Valar Guild

May 29, 2011 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (9)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar, Fladrifv, Gilraen-(V)/Iryenth, Glorfindel VG, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, Menelvagor Valar, VardaValar1 (presiding)

Meeting begins
    May 25 was Fangorn-(Valar)'s 58th birthday.
    Funny YouTube link using Battle for Middle-earth 2
    Second Life
    StarCraft 2
       Expansion, teaser
        (see also After-meeting)
       New instances and skirmishes added this week, plus gaming tweaks.
    Topic: The more powerful beings had to be lessened or otherwise restrained to allow the Free Peoples to grow up and handle their own problems, rather than remaining as cared-for children.
    WoW Sunday after-meeting gaming:
        The WoW Valar Guild on Lothar server hit rank 9 and got our second main healer to level cap.
        Ready from that progress, The Valar Guild downed the Lich King. And there was much rejoicing.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: aiya there :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Phar and Arien :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Iryenth has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
Iryenth: aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Gilraen and Eonwe :-)
AriehnV: aiya all
VardaValar1: Good to see everyone again. : )

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Welcome back :}
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: Thanks!
Fladrifv has left the room.
VardaValar1: Fangorn and I had a great trip, saw lots of family, ate too much, and just missed getting hit by five tornadoes! So it's all good. :-)
VardaValar1: Any other membership news?
ArPharazonV: five eh?
ArPharazonV: All at once?
VardaValar1: We ate over at Oklahoma City, left, and just after we left, five tornadoes rolled in all around Oklahoma City.
VardaValar1: We just barely beat them out. Looked like lovely weather. heh
VardaValar1: Would not have guessed what was out there from how it looked.
AriehnV: just amazing
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar. All at once.
ArPharazonV: Hmm. I feel sorry for the folks who stayed behind then.
VardaValar1: It didn't hit the city. Lots of open area around there. But one person was killed. Doubt that will make the national news.
ArPharazonV: It would here. But then... our countries are very different :-)
VardaValar1: We used to live in Tornado Alley. They were so common, nobody mentioned them unless they hit a big city.
VardaValar1: Now we live where hurricanes come in. Nutty huh? : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
ArPharazonV: Eh, who am I to compare, I'm pretty sure I live below sea level.
VardaValar1: Indis says hi from an IM.
VardaValar1: For sure you do!
ArPharazonV: Hi!
ArPharazonV: Well, we're in an elevated part of town.
ArPharazonV: But I think it's still below.
VardaValar1: Also hi from Fangorn and Bilbo.
ArPharazonV: Also hi!
VardaValar1: I wish our neighbors in New Orleans would study your system more, Phar!
ArPharazonV: Not sure if we're equipped to deal with hurricanes to be honest :-)
VardaValar1: If there's no further membership news?
VardaValar1: eep

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: Firiel-(T) sent in a poem and two stories.
VardaValar1: In the two stories, she used a lot of Elvish, so to make it perhaps a bit easier to look at, I rigged a mouse-over so you can see the translation from that.
VardaValar1: I'd like you folks to take a look at that and make sure it works for you.
AriehnV: if you link it ^^
VardaValar1: ok :-)
ArPharazonV: Gonna try it
VardaValar1: The poem doesn't have that but the others do. Here they are:
VardaValar1: Poem: Beren Watches Luthien Dancing
ArPharazonV: Works for me.
VardaValar1: Yay :-)
ArPharazonV: There's no Elvish in that one I think?
VardaValar1: Right
VardaValar1: Story: Interlude
VardaValar1: That has the Quenya
VardaValar1: It's also interesting because it considers what might have happened to Eriol/Aelfwine.
VardaValar1: Saeros and Eltrom is the other story, where Saeros is stewing in rage.
VardaValar1: That has Elvish used in the area at the time: Ilkorin and Doriathin.
AriehnV: works fine
VardaValar1: Excellent!
VardaValar1: Are you two using Explorer or Firefox?
AriehnV: Firefox is my default
AriehnV: thats what i used here
VardaValar1: Thanks.
ArPharazonV: Firefox here too.
VardaValar1: From the forum, Irmo sent us a video of how the battle might have gone for the Last Alliance had Tom Bombadil shown up:
Glorfindel VG has entered the room.
VardaValar1: A video he ran across, not made. : )
ArPharazonV: *nod* liked that one!
VardaValar1: Glorfindel, aiya!
Glorfindel VG: Aiya!
ArPharazonV: Watched it several times, quite funny
VardaValar1: :-)
VardaValar1: Any further web news?

VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: Did anyone play games besides WoW and LotRO this past week?
VardaValar1: I did slip into Second Life for a little while Sunday, and Fladrif showed me around his new place. Very nice! He's quite an artist.
ArPharazonV: Well, I have some Starcraft II news
VardaValar1: Fire!
ArPharazonV: New information on the first expansion, Heart of the Swarm, is coming; and a 45 second teaser has been released.
ArPharazonV: Several links I could give, but no official title I've found yet, I'll try to find one of various links.
ArPharazonV: this should be sufficient
VardaValar1: Thanks, Phar!
VardaValar1: heh, had to watch it, pardon the sudden quiet.
ArPharazonV: No other news for me. Played some smaller things, but nothing important.
VardaValar1: Alrighty
Glorfindel VG: I need to play SC sometime.. Have had the game on my battle account for ages and never played :-\
VardaValar1: And we lost Glorfindel... ;-)

VardaValar1: WoW:
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Some of the family slipped into WoW last night. We are very close to getting the guild to the next rank, and within three bubbles of Fangorn's having a level 85 priest too. : )
ArPharazonV: What level is the guild now?
VardaValar1: We hope to get those two fun things after the meeting tonight. Bilbo, Fangorn, and myself should be there.
VardaValar1: Eonwe, welcome back. : )
Eonwe Valar: Thanks. Don't know why I disconnected, heh.
VardaValar1: It's level 8 right now.
Eonwe Valar: We're level 8, on the verge of lvl 9.
ArPharazonV: Ah. You'll catch up with us yet.
VardaValar1: With as small a group as we have, we think we're doing pretty well. : )
VardaValar1: Power went out for a few seconds here, yay batteries!
Eonwe Valar: We could pull in another 2.1 mill exp just from doing the 7 dungeon challenges every week :}
AriehnV: Bilbo and my drood ran together Coilfang instances and he helped me doing some nagrand quests
VardaValar1: Think you'll be able to come tonight, Eonwe?
VardaValar1: Very good, Arien. : )
Eonwe Valar: I planned to. We have the Lich King to kill tonight.
VardaValar1: Good luck to us. : )
VardaValar1: Sauron's not home yet.
VardaValar1: That could be rather crippling, but we can try.
VardaValar1: Any other WoW news, Eonwe?
Eonwe Valar: Just that we had a run on Gruul and the Lich King last Sunday.
Eonwe Valar: Got all the way to Arthas himself, and hope to finish it tonight so I don't have to extend the raid lock another week.
VardaValar1: Glorfindel is leveling fast and will be running with us on these things soon if SC doesn't drag him away. : )
VardaValar1: Great! We still have the raid lock!
Eonwe Valar: Friday was uneventful, no runs that I'm aware of. [Note: numerous small group runs]
VardaValar1: Bilbo has been on WoW quite a bit and Elwing as well.

VardaValar1: On to LotRO:
VardaValar1: I wasn't here this week to see what happened, but Gildor kindly sent a report for the Monday run.
VardaValar1: They ran Grand Stairs a couple of times, filling in with a pug.
VardaValar1: Then they did a fast run of The School in Hollin, think they're working on a record for speed. : )
VardaValar1: Monday LotRO had a big update.
VardaValar1: New instances and skirmishes, along with the usual mass of tweaks.
VardaValar1: The patch notes don't seem to always tell us every little new thing they do to the landscape and we find surprises, quite delightful.
VardaValar1: Give yourself a little time to download the patch if you haven't already.
VardaValar1: membership news item: Fangorn's birthday was the 25th. Much cake has been consumed.
VardaValar1: Does anyone else have any LotRO news?

VardaValar1: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: First up, do we want to try anything on the RP?
ArPharazonV: Do we have enough people here?
VardaValar1: We have Phar, Arien, Eonwe, and me. Indis is on a side window.
ArPharazonV: Ah, side window.
ArPharazonV: Well, we could try.
VardaValar1: Or we could discuss Irmo's video...
VardaValar1: Tom Bombadil stuck to his own home area. Had he not, history might have been quite different. Perhaps that's a good thing.
VardaValar1: The Free Peoples were supposed to learn how to fend for themselves, not depend on powers to do it for them.
Eonwe Valar: I'm not quite sure Bombadil would be as useful in a run-of-the-mill battle as he is in Battle for Middle-Earth 2.
ArPharazonV: I know he had songs of power, but getting Free Peoples, Orcs and Sauron himself to dance with him during a major battle would probably be beyond even him :-)
VardaValar1: If all of the Istari had worked together, even with their powers and memories lessened, they might have been more interference than intended.
ArPharazonV: Though who knows what old Tom could have done with the potential of the Safety Dance...
VardaValar1: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Had all the Istari worked together, there'd be the entirety of the peoples of the West lined up at his door, plus some angry animals.
VardaValar1: If Saruman had done as intended, he may have wound up leading all of the Istari, the Council of the Wise, and all the kingdoms. That would not have been the Free Peoples learning to take care of themselves.
VardaValar1: heheh - badgers taking down Barad-dur!
VardaValar1: Events would have been very different.
Eonwe Valar: Saruman might've led the armies, but it still would've taken convincing the Free Peoples to follow him. Gandalf inspired the confidence of others in him because he wasn't looking to rule, only guide.
VardaValar1: They didn't have to fear him.
VardaValar1: O goody, here comes another guy trying to conquer the world. Can't they just tend their own tater patches?
ArPharazonV: And in the end most of the known world ended up under one man anyway, even though he was a mortal :-)
VardaValar1: Interesting thought.
VardaValar1: Harad and Far Harad were still not under his rule and had the cults of the Blue Wizards in their area. That must've made for interesting times.
VardaValar1: JRRT was a monarchist, heh.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: However,.. "A king is he that can hold his own, or else his title is in vain." :}
VardaValar1: True for any civilization or group. Well said.
Eonwe Valar: Even a king has to have the support of the people to rule.
Eonwe Valar: Maedhros said it, in response to Thingol's declarations on where the Noldor may set up their kingdoms in Beleriand. :}
VardaValar1: A leader is actually a servant to the group in most things or he is no leader.
VardaValar1: Thanks, couldn't remember who it was. : )
VardaValar1: Aragorn had to see to the safety of the borders, starting with the Shire, then moving on up.
Eonwe Valar: "He only gives us leave to live in lands where his power does not run. In Doriath he rules, and in Doriath let him remain, and be glad he has the sons of Finwë for neighbors, and not the orcs we found here. Elsewhere it shall go as seems good to us."
VardaValar1: He had to keep good diplomatic relations with the many types of civilizations. Elves, dwarves, hobbits, ents, other humans.
VardaValar1: Feanorian Buffer Zone. : )
VardaValar1: Gandalf may have been helping Aragorn out with his future rule as much as the mission by picking those members for the Fellowship.
VardaValar1: I'm going to call After-meeting at this point, but anyone that wants to can continue the chat. : )
VardaValar1: *tinnnnng*

VardaValar1: After-meeting!
AriehnV: (but he left as well as his time was over after Aragorn won his crown)
VardaValar1: True
VardaValar1: Fladrif can't get in the chat and requests that someone invite him.
VardaValar1: I keep getting the message of already being in a session with him.
VardaValar1: Could one of you invite him?
ArPharazonV: done
Fladrifv has entered the room.
Fladrifv: Aiya
AriehnV: aiya Ent :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
Fladrifv: Aim does not do the old woods a favour
AriehnV: maybe infested by huorns
VardaValar1: Flad! Grats for making it in. : )
Fladrifv: even the huorns normaly listen quite well
Fladrifv: thank you Varda
VardaValar1: All those shadows under the huorns may have clogged their "ears".
Fladrifv: hmm wild grow in the hearing region?
ArPharazonV: Could use a trim, perhaps.
VardaValar1: Pruning time. Wonder who'd be willing to do that?
Fladrifv: always an hobbit around for that
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: Good point!
VardaValar1: Eonwe's been crashing tonight.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Fladrifv: Aiyata eonwe
VardaValar1: Aiyata!
ArPharazonV: Aiyata :-)
Eonwe Valar: Thanks. Don't know why that happens.
Fladrifv: would you be more happy when you knew why? :-)
ArPharazonV: Well, he might be able to fix it then.
AriehnV: aye just wanted to say that ^^
AriehnV: when you know the cause of a failure or mistake you are able to fix or at least try
Fladrifv: is convinced it is due the the low amount of sunrays
AriehnV: or a technical fault in this case
AriehnV: aye sun has been a wee bit sleepy i think
AriehnV: certainly here on skye
Fladrifv: helped by some volcanic ashes
ArPharazonV: Well you should know, Arien :-)
VardaValar1: Make it any cooler?
AriehnV: cooler than what it is ? then it would snow lol
Fladrifv: laughs
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
AriehnV: aiya Menel :-D , i think my eyes deceive me
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya Arien, no they don't, although quite technically, you don't have eyes... just a lot of flames *grin*
ArPharazonV: Aiya Menel!
ArPharazonV: How's Estarion? :-)
AriehnV: *laughs* - tickles the starry warrior with some rays
Menelvagor Valar: *laughs quite hard and sends back some rays to tickle Arien in turn :-D
Eonwe Valar: Arien is a Maia who steers the Sun. Why can't she have eyes? :}
Menelvagor Valar: Uhm... I'd have to check Pharzie :-D
Menelvagor Valar: oh dagnabbit. I forgot about that :-D
Menelvagor Valar: and Aiya Eonwe.
Menelvagor Valar: Been some time.
Eonwe Valar: Heya :}
AriehnV: Frali pointed to him as the source of the orc sword which unfortunately have some corruptive runes on the blade
Eonwe Valar: I've been meaning to mention something about that actually.
AriehnV: so we deal with a corrupt dwarf atm .. i am still thinking how to work that in best
Eonwe Valar: I took a look back voe rthe story, and I'm pretty sure it was Calion who gave her the sword :}
VardaValar1: The WoW Valar Guild has just reached Level 9. :-)
Eonwe Valar: *back over the
AriehnV: Grats :-D
ArPharazonV: Congrats!
Menelvagor Valar: Nice :-)
Eonwe Valar: That would explain the noise I just heard in the background. Thanks Varda :}
ArPharazonV: Didn't Menel have the sword at one point?
Menelvagor Valar: I really should get my US account upgraded to Cata ^^
Menelvagor Valar: I had *an* orc sword at some point, aye.
VardaValar1: Menel, aiya!
AriehnV: which he flung rather unceremenously at Frali
AriehnV: that s the one
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya Varda!
VardaValar1: Indis is switching to a computer now.
karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: Aiya
AriehnV: aiya Indis
VardaValar1: Fangorn just hit level cap on his healer. : )
AriehnV: and grats :-D
karakedi25: grats!
ArPharazonV: grats :-)
AriehnV: i am just resting my drood atm so she can get to 70 at least faster
AriehnV: she is 67 and a bit atm or is it 68 i think
Menelvagor Valar: nice :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I've been leveling my Arc on my paladin (EU)
AriehnV: sweet
Menelvagor Valar: Also grabbed up master riding, setting me back below 20k gold for the first time in quite some time ^^
AriehnV: hehe,
Menelvagor Valar: not counting the 1k I have on my druid of course ^^
ArPharazonV: Hmm, I'll need to go for a good while. If I'm not back by the time everyone's gone, have a good chat :-)
AriehnV: i am actually thinking of setting Frali wandering of wanting to search some gold as he thinks it might bring him more profit than the sword as ssuch
ArPharazonV: will stay in room
karakedi25: take care, Phar
AriehnV: since Eonwe mentioned dwarves are reluctant to be dominated and only their yearn for gold was inflamed in the books
karakedi25: Might cause a bit of a flurry in the group.
Menelvagor Valar: Reading up on everything as we speak :-)
Menelvagor Valar: or rather, as you speak ^^
Eonwe Valar: Aye. Dwarves have done evil, and I recall that some have been implied if not outright said to have served Sauron/Morgoth, but being subjugated to either's will or an outside will is unlikely due to how Aulë made them.
AriehnV: dont want to cause too much disruption with this curve
Menelvagor Valar: the fabled "dark dwarves"?
Eonwe Valar: Dark Dwarves? I don't recall that terminology being used off the top of my head.
Menelvagor Valar: or are you referring to the dwarves that Túrin encountered?
Menelvagor Valar: not that terminology as such, but I do recall dwarves serving their own ends before any other, thereby doing Morgoth's will.
karakedi25: the ones Turin encountered were 'petty dwarves'
Menelvagor Valar: Yes, but I do distinctly recall their leader (can't recall the name) thinking themselves to be the first of the dwarves.
Eonwe Valar: "Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron." Implies that some, even if less than an entire Dwarven House, fought for Sauron.
Eonwe Valar: That's in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age." btw.
Menelvagor Valar: hmmm... I hadn't read that passage...
Menelvagor Valar: but it's entirely possible that with the fall of the Dwarven Strongholds some were captured and "turned" as some Elves were, like Maeglin was.
Eonwe Valar: It's talking about the war at the end of the Second Age.
Eonwe Valar: Maeglin wasn't turned so much as he saw an opportunity to fullfill his ends, and Morgoth took advantage of it.
Eonwe Valar: Maeglin already had less-than-noble leanings.
Menelvagor Valar: hence the term "turned" ^^
Menelvagor Valar: not entirely sure what a " is called in English, but I generally use them to indicate a word that comes relatively close to what I mean but either doesn't cover the entire meaning or is just not quite it.
Eonwe Valar: It's called a double quote :}
Menelvagor Valar: thanks :-D
Menelvagor Valar: also, there's the matter of who is chronicling all that stuff, is it a human, or elven?
Menelvagor Valar: an Elf might notice the difference between the dwarves, denoting different lineages, but a human might mistake a dwarf for something resembling a dwarf.
Eonwe Valar: The simplest description might be, as I recall it from somewhere in HoME, is a human understanding of Elvish lore/legends/history.
Menelvagor Valar: In that case, it's most likely dwarves.
Menelvagor Valar: Which means that some (possibly more easterly tribes) were seduced by the lure of gold, like Dúrin's folk was lured by the 7.
Eonwe Valar: Well, alot of stuff from the First Age onward can be taken to be from human histories as well. It's mostly the goings on in Aman and before the creation of the Elves, things passed down through those other than the participants, might be of uncertain understanding.
Menelvagor Valar: True, but most of it is in certain enough terms to warrant at least a little leeway.
Eonwe Valar: I.e, if we were to take the more scientifically accurate version of Arda's history as canon, the Two Trees spawning the Sun and Moon would be a misunderstanding of something along the way, as Elves of Aman would've had the astronomical knowledge to know there already was a Sun, moon, the design of the Solar system, etc.
Menelvagor Valar: perhaps, but then again, when the Two Trees died, Aman was in darkness for an age.
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien covered that :}
Eonwe Valar: I can't quote the eintrety perfectly, but more or less the idea is that somehow Morgoth emitted dark clouds that blocked out the Sun, laying the entirety of Arda in darkness.
Eonwe Valar: *entirety
Menelvagor Valar: And the moon did not rise until the landing of Turgon's host in ... darn.. the name... Hithlum.
Menelvagor Valar: or rather, Fingolfin.
Eonwe Valar: That would be related to the dissapation of Melkor's clouds, if memory of the passage serves me well.
Eonwe Valar: Just like the Elves' awakening would necessarily come after the defeat of Melkor, with the dissipation of his clouds the stars would be visible.
Menelvagor Valar: True, however, that same dissipation would cause the moon to be visible.
Eonwe Valar: In this version, Man would also awaken during Melkor's captivity, some 500 valinorean years in I think...
Menelvagor Valar: yet all the Elves awoke to at lake Cuiviénen even were the stars.
Menelvagor Valar: Which, as we all know are some multiple human years at the least.
Eonwe Valar: That could easily be explained as a new moon, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: And just because the moon is in the sky doesn't mean that's the first thing they see when they look up :}
Menelvagor Valar: they dwelled at Cuivienen for many years and saw nothing but the stars, not moon nor sun.
Menelvagor Valar: darn... I just found a passage that throws the entirety of humankind into a new light :-D
AriehnV: The sun has to sail west i am afraid tho (altho i am not entirely sure whether our stairs are on the westside )
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well :}
Eonwe Valar: I must turn my attention to killing the Lich King now :}
Menelvagor Valar: Good night Arien :-)
Menelvagor Valar: ooh... need any help? :-D
AriehnV: Sleep well Menel :-) and good to see you again old friend
Menelvagor Valar: I still have my din :-)
AriehnV: i was getting worried about you
Menelvagor Valar: Good to see you too Arien my dear.
karakedi25: actually the moon wasn't created until well after Cuivienen
karakedi25: When the Noldor returned to Endor
Menelvagor Valar: Don't worry too much, though life has dealt many a blow to me this past year, and many would have been serious in the past, I have grown much stronger, and none would but scratch me.
AriehnV: :-) i know what you mean
Menelvagor Valar: exactly Indis :-D
AriehnV: good to hear that , rest well
AriehnV has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: shucks.
Menelvagor Valar: seems I have to reread the passage of the crossing of the river and the giving of the sword to Frali :-D
Menelvagor Valar: Eonwe? Is Sindarin a language developed by the the Elves that started the March but did not finish, or generally of the Elves who originated at Cuivienen?
karakedi25: It's a descendant of the original elven of cuivienen and is the language that developed among the Sindar of Beleriand during the separation
Eonwe Valar: In quick answer I'd say the first is closest to accurate.
karakedi25: It's related to Quenya
Menelvagor Valar: and it is as I thought, it was not me who gave the sword to Frali, but Calion.
Eonwe Valar: Or what Indis said.
karakedi25: but developed differently because of the separation of the speakers of the two
Menelvagor Valar: In that case, would an Avar of Cuivienen know the language, or simply recognize it without truly knowing what it means?>
Eonwe Valar: Probably not without effort.
karakedi25: He might if he had contact with Sindarin-speaking elves (i.e., all the wood-elves)
karakedi25: the ultimate same origin might mean some head starts as he learned, but it would be very different from how Avarin developed
Menelvagor Valar: not enough to count for the differences I reckon.
karakedi25: Avarin would also have developed in its own way(s) (scattered Avarin peoples)
karakedi25: No language, and especially elven languages, is static
Eonwe Valar: Some change less than others, though.
Menelvagor Valar: Though I would reckon Estarion would more quickly pick up on any differences between Sindarin and Cuivienen Elvish rather than Westron.
Eonwe Valar: Or at least it's implied that the languages of Amanyar changed less in general than those of the Umanyar.
karakedi25: He doesn't speak Cuivienen Elvish. It probably doesn't exist any more except in its descendant languages.
karakedi25: Yes, less but they weren't static. The Noldor were exceptional in creating language change.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, which is why I said "some change less than others" :}
Menelvagor Valar: well, Cuivienen Elvish is for a lack of a better name, as he has grown up near Cuivienen.
karakedi25: I'd call it Avarin
Eonwe Valar: There's notes in Book 11 of HoME I believe that goes over many of the differences among the Elvish languages.
Menelvagor Valar: Sindarin = Avarin :-D
Eonwe Valar: Sindarin is an Eldarin languages ;]
Eonwe Valar: Avarin "Refusers" :}
Menelvagor Valar: And isn't Eldar the name for all Elves?
Menelvagor Valar: first-born?
Eonwe Valar: Eldar came to be only those who took the journey.
karakedi25: No, only the ones who left for Aman
Eonwe Valar: Quendi is the race-name.
Menelvagor Valar: ok, shows how rust I am :-)
Menelvagor Valar: doh.
karakedi25: Sindarin is not the same as Avarin
Menelvagor Valar: regardless though.
karakedi25: It developed from the Eldarin spoken by the travelers in Beleriand after the Teleri were left behind.
Menelvagor Valar: Is it possible for Estarion to have learned Sindarin, or not?
karakedi25: Yes, of course it is
Menelvagor Valar: In such a short time?
karakedi25: depends on how much previous contact he's had
Menelvagor Valar: little to none.
Menelvagor Valar: only observings.
karakedi25: he could have learned to understand more than he can speak
karakedi25: He's already interacted enough in speech to indicate that he knows a fair amount of Sindarin.
Menelvagor Valar: most of the time we've used Westron.
Menelvagor Valar: I might say that he's picked up a crude understanding of Sindarin, much like someone in 2nd grade might have a crude understanding of a 2nd language.
Menelvagor Valar: or 9th grade.. or whatever... middle school / high school thingy :-D
karakedi25: more like an immigrant, who isn't seeking perfect accuracy
karakedi25: he will probably understand considerably more than he can speak
Menelvagor Valar: you forget that most immigrants take years to do that.
Menelvagor Valar: I have had months of non-interaction and a month of interaction at best.
karakedi25: Many immigrants learn very disfluent language quickly, so they can function
Menelvagor Valar: true, but they would have to actively partake in interacting.
Eonwe Valar: There's the chance he's from the Tatyar Quendi, from whom the Noldor were drawn. They would likely have a penchant for picking up languages as well.
karakedi25: they learn to understand a lot
Menelvagor Valar: Yeah, I reckon that, but even that is basic at best.
karakedi25: what are you aiming for, Menel?
Menelvagor Valar: It is for the purpose of how much of the Sindarin chat you guys are having I can understand :-D
Menelvagor Valar: and whether I can figure out the rest by simple means of deduction.
karakedi25: I'd guess you'll pick up the main points but might miss out on lesser ones
karakedi25: unless you've been paying attention during the trip
karakedi25: btw, how would an Avar who has little contact with Mirkwood elves learn Westron?
Menelvagor Valar: good question :-D
karakedi25: :-D
Eonwe Valar: He might recognize the Elvish words within it.
karakedi25: Not too many of those--but in that case, he'd also recognize more in Sindarin
karakedi25: And those that are in Westron would be very heavily changed
Menelvagor Valar: True, but you have to remember that for most of the time I have traveled with this group there has been a dwarf present and therefore the use of Westron was much more heavy than the use of Sindarin.
Menelvagor Valar: And it's quite... annoying that after 5 years of RP'ing now I figure out I may not have been able to communicate at all with everyone ^^
ArPharazonV: Back.
karakedi25: which may be a good reason to let it ride and not make an issue of it
Menelvagor Valar: aye :-(
karakedi25: Group conversation may be in Westron, but the elves are likely to use Sindarin in speaking with each other
ArPharazonV: If they do not wish Frali to overhear. Or maybe Estarion.
karakedi25: or just because it's comfortable for them
ArPharazonV: Well yes, but we've travelled with Dwarves since the beginning of the RP. We should be rather comfortable with it.
ArPharazonV: Or maybe not Meren :-)
Menelvagor Valar: No, you will always be more comfortable with your home language.
Menelvagor Valar: However much I prefer to use English over Dutch, I always tend to move back to Dutch when able to.
ArPharazonV: Yes, but we might also be used to using it in company, and therefore slip less easily into our home language unless we wish to hold our conversation secret.
karakedi25: Meren knows and uses Westron, but she is likely to use Sindarin under normal circumstances with her folk.
karakedi25: Frali isn't listening all the time
ArPharazonV: When I went to England last summer for a week, I soon found myself thinking in English completely, and took a bit getting used to Dutch again when I came back.
Menelvagor Valar: did you go alone?
ArPharazonV: Well, yes. Though there was at least one other person there who could speak Dutch, but even we did not converse in Dutch.
ArPharazonV: He was from Belgium.
Menelvagor Valar: Belgian Dutch is not exactly Dutch, as you know full well :-D
Menelvagor Valar: Much like Scottish English is not exactly British English, let alone American English :-)
ArPharazonV: Still, the point is, if you're used to talking a certain language for a while, you'll less likely fall back to it during small windows.
Menelvagor Valar: true.
ArPharazonV: you're
ArPharazonV: *
Menelvagor Valar: However, we've been taught to use English from a very young age.
Menelvagor Valar: Elves are taught Westron but very rarely use it, or even encounter it.
Menelvagor Valar: we encounter English every day from the earliest days of our lives.
Menelvagor Valar: It is for that reason that we are really comfortable around other languages, but the French for example will go to any length if at all possible to speak French.
ArPharazonV: Hmm. Perhaps. But you must also take into account that we Elves have had hundreds of years to learn it, even though we don't use it as often we should still be able to switch easily, and we have been talking in Westron for most of the time for at least a week now or however long our adventure's lasted so far.
Iryenth has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: some months since the start I reckon.
Menelvagor Valar: or a month or so.
ArPharazonV: A month? That seems awfully long, considering we never stopped anywhere longer than a night or two.
Menelvagor Valar: "old habits die hard" my friend :-D
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: true, but at some point we calculated distances and reckoned it would take about a week to traverse Mirkwood breadth wise.
ArPharazonV: I think that if you start adding up our nights since the start of the RP we won't make it to two weeks.
Menelvagor Valar: which means a week to and fro, plus the journey to Erebor.
ArPharazonV: Wow, we'd better alter some posts then.
Menelvagor Valar: nope :-)
Menelvagor Valar: thing is, not even in books is it always clear how much time has passed.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Anyways... I will try and figure out this week how to respond, however, I am afraid that it'll be rather impossible since it was Calion who gave the Orc Sword to Fralí, not Estarion.
ArPharazonV: We've done a good deal of time planning for our RP, and I'm pretty sure we settled on a day or two to ride through Mirkwood, or at least the majority of it (west gate to the Halls)
Eonwe Valar: Just recovered my internet
ArPharazonV: Aiyata
ArPharazonV: You had a different sword, then?
Eonwe Valar: QUick comment: Westron has spread pretty far and acts as a common language even among orcs, so it's possible that even the Avari have picked it up.
Menelvagor Valar: Estarion wielded and Orc sword for a very short time, while he was under the effects of the Enchanted River, possibly the same, not sure.
Menelvagor Valar: I reckoned as much Eonwe, thanks :-)
ArPharazonV: All the way at Cuivienen, Eonwe?
Menelvagor Valar: I've been in the west for months Phar.
Eonwe Valar: "To Cuivienen ther eis no returning" :}
ArPharazonV: True.
Eonwe Valar: *there is
Menelvagor Valar: I kinda broke that rule a long time ago :P
VardaValar1: Short bit: you can speak Westron just fine. :-)
ArPharazonV: So when did I pick up this sword then? Wasn't that at the river also?
Menelvagor Valar: Aye.
Menelvagor Valar: I read back up on that part.
ArPharazonV: But.. it was a different sword?
ArPharazonV: Oh, you're not sure.
Menelvagor Valar: you said something like: "Would you like an Orc Trophy?" picking up the sword of the orc that Frali had slain, quite possibly the same orc Estarion grabbed his sword from when in his delirious state an orc was beheaded near him.
Menelvagor Valar: It is never indicated anywhere it's the same sword that was flung from Estarion's hand.
Menelvagor Valar: It is quite possibly so though.
ArPharazonV: Bother. Will need to reread for myself, hopefully understanding my own motivation.
Menelvagor Valar: But still, the effect on Estarion would have been minimal, if even there at all, since he was acting delirious from the Enchanted River, under the spell of a Nightmare, not from the sword.
Menelvagor Valar: The sword having some strange effect was added much later, and I didn't even know of it until I read up on the story an hour past.
ArPharazonV: "Quickly rolling back over the turf, Calion put his hand on the Orcish sword Meren had knocked away from Estarion."
ArPharazonV: Yeah. Same sword.
Menelvagor Valar: ok, missed that part :-)
Menelvagor Valar: still, Estarion would have little knowledge of it :-)
ArPharazonV: Aye, that's true.
Menelvagor Valar: remember, he came to with a horse standing on him and a dwarf sitting on him :-D
karakedi25: No one knew it was ensorceled until Frali noticed the runes.
ArPharazonV: I picked it up in desperation, to defend myself from a spider, then handed it to Frali.
Menelvagor Valar: Same here, I picked it up during a fever dream.
Menelvagor Valar: it would have had no effect on either of us.
karakedi25: Frali's memory may be faulty, too.
Menelvagor Valar: Nah, it's a good bit of story, I do like it :-)
Menelvagor Valar: oh... you mean like that... yeah, I guess :-)
ArPharazonV: Faulty memory? Quick, to the computer store.
Menelvagor Valar: nononono, hardware store.
ArPharazonV: Could also work.
Menelvagor Valar: dwarves are made up of iron and nails.
ArPharazonV: I thought they were made of rock.
Menelvagor Valar: gardening center then!
Menelvagor Valar: Anyways, I'm heading to bed. Good night everyone, and perhaps until next week ^^
ArPharazonV: Good night!
Menelvagor Valar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Heh. Menel's mention of dwarves being made up of iron and nails reminds me of a rhyme from Wintersmith, starting with "Iron enough to make a nail".
ArPharazonV: Well, saving and sending transcript.
ArPharazon-V (8:09:15 PM):    saved
ArPharazon-V (8:13:19 PM):    And sent
ArPharazon-V (8:13:26 PM):    Namarie!
EonweValar (9:26:32 PM):    The Lich King is dead :}
karakedi25 (9:26:42 PM):    Congratulations
VardaValar1 (9:55:57 PM):    Now that the Lich King is down and we have our screenies, time to see what happened in updated LotRO.
karakedi25 (9:56:05 PM):    yay!
VardaValar1 (9:56:21 PM):    Bofur and Nob headed that way to do some leveling. :-)
VardaValar1 (9:56:47 PM):    Happy Memorial Day!
karakedi25 (9:56:53 PM):    same to you
VardaValar1 (9:58:24 PM):    More installing? o well. *joins the kitchen raid*
VardaValar1 (9:59:37 PM):    Oh, and Sauron did that run on one hour's sleep.  He's going to bed now.
VardaValar1 (10:31:38 PM):    Namarie!
karakedi25 (10:31:45 PM):    namarie