Valar Guild

August 8, 2010 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

Back to News
Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (9)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Ecthelion-(V)/BFIIShotgunner, Eonwe Valar (presided Tolkien), Galdor-(V)/galdorandwe, Gilraen-(V)/Iryenth, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, TulkasValar61, VardaValar1 (presided business)

    Tolkien chat
Meeting begins
    Arien-(Valar) is on holiday, will miss the next two meetings.
    Fladrif-(V) is traveling.
    Tulkas-(Valar) is going on leave in ten days.
    Fun link
       Gwaihir-(Valar) requests Real ID Bnet info from other members who are willing to trade it with him.
       The ban against talking about the LotRO beta was lifted August 2nd.
    Facebook - some of us are friending each other. Most of those at the meeting were against us going as far as having a Valar Guild page or putting our Facebook info on the Membership page of our website.
    Forum for our guild: Complaints were made about the colors and format, which are now being addressed and will be worked on during the week, hopefully with the major changes completed by next meeting.
    Forum for MyLotRO: Complaints were made about some of the text, fixed during the meeting.
    Forum for LotRO Kinships on Landroval: Since the format was changed for that, we got dropped out of sight. A new page was made that day, but it was not made exactly  according to the template given and will probably have to be remade.
    Several different discussions.
    Tulkas' quote for a Tolkien Moment: of bliss and glad
    Eonwe's topic: Aule and Yavanna's argument over the woods and their use suggests that everything and everyone has its use. It also suggests why some relations are not as cordial as they might be in Middle-earth such as for dwarves and ents. Manwe and Varda are like the opposite side of the coin, more complementary to each other. Morgoth - excessive pride, greed; he could not attract the Valie of his choice.
    Galdor's topic: Palantiri size
    Arien's quote for a Tolkien Moment: Who deserves death?
    Galdor's topic: Galadriel and Celeborn's different stories in Unfinished Tales are not resolved in UT.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: a bit early, no?
TulkasValar61: Aiya, just setting things up on my work puter
TulkasValar61: dont have my laptop with me
ArPharazonV: hmm
ArPharazonV: well, I guess my transcript starts half an hour early today ;-)
TulkasValar61: Well I can cancel off if you wish..our supper is served in five minutes, and I wanted to set it up before hand on this computer.
ArPharazonV: I'm here now, so it doesn't matter.
ArPharazonV: enjoy your meal :-)
TulkasValar61: but of bliss and glad there is little to be said, before it ends; as all works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken forever do they pass into song.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
TulkasValar61: Aiya
TulkasValar61: How do you like that line from the Sil I typed out ArPhar?
TulkasValar61: It jumped out at me, and reminded me of Tolkien's power to turn a phrase.
ArPharazonV: I didn't recognize it, been too long since I read it :-)
Iryenth has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Bah, afk for a moment.
TulkasValar61: Aiya Iryenth
Iryenth: Aiya
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
TulkasValar61: Aiya Varda
VardaValar1: I was in a pile of wolves with a group and noticed the time, Pardon.
Iryenth: Aiya :-)
Iryenth: Eo ran afk for a minute, so we haven't started yet
ArPharazonV: Aiya
TulkasValar61: Wolves...I finished off the last of 360 this morning
VardaValar1: Nice!
VardaValar1: I'm on advanced in the Trollshaws.
TulkasValar61: That is where I was the puppy mill in Drauglad
karakedi25 has entered the room.
TulkasValar61: Aiya Indis
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: No new members that I know of this week. Does anyone have any news they'd like to share?
karakedi25: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Tulkas seems to be typing.
Eonwe Valar: back.
VardaValar1: Welcome back, Eonwe. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
TulkasValar61: Nope, thought I had two potentials, but one balked at the test, the other balked at reading the books. Wanted to know if knowing the movies was good enough:-P It seems to me I came across better Tolkien types in Diablo and Tristam than in Middle Earth :-)
VardaValar1: heh
VardaValar1: The test taking scares a lot of folks, have to come at the idea gently. Maybe start the test without their knowing.
VardaValar1: Mention up front that they can take it again.
VardaValar1: Thanks for the effort and the courage that takes, Tulkas. :-)
TulkasValar61: Ive freinded one of them..perhaps if he can get to the Library

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: On the News, we have a link sent in by Meriadoc-V.
VardaValar1: He plays a gnome on WoW and is a country fan, so he showed this video as proof that gnomes rule. ;-)
VardaValar1: I have no other web news. Eonwe, do you have any?
Eonwe Valar: None on my end, no.
VardaValar1: Thank you.

VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: Anyone been enjoying the new SC2 or other games non-WoW or non-LotRO?
Eonwe Valar: I've done a bit of SC2.
TulkasValar61: Sorry to dwell on a point, but I vow to recruit the first person to recognise my LOTRo name :-)
VardaValar1: Good luck! hehe
VardaValar1: Oh, recruit me! *raises hand*
Iryenth: Gwaihir's been playing a ton of sc2,,, got the Kerrigan icon this weekend
ArPharazonV: I've been doing some SC2, but not much, trying to catch up on other stuff first since I got back
VardaValar1: O cool! Can we get a review from Gwai? :-)
ArPharazonV: ooh, human Kerrigan? That's 29 on brutal, right?
Iryenth: yessum
VardaValar1: That catch-up can be rough. : )
ArPharazonV: impressive
Iryenth: All in took about 6 hours of trying
Iryenth: lol
VardaValar1: The blood-shot eyes, the cramping hand.
ArPharazonV: I'm scared enough trying to get back into my normal campaign, I don't even want to think about brutal ;-)
Iryenth: More of the sleepless night dwelling on how to do it lol
VardaValar1: We could get a poem going. ;-)
VardaValar1: I assume Fladrif has been in Second Life. Anyone seen him?
VardaValar1: I need to drop in over there.
ArPharazonV: I know he's travelling a bit for work, going to Germany and Spain, so I doubt he's been around much online
VardaValar1: Thanks, Phar!

VardaValar1: On to World of WarCraft
VardaValar1: I know my family's been gaming there, and Elwing, a good bit of the time even on our Horde characters.
VardaValar1: Eonwe, do you have a report?
VardaValar1: Does anyone have general WoW news?
Eonwe Valar: Aside from running a daily heroic with Bilbo and Sauron Saturday morning, no. I've just been trying to get in my daily heroic during the week.
VardaValar1: Fangorn and Elwing have been very busy on Horde, Uldaman server, so you may have seen them less.
Iryenth: Gwaihir's been doing the cataclysm beta, and Hyjal and Vash'jir are looking awesome. Although everytihng else is still pretty early on.
VardaValar1: Are you still gaming, Gilraen?
Iryenth: a bit, but mostly small stuff like farmville lately
VardaValar1: That sounds promising.
karakedi25: My computer is borked--rebooting
VardaValar1: Friend me. I play that on Facebook some too. ;-)
VardaValar1: Good luck, Indis.
Iryenth: sure thing
VardaValar1: Do does Eowyn
karakedi25 has left the room.
VardaValar1: My facebook link is on the Membership page.
VardaValar1: Any other WoW news we should mention or just want to? :-)
ArPharazonV: hmm *ponders* no, don't think I've got anything new to report in my raidcareer either
VardaValar1: Ok, thanks.

VardaValar1: Lord of the Rings Online:
VardaValar1: I hear of other groups that are slowing down, but we seem to be increasing in activity.
VardaValar1: We have people on quite a bit and are moving along with our group runs.
VardaValar1: Doing a bit too well in a fashion, as some get squeezed out of the regular runs now and then.

Iryenth: Gwaihir's asked if we have a guild list of BNet RealIDs for people who are comfortable with that, sorry for getting out of topic ;-)

karakedi25 has entered the room.
TulkasValar61: A couple of weeks ago Ulmo called my 3rd age 65 min maxed to 70 bow "not that good" I acquired a 2nd age reforge, tht is no where as good..So my question is...what is the best bow?
karakedi25: back
VardaValar1: Welcome back!
karakedi25: whichever meets your needs best
VardaValar1: A level 65 second age with great legacies. : )
VardaValar1: But a level 65 third age with great legacies is much more reachable.

Eonwe Valar: No one has sent me RealID info for the Games Page, and I really don't like how BLizzard implemented it personally.

karakedi25: a reforged 2nd age that has the legacies you want will be better than a third age, but as Varda says, you can do very nicely with a 3rd ager
karakedi25: none of my characters have reforged 65s, and they do fine
Eonwe Valar: In my opinion, getting directly in contact with eachother would be the best way to get friended in that manner rather than displaying it on the Games Site.
VardaValar1: Aye, go for a 65 third age and you're peachy.
VardaValar1: Thanks, Eonwe.

VardaValar1: Some side discussion going on about whether we should try to have a Valar Guild facebook group.

TulkasValar61: Had it decontructed it, will start again..good news is all the deeding I ve been doing I can afford one if it comes up at AH

VardaValar1: The Forum is probably all we really need for that, but it's an idea.
karakedi25: FB might provide more immediate response for those who want it.
Eonwe Valar: I'm not necessarily against the Valar Guild having an official Facebook page, but the question would be who would end up managing it?
karakedi25: I seldom look at it, myself, unless I get an e-mail message.
Eonwe Valar: And would we really gain from having it?
ArPharazonV: I truly have no opinion on the matter. Forum suits me fine and I don't even *have* a facebook account.
karakedi25: another place for potential recruits to find us?
VardaValar1: Forum is very little used.
karakedi25: beyond that, perhaps it would be a good idea to inquire among those who are suggesting it

karakedi25: to tell the truth, the forum is a bit forbidding, especially to a newcomer
VardaValar1: If people would please not share every time they did something in a Facebook game, I wouldn 't mind so much.
TulkasValar61: personally, I find facebook forums easier to handle that ours, I have not been able to get back on in years [Note: Side window info so he can get back on.]
VardaValar1: Indis, what would make it friendlier? The forum?
karakedi25: the color scheme isn't all that readable, the layout is dense
Eonwe Valar: How is it forbidding?
karakedi25: some of what I just said. Finding new items (rare as they are) isn't easy for a newcomer (it took me weeks to figure out how to use the new items at the bottom of the page), and the little icons that brighten up when there's something new are not that easy to see.
karakedi25: Most of all, I think I'd make the page less dense. Perhaps put inactive game fora in a separate section.
Iryenth: I don't use the forum at all
karakedi25: the bright green on black is not easy on the eyes--better something on a pastel background, still high contrast, but not so 'glary'
ArPharazonV: I have no idea how hard it would be to implement this,
karakedi25: I don't either. I was just asked for suggestions, and I'm giving them.
ArPharazonV: but would like... a tutorial or guide or help page for the forum help? a few image files with pointers or lists about "this does that, etc etc"
VardaValar1: Ok, a few suggestions for what help is needed would be useful.
karakedi25: Other sites I have visited may use dark backgrounds, but the letters aren't 'flourescent.
karakedi25: I just gave a few
VardaValar1: Maybe a tutorial, then people ask questions on that thread, and those answers could be put in the tutorial at the top?
karakedi25: less dense, less neon effect, something to guide people to finding new posts
Iryenth: yeah, just to second Indis, the black/green/orange combination is difficult to read
ArPharazonV: We have something to find new posts, but yes, a pointer to the location of that function would probably help for newcomers
Eonwe Valar: I've never had trouble reading it personally. However, we *might* be able to create another/more layouts for people to choose from for themselves.
karakedi25: Many sites do that.
karakedi25: But the forum density is another problem. put some of the inactive subfora away.
VardaValar1: Not many are actually active.
VardaValar1: Would you folks prefer the same color scheme we have on the main website?
karakedi25: exactly. Do we need to see America's Army every time we enter the forum, for example?
VardaValar1: Kind of history, heh.
karakedi25: The news one or the black background with (as I remember) silver letters?
Eonwe Valar: It's at the bottom for a reason.
Eonwe Valar: The America's Army forum.
karakedi25: It shouldn't be on the main page at all, as far as I'm concerned.
karakedi25: ditto for other fora that haven't had posts for eons
VardaValar1: I think you would rather we had LotRO and WoW as the only ones for gaming?
ArPharazonV: That'd pretty much cut it down to 1-3 sections.
karakedi25: The main page should have categories and some frequently used threads/fora.
karakedi25: Nothing wrong with that.
TulkasValar61: what is America's Army..are we talking the real army or some game?
karakedi25: game
Eonwe Valar: It's a game.
VardaValar1: I tried moving things around before. It makes a link to the new place, and when I removed the link, the whole section wiped out irreplaceably.
ArPharazonV: ...Let's not do that then.
VardaValar1: Once something is gone, it's gone with no way to get it back.
karakedi25: All I can say, is if we want to recruit and get more forum activity, our forum is not inviting.
VardaValar1: Would you like to bury every game's forum as a subforum of the Gaming forum?
Iryenth: It's quite... intimidating
VardaValar1: Thanks for pointing that out. We're too used to it to see that.
Iryenth: there are a lot of sub-forums, and a lot of them are obviously not active
Iryenth: whihc I think is Indis' point
Iryenth: what little activity there is on the forum seems ot be lost amongst the dozen sub-forums last posted in 3, 5, 8 years ago
VardaValar1: We could have 4 sections on the from page: Tips, Community, Tolkien, and Gaming.
ArPharazonV: Meh, probably just me, but I like the multiple sections. It's like a reminder of a time when things were more active, and it seems to hold a bit of history, as well as potential for future activity.
karakedi25: Yes, I 'd put them all in the subforum, but put a link to the most commonly used ones, primarily WoW and LotRO
karakedi25: history is fine, but it doesn't mean a thing to newcomers and potential recruits
ArPharazonV: It'd seem so empty if you removed all but 2 sections.
Eonwe Valar: Or rather, "Improvement of the Message Board" plus the otehr three.
VardaValar1: I don't think most of our current people are interested in history, sadly.
ArPharazonV: That's a darn shame.
Iryenth: yeah, links in the sub-forum description
Iryenth: it's nice to keep the history there, certainly
karakedi25: It may be a shame, but trying to get through to what's relevant shouldn't be like entering Mordor
Iryenth: but at the moment it's mostly history, which detracts from the current activity
VardaValar1: We really didn't think it was so hard. The older stuff is mostly towards the bottom.
VardaValar1: New stuff is mostly near the top.
karakedi25: If you're new to a forum, you can't know that, and you may still think you need to look at it.
ArPharazonV: except the new posts link, but that's easy enough to find once you know where it is
karakedi25: put a link to it at the top of the page.
ArPharazonV: well yeah, that's what a guide/tutorial thing would be for
Iryenth: yeah, but new people looking at the forum to ask questions/read around aren't going to know where that feature is, Phara
karakedi25: people may not want to spend a lot of time on a guide
ArPharazonV: A second link to it at the top might not be a bad idea, then.
VardaValar1: So it would be under Tips on the four sections.
VardaValar1: People don't want to spend much time doing anything, right.
Iryenth: well, it's all about first impressions, Varda
VardaValar1: Needs to be quick and easy to find, aye.
karakedi25: Basic communication theory would suggest making what you want people to see very easy to find, and not cluttering up with things they may not want or need
Eonwe Valar: The other thing to balance this with is that most people also don't want to have to click through a hundred levels to get to what they're looking for.
Iryenth: if you can't find what you're looking for, or the appearance is off-putting, then yeah, people won't spend a lot of time trying to find their way around
VardaValar1: Aye, we haven't revamped the page lately to reflect current needs.
VardaValar1: It's still set up as it was when we started.
karakedi25: that's why some links up front to the most frequently sought and needed material would make sense
VardaValar1: Ok, we'll see what we can do without destroying the whole thing.
VardaValar1: I prefer that people use the website, actually. ;-)
karakedi25: things like How to Join, Tolkien Topics, Current Roleplay, LotRO, Wow
VardaValar1: Some people insisted we add a Forum, so we did.
karakedi25: the forum is good, but it needs to be usable.
VardaValar1: ok, we'll see what we can do about it.
Eonwe Valar: It also needs to be used :}
karakedi25: When a potential member investigates a kinship, they often look at the forum to see what the kinship is like
VardaValar1: If it's easier to use, they may use it more.
Eonwe Valar: If people don't use it but don't tell us why they're not using it, that doesn't help us either :}
VardaValar1: I *never* send people to the forum but always to the website.
VardaValar1: The forum is for later.
karakedi25: You all know that I love the Valar Guild, so what I'm saying is meant entirely constructively....
VardaValar1: We understand, indis, and said we'd see what we can do to fix the problem.
karakedi25: but it's fogey-ish and clumsy as it is
ArPharazonV: Hmm, true, Varda, it's not about the forum for newcomers. Site outside forum gives all the info you need, doesn't it?
karakedi25: yes, send them to the website, but I know that one of the things I do when looking at a kinship is glance at--or even pore over--the forum to get a flavor of the kin
VardaValar1: our poor, nearly unused forum.
karakedi25: I'm making suggestions that may help it get used more
VardaValar1: Thank you.
VardaValar1: So, change the color scheme, drop it to about 4 topics.
karakedi25: yes, and have links to those of most interest to newcomers to the site
ArPharazonV: Don't take too many chances with the inactive topics. If you manage to group it together under an inactive section, that's great, but you don't want to risk it disappearing without a trace.
VardaValar1: The chances of them utterly disappearing as the other sections did is very high, aye.
karakedi25: Perhaps make backups of the information before fiddling?
ArPharazonV: I'd suggest at least putting helpful links and topics for newcomers at the top (including the fresh posts-link) and removing the inactive sections to the bottom, so that newcomers need not bother there (might find a way to mark the area clearly, saying "if you're not interested, don't go below this")
ArPharazonV: but taking more chances seems a bit... not worth the risk
karakedi25: Agreed, Phar
Iryenth: or do it in stages. empty out one forum's content into an 'inactive' forum, try moving that now-enpty forum, if it doesn't work or breaks somehow you still have the topic threads
Iryenth: and if it works, you can move the topics back
VardaValar1: I tried exactly that before.
VardaValar1: The moving doesn't work too hot.
Eonwe Valar: I don't mind merging *some* stuff, i.e. Starcraft and Starcraft 2 into a single "Starcraft" board with the two as subboards, but I personally would rather not shove everything in gaming into a single "Games" forum if I could get a better header font to indicate the primary groupings of Community, Tolkien, and Gaming.
ArPharazonV: if you move it to the bottom of the page, you don't need to merge anything, I'm not sure how hard it is to change the order of sections on the main page?
VardaValar1: Moving the order is not too bad.
TulkasValar61: I've another question about LoTRO, when deeding for virtue traits is there any advantage to pushing them above level 10? Ive got a few at 10 and it says next level 10 +1-1 with no change in its values?
VardaValar1: Tulkas, they currently stop at 10.
VardaValar1: It's possible that in the future they will go over, but we don't know that.
ArPharazonV: well then, move the inactive sections to the bottom, as I said, seperate it from the rest with a big (flashy?) header that says "if you're not interested in our history, don't read further" (or something more subtle ;-)), and put some newcomer's tips at the top including the new posts thing
VardaValar1: So, move the Tolkien sections to the bottom. :-)
VardaValar1: I'm being arch, sorry.
VardaValar1: We will be working on the forum during the week.
VardaValar1: We hope you'll be pleased with the changes.
ArPharazonV: well, things like America's Army that were mentioned earlier, things that have been suggested to be moved under a seperate link, etc.. it seems quite a bit safer, but generally having the same desired effect
ArPharazonV: and of course being able to choose your own layout/colorscheme could be interesting for some, though personally I tend to prefer what I'm used to
VardaValar1: Eonwe will be the main one working with the f
VardaValar1: Forum this week, if you have additional suggestions or comments during the week that you'd like addressed.
ArPharazonV: I think I've had my say on the matter.
Eonwe Valar: Please e-mail them if you do.
VardaValar1: You folks want the main color scheme to follow the one on the main website or another way?
ArPharazonV: I'll put them on the forum *snicker*
Eonwe Valar: That way I know your e-mail works for when I conduct the GPMU next month :}
VardaValar1: Originally we built the forum for members who couldn't make it to the meetings, and to help us get together across games.
TulkasValar61: GPMU?? games played by Members Update?
VardaValar1: It was not for Public Relations or recrutiing originally.
Eonwe Valar: Games Page Mass-Update.
ArPharazonV: same thing, though
ArPharazonV: for the members
Eonwe Valar: Though I guess it's Games Site Mass-Update -> GSMU now :}
ArPharazonV: Games Section, perhaps?
ArPharazonV: Games Pages?
TulkasValar61: Put me down for LoTRO and windows solitaire, mahjongg :-)
VardaValar1: hehe
TulkasValar61: tried WoW for a while but aside from meeting Varda once fishing, I was running around in a mostly empty world :-(
ArPharazonV: fishing's nice!
ArPharazonV: I hope there's more fishing stuff in Cataclysm. Haven't looked into it.
ArPharazonV: *fishes up Neptulon*

VardaValar1: Someone else please invite Ecthelion?
VardaValar1: He's im'ing so I get session already exists
ArPharazonV: what's his name?
VardaValar1: BFIIShotgunner
VardaValar1: We would like it if people who didn't already use the forum would give their comments.
ArPharazonV: invited
VardaValar1: Tell us why they don't.
karakedi25: I'm trying to invite him. What's the command to do so?
VardaValar1: Too many inviting cross it up.
VardaValar1: Phar is doing it.
Eonwe Valar: I'd sent him one when I first came on. It just told me he rejected it.
ArPharazonV: he's just in the "invited" window on the right side of this chatwindow
VardaValar1: He told me that he just saw it and it timed out.
karakedi25: yes, that has happened to me a lot. The first option is reject, and the second is accept, so I've accidentally rejected
VardaValar1: He noticed the timed out message.
VardaValar1: We really need the comments from those who are actually having trouble with the forum.
karakedi25: so far he says he's not getting an invitation- Phar told him he was inviting
ArPharazonV: he's invited, I guess that went wrong
ArPharazonV: I'll try again?
karakedi25: I don't know how to invite-how is it done?
ArPharazonV: tried again
VardaValar1: If more than one invites, we've found that it crosses up and they can't get in. Just let Phar do it for a bit.
karakedi25: I am, but I'd like to know how
Eonwe Valar: Go to your main AIM window.
Eonwe Valar: Select Menu.
Eonwe Valar: Select New Group Chat.
ArPharazonV: depends on the version, of course
ArPharazonV: I just invite him with "chat invitation" from the buddy list
Eonwe Valar: Add anyone's name in the name area, then add the channel name in the channel name area.
Eonwe Valar: I'm going to longer way so that everyone knows how they can mass-invite as well.
karakedi25: I don't have the option of chat invitation in my buddy list
VardaValar1: It says Group Chat.
Eonwe Valar: If you have a group set up in your buddy list, i.e. Valar Guild, have that name selected when you do this and it'll populate the name area with everyone online who can receive an invitation.
VardaValar1: But if everyone is inviting, no one can get in. They interfere.
karakedi25: I have join a chat, but not Group Chat
ArPharazonV: he's still in the invited list
ArPharazonV: yeah, I'm betting you don't have 5.9
VardaValar1: Right click on the person's name, and it says Group Chat
Eonwe Valar: He he's having problems with others inviting him, see if he's tried inviting himself yet.
karakedi25: I have 2.6.6
karakedi25: He's not in the valar group. He's in a separate section by himself (recent buddies)
Eonwe Valar: I have what I assume is the newest AIM, 7 I think, so my instructions won't help you Indis.
ArPharazonV: 2.6.6? you're using a different program?
VardaValar1: Indis, aren't you on Pidgin?
karakedi25: oops, I'm using Pidgin
ArPharazonV: ah, Pidgin
ArPharazonV: then I can't help you
Eonwe Valar: Nor can I.
VardaValar1: Ok, I gave him instructions on how to invite himself.
BFIIShotgunner has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: and there he is!
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Yay!
Eonwe Valar: Heya Ecthelion :}
BFIIShotgunner: Aiya!
BFIIShotgunner: What'd I miss?
karakedi25: welcome!
ArPharazonV: I think we're still in gaming, technically!
ArPharazonV: so not missed Tolkien yet
VardaValar1: Indis brought up a request that we revamp the Forum to make it easier for newbies coming in, and for help as a recruiting tool that we have not been using it for. We thought it was a good idea and are going to be changing it over the week.
VardaValar1: The forum is very unforgiving so we have to tread cautiously as we make the changes.
VardaValar1: No one really said what they wanted as a color scheme, just that they didn't like the current one, so we are considering going with the same one we use on the Tolkien Site and community area.
VardaValar1: We're trying to figure out how to cut down the number of sections without wrecking it.
Eonwe Valar: Comments are welcome, by e-mail, to me, whether you like it or dislike it. I don't want to alienate those members who do like the general setup in the process of improvement.
BFIIShotgunner: Are you keeping the same hosting site?
Eonwe Valar: Flat out, my biggest concern is that more members use it.
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe.
VardaValar1: Yes, Ecthelion.
ArPharazonV: Well, I like the general setup, for what it's worth. If we get to choose, I'd even stick with the same colorscheme as we do now. But having different options would be nice if it gets more members using it.
BFIIShotgunner: I like the feel of the one now.
BFIIShotgunner: But that's just my opinion

TulkasValar61: I was rereading the histories page, and when Ulmo's comment about my Valar test prompted me to pick up the Sil again..Enjoying it again after a too long lapse
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: Great!
Eonwe Valar: So what was that quote that you mentioned to Phar earlier, Tulkas?
TulkasValar61: But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken forever do they pass into song.
VardaValar1: A lot of people are talking to me in side windows.
VardaValar1: I cede the hammer to Eonwe for now.
TulkasValar61: This line is soo true!
Eonwe Valar: Aye, that is very true, and well said.
BFIIShotgunner: Agreed.
Eonwe Valar: Too often we don't realize what we had until it's gone.
VardaValar1: I suggest that we now call this the Tolkien section of the meeting. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye :}

Eonwe Valar: One sec actually, I want to throw in a quote that somewhat goes with this one..
Eonwe Valar: Here we go.
Eonwe Valar: Aulë and Yavanna are arguing because Aulë didn't tell her about his Dwarves. He says:
Eonwe Valar: "That shall also be true of the Children of Iluvatar; for they will eat and they will build. And though the things of thy realm have worth in themselves, and would have worth if no Children were to come, yet Eru will give them dominion, and they shall use all that they find in Arda: though not, by the purpose of Eru, without respect or without gratitude."
TulkasValar61: None the less they will have need of wood :-)
Eonwe Valar: The point made here (though not intentionally by Aulë) that every thing in existence has a value in and of its own.
Eonwe Valar: Aye :}
Eonwe Valar: And when I say Aulë isn't making that point intentionally, I mean that we can gather that point, but it's not something he needed to explain to his target audience, Yavanna. His point to her was that the things of her realm *will* be used by Eru's Children.
Eonwe Valar: Does anyone else have a quote, perhaps in a similar vein, they'd like to share?
TulkasValar61: Was Aule being slightlty dimissive when he responded to Yvanna's warning for Aules dwarves to raise the ire of the Shepherds of the Trees at their peril, with his " nevertheless, they shall have need of wood?\
ArPharazonV: "Need more lumber"...
VardaValar1: hehe - so speaks the ship-builder.
VardaValar1: Yavanna needed a reality check there, and Aule gave it.
Eonwe Valar: Aulë wasn't being any worse than Yavanna when she declared that just because he didn't tell her about his Dwarves, that means his Dwarves will have no love for her realm.
VardaValar1: That was true too. Communication sure helps.
TulkasValar61: I dont know...I believe Aule may have a mysonogist dwarvish ladies for example.
VardaValar1: Actually, there were. But the Sil doesn't go into that.
Eonwe Valar: Neither of them seemed to understand the other all that well, and it shows through in their creations. Both Dwarves and Ents are species on the verge of extinction because their men and their women don't come to terms.
karakedi25: One of them is named.
VardaValar1: In HoME, it tells that they had wives.
karakedi25: and that they were indistinguishable from the males, though they didn't go out in public much
VardaValar1: Good point, Eonwe. I hadn't thought about that connection.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, in HoME, only Durin didn't have a wife already made in some versions, and that was because Aulë wanted to get straight to teaching.
ArPharazonV: (it's the beards)
VardaValar1: True, looked similar.
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Aye, Durin didn't have a wife, and he kept being reincarnated, according to the dwarves.
Eonwe Valar: If you look at Fangorn's song about the Entwives, you see the Ents essentially going "Check this out!" and the Entwives going "I've got something better over here!"
karakedi25: and the other way around, too
Eonwe Valar: Dwarf women, on the other hand, decide that if they can't have the man they want, they will have no other (no mention of love in that, only want). Most of the Dwarf men who aren't chieftains don't even bother to marry because they're more interested in their work.
ArPharazonV: sounds like a population that'd go downhill very fast unless children come in groups of 8 or something
Eonwe Valar: Well, the Ent parts end with basically a plea, and the Entwife parts end with a statement.
Eonwe Valar: Now time for another quote :}
karakedi25: Both sides were unwilling to sample the perspective of the other.
TulkasValar61: another universal truth, and the repercussions stemming from it

Eonwe Valar: "When Manwë there ascends his throne and looks forth, if Varda is beside him, he sees further than all other eyes, through mist, and through darkness, and over the leagues of the sea. And if Manwë is with her, Varda hears more clearly than all other ears the sound of voices that cry from east to west, from the hills and the valleys, and from the dark places that Melkor has made upon the Earth."
TulkasValar61: ah the opposite side of the coin and the positive repercussions of that way of thinking :-)
Eonwe Valar: Manwë and Varda compliment eachother. They don't strive to outdo eachother. He is not jealous that she is more loved and revered by Elves, and she doesn't go on about he's the Elder King. She never throws in his face that she could've had Melkor either :}
VardaValar1: eww
Eonwe Valar: ?
karakedi25: eww?
Eonwe Valar: Varda could've had Melkor, she rejected him from the beginning.
karakedi25: Yes, very wise of her.

TulkasValar61: It was another wound to Melkor's pride. The pride that was the predominant cause for his fall.
karakedi25: and another source of envy of Manwe
TulkasValar61: is not envy merely wounded pride?
karakedi25: not necessarily
karakedi25: envy in psychology is the desire to destroy for someone else what you can't have that they do have
karakedi25: it's not necessarily a matter of pride; it could be fear or many other possible emotions
TulkasValar61: I should have that, I deserve that ..My pride demands it.......
VardaValar1: Pride, hubris. Aye.
Eonwe Valar: If anyone deserves it, it's me! :}
karakedi25: how about just 'I wants it, Precious'?
VardaValar1: Greed too, aye.
Eonwe Valar: You only have it by unhappy chance. I could've been mine. It should've been mine! Give it to me!
VardaValar1: nice quote :-)
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: oops hehe aiya thought i d still catch u
AriehnV: if anyone is still here>
TulkasValar61: yep
Eonwe Valar: We are :}
ArPharazonV: Aiya :-)
karakedi25: lots of us
BFIIShotgunner: I be reading but not typing
TulkasValar61: discussing Melkor/Smeagol/pride/greed/Manwe/Varda
AriehnV: sorry for the late entrance but had the chance to get in an icc ten run ... and they didnt want achievement .. so i took the chance to get it
TulkasValar61: Yvanna and Aule/ Dwarves/Ents
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien :-)
AriehnV: and a bit member ship stuck at the back .. i am on holidays now :-D
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
AriehnV: and away from thursday to the monday in two weeks and back at work wed in two weeks
AriehnV: so i wont be here for the next two meetings but i ll do my usal forum check
Eonwe Valar: Have fun :}
ArPharazonV: have fun :-)

Eonwe Valar: Are there any other Tolkien quotes anyone would like to share? :}

TulkasValar61: In 10 more days I start another 3 month period of paid leave, 2nd one this year. speaking of envy :-)

AriehnV: thanks thanks :-D and i ll be keeping an eye open on that tolkien event in wales .. maybe we can sort something out representatives for next year
AriehnV: well u know what i mean ...

VardaValar1: GaldorV2010: is requesting an invite, not getting mine. I'll try the same invite self.
ArPharazonV: GaldorV2010? I do have a galdorandwe in my list..
Eonwe Valar: Even if we don't, if it turns out to be that big, having someone who wants to visit and send/bring back pictures, their comments, thought etc on it would be excellent, sort of like having our own news correspondent :}
galdorandwe has entered the room.
galdorandwe: Aiya all.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Galdor :}
VardaValar1: Aiya
AriehnV: aiya :-)
galdorandwe: Sorry I'm so late...
VardaValar1: Ah, I see. The nickname overrides.
VardaValar1: Two and a half hours late. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Kind of like if we had someone going to Blizzcon who wanted to send in pics and reports for the Games Site :}
AriehnV: :-)
VardaValar1: fixed
galdorandwe: I'm cooking dinner, so it couldn't be helped :-)
VardaValar1: Two and a half hours of cooking. *whew* :-)
Eonwe Valar: We don't necessarily need to be directly involved ourselves in order to have people visit and give their impressions for our pages.
galdorandwe: Sunday Gravy...or marinara if you will.
galdorandwe: what's the topic?
AriehnV: cool
galdorandwe: yeah, it's just about ready...can't wait.
Eonwe Valar: We started with the value of all things, went to relationships, also taking particularly memorable quotes anyone would like to share.
Eonwe Valar: Otherwise, we're close to wrapping up.
galdorandwe: I have something new i learned from UT the other day.
TulkasValar61: Arphar and I have been here since 4:30 :-)
ArPharazonV: pretty much, 22:30 for me that was
Eonwe Valar: Oh, and there'll be some work on the Guild forums this week. We'd like all members to weigh in on how they like/don't like the way it is now, if they don't use it, why not, what they think would make it better, that kind of thing.
ArPharazonV: but I've been browsing a lot during the meeting so I'm allright ;-)

galdorandwe: In the Palantiri mentions that the actual stones were quite larger than I recalled and that a viewer would stand 3 ft away with the larger stones...interesting. Even the lesser stones were a foot in diameter.
Eonwe Valar: Those comments can be e-mailed to me. My e-mail is on the Members page.
Eonwe Valar: Been a while since I'd read UT. I'd forgotten about that until you mentioned it, Galdor.
Eonwe Valar: A foot in diameter is pretty big. Amazing Pippin could get away with that so easily, hehe.
TulkasValar61: All that ent draught he was quaffing
galdorandwe: What was more amazing iss that he was able to align it to read it...that's mentioned in UT as well.
Eonwe Valar: He just got lucky on that, or unlucky, considering his view :}
TulkasValar61: or was his hand guided?
AriehnV: quote .. Frodo on Gollum: "Now at any rate he is as bad as an orc and just and an enemy. He deserves death"
ArPharazonV: Hmm, it does bring up some questions concerning that part of lotr.
ArPharazonV: Didn't Wormtongue drop down the palantir trying to hit Saruman? Or is my memory failing me...
Eonwe Valar: He threw it, either at Saruman or Gandalf. He couldn't decide which :}
TulkasValar61: and was his hand guided?
Eonwe Valar: Wormtongue's?
TulkasValar61: and if so,,,by which side?
Eonwe Valar: Or Pippin's?
TulkasValar61: both\
Eonwe Valar: Wormtongue I don't think was necessarily guided, no.
ArPharazonV: getting an invulnerable crystal on your head that's a foot big and is dropped from a height should be quite painful
Eonwe Valar: He was doing something in a fit of malice, and evil sometimes screws up in favor of good :}
Eonwe Valar: I believe Gandalf putting it something like "Evil oft will ivil mar."
AriehnV: "Deserves it? I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death and many who die deserve life.Can you give it to him? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
Eonwe Valar: *ivil= evil
AriehnV: quote end
karakedi25: That quote seems to me to be the at the heart of the book.
AriehnV: (him = them)

galdorandwe: you mentioned relationships in the topic earlier...I'm rereading the history of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT...I hadn't remembered there were so many inconsistencies in her story.
TulkasValar61: afk 5 min...please excuse me
AriehnV: time for me to go to bed tho :-) very tired
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien :}
AriehnV: be well and be safe :-) May the roads rise to meet you and the suin shining on your harvest and the winds in the back :-)
AriehnV: (bit free version of a celtic blessing ;-)
AriehnV: namarie :-)
karakedi25: namarie
AriehnV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Namarie Arien
Eonwe Valar: Were there any in particular you wanted to mention, Galdor?
VardaValar1: More than one story version listed in HoME.
galdorandwe: For one, how she made her way over the blue mtns. It mentions that she met Celeborn in Lorien, but another account says she travelled over the mountains with him...she either met him in Beleriand or's not resolved.
galdorandwe: afk
ArPharazonV: wasn't Celeborn related to Thingol at one point?
karakedi25: He is generally thought to be a Teler.
Eonwe Valar: I *think* some tales have him related to Thingol. Haven't read up on his in a while though.
Eonwe Valar: *him

Eonwe Valar: Let's go ahead and call the meeting here.
Eonwe Valar: Discussion has died down pretty low, so it's a good time.
VardaValar1: back
TulkasValar61: Well people have a good night...I am
Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel*

Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting.
galdorandwe: night...see some of you later in the game.
TulkasValar61 has left the room.
VardaValar1: LotRO kinship stuff is now changed up a little for clarity
Eonwe Valar: WB Varda :}
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Tulkas, belatedly :}
VardaValar1: Namarie
galdorandwe has left the room.
VardaValar1: Only a three hour meeting. *collapse*
Eonwe Valar: Remember: forum, comments, my inbox soon. Especially those who don't use it. I'd like to know why :}
Eonwe Valar: But everyone, if you like it, if you don't like it.
VardaValar1: I'll bet they don't read transcripts or look at our website either, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: Time to prod them in-game then? :}
Eonwe Valar: I hope the answer to "Why don't you use it?" will never be "I didn't know we had one." :}
VardaValar1: Sure, and you can try that in WoW too. We'll give it a shot.
VardaValar1: O, that's true too. :0
Eonwe Valar: I will make a mention in the WoW MotD.
Eonwe Valar: But not now :}
Eonwe Valar: For now, I must turn my attention elsewhere :}
Eonwe Valar: I'll be back and forth from the keyboard.
Iryenth has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Guess I'll save and send.