ArPharazonV: I could fund that personally if you needed that, 100g is easily gotten
VardaValar1: Yes, I bring full members into the LotRO kin, and did that when recruiting for WoW back in the day.
VardaValar1: Or just forget the branch. If you folks were going to recruit there, it would have happened by now.
VardaValar1: Just stick to a shadow guild, friends in Valar channel.
VardaValar1: We've done that in many games.
Menelvagor Valar: even tried that.
ArPharazonV: We still have that. We have a channel all of us are in, and we... ehrm... talk there.... from time to time?
Menelvagor Valar: I think I did find a half dozen people who seemed interested...
Menelvagor Valar: but after giving them the guild information and web address and all that, most of them simply disappeared.
AriehnV: they never made any effort to contact me or asked about the Valar guild as such
Menelvagor Valar: Aye Arien.
AriehnV: Varda warned me actually warned me to give them first the web adress and then send them off and away
VardaValar1: That sounds like a misquote. : )
AriehnV: that might have driven them off
Menelvagor Valar: well...
Menelvagor Valar: our standards and requirements have a long lasting history of driving people off.
Menelvagor Valar: but in my opinion has the greater merit of keeping those we'd actually really love to have with us.
VardaValar1: I seem to be able to bring people in, but I don't send them away with nothing but the site address.
AriehnV: :-) second on that Menel but its hard to find the standards of the Valar guild in our society today
VardaValar1: I try to test them on the spot and make sure they have the contact info they get from having the site.
VardaValar1: They are still there, plenty of people.
VardaValar1: I have been remiss in recruiting. Just playing instead. *pushes self to get back to doing it*
Menelvagor Valar: Oh, I don't send them away...
Menelvagor Valar: I
give them the site address so they can gather some information on their
own, but for some reason I don't seem to be able to find them
AriehnV: same here aye Menel
Menelvagor Valar: One of them I actually kept in contact with for a while, but eventually lost contact as well.
VardaValar1: If they seem to be the kind of people you want to be around and said they read LotR, you can give them the friend channel.
VardaValar1: That gives them contact again in any name.
Menelvagor Valar: tried that.
Menelvagor Valar: I think that at best, we had 2 other people in there.
Menelvagor Valar: and that was on a blue monday.
VardaValar1: Do you try to test in a chat with them when you meet them? It can be informal.
Menelvagor Valar: I always do :-)
VardaValar1: They don't even have to know it's a test.
AriehnV: I had contact with Theoden for a while , he used to be on there but he vanished there as well
Menelvagor Valar: I always like quizzes and quizzing :-)
VardaValar1: Ok, but the group is disbanded in Argent Dawn. That is news, thank you for letting us know.
VardaValar1: I won't expect it to reform.
AriehnV: i will be keeping my eyes open
VardaValar1: You are all always welcome with us in the Americas too, of course. : )
VardaValar1: Menel, you mentioned the US servers. Have you made it into Lothar
i could not see any way ahead at the moment with forming a branch as
you have it on the us servers , i think it had to be done
Menelvagor Valar: Oh yes, but I'm not on there very frequently.
Menelvagor Valar: and if I am, there's hardly anyone there.
VardaValar1: Did you join the friend channel there?
Menelvagor Valar: first thing I believe.
Menelvagor Valar: but I may be wrong, have just flitted in and out.
VardaValar1: Sometimes it is very active, sometimes not. [note: Menel's druid joined the Lothar branch with Varda's help during the meeting. Elwing was there
VardaValar1: On to LotRO
VardaValar1: Indis, are you still here? : )
karakedi25: We've had great attendance since Mirkwood came out.
karakedi25: And we're beginning to do more and more as a kinship, which is great from my point of view.
VardaValar1: More high level, I think you're referrring to especially?
Mains and alts continue to reach level cap (65) and learn the new
things in the expansion: skirmishes--quite fun--and the new quests.
karakedi25: Yes, but lower levels are banding together somewhat more too.
AriehnV: I have actually been grouping with one of Indis alts and Malrador for one of the epic books
AriehnV: we freed Dori yet again with rampaging success
karakedi25: we have a way to go, but one day I hope to see us work through the epic story arc together, in groups
karakedi25: (Malradir = Eomer)
karakedi25: That's about it--lots of action in lotro and lots of fun. Very active kinship now.
karakedi25: There was a new patch this week, and some bugs are fixed
karakedi25: any other lotro players have anything to add?
AriehnV: my burglar reached lvvl 35 :-)
karakedi25: :-) and mine reached 65 :-)
karakedi25: (btw, your burg and my captain are close in level and could hunt together sometimes)
Menelvagor Valar: the last I have been on, my comp crashed at the moment my last character was about to lose his chance on getting undying.
AriehnV: and and managed in that pug group just now to get some nasty trolls and orc captains in dol dinen afer a few hours search bu
AriehnV: anyway thats it from me
Menelvagor Valar: hmmm...
Menelvagor Valar: Dol Dinen...
Menelvagor Valar: is that an instance?
karakedi25: For those who don't know lotro, Dol Dinen is a tough level 32-35 area with dense mobs.
AriehnV: its an outdoor instance if u like
AriehnV: with elites in between normal
Menelvagor Valar: so with every pull you get like 2-3 mobs?
karakedi25: no, it's just an area, but it has some very challenging quests for people at quest level
karakedi25: frequently, Menel
AriehnV: sometimes aye
karakedi25: One of the capstones of the North Downs area
Menelvagor Valar: and what was the difference between elite and signature mobs again?
karakedi25: a lot more morale
AriehnV: helped me a bit to get the hang of fellow ship manouveres and the roll of a burglar tho
karakedi25: signatures can be soloed, but for most classes, elites can't
VardaValar1: Pardon, comp is having a hard time with so much up, had to close a lot.
AriehnV: *role * even
karakedi25: np, we've had a nice little chat about lotro
karakedi25: anything else from lotro players?
karakedi25: (for non-lotro players, morale = hit points)
Menelvagor Valar: Any thoughts on Hunters should be Tanks Indis?
VardaValar1: We are still in the LotRO weekend for welcome back, with high experience and no cost for rent-a-horses. : )
karakedi25: I've never used my hunter as a tank, so I have no opinion.
karakedi25: Oh right-- +5% xp for the period.
VardaValar1: The only time hunters were used correctly as tanks was on the Watcher, and they changed the instance.
karakedi25: maybe Varda does; her main is a hunter
Menelvagor Valar: tihi :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Hunters can tank anything with enough healing and / or a bit below their usual level :-)
karakedi25: (xp on mob kills, btw, not quest rewards)
Menelvagor Valar: ergo, the quest reward has been enhanced by the bonus on killing the mobs.
VardaValar1: Currently the most activity by Valarites in a single place is in LotRO on Landroval server.
VardaValar1: This is the nearest we've come to being back to Diablo days.
VardaValar1: I'm thankful they allow Europeans to join us. It was not always so.
AriehnV: :-) it should have been like that on wow ... , sigh , maybe one day ...
VardaValar1: We need a particular time for the Europeans to get together in LotRO however, as Menel suggested long ago.
suggested what is afternoon in the Americas, a time that is a bit
between the two main running times for people there, but not out of
bounds for a number of us.
karakedi25: in the meantime, it's been fun grouping with you
VardaValar1: On to Tolkien:
VardaValar1: I spoke with Eonwe.
VardaValar1: He is very occupied with work. He suggested that his rp Auros character
VardaValar1: is watching for orcs while he trusts us to handle the spiders.
VardaValar1: I'll go ahead and shoot the last spider unless one of you has another plan?
VardaValar1: Our downed elf can finish coming out of his healing and get up, if Duroch and Frali allow it. : )
VardaValar1: Then we should get on our horses and move out.
VardaValar1: That should give you time to set up the ambush, and just say the appropriate amount of time passed.
karakedi25: They will allow it if they see that Estarion has regained his wits.
VardaValar1: The ambush power will be lessened as the Guilhine has been mostly washed from the air and needs to build back up.
Menelvagor Valar: Estarion will recover his wits shortly.
VardaValar1: Estarion will need to say something.
VardaValar1: Don't need to take much longer. Frali already returned to his senses.
ArPharazonV: so we should have Estarion post first and wake up, while... well... you can take care of the last spider I guess
ArPharazonV: and then we move out
ArPharazonV: and then I'll start on the ambush-story?
VardaValar1: The medicine is intended for elves and Meren knows how to handle the doses.
karakedi25: we are planning an orc ambush?
ArPharazonV: we are, yes
ArPharazonV: led by my brother
ArPharazonV: further on in our journey
VardaValar1: Not an orc ambush, we are going around the ones at the river.
ArPharazonV: will they have orcs?
VardaValar1: The other ambush farther along.
ArPharazonV: I'm sure they'll have orcs. Doesn't need to be many. Just what could be gathered.
VardaValar1: Isn't it a bit boring lying there under a hoof and a pile of plate armor with a beard?
Menelvagor Valar: Estarion has just recovered... more or less :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Estarion nodded slowly to Meren, indicating that he had heard her."I'm okay... just... woozy still."
Menelvagor Valar: short and to the point :-)
VardaValar1: "Can you ride?"
Menelvagor Valar: Not for the next few minutes I think.
VardaValar1: "Just clutch onto the mane and we'll have the horse come along with ours."
karakedi25: FAinan has a spider to kill in the next few minutes, and we need to pack up and load the horses. You'll have time
Menelvagor Valar: Estarion
wasn't exactly a master horse-elf to begin with, and with reduced
agility, I think I'd flop over the horse at the first movement, if not
even at trying to mount.
Menelvagor Valar: but should be okay enough to do clutching in a few minutes :-)
VardaValar1: Going to pull up the browser. Had to close everything to avoid comp thrashing.
VardaValar1: Meanwhile Arien has an interesting thing to ask about.
Menelvagor Valar: oof.
Menelvagor Valar: naughty comp.
VardaValar1: We could use an article on the Numenoreans setting up colonies in Middle-earth
VardaValar1: Go ahead, Arien, while I try to get this rp stuff pulled up and typed.
ArPharazonV: ooh, hmm... there's a lot of ground to cover there
ArPharazonV: known Middle-earth, or Umbar and further south?
ArPharazonV: Lond Daer, Tal-Elmar...
AriehnV: i need a bit research material for a new story :-)
AriehnV: thats the reason behind the question
AriehnV: more northern regions i think
AriehnV: realms like cardolan and Tharbad and such#
AriehnV: and Osgiliath of course but anything whats known about that period would actually help
AriehnV: or about the places
karakedi25: response to Estarion posted
ArPharazonV: Oh, you mean Third Age then?
ArPharazonV: I assumed you meant colonies during the time of Numenor
AriehnV: nah third age early , the time of the colonies then after they were here .. that is i am not quite sure of the time of my story
Menelvagor Valar: Aye, those names you have just given signify the greater realm of Gondor during its peak, which was after Numenor sank.
something towards the effect that an observant and wise inhabitant
maybe glimpses something is going awfully amiss with their king and the
AriehnV: i think fits more in that period
ArPharazonV: Arnor and Gondor were founded after Numenor's fall, in the last 100 years of the Second Age
ArPharazonV: most of their history and "decay" took place in the Third Age
karakedi25: By Elendil and his sons.
ArPharazonV: I assume it's this "decay", this slow downfall of Arnor and Gondor, that Arien is looking for then?
AriehnV: the time of the decay i thats what what i need aye
Menelvagor Valar: So, would this time be during this decay, or after most of Gondor and Arnor had already collapsed?
VardaValar1: Ok, posted after Indis'.
AriehnV: during and heading towards the end . .. someone noticing the king is being corrupted (by a ring which of course he doesnt know)
ArPharazonV: I'm not sure any of the kings of Arnor and Gondor fell to a ring, or that being mentioned in the Appendices or anything
ArPharazonV: and I'm probably wrong here, but didn't the Nazgul already make an appearance late Second Age?
AriehnV: who were the ring wraiths then?
AriehnV: not kings?
karakedi25: Tolkien doesn't specify except perhaps for Khamul the Easterling
AriehnV: that or just soldiers or captains with a right mind set for the Dark Lords plans??
AriehnV: oops minus one ?
kings of Men, yes, but not of the Western lineage I thought... maybe
some Dark Numenorean noblemen, though that's just a theory....
ArPharazonV: my guess would be kings of the darker races of Men of Middle-Earth during the Second Age
karakedi25: it's all speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't get at least one of the King's Men.
AriehnV: of course this topic and time and period leaves realms for speculation and hence fan fiction :-)
"The Nazgul first appeared in the form of Wraiths around 2251 of the
Second Age." That's what I found through a quick google, but I'm sure
it has its sources... in "Of the Rings of Power" most likely
ArPharazonV: 2251 Second Age. This was long before the fall of Numenor.
ArPharazonV: About 1000 years earlier in fact.
OK Varda has posted, so we need to decide on next steps in the
roleplay. Spider is dead, Estarion is awake, and Frali is liberated.
Joldahks has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Who the Nazgul are, is unknown, indeed the only name given is that of Khamul the Easterling, as Indis said.
VardaValar1: We will be getting on the horses and moving out
AriehnV: ok i ll post frali then , just a short *was a pleasure* phrase with a polite bow
Some names were made up for some odd cardgame or something I believe,
one of which is supposed to be a Dark Numenorean "queen" of sorts [note: card game is Ice Crown
AriehnV: and gathering things of course
VardaValar1: Normally we'd let Auros give the order, but Fainan can suggest it.
VardaValar1: Gathering should be extremely quick, no need of major prep.
VardaValar1: Most of our stuff is on the horses.
AriehnV: Frali will want his axes back
VardaValar1: Fainan is picking up her arrrows now.
AriehnV: so he ll pull them out of the spider
VardaValar1: Aye, you can do that while you do the dialogue.
VardaValar1: I'll have Fainan get us on the way.
karakedi25: I'll add something to mine about Meren packing up her herb kit ensuring that her gear is ready for the road.
Menelvagor Valar: I'll gather my senses :-)
ArPharazonV: Calion will pick up his daggers, should Meren take care of the legwound first?
Menelvagor Valar: the rest of them anyways.
Menelvagor Valar: the rest of his gear he should still be carrying :-)
I also have an Orcish blade. I doubt I should be carrying this with me
on our journey, though it might be an interesting touch in the ambush
ArPharazonV: But since we do not know this is coming, I don't think I have any reason to not leave it behind?
VardaValar1: Take care of the wound, aye.
karakedi25: ah, Meren should take a look at the leg wound indeed. Calion can bring his wound over to her :-)
karakedi25: I'll fix my modification.
VardaValar1: If Frali wants the blade as a souvenier or as an addition to his arms, he can.
ArPharazonV: I wonder if Calion has a sword, anyway. Have I ever used anything but daggers?
Menelvagor Valar: nope.
ArPharazonV: oh dear, this'll require a chapter 1 reread no doubt
VardaValar1: Feel free to look back and check. Didn't you use a sword with Auros in the sparring?
Menelvagor Valar: I did check I think.
Menelvagor Valar: Calion will most likely have a sword though.
Menelvagor Valar: even if he would barely use it.
Menelvagor Valar: he is a noble after all.
ArPharazonV: probably attached to the horse, then
Menelvagor Valar: Nobles hardly go anywhere without a sword
ArPharazonV: or I wouldn't have been diving for the Orcish sword
VardaValar1: Aye, probably on the horse.
Menelvagor Valar: of course there might be another explanation.
Legolas didn't use a sword either.
Menelvagor Valar: but instead a set of quite long curved daggers. [note: movie Legolas used two long knives; book Legolas used one long knife
karakedi25: my post is fixed to open the way for Calion
VardaValar1: Legolas used a long knife and a bow.
Menelvagor Valar: almost as long as short swords really.
ArPharazonV: And a bow. I don't have a bow. I think. That's what I use my throwing daggers for.
also acted as if he were incognito, not mentioning his rank. He may
have preferred to leave a sword behind if it was a rank symbol.
Menelvagor Valar: possibly.
Menelvagor Valar: but then again, to the Council of Elrond only certain dignitaries were invited. [note:
in the book, Elrond did not invite the Fellowship to come. The
Fellowship people were apparently coming in by random coincidence all
at the same time. Elrond recognized the hand of the Valar and went with
Anyway, if I already have a sword of my own, I have no need for the
Orc-blade, and will discard it after it has served its usefulness as a
makeshift walking stick.
VardaValar1: You have Fainan for the archer, no problem. Throwing daggers are cool for range, but you need melee also.
ArPharazonV: I could present it to Frali as a trophy?
Menelvagor Valar: and he did mention being the Prince of Mirkwood in the Council.
Menelvagor Valar: Auros and Estarion are the tanks / melee dps :-D
VardaValar1: Elrond mentioned to Frodo that Legolas was the son of King Thranduil.
ArPharazonV: I do have a bow.
ArPharazonV: In my first post I mentioned
He also threw a bow in his package with a moderate amount of arrows,
but he wasn't half as skilled at archery as he was at throwing.
ArPharazonV: That was my very first post in chapter 1. I wonder if I've ever mentioned it since.
VardaValar1: Good to know you have one. Hate to see you run out of daggers. Arrows are more easily made.
ArPharazonV: I think I've mentioned a good amount of stashes of daggers hidden around the forest, hollow treestumps etc.
ArPharazonV: It's also why I've developed the dagger that returns to me ;-)
VardaValar1: Good for while we're in Mirkwood at least.
ArPharazonV: Probably due to some Warcraft-influence. I always preferred throwing daggers for my rogue there over bows and guns.
VardaValar1: Gives our group variety as well.
ArPharazonV: Allright, I'll see if I can't whip up a post.
VardaValar1: Yay : )
VardaValar1: I tried to give you folks a few comments to work with.
AriehnV: nice one aye , good and i got a bit of a more frame to work with for the story actually
karakedi25: yes, and Meren is ready for Calion and his wounded leg :-)
AriehnV: maybe i ll change to the appearance of the grave wraiths and
them becoming haunted plces of terror or something like that :-) i ll
work something out#
There is a ton of information in Appendix A
about the Kings of Arnor
and Gondor, Arien. If you want to stay "canon" I don't think you'll be
able to use a Ring this way (unless it's not one of the Great), but in
any case, the Appendix
should help for whatever framework (eg: which
king's reign) you want to use.
[note: our Tolkien Site's Kings article section is book researched. We also have the Timeline and Rings of Power.
AriehnV: okido i ll search the appndixes aye , cheers yes and i was thinking of one of the Great Rings
AriehnV: first at least
AriehnV: someone who watches a friend , or commander being turned sowly or so
AriehnV: but might change it
VardaValar1: If you want to work with one of the Nine Rings, that would give you such a story.
VardaValar1: Some of the Nine meant well. Would be a tragic thing to see the change.
ArPharazonV: Yes, but it wouldn't work in Arnor or Gondor. The Nazgul had long appeared when Numenor fell.
AriehnV: maybe two stories for each of those topics hehe
ArPharazonV: If you want to make a story about one of the Nazgul, you'll probably have no choice but to place it in the Second Age instead.
VardaValar1: Most were heads of colonies in Middle-earth, and were called the Black Numenoreans.
AriehnV: which would back the theory that they might have been leaders of one of the Numeonoreans who founded the colonies
ArPharazonV: That is indeed the most viable option, yes.
AriehnV: yes the black numenorians
ArPharazonV: Of course the Black numenoreans were located to the South, I recall. Umbar and further.
ArPharazonV: Pelargir and more to the North were in the hands of the Faithful, or founded before the separation.
There are some stories of Wild Men vs Numenoreans, and of the conflict
between Lond Daer and the natives, but I'm not sure if what we know as
"Black Numenoreans", aka the King's Men, had much to do with it.
I should look into it. Is there anything you recall about the
possession of colonies between Lindon and Pelargir since the
Numenoreans split into 2?
AriehnV: aye the Wild Men vs Numenor was the topic or background to "Bonds without hope", my last story
also, if this is turning into a monologue, stop me... I tend to get
rather carried away when it comes to the Second Age and Numenor ;-)
ArPharazonV: Post made.
AriehnV: hehe no worries :-) ia m still following it and pondering and thinking loud and commenting but getting a bit sleepy
to your last question .. there might be somewhere in the books or
appendices about that time but ill check that out myself in the coming
days and weeks, i ve got a week holiday :-)
VardaValar1: Aye, use the books. They give you the correct info and stuff on the side for more ideas. Best way.
AriehnV: oki do friends :-) thanks for the support
ArPharazonV: Unfinished Tales
might have some information on the Second Age colonies.
ArPharazonV: I know there's quite a few pieces on Lond Daer, for example.
VardaValar1: Frali might want to respond to Calion.
VardaValar1: Meren also could respond.
seem to state that Sauron held the Nine
Rings in order to keep greater control over them. But LotR
stating that the Nazgul have their own rings.
karakedi25: I will soon
That's the only contradiction though. There is no mention of Frodo
seeing the Rings on the Nazgul's hands, nor of any Ring left behind by
the Witch-King at his death.
ArPharazonV: Could Gandalf simply have been wrong?
VardaValar1: The Nazgul don't keep their own rings though. Sauron holds them.
ArPharazonV: Indeed. Which Gandalf contradicts.
ArPharazonV: "Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old
ArPharazonV: kings, sorcerers, warriors
no actual Numenorean "king" is mentioned to have fallen, so the "kings"
would've been of the native races, as might have been the sorcerers?
any Black Numenoreans would probably be the "warriors" then, unless
they'd either picked up sorcery or claimed themselves king of their own
ArPharazonV: really grasping at straws here
VardaValar1: Gwaihir says hi. : )
is a bit of an odd subject
Minas Morgul is stated to mean "Tower of Sorcery" and there are several
references to sorcerers in the Dark Age or simply in Sauron's service,
which would associate it completely with "evil"
ArPharazonV: was the Witch-King ever called a sorcerer?
ArPharazonV: hi Gwaihir :-)
magic seems quite rare in Middle-Earth... there appears to be magic
among the Elves of some sort, or at least the illusion of magic, but
anything potent enough to be called "sorcery" is hardly touched on
VardaValar1: Galadriel was touchy about comparing what the elves did to what Sauron did.
ArPharazonV: Oh, it seems that it is explicitly stated that 3 of the Nazgul were Numenorean lords, indeed
VardaValar1: Her mirror was magic, as was the phial she gave to Frodo, but not "sorcery".
ArPharazonV: though they wouldn't have been actual kings
ArPharazonV: true, Varda
ArPharazonV: same would go for the Elvish rope I suppose
Menelvagor Valar: I believe Galadriel called it "magic" to make the term and issue easier to grasp for Frodo.
Menelvagor Valar: that
would indicate that it wasn't exactly magic, but more like an innate
ability, perhaps something that one person would be able to become a
grandmaster armorer, and yet another could not due to not having the
VardaValar1: Oddly JRRT says Valar Lords but Valar Queens.
AriehnV: post in response to Estarion
Hmm. Black Numenorean nobles could have cast the illusion over nearby
natives that they were kings, and that they ruled them as subjects...
though in the reckoning of Numenor they would not have been accounted
VardaValar1: Only Manwe is called the king, and even then he is listed as one of the lords in one spot.
Menelvagor Valar: I didn't post anything since the start...
There is little known about the Black Numenorean colonies to the South,
with the exception of Umbar, and even that was mostly expanded upon in
the Third Age only.
VardaValar1: Even Sauron and Melkor are called Dark Lords.
Menelvagor Valar: hold on a sec... :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Arien, your post as well as your comment is rather confusing :-D
The Black Numenorean lords could've been drawn from there to become
Nazgul. There's nothing to state that the Nazgul originated in the
Northwest of Middle-Earth.
ArPharazonV: Indeed. I did not offer the sword to you. I just let it drop where I stood.
ArPharazonV: And said "It's yours to pick up" basically.
VardaValar1: Of the Witch-king, at Weathertop, he is the only one wearing a crown.
VardaValar1: It's on his helm.
AriehnV: oops its Calion lol
ArPharazonV: Is Calion a bit rude? Throwing the sword on the ground and saying "Come pick it up"?
VardaValar1: He's having trouble walking
ArPharazonV: I intended it as simply discarding it when I found a horse to lean on and leaving it into the care of whoever wanted it.
VardaValar1: He leaned on his horse to accomodate Meren, while letting the sword fall on the ground.
AriehnV: ooh ok .. getting a bit unconcentrated
ArPharazonV: I don't blame you. I think we've got 3 topics at once going here now.
Menelvagor Valar: it's absolutely great!
ArPharazonV: what is?
VardaValar1: We have some side-windowing going too. ;-)
ArPharazonV: I wonder when the Numenoreans split up. It might not have happened before the Nazgul.
ArPharazonV: Wiki's only useful so far, it might not be accurate... at some point I'm going to have to go upstairs and pick up a book.
VardaValar1: o noes!
Going by Wiki so far though, the splitup appeared around Tar-Ancalimon
in 2221... a mere 30 years before the appearance of the Nazgul, which
puts it all in a tricky timeframe
AriehnV: ok changed post#
Now we have: colonies on Middle-Earth ruled by Numenoreans, appearance
of the Nazgul which was probably not long after they were created
(though who's to say they were all created at once?) at 2251, and the
split between Black Numenoreans and the Faithful around the same time
Menelvagor Valar: I must admit I am not paying as much attention as I should be...
which came first? was there already a growing shadow before the schism
(sp?) was more clearly expressed, what rule were the colonies under?
Were the Nazgul taken from the King's Men, or before there even were
Menelvagor Valar: Oh, btw...
Menelvagor Valar: on another topic, unrelated to Tolkien :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I have a movie advice to give all of you :-)
ArPharazonV: if Arien wants to place her story in that time, I am looking forward to reading it :-)
that would make a guess near that the Nazgul had been amongst the
Numenoreans that Sauron seduced into his following quite at the
beginning of his stay there
VardaValar1: Don't just guess. I strongly recommend actually reading it.
VardaValar1: It's not that long. : )
AriehnV: i will read it no worries :-)
Menelvagor Valar: actually, I think some of them were Southrons.
AriehnV: just speculating , but you have to admit the conclusion is not that off
ArPharazonV: 3 of them were Numenoreans, that much is clear
ArPharazonV: of high nobility, even
ArPharazonV: I'm just wondering at the moment what their relation in time was to the King's Men and the Faithful, and the Shadow on Numenor
VardaValar1: Why not take a few minutes and run get your book for this discussion? : )
if there already were King's Men, then I'd bet those 3 Nazgul were
King's Men, and most likely coming from the colonies of Umbar and
ArPharazonV: if not, they could come from anywhere
ArPharazonV: yeah, I'll grab a Sil
VardaValar1: Morgul-king, Morgul-lord, Witch-king
ArPharazonV: Tale of Years:
: Numenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts, shadow falls on Numenor
: Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre, rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins, about this time the Nazgul first appear
not much clarification there beyond the conclusion I'd already drawn,
except that the Shadow had already been around for a few hundred years
VardaValar1: Sil (note: typo, RotK as noted after this in detail
) note on the Black Numenoreans
VardaValar1: The great cape and land-locked firth of Umbar had been Numenorean land since days of old;
VardaValar1: but it was a stronghold of the King's Men, who were afterwards called the Black Numenoreans, corrupted by Sauron,
VardaValar1: and who hated above all the followers of Elendil.
VardaValar1: After the fall of Sauron, their race swiftly dwindled or became merged with the Men of Middle-earth
VardaValar1: , but they inherited without lessening their hatred of Gondor.
VardaValar1: Umbar, therefore, was only taken at great cost.
VardaValar1: end note quote.
ArPharazonV: is this in the Sil? could you be more specific?
Menelvagor Valar: most likely at the end of the Akallabeth (sp?)
VardaValar1: Appendix A iv "Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion" in a note.
VardaValar1: Return of the King
ArPharazonV: oh, not the Sil
Menelvagor Valar: drats it, missed it :-)
karakedi25: OK, I've replied in the RP.
VardaValar1: Thanks Indis
VardaValar1: The Lt. of Barad-dur was from the race of the Black Numenoreans.
"The Black Gate Opens"
AriehnV: right , friends, brothers and sisters and valarites ..
I"m trying to find the part about Numenor colonizing Umbar, but it does
not seem to be in either book except the note you just mentioned
AriehnV: (no .. its not Hamlet i know )
ArPharazonV: oh, Arien
ArPharazonV: I'm leaning against my own horse, not Meren's
ArPharazonV: I figured that wouldn't be a problem since the horses are standing together
ArPharazonV: but you did misinterpret it ;-)
AriehnV: indeed lol#
AriehnV: never mind correcteds
AriehnV: but i better go to bed now before i make Frodo an Elf and Aragorn a hobbit if ye take my meaning ^^
VardaValar1: It's really helpful to the story doing it this way together, thanks.
VardaValar1: Sleep well!
ArPharazonV: Namarie :-)
AriehnV: Namarie :-)
AriehnV: thanks for all your feed back on this topic thought it might trigger you :-)
ArPharazonV: Unfinished Tales
. Here we go. *runs up to get book*
AriehnV has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: which part of the unfinished tales?
Menelvagor Valar: ah, never mind, there's only 1 part :-)
ArPharazonV: I'm not sure yet.
VardaValar1: Post made. : )
VardaValar1: You're thinking of BoLT, aye. : )
Menelvagor Valar: I was, aye.
Menelvagor Valar: ok, what exactly are you looking for Pharzie? :-)
the statement that the King's Men had founded colonies to the South,
the most northenmost of which was Umbar, while Pelargir and further to
the North were in the hands of the Faithful.
Menelvagor Valar: look in Aldarion and Erendis.
has sources, maybe I can find something through here...
VardaValar1: In RotK "The Black Gate Opens", talking about the Lt. of Barad-dur, it says of the attitude of the Black Numenoreans:
ArPharazonV: what book could "TI" refer to?
ArPharazonV: ah, of course, "The Istari" in UT...
established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of
Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil
ArPharazonV: aye, those would be Umbar etc, maybe somewhat further south or further inland too
ArPharazonV: Ah! Peoples of Middle-Earth
, my next source
fladrifv has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Ah. Here's something.
ArPharazonV: HoME 12, Peoples of Middle-Earth
, the history of the Tale of Years of the Second Age
The Numenoreans now make permanent dwellings on the shores of
Middle-earth, seeking wealth and dominion; they build many havens and
ArPharazonV: The Elf-friends go chiefly to the North-west, but their strongest place is at Pelargir above the mouths of Anduin.
ArPharazonV: The King's Folk establish lordships in Umbar and Harad and in many other places on the coasts of the Great Lands.
ArPharazonV: That's not the exact quote I'm looking for, but it's pretty close....
ArPharazonV: it also says that to the end of that time the Ulairi appear
ArPharazonV: now we're getting somewhere ;-)
"Estrangement of Elf-friends and King's Men deepens. The King makes the
Elf-friends dwell in East, and their chief place becomes Romenna. Many
depart to settle on shores of N.W. Middle-earth. The King's folk as a
rule go further south."
In all, it would seem my quotes do not hit the mark as much as I'd
expected, and there may be sources among my literature that bear
greater information than that I've found tonight.
ArPharazonV: Only time will tell.
ArPharazonV: Still, they might be useful for Arien's story.
the site I linked has some nice speculation, the last section is all
about the Mouth of Sauron, which has some theories which you might
enjoy reading, though their viability is... doubtful
, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age"
VardaValar1: "Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerors, and warriors of old.
VardaValar1: "They obtained glory and great wealth yet it turned to their undoing.
VardaValar1: "They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable t them.
could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the
sun, and they could see things invisible to mortal men;
VardaValar1: "but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron.
VardaValar1: "And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning,
VardaValar1: "they fell under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's.
VardaValar1: "And they became for ever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows.
Menelvagor Valar: I found some references as to colonies in UT
Menelvagor Valar: though scarce and not exactly to the point either.
Nazgul were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants;
darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death."
VardaValar1: End quote.
ArPharazonV: "The Istari", Menel?
Menelvagor Valar: No.
Menelvagor Valar: in "Aldarion and Erendis".
Menelvagor Valar: I can't find the right quote at this point, but I've read through most of the tale and skimmed the rest.
Menelvagor Valar: suffice it to say that Aldarion the Mariner had no conscent from his father, Tar Meneldur.
ArPharazonV: Aldarion founded Lond Daer, I believe. A major colony on the northwest side of Middle-Earth, used for collecting timber.
Menelvagor Valar: Meneldur
curbed the cutting of trees for ship building on Númenor, so Aldarion
sought to have a haven to effect repairs elsewhere, in ME.
Menelvagor Valar: what that haven was called I do not know..
ArPharazonV: oh, before I forget, the main site to the Umbar-page I linked earlier is http://lalaith.vpsurf.de/M-earth.html
Menelvagor Valar: however, what I do know is that it was situated at the mouth of the Gwathir, which was to the south of Duillond.
ArPharazonV: seems to have a lot of interesting analyses and summaries, people might want to look into it
Menelvagor Valar: I could not find the Gwathir anywhere, but there is a resemblance with the Gwathló or greyflood.
ArPharazonV: good source-referencing too
VardaValar1: I'd really like to see us doing such things in articles.
Menelvagor Valar: there is also a reference of Aldarion visiting Galadriel near Tharbad, up the Gwathir when she resided somewhere in that area.
VardaValar1: We get enough collected to start up articles at some of these meetings.
ArPharazonV: Greyflood, yes, at the mouth of which is Lond Daer if you look at the map at the end of UT
ArPharazonV: Tharbad also lies on the Greyflood
Menelvagor Valar: it is :-)
Menelvagor Valar: and, as for Umbar itself.
VardaValar1: "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" has a ton on geography.
Menelvagor Valar: there is no reference within the tale of Aldarion and
Erendis, save that the Númenoreans did not yet feel the need to
ArPharazonV: doesn't really leave much room for speculation, in that case; it's quite obvious that Aldarion's haven was Lond Daer
Menelvagor Valar: therefore Lond Daer was simply an outpost, and nothing more.
ArPharazonV: at that point, yes
Menelvagor Valar: also,
it is suggested that Aldarion traveled far south and far east, beyond
the shores of ME, yet no mention is made (as far as I read) about any
of the peoples there.
but as time went on and the forests depleted, it became a significant
haven.... I believe it was called the Middle Haven somewhere, between
Lindon and Pelargir
Menelvagor Valar: Pelargir is mentioned.
Menelvagor Valar: I think.
of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil,
for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away;
ArPharazonV: Pelargir was way past Aldarion's time, though.
Menelvagor Valar: twas a lot of information to hold while looking for a single thing :-)
VardaValar1: then it talks about Herumor and Fuinur, evil lords of the Haradrim.
Menelvagor Valar: wasn't herumor named as one of the Nazgul in unofficial sources, such as card games?
VardaValar1: Those are two that might possibly have actually become Nazgul, although it doesn't actually say that.
VardaValar1: This passage is the basis for that, aye.
Menelvagor Valar: considering that Sauron went only for the mighty, that would be quite possible.
VardaValar1: There were no female Nazgul, card game notwithstanding. : )
ArPharazonV: If so, they were probably already Nazgul before this particular section, which takes place at the very end of the Second Age.
ArPharazonV: But that's not unheard of; the Witch-King took power in Angmar long, long after he became a Ring-wraith.
VardaValar1: Narsil shone with the light of the sun and the moon. Must have looked cool. : )
Menelvagor Valar: depends on the chronology of when Sauron took up residence in Mordor.
Menelvagor Valar: it should be about that time that the Nazgul first appeared.
ArPharazonV: Nope. The section Varda mentioned was at the end of the Second Age, after the establishment of Gondor and Arnor.
Menelvagor Valar: for it is there that Sauron betrayed whatshisname and forged the One Ring.
ArPharazonV: Over a thousand years since the Nazgul appeared, and over 1500 years since the forging of the Rings.
Menelvagor Valar: thanks Indis :-)
karakedi25: you're welcome
Menelvagor Valar: so it may be unlikely it was those particular two Lords.
Menelvagor Valar: but there were others before them, with just as much might and evil in their hearts.
ArPharazonV: impossible, I'd say, unless they were already Nazgul when they took up power in those lands
ArPharazonV: which, as I said, also has its precedents
VardaValar1: Now I'm finding the references to the Ulairi
VardaValar1: Telemnar's reign in Gondor, the Black Plague
Anyway. I'm going to sleep. I've enjoyed today's lore-hunt as it falls
right into my little corner of special interest, but the clock keeps
VardaValar1: 23rd of the line of Meneldil,
VardaValar1: Nighty night. : )
Menelvagor Valar: night night.
VardaValar1: "evil entered into the Black Land secretly, and the ashes of Gorgoroth were stirred as if by a cold wind,
ArPharazonV: saving and sending
VardaValar1: for dark shapes gathered there.
ArPharazonV: oh, and of course it speaks for itself that I want to see the rest of this meeting after my saved part
VardaValar1: "It is said that these were indeed
VardaValar1: ok :-)
VardaValar1: "the Ulairi,
VardaValar1: "whom Sauron called the Nazgul,
ArPharazonV (7:58:13 PM): saved
VardaValar1 (7:58:34 PM): "the Nine Ringwraiths that had long remained hidden,
Menelvagor Valar (7:58:59 PM): we will withhold the rest of the meeting just to spite you Pharzie, just like we always do *grins wickedly*
VardaValar1 (7:59:11 PM): "but returned now to prepare the ways of their Master, for he had begun to grow again."
VardaValar1 (7:59:31 PM): Nay, I shall give forth the light of what little remains, as is my wont.
Menelvagor Valar (7:59:55 PM): I was joking
VardaValar1 (7:59:57 PM): I'll stop now.
VardaValar1 (8:00:06 PM): Did I sound all that serious? : )
Menelvagor Valar (8:00:26 PM): strange, I had that very same thought *smile*
VardaValar1 (8:00:31 PM): You are supposed to be a constellation, a good one, in case you forgot?
ArPharazonV (8:00:37 PM): Oh,
and I should like to discuss the Tal-Elmar story one of these days.
It's an interesting perspective with a ton of obscure references I'd
like to analyse.
VardaValar1 (8:00:51 PM): Bring it up next Sunday. : )
ArPharazonV (8:00:56 PM): Remind me
VardaValar1 (8:01:12 PM): I'm asking you to remind me. O how circular!
Menelvagor Valar (8:01:15 PM): well,
Pharzie's statement just seemed to provoke such a response, as we / you
always put up the entire quilt from before or after anyone joined or
had to leave.
VardaValar1 (8:01:16 PM): a veritable ring.
VardaValar1 (8:01:28 PM): Aye, we do.
Menelvagor Valar (8:01:32 PM): seemed almost like an insult, but that may be weariness thinking.
VardaValar1 (8:01:48 PM): No insult taken here for sure.
VardaValar1 (8:02:02 PM): Rest, my friends, for the hour grows early for you.
VardaValar1 (8:02:12 PM): 'tis beyond late.
ArPharazonV (8:02:24 PM): *nod*
it just feels like the meeting ends shortly after I leave, and I for
one did not want to take the chance of letting you decide "It's not
Menelvagor Valar (8:02:29 PM): the weird thing is, that I have not left my bed since 6 hours ago, and surely have not woken for more than 2 before that.
VardaValar1 (8:02:53 PM): So, you say you wish to enter LotRO and slay evil there with your great rays of light?
ArPharazonV (8:03:08 PM): sent
VardaValar1 (8:03:14 PM): Thank you, Phar. : )
Menelvagor Valar (8:03:14 PM): I would, but for some reason I actually do feel really tired.
ArPharazonV (8:03:22 PM): namarie!
VardaValar1 (8:03:31 PM): It's that sunlight starting to blot out the stars.
VardaValar1 (8:03:34 PM): Namarie!
Menelvagor Valar (8:03:49 PM): not for at least 3 to 4 hours yet *grin*
ArPharazonV (8:03:58 PM) has left the room.
VardaValar1 (8:04:24 PM): I'm taking off too. : )
Menelvagor Valar (8:10:11 PM) has left the room.
karakedi25 (8:11:25 PM): good discussion, but I'll leave as well. Thanks for a great meeting
karakedi25 (8:11:31 PM): I've posted in the RP.
VardaValar1 (8:15:02 PM): I posted after you. : )
VardaValar1 (8:15:31 PM): I'm thinking LotRO thoughts.
VardaValar1 (8:15:37 PM): Are you still there too?
VardaValar1 (8:15:49 PM): Thinking about going for that last dab of exp.
karakedi25 (8:22:00 PM): I'm still here. The xp will last through tomorrow and maybe Tues
VardaValar1 (8:23:25 PM): yay!
karakedi25 (8:24:09 PM): come on in
karakedi25 (8:24:43 PM): bring Tim for Nanduhirion quests with Melkor, Eomer, and me
VardaValar1 (8:26:58 PM): I have Tim set up smack dab in the middle of a deeding area that took a long time to get to, in the Trollshaws.
VardaValar1 (8:27:56 PM): but it sounds like a good idea for the exp.
VardaValar1 (8:30:34 PM): ok, [I] at least read through all the email
VardaValar1 (8:30:46 PM): Going off AIM now.