?
VardaValar1: (although we've lured him to the LotROside too)
AriehnV: hehe :-) which character is he?
ArPharazonV: Guild Wars gave me no trouble, Total Annihilation was allright, but its expansion, and the Total Annihilation: Kingdoms game and expansion, were kind of troubling. But it turned out I could mostly just move the files which I had backed up from my old pc, and they seem to work ok. If I ever lose every version I have of those files, getting the games back might be a lot trickier.
VardaValar1: I don't know. I'll ask. He plays Gilothalion in LotRO.
ArPharazonV: Also, I've installed Warcraft 1 and Warcraft 2 battlenet version, which includes expansion :-) Now that's nostalgia for me.
VardaValar1: If it was a DVD installation, it should have gone well. If internet download, might let them know there's a problem.
VardaValar1: Fun. : )
ArPharazonV: It's from cd.
ArPharazonV: The setup files just... stop working after a few seconds.
AriehnV: i ve got reign of chaos insatlled as well
ArPharazonV: Yes, I'm sure Warcraft 3 will be added to the list in the following week :-)
AriehnV: and played a bit since its the only game i can play without internet connection
ArPharazonV: Campaign?
VardaValar1: StarCraft/BroodWar works when our internet is out.
AriehnV: aye arthas versus Kel Thuzad ^^
AriehnV: am just before Andorhal now tho
VardaValar1: (How can Finarfin recognize you?)
AriehnV: my character in the mistwood thing is called Arien surprise surprise
VardaValar1: Good name!
ArPharazonV: Good to recognize you by :-)
AriehnV: and best he ll contact me in game or send me a lotro mail and i give him my facebook adress
VardaValar1: He's in War Commander, though.
VardaValar1: Aye, you can meet up with him in LotRO.
AriehnV: or i find him maybe if i find that game
VardaValar1: heh, forget Facebook and both of you play LotRO. /duck
AriehnV has left the room.
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Anyway, finally made it into LotRO. Tulkas and Gildor say hi. : )
ArPharazonV: Hi!
AriehnV: say hi back
VardaValar1: and welcome back, Arien. : )
AriehnV: och cheers

VardaValar1: WoW:
VardaValar1: Eonwe, you had some mentions?
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: The Lunar Festival starts this week.
ArPharazonV: Ah, we get to fight the big doggy again.
ArPharazonV: I wonder if he's been lvl 90'd.
Eonwe Valar: You can begin the stuff for it right outside the Stormwind gates, or in any other capital city if memory serves.
VardaValar1: Convenient
Eonwe Valar: Darkmoon Faire is next week. Don't miss your chance to work for pets, mounts, heirloom items, get a rep/exp boost for dailies, get an easy +5 skill points to a profession, and more.
Eonwe Valar: That's it from me.
VardaValar1: That's lots, thanks, Eonwe!
AriehnV has left the room.

GwaihirValar: I've been on a JRPG kick personally
ArPharazonV: What does the J stand for?
VardaValar1: and Eonwe says (before he left for a minute) the Opening cinematic for Sctarcraft 2: Heart of the Swarm is available.
GwaihirValar: Japanese
ArPharazonV: Ahh.
GwaihirValar: Persona 4 Golden for the vita my wife got me for Christmas and Ni No Kuni are both fantastic
VardaValar1: Gimli-V is very interested in all things Japanese. He will want to read what you're saying.
VardaValar1: (Wife being Gilraen/Iryent :-)
VardaValar1: h

ArPharazonV: Right, have a SC2 cinematic:
GwaihirValar: The sc2 cinematic is fantastic
VardaValar1: Thanks Phar
GwaihirValar: watch near the start for a gnome with pigtails
GwaihirValar: and if you zoom in on the blizzard logo you can find a rather unique little treat if you pause at just the right time
VardaValar1: My gnome has white hair with pigtails.
ArPharazonV: Ah, there's the gnome, thanks, hadn't noticed it :-)
VardaValar1: Neat : )
ArPharazonV: I just love the different Zerg in that cinematic. They look so.. realistic.
VardaValar1: What is that symbol handing off the rear-view mirror at the beginning? Seems familiar.
VardaValar1: *hanging
ArPharazonV: You mean the gnome? :-)
GwaihirValar: that's the gnome
GwaihirValar: with pigtails :-)
VardaValar1: So that's the gnome. Was looking for a gnome in the crowd, heh. Thanks!
GwaihirValar: I'm pretty sure its meant to be parvink from the tcg
GwaihirValar: I like how the whole cinematic is just Kerrigan's power fantasy lol
VardaValar1: What Kerrigan wants...
GwaihirValar: yep
VardaValar1: Get that gal a computer game, quick!
ArPharazonV: I'm sure she'd do well in an RTS.
VardaValar1: hehe

VardaValar1: LotRO:
VardaValar1: Most are running Barad Guldur, or the three mans, or running alts.
VardaValar1: We have a lot of kins that we can run with now to fill in groups.
VardaValar1: Some are still doing Hytbold.
VardaValar1: on to

VardaValar1: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: One of those poems mention that the dwarves don't sell their weapons and armor. Is there any truth to that?
Eonwe Valar: I seem to remember Thingol's armouries having Dwarf craft in them,...
ArPharazonV: Well that didn't end well.
ArPharazonV: But they could be trading with Dale.
VardaValar1: The dwarves helped the Sindarins equip versus the orcs in the early days.
Eonwe Valar: I also recall from HoME part of the trade with the Men they lived near was in outfitting them militarily. A few Men on horse could skirmish across a wider field and weaken an incoming enemy better than a bunch of Dwarves running across that same field at them.
VardaValar1: Sounds like a good symbiosis. We'll equip you, you go out in harm's way and save us all.
VardaValar1: But it wasn't free or gifted, was it?
VardaValar1: There was trade between elves and dwarves in Eregion: Moria and Hollin
Eonwe Valar: Quote from my Encyclopedia article on Dwarves, in the section drawn from HoME 11:
Eonwe Valar: The Men became the chief providers of food, herdsmen, shepherds, and land-tillers, and the Dwarves were the builders, roadmakers, miners, crafters, armorers and weaponsmiths. This arrangement became typical of dealings between Men and Dwarves, and left the Dwarves free to refine their arts, especially in metallurgy.
VardaValar1: So an excellent trade relationship.
Eonwe Valar: This alliance of Dwarves and Men commanded great strength, swift attack, and well-protected defense. There was great respect and esteem between the two races, and sometimes even warm friendship. Men acted as scouts to watch for attacks or roving bands, and Dwarves supplied the arms, since Men had tamed horses, and as Note 29 says, “No Dwarf would ever mount a horse willingly, nor did any ever harbour animals, not even dogs.”
VardaValar1: Not even dogs. Interesting.
ArPharazonV: No pets? I wonder how they got rid of rats.
Eonwe Valar: Throw a hammer at it, heh.
ArPharazonV: Anyway, not selling your weapons and armor might be a metaphor; it could mean that you don't do mercenary work, you don't fight for anyone just for gold.
VardaValar1: Rat for lunch? : )
VardaValar1: That's a thought, Phar. Poetic.
VardaValar1: They were keen on gold, a weakness acted on by the rings from Sauron. One of the great things about Gimli after the War of the Ring was that much gold went through his hands but had no power over him.
VardaValar1: Sauron could find little weakness in the dwarves to exploit.
VardaValar1: Still, gold was enough to cause tons of problems.
VardaValar1: Since they were so fond of gold, it seemed as if they would not be keen on giving things as gifts if they could sell them, so I wondered about the comment. Phar's explanation sounds good. : )
VardaValar1: Richly are bought crafts dwarf smiths have wroughtThough never are they sold
VardaValar1: Anyway, it's not as if it were by JRRT for canon.
GwaihirValar: Well, they were equally fond of their own creations though... so I imagine they would have had trouble parting with such things even for the gold they also loved.
VardaValar1: Good point
VardaValar1: maybe for mithril, but they had a lock on raw mithril. Mithril trade objects?
Eonwe Valar: On the other hand, Let's not forget how Gimli described the ways Dwarves would care for the caves of Aglarond.
Eonwe Valar: Dwarves aren't all about chopping stuff up and selling it off. They can appreciate the beauty of nature as well.
VardaValar1: Just a nervous, careful chip after much study, like sculpture.
Eonwe Valar: And that would be an entire day's work.
VardaValar1: A stalactite doesn't grow back like re-planting a tree, at least not until after many lifetimes if ever.
VardaValar1: Makes a different attitude.
ArPharazonV: too bad they didn't have photographs
VardaValar1: Make a goofed chip on it and others can see it for centuries.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: I wonder what kind of pictures the dwarves made? Etched metal? Certainly stone reliefs, statues.
ArPharazonV: The doors of Moria were nicely decorated, even if only visible under certain conditions.
ArPharazonV: Or was that elf-craft?
VardaValar1: It was a combined effort
VardaValar1: Still, if they worked together on that, both sides may have learned to do it independently afterwards. Oops, except for the trade secrets.
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Sunshine :-)
AriehnV: bah sunshine is getting quite thundering i can tell ya
AriehnV: i feel so helpless
VardaValar1: It's just a waiting game.
AriehnV: silly game
VardaValar1: Then you pounce.
AriehnV: any Tolkien discussion?
VardaValar1: It was on the way Dwarves sold their weapons and armour, if they did.
VardaValar1: Seemed like they tended to operate with groups of men or elves with whom they were friendly, not so much individual action.
AriehnV: They certainly did sell their skills or made them if requested and paid i think .. the hobbit suggests as much
VardaValar1: Kind of a barter system too, maybe.
VardaValar1: Aye, that's true. Thorin for instance, crafting for pay.
ArPharazonV: Selling their skills, that works.
ArPharazonV: Your mats, my crafting, just like WoW.
VardaValar1: There you go. : )
AriehnV: It was the only way for them to survivfe I guess and gather some gold for their mission
VardaValar1: Sure made that pile of gold in Moria look good.
AriehnV: which pile of gold?
VardaValar1: The one under Smaug
VardaValar1: er, Erebor
AriehnV: not in MOria :-P
VardaValar1: /smackhead
AriehnV: hehe thats what confused me :-)
ArPharazonV: Moria had a pile of mithril.
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: Though maybe scattered around a bit more.
VardaValar1: Tell that Balrog to quit shuffling his feet!
AriehnV: yah just wanted to say , the wealth of Moria didnt lay in gold , gems and silver
AriehnV: they used the mithril to craft weapons, armor, ithildin (that is moonletters) and normal runes on tablets ?
VardaValar1: a mail shirt for an elf prince. Have to wonder about why he was in enough danger to need that.
AriehnV: And if he was about Frodo's size .. what age he was
Eonwe Valar: Here's from my article on Elves:
ArPharazonV: Yes, what was the deal with that shirt again? How did it end up back in Erebor?
Eonwe Valar: "When Menegroth began storing weapons to defend itself from Melkor’s minions, Thingol had the aid of the Dwarves. Axes, spears, and swords were the weapons of choice in this case as well."
AriehnV: The Dragon might have nicked it from Menegroth
AriehnV: or Gundabad for that matter .. which lies closer to Erebor
VardaValar1: It was for a prince, so not Thingol's daughter Luthien.
VardaValar1: Dior? His sons?
AriehnV: are you sure it came from Menegroth?
Eonwe Valar: Pardon, my last sentence shouldn't be taken in context of the shirt.
Eonwe Valar: It should be taken in context of the original discussion.
Eonwe Valar: The mithril shirt could've been taken from Moria, something made that was never delivered before the Balrog cleared everyone out.
VardaValar1: Never delivered, that's a possibility.
ArPharazonV: Elf prince doesn't leave many options, depending on what age it's supposed to have been crafted in. It could've been made for a young Thranduil at the end of the Second Age, but how it got to Erebor.. yeah, it might've been never delivered.
VardaValar1: Power just went out at my house. Need Arien's sunshine.
Eonwe Valar: Perhaps something intended for an Elf of Eregion, who wouldn't be able to collect after Sauron destroyed the place.
ArPharazonV: It could even have been crafted in Erebor for Legolas, with the materials shipped over there, and never shipped out before Smaug came.
VardaValar1: Power's back.
AriehnV: true enough
AriehnV: hmm i like the thought
VardaValar1: An item being crafted but never sent would mean it was made just before Smaug took over, cutting down the possibilities.
VardaValar1: Doesn't seem likely that Smaug carried loot from other hoards to that one, does it?
VardaValar1: So it would be stuff that was in the hall at that time.
ArPharazonV: How would he? It's a dragon.
ArPharazonV: Carrying a giant basket in his talons?
VardaValar1: In his talons? Mouth?
VardaValar1: I like the idea of a basket, but it doesn't seem something ever mentioned. Still, they were supposed to be smart.
Eonwe Valar: I don't think a dragon carrying a giant basket would appear as dangerous as one without, hehe.
VardaValar1: He probably would not have felt comfortable about leaving his horde alone, however.
AriehnV: hmm Dragons tended to take over hoards from other dragons that were killed
Eonwe Valar: "Oh look, that dragon's going on a picnic!"
ArPharazonV: Can't just carry it loose, the coins'd drop between the claws.
VardaValar1: *drops bronze basket on a dwarf's head*
ArPharazonV: You'd be able to tell there was a dragon overhead by the rain of gold.
VardaValar1: Follow that dragon!
Eonwe Valar: "Oh look, that dragon's giving out gifts! Catch what you want!"
AriehnV: but since Erebor didnt have a drgon in before Smaug i favour the theory that it was to be sent just before Smaug turned up
VardaValar1: It sounds very reasonable, aye.
AriehnV: but the dwarves never got round it
VardaValar1: Sauron-(Valar) commented that maybe it was incomplete, one reason Thorin might be willing to part with it. But it could have been such a small thing that most wouldn't notice.
VardaValar1: I got the impression that it was in great shape though.
ArPharazonV: Ah. Slight malfunction, so could be pawned off to Bilbo cheaply.
ArPharazonV: Accidentally made too small for an Elf.
ArPharazonV: But perfect for a hobbit!
VardaValar1: Thorin wanted to look like a great giver of gifts, might have repaired it first if he saw some such embarrassment.
fladrifv has left the room.
VardaValar1: The elf outgrew it and they were going to have to let it out. : )
VardaValar1: Took too long making it. : )
Eonwe Valar: Bilbo had proved his worth by that time.
ArPharazonV: Or the elf sent it back after he outgrew it, and they were in the process of changing it when the dragon came.
VardaValar1: It might have been sent back for repairs or to be enlarged?
ArPharazonV: Exactly!
AriehnV: *excuse me sir .. my arms have grown too long.. can you add some more chain scales , if you would be so good?"
Eonwe Valar: And Thorin needed any man he could get. It would be unwise and unfriendly to reward Bilbo's efforts with substandard armaments.
Eonwe Valar: - to comment on the idea of a defect.
VardaValar1: There's a remark Thranduil makes about it, trying to locate.
VardaValar1: Agreed Eonwe
VardaValar1: Also an injury to Dwarven pride.
VardaValar1: People talk about Thranduil's greed, but he makes a remark like "Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold."
VardaValar1: Found the quote.
VardaValar1: It's interesting as it may have been worn by more than one elf-prince. So maybe it really was in for repairs.
AriehnV has left the room.
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Thranduil tells Bilbo, "You are more worthy to wear the armour of elf-princes than many that have looked more comely in it."
VardaValar1: Many?
VardaValar1: However, this may be a general reference to the idea of armour of elf-princes, rather than a specific one.
ArPharazonV: Right. That's one of the possibilities.
VardaValar1: JRRT has a lot of open-ended stuff just so we can play with the mythology. Argh sometimes. :-)
ArPharazonV: The most likely one, unless it was worn by many elf princes and still somehow made its way back to Erebor.
ArPharazonV: And there never were that many elf princes to begin with, I think? There might have been a few around in the second age.
VardaValar1: At that time, the only elf-prince was Legolas. Elladan and Elrohir were kind of the same station but Elrond refused to claim being High-king, so they were lords.
VardaValar1: Maybe Legolas had brothers. :-)
ArPharazonV: True, we've never told.
Eonwe Valar: Maybe there were some Avari further east?
AriehnV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: He might not even have been the heir, since he moved south after the War.
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Would they have been considered princes that could have such mithril armor?
ArPharazonV: Settled in Ithilien, I think?
Eonwe Valar: Depends on what they were paying for it, I'd think.
VardaValar1: Dior had two sons: Elured and Elurin, that didn't survive to adulthood. Brothers of Elwing.
AriehnV: so u think it could have been made for men with Elf blood in them maybe?
VardaValar1: Imrahil's bunch? I doubt it, really, since Thranduil is specific about elf-prince. Maybe.
AriehnV: aye true
VardaValar1: Thranduil would surely have known where something like that was, as it didn't seem to be a stolen item until Smaug took it.
VardaValar1: Although you could still be right, since Dior had the blood of three races.
VardaValar1: Maia, Eldar, Edain.
VardaValar1: He lived in Doriath, then later in Menegroth.
Eonwe Valar: Dior claimed the right to rule Menegroth, and some Sindar at least gathered to him.
VardaValar1: Aye, he tried to restore Menegroth, but the Feanorians attacked for the Silmaril. At least he managed to take out some of them. : )
VardaValar1: Celegorm, Curufin, Caranthir.
Eonwe Valar: *right to rule Doriath.
VardaValar1: What other young elf princes were in Middle-earth? Dior, Elured, Elurin, Legolas. Any others born there?
AriehnV: Werent there a couple that sided at least for a while with Thorins Lot? i think the younger sons .. the twins (i forgot their names ) and someone else
ArPharazonV: Thranduil must've been young ones.
ArPharazonV: *once.
VardaValar1: Aye, Thranduil. He might have worn it himself. : )
VardaValar1: His father was Oropher, also a potential wearer?
Eonwe Valar: "Prince" may not even be referring to our typical understanding as "son of a king."
ArPharazonV: Well sure, he must've been young too.
Eonwe Valar: Didn't Aragorn make Faramir "Prince of Ithilien"?
VardaValar1: Yes, Aragorn made Faramir Prince of Ithilien.
Eonwe Valar: So an older understanding more fitting the direct meaning of the word is probably in order.
ArPharazonV: Well that broadens the scope a bit, if it might also apply to noble families. Though they might have to be lord over some land (like Ithilien) to be named prince.
VardaValar1: Prine Imrahil too.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Prince Imrahil.
AriehnV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Prince. (Dropping letters all over the floor tonight.)
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Those princes were under a High King.
Eonwe Valar: Have Aulë attach some magnets so you can keep them on the refrigerator? :}
VardaValar1: *scoops them off the fridge*
ArPharazonV: is High King more special than a normal King? :-)
AriehnV: what did you say before that? i just got disconnected
VardaValar1: Yes. A High King is king over other kings.
ArPharazonV: So which other Kings are we talking about here? Because if Imrahil's father was a sub-king, it might explain the Prince
VardaValar1: That's what's odd. It sounds as if those who would have been called kings were called princes.
ArPharazonV: We have a High King ruling over Princes.
VardaValar1: They ruled princedoms, rather than kingdoms.
VardaValar1: Aye.
ArPharazonV: Maybe it should've been a High Prince.
VardaValar1: Yet there were also lords.
VardaValar1: hehe - seems like it.
VardaValar1: Tolkien had a strong grasp of history. Be interesting to see where he got the naming system.
Eonwe Valar: Well, part of it would like come from his own understanding of British history.
Eonwe Valar: *like = likely
VardaValar1: And he was very knowlegeable of things like how the folk of the time of Beowulf were organized.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: For fun:
Eonwe Valar:
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Eonwe Valar: Maybe some fun in here too:
Eonwe Valar: under characteristics.
Eonwe Valar: Prince is sometimes used as a generic term to describe any monarch regardless of title, especially in older texts.
Eonwe Valar: From the first paragrpah, last sentence.
Eonwe Valar: Of course, it's wikipedia, so grain of salt and all, but there it is for quick reference.
ArPharazonV: So the Princes might really have been kings :-)
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VardaValar1: That's interesting, thanks Phar.
Eonwe Valar: Or Dukes, Archdukes, whatever, as long as they were the ruler of their monarchy.
AriehnV: so prince could mean any elf of noble decent .. any that was maybe related to some king in any way
VardaValar1: I got side-tracked on Oropher. *cough*
VardaValar1: Any taxi-driver in Europe? : )
VardaValar1: I wonder when they are lords and when they are princes? Something about the amount of area maybe?
ArPharazonV: And not sure why you're thanking me, Eonwe's links ;-)
VardaValar1: er, thanks Eonwe. : )
AriehnV: fill me in what i missed?
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Some links mostly.
Eonwe Valar: Actually, no.
Eonwe Valar: AIM claims nothing fell between your exits and entries.
Eonwe Valar: Just in case though, I'll whisper you the last little bit..
VardaValar1: Aye. And it's not accurate on that count sometimes. What was the last thing you saw (whisper it to Eonwe).
ArPharazonV: Yes. Sometimes it doesn't register your disconnect until you're almost in again.
ArPharazonV: Often, I should say.
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AriehnV: meeh
Eonwe Valar: So yeah, "elf-prince" could imply any Elf monarch.
Eonwe Valar: You missed nothing that time, Arien :}
ArPharazonV: Or their sons, perhaps.
AriehnV: maybe , maybe not .. could mean any noble elf
AriehnV: in that article it stated it sometimes could mean that in Europe
VardaValar1: We do know it had to be a young elf male, family had to be able to afford a *mithril* shirt.
VardaValar1: Had to be born in Middle-earth.
Eonwe Valar: Part of a royal line.
ArPharazonV: And that there were many of them.
VardaValar1: So they were ones whose families were willing to pass the mithril coat to the young elf.
Eonwe Valar: We can probably rule out Fëanorean descent fairly easily.
VardaValar1: Agreed. Thinking that same thing. : )
AriehnV: .. hmm maybe its a sidetrack but i ve got a question that came into my mind about Thranduil and Oropher
AriehnV: may i ask?
Eonwe Valar: Celebrimbor seemed to be the last of that line, and such an important guy, the leader of the Gwaith-i-mirdain and and all, probably would've just come out and named him by name.
VardaValar1: Type away Arien.
Eonwe Valar: But Celebrimbor might've counted as a prince, hehe.
AriehnV: i am just wondering what race they were? Sindar or Nandor?
VardaValar1: Sindar
AriehnV: oki :-)
AriehnV: thanks
VardaValar1: My pleasure.
ArPharazonV: Do we know if Celebrimbor had any descendants?
ArPharazonV: Or was he married to the job?
VardaValar1: heh
Eonwe Valar: Appears he didn't.
VardaValar1: Don't know of any.
AriehnV: so that makes it "no decendants that we know of"
ArPharazonV: Well, was it specifically said that he didn't have descendants?
VardaValar1: Only implied.
Eonwe Valar: We can draw some conclusions based on the line of kings.
Eonwe Valar: We know the Sons of Fëanor were particularly concerned with fullfilling the Oath, and likely considered that trying to raise a family while under that Oath was dangerous at best.
ArPharazonV: That didn't stop one of them ;-)
Eonwe Valar: From my research on Elves in HoME, they tended to refrain from starting families during times of war.
Eonwe Valar: The story involving one Andreth (I believe) in HoME tells how one such elven prince considered the problem.
Eonwe Valar: Afk for a moment.
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VardaValar1: This is partly how we figured Legolas' age. Thranduil would not have sired a son until most likely after the Siege of Barad-dur.
VardaValar1: After that, the elves might either go West or have a baby boom. : )
ArPharazonV: Or go West and have a baby boom there.
ArPharazonV: And suddenly, a lot of young elves running around Aman.
VardaValar1: :-)
Eonwe Valar: Back.
VardaValar1: Aiyata, meldo. : )
Eonwe Valar: There were some times of peace during the First Age, during which the Elves could attempt to repopulate.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
VardaValar1: Arien said she was having too many connection problems to chat properly and is going to bed, hoping the connection will be fixed by next Sunday.
ArPharazonV: *waves at Arien from the transcript* Goodnight!
VardaValar1: Nighty night, Arien : )
Eonwe Valar: We're at 3 hours after meeting start anyway :}
VardaValar1: Ok, Oropher came from the ruin of Doriath. He took Thranuil and his House with him.
VardaValar1: Thranduil
VardaValar1: I should go to bed, just can't type tonight. : )
ArPharazonV: Thranduil's from the First Age, then.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: Plenty of time between the First and Third for Legolas to have been born.
VardaValar1: Thranduil was the son of Oropher.
ArPharazonV: Aye, Eonwe, was thinking the same thing.
ArPharazonV: Could be older than Arwen.
VardaValar1: From his talk, Legolas doesn't seem to personally remember anything outside of living in Mirkwood as home.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, we know she was born in the Third.
VardaValar1: brb phone
VardaValar1: Back. I get to be a reference for one of Sauron's friends. :-) What should I say about such a person? ;-)
ArPharazonV: A reference?
VardaValar1: Character reference for jobs.
Eonwe Valar: Say he turns into a mighty fine Nazgul? :}
VardaValar1: hehehe
ArPharazonV: Ah, like that.
VardaValar1: Anyway, trying to find the date for the destruction of Doriath.
ArPharazonV: Which time?
VardaValar1: After Dior
VardaValar1: I think that would be when Oropher left?
ArPharazonV: Could be.
Eonwe Valar: "Others of the Eldar there were who cross the mountains of Ered Luin in that age and passed into the inner lands. Many of these were Teleri, survivors of Doriath and Ossiriand; and they established realms among the Silvan Elves in woods and mountains far from the sea, for which nonetheless they ever yearned for in their hearts."
Eonwe Valar: -Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
VardaValar1: Nice. Have a date there?
ArPharazonV: Brb, I'll go fetch the grey annals. War of the Jewels.
Eonwe Valar: Early Second Age.
Eonwe Valar: That wasn't specifically about the destruction of Doriath so much as the Fall of Thangorodrim.
ArPharazonV: Let's see, got WotJ here...
ArPharazonV: 465 was when Beren met Luthien
Eonwe Valar: Are these Year of the Sun or Valian years?
ArPharazonV: Years of the Sun
Eonwe Valar: ok.
ArPharazonV: 470, birth of Dior
ArPharazonV: 472, year of lamentation, Nirnaeth Arnediad
ArPharazonV: 490, Turin reaches Nargothrond
ArPharazonV: Death of Turin and Nienor and Glaurung, 499
ArPharazonV: ..And there it ends. Darn.
ArPharazonV: Do we know of any other timelines?
ArPharazonV: Ah, it continues in a later section.
Eonwe Valar: Side-note related to a previous discussion: Celeborn was called a "prince of Doriath"
VardaValar1: Rotk timeline Second Age "Before the building of the Barad-dur many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan elves. Thranduil, king in the north of Greenwood the Great, was one of these." RotK App B
ArPharazonV: 502, wedding of Tuor and Idril..
Eonwe Valar: Dior was an adult by the time Menegroth was sacked.
ArPharazonV: Tale of Years.
ArPharazonV: 503, Elwing born. I suppose Dior must have been 33 Years of the Sun at this age.
ArPharazonV: 504, Dior returns to Doriath.
ArPharazonV: 506-507: At Yule Dior fought the sons of Feanor on the east marches of Doriath, and was slain.
Eonwe Valar: "At that time Beren and Luthien yet dwelt in Tol Galen, the Green Isle, in the River Adurant, southernmost of the streams that falling from the Ered Lindon flowed down to join with Gelion; and their son Dior Eluchil had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel." - Of the Ruin of Doriath.
ArPharazonV: 510: Assault and sack of Gondolin.
ArPharazonV: 525: Tuor and Idril depart into the west.
ArPharazonV: 527: "Torment falls" on Maidros and brothers because of their oath. This is where it ends, and I suppose the attack on the Mouths was not soon after.
VardaValar1: So Dior's daughter Elwing is related to Celeborn.
VardaValar1: Phar, that was a lot of digging and typing, thank you!
ArPharazonV: Allright, so at Yule 506-507, is the ruin of Doriath.
ArPharazonV: Dior is only 36 years old at this time, it seems.
ArPharazonV: Not very old for an elf.
ArPharazonV: Or half-elf, perhaps.
VardaValar1: Awfully young for an elf to die. And he already had three children!
VardaValar1: Maia, Eldar, Edain : )
ArPharazonV: Yes. In any case, so young that his heritage was not yet a problem in his aging, so no choice necessary for him yet.
ArPharazonV: 3 children?
VardaValar1: Elured, Elurin, Elwing
ArPharazonV: Oh! Right.
VardaValar1: The two sons were young - died in the forest best we can tell.
ArPharazonV: Elrun and Eldun, in this Tale of Years.
ArPharazonV: with accents.
VardaValar1: hmm, that could make the Greenwood older than Eregion.
VardaValar1: no no
VardaValar1: yes, 750 Eregion is founded.
ArPharazonV: Second Age?
Eonwe Valar: Would have to be.
VardaValar1: So Greenwood could be older.
VardaValar1: SA 506 - 507 Doriath goes down
VardaValar1: SA 750 Eregion is founded.
ArPharazonV: That's First Age.
VardaValar1: ah hah, that's better. Made no sense. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Greenwood as a kingdom ruled by Silvans would be *roughly* contemporary to Eregion as a kingdom ruled by Noldor.
VardaValar1: FA 506-507 Doriath goes down
Eonwe Valar: From the same place as my penultimate quote..
ArPharazonV: If I recall, the First Age was about 600 years, maybe less, according to this timeline... being generous, there have to be at least 800 years between the ruin of Doriath and the founding of Eregion.
Eonwe Valar: Or clearer- two quotes back..
ArPharazonV: I can't see Oropher and Thranduil taking 800 years to get there.
Eonwe Valar: "Only in Eregion, which Men called Hollin, did the Elves of Noldorin race establish a lasting realm beyondthe Ered Luin"
VardaValar1: RotK timeline has Eregion founded SA 750
VardaValar1: What about Imladris?
ArPharazonV: Was Imladris really a "realm" though?
ArPharazonV: More of a city, a sanctuary... a city-state perhaps.
VardaValar1: SA 1697 Imladris founded
ArPharazonV: Maybe it's just not what I envision under realm.
Eonwe Valar: Two pages later...
VardaValar1: Maybe that's one reason Elrond doesn't call himself a king or High KIng?
VardaValar1: No one rules over Elrond though.
Eonwe Valar: "From that time war never ceased between Sauron and the Elve; and Eregion was laid waste, and Celebrimbor slain, and the doors of Moria were shut. In that time the stronghold and refuge of Imladris, that Men called Rivendell, was founded by Elrond Half-elven; and long it endured."
Eonwe Valar: It's not so much a realm as an outpost.
VardaValar1: Ok, so that's why Eregion was the last one.
ArPharazonV: Stronghold's a nice word.
VardaValar1: The Last Homely House. :-)
VardaValar1: Funny that homely has different meanings in English and American. : )
ArPharazonV: Does it?
VardaValar1: Homely meant a home. In America it means ugly as in not pretty.
ArPharazonV: Ah. I was not aware of the American meaning.
VardaValar1: Obvious when reading the books that it's not the American meaning, so that was a quck flash education.
VardaValar1: Like a bonnet is not a girl's hat, but a car lid. : )
VardaValar1: Ok, so we have FA 506-507 for the ending of Doriath. Elves don't live there anymore.
Eonwe Valar: "In the East, in Ossiriandthe walls of the Ered Luin were broken, and a great gap was made in them towards the south, and a gulf of the sea flowed in. Into that gulf the River Lhun fell by a new course, and it was called therefore the Gulf of Lhun. That country had ...
ArPharazonV: Is it a car lid in English or American?
VardaValar1: American, and it's a hood.
ArPharazonV: Right.
VardaValar1: Bonnet is feminine, hood is masculine, but both could be head gear.
Eonwe Valar: of old been named Lindon by the Noldor, and this name it bore thereafter; and many of the Eldar still dwelt there, lingering, unwilling to forsake Beleriand where they had fought and laboured long. Gil-Galad, son of Fingon was their king, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, son of Earnedil the Mariner and brother of Elros first king of Numenor.
Eonwe Valar: "
Eonwe Valar: So Gil-Galad's realm isn't "beyond the Ered Luin" in case that question crossed anyone's minds.
ArPharazonV: "beyond" as seen from what direction?
VardaValar1: Wasn't there just that little bit left west of the Ered Luin?
Eonwe Valar: Beyond as seen from the west, obviously.
Eonwe Valar: Ossiriand was a chunk of Beleriand still left after the War of Wrath.
ArPharazonV: Ah, so you're saying Gil-Galad's realm was to the west of the Blue Mountains.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Gil-Galad's realm was a remnant of Beleriand, though now the Sea had come in and breached the Ered Luin in the south.
Eonwe Valar: So the majority of Noldor and Sindar seemed to have remained there, while others like Thranduil/Oropher and Celebrimbor, headed east.
ArPharazonV: So when did Elrond move eastwards?
Eonwe Valar: If only by looking for ambiguity in wording, the potential is there that Noldor "tried" to establish other realms, but the only one that really took off and got anywhere was the one founded in Eregion.
Eonwe Valar: Shortly after the One Ring was realized and The War of the Elves and Sauron began.
VardaValar1: And it was friendly with dwarves, heh.
VardaValar1: "In the beginning of the Second Age
VardaValar1: sorry, tried to delete that and hit the wrong button
VardaValar1: SA 1695 Gil-galad sends Elrond to Eregion.
VardaValar1: SA 1697 Elrond founds Imladris.
Eonwe Valar: So Imladris would probably be a stronghold of Gil-Galad's realm, if it were said to belong to any realm.
VardaValar1: SA 1600 Sauron completes the Barad-dur. (I was looking for that.)
VardaValar1: Thranduil went to the Greenwood before the building of the Barad-dur (apparently way before?).
ArPharazonV: About 1600 years before.
VardaValar1: "In the beginning of this age (2nd) many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dur many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves. Thranduil, king in the nort of Greenwood the Great, was one of these."
ArPharazonV: It doesn't say how long before, so it still works :-)
VardaValar1: :-)
ArPharazonV: Note that Oropher is not mentioned here.
VardaValar1: Aye. RotK seems to do shortening of this stuff, as it's not as relevant to what's happening.
VardaValar1: Sort of like finding the spot where it says Frodo destroys the One Ring.
Eonwe Valar: I made the equivalent quote from Sil, not any more detail really.
ArPharazonV: But we know Thranduil was not the founding king.
VardaValar1: Aye and aye
VardaValar1: Confirms that what you found in Sil agrees with RotK. Canon therefore.
Eonwe Valar: Apparently Gil-Galad's power and influence had reached from the remnants of Beleriand to the borders of the Greenwood in the time Sauron was in Numenor.
VardaValar1: Oropher and Thranduil were trying hard to leave the influence of the Noldor.
VardaValar1: Still wound up in the Battle of the Last Alliance and the Siege of Barad-guldur. : )
Eonwe Valar: "There [Sauron] found that the power of Gil-Galad had grown great in the years of his absence, and it was spread now over wide regions of the north and west, and had passed beyond the Misty Mountains and the Great River even to the borders of Greenwood the Great, and was drawing nigh to the strong places where once he had dwelt secure." - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.
VardaValar1: Elrond apparently had some sort of relationship going with Mirkwood, even though he was a Noldo.
VardaValar1: to the borders.
ArPharazonV: Well, I'll be leaving, it's 3 am here.
VardaValar1: Aye, Gil-galad did bring the Greenwood into the fight.
VardaValar1: Sleep fast!
ArPharazonV: I hope to see the remainder of this discussion added to the transcript.
ArPharazonV: Saving and sending transcript!
VardaValar1: Thank you for the chat!
ArPharazon-V: saved
EonweValar: Imladris would've been an important stronghold on the borders of the Misty Mountains. Emissaries between GreenWood/Lorien and Lindon would've found it easier to go through the High Pass than Moria or possibly the Gap of Rohan.
VardaValar1: Thank you for the fair copies of the many transcripts you've sent. : )
ArPharazon-V: Heh.
VardaValar1: Location, location.
VardaValar1: Lorien and Mirkwood seemed to have little contact otherwise.
EonweValar: Imladris might've been an important stop even were someone to take the Gap of Rohan.
VardaValar1: Oropher and Thranduil didn't want to be under Galadriel's thumb.
ArPharazon-V: Might be a reason why they didn't go poking the southern half of Mirkwood so much.
ArPharazon-V: Too close to those Noldor over there.
VardaValar1: And that left a vacuum for Sauron.
EonweValar: Well, Celeborn was Sindarin. Would've been a reasonable amount of them surrounding the pair too.
VardaValar1: True, Celeborn was Sindarin.
ArPharazon-V: Good point. The only Noldo there was Galadriel.
EonweValar: But yeah, they seemed content to maintain a healthy distance between their established realms.
EonweValar: Well, Galadriel might've had Noldor who gathered to her.
VardaValar1: The traffic seemed to be from the Ladies of Imladris going to Lothlorien. No mention of visits the other way.
VardaValar1: Galadriel and Elrond probably had to stay put so their Rings could take care of their areas.
ArPharazon-V: transcript sent
VardaValar1: Thank you. : )
EonweValar: Celebrian was the daughter of Celeborn and Galadriel. I think one version of the tale has Amroth as their son?
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: Then Amroth was a Sindar instead.
VardaValar1: So was Nimrodel.
VardaValar1: If they had had a daughter, she would probably have been expected to marry a son of Thranduil's.
EonweValar: Or a son of Elrond.
VardaValar1: heh, keep wanting to fix my own grammar.
VardaValar1: I wonder. They had a lot of Noldorin.
EonweValar: Assuming the "Amroth is not Galadriel's/Celeborn's son" version.
VardaValar1: I'm going with the later Amroth and Nimrodel were Sindarin.
ArPharazon-V: Even if he was, marriages among cousins would not be that uncommon among royalty.
VardaValar1: As long as they aren't first cousins, I think?
ArPharazon-V: True, and this would make them first cousins.
EonweValar: I don't remember the exact rule so far as Elves go, but Maeglin and Idril were definitely too close at 1st cousins.
ArPharazon-V: Allright, I'm off.
EonweValar: Sleep well Phar :}
ArPharazon-V: I hope to see the rest of this added!
VardaValar1: Nighty night, or good morning, Phar. :-)
ArPharazon-V: Namarie will do :)
EonweValar: I haven't looked into Amroth/Nimrodel/etc. in a long time.
ArPharazon-V: Namarie!
EonweValar: I'm fairly sure Amroth's descent is neither confirmed nor denied in LotR.
VardaValar1: He's definitely blond. : )
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EonweValar: Hehe.
VardaValar1: One of the few where it's mentioned. He and Thranduil are both specifically shown as blond.
EonweValar: ok.
EonweValar: So potentially a connection.
VardaValar1: And he had a blond moment to prove it.
EonweValar: Celeborn ruling over Lorien certainly wouldn't rule out the "only lasting Noldorin realm east of Ered Luin" thing.
EonweValar: Since he's Sindarin.
EonweValar: Well, that's more connected to the "Amroth = son" version.
VardaValar1: Seems like everyone looks at Galadriel as if she's the main ruler, but she keeps trying to make it look like Celeborn is.
VardaValar1: He's quite good as the miltary leader. Makes her like the priestess leader.
EonweValar: Might be a bit of Catholicism leaking through there too, heh.
VardaValar1: In the old ruling systems, the chief was the warrior leader supported by the shaman or priest.
VardaValar1: Could be a little of both, aye. : )
Iryenth has left the room.
VardaValar1: So did we get the time for the start of Sindarin rule more or less down for the Greenwood? : )
EonweValar: I'm not sure I recall the "    Seems like everyone looks at Galadriel as if she's the main ruler, but she keeps trying to make it look like Celeborn is." thing personally. I need to reread.
VardaValar1: I mean readers or maybe movie watchers. I should not say everyone.
EonweValar: Ah.
EonweValar: I thought you meant in context of the story.
VardaValar1: She does seem to be in the story too, in some ways.
VardaValar1: Fearing the Witch of the Woods.
EonweValar: Reason I said the Catholicism thing.
VardaValar1: People seem to look to her when in the presence of the rulers, as she's reading their minds. But she then reports to Celeborn.
VardaValar1: She's on the White Council. What about Celeborn?
EonweValar: Well, in an ideal world, one's wife would be their most trusted advisor, hehehe.
VardaValar1: Agreed. : )
EonweValar: And the reverse true as well.
VardaValar1: Aye
EonweValar: That is a good question. I forget if Celeborn is on the White Council.
EonweValar: I forget if we even have a full roster off the top of my head.
VardaValar1: Members of the Wise, chief Eldar.
VardaValar1: I'll bet Galadriel told Celeborn what was going on and would have given his suggestions at the Council, if he didn't go to the meetings.
EonweValar: Gandalf and Saruman, Elrond, and Galadriel certainly. Not unreasonable to assume Radagast would be involved if he could focus long enough on it. Would be reasonable if Celeborn were involved.
VardaValar1: Another thing, if she and Elrond stayed in their realms with their Rings, how did they have meetings?
VardaValar1: This suggests they could indeed leave if only for a short while.
EonweValar: Cirdan I believe was involved, if not named, he would've been reasonable to assume.
VardaValar1: Long way to go.
VardaValar1: Telepathy could be really handy, or that projection trick in the movie. : )
EonweValar: Back to "location, location, location" : Rivendell seemed to be nicely positioned between the furthest points of elvendom.
VardaValar1: The distances would be one reason why they didn't meet often.
VardaValar1: Agreed.
VardaValar1: Put that High King in the center, even if he won't claim the position. : )
EonweValar: Well, I don't think they need meet every Tuesday even if they were closer, hehe.
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: True : )
EonweValar: The idea was to pass information, work for a common goal, and stay on the same page, not to dictate the individual contributions of ever participant.
EonweValar: *every
VardaValar1: Saruman would be glad to dictate. ;-)
EonweValar: Though the Hobbit movie kinda made it look like the latter to me.
EonweValar: And aye, hehe.
VardaValar1: It was a council of the Wise, as I remember, so it would include the Istari and the elven ring bearers.
VardaValar1: Saruman was leader, although Galadriel would have preferred Gandalf.
EonweValar: Aye.
EonweValar: I'm sure Saruman, if not outright told, could surmise where two of the three Rings were. If only two Elves were involved in the Council, it would be evident by absence that the third Ring was not in the hands of an Elf.
EonweValar: Though there is the story in UT that indicates Saruman secretly knew Gandalf had Narya, though that may not be canonically true.
VardaValar1: Interesting.
VardaValar1: He may have thought Cirdan still held it?
EonweValar: Something about Saruman seeing Cirdan give it to Gandalf, if memory serves.
EonweValar: *In UT.
VardaValar1: If he saw it, that would be bad. Could've been possible.
VardaValar1: Seems like Cirdan would be more circumspect if he opted to give it to Gandalf rather than Saruman.
EonweValar: It would be reasonable to assume Cirdan had it, if Cirdan was involved in the White Council. I think it would be a mistake for Cirdan not to be a member anyway.
VardaValar1: If only as a red herring. : )
EonweValar: Hehe.
VardaValar1: He should be involved anyway.
EonweValar: Aye. A thinking man would say "hmm, 3 Elven Rings, 2 Elven members of the White Council. I know where the third isn't!" :}
VardaValar1: The Grey Havens were their connection to the West.
VardaValar1: hehe
EonweValar: The question then is, was Thranduil involved n the White Council? I tend to think not.
VardaValar1: I think he would have avoided it.
EonweValar: Thorin and Company didn't exactly help the situation, but I would think he'd find something up with a bunch of Dwarves travelling east through Mirkwood and not just of the "they're harassing my people while they party" variety.
VardaValar1: I don't think there was a roster of who was on the White Council.
VardaValar1: Thranduil thought something was up.
VardaValar1: Also, those feasts in the woods left areas that had less of the darkness. They seemed to serve a cleansing purpose.
VardaValar1: Gandalf didn't want to be a leader of any group so he would not be tied down. He wanted to be able to go wherever he needed to.
EonweValar: Aye.

VardaValar1: After-meeting:
VardaValar1: Just to be official, we are now in after-meeting. : )
EonweValar: Noted :}