Valar Guild

October 18, 2009 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00?)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

Back to News
Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon and Varda

Attending: (7)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, arwenv1, Eonwe Valar (presiding), fladrifv, Menelvagor Valar, VardaValar1

Meeting begins
    Games page
    Battle for Middle-earth 1 and 2
    Guild Wars
    Second Life
    Atlantica Laytonrim, Atlantica Arien
    Discussion: What animals existed in Middle-earth that we no longer see that we are aware of and what role did they play in the storyline?
       Mentioned with overlapping discussions and not necessarily in this order: Fastitocalon (great turtle), Great Eagles and more birds (including swans, thrushes, ravens, crebain), dragons( including Smaug, Ancalagon, cold-drakes, and locations), Fell Beasts, Trolls as a side-comment relating to breeding, Orcs as a side comment relating to breeding, Wargs and Wolves and Werewolves, Were-bearscats and Tevildo, dogs and Huan (later), spiders (including Ungoliant, Shelob, Mirkwoodians), elephants, apes, and horses (including Mearas, elf-horses, Nahar, and Felarof)
    Eonwe Valar: Homework assignment: Everyone go find out more about Harad :}
    Forum role-play: posting by Eonwe.

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Phar :-)
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
fladrifv has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya
ArPharazonV: will be afk for a bit, still going for headless horseman, someone's still bringing half a dozen alts...
fladrifv: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: We'll be beginning shortly.
VardaValar1: Aiya : )
Eonwe Valar: Heya :}
Eonwe Valar: THought you may have just left your AIM on :}
VardaValar1: I did for a bit. : )
VardaValar1: Eonwe has the chair. : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: OK, let's begin.

Eonwe Valar: Elen sila lumenn omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: We're here :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other Membership news?
Eonwe Valar: Guess not :}

Eonwe Valar: Web:
Eonwe Valar: Games Page, as always, has background work going on :}

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: Hallow's End began in the wee hours this morning.
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: aiya all L:-)
Eonwe Valar: Festivities include trick-or treating, saving towns from the Headless Horseman, and confronting him to end his reign.
Eonwe Valar: If you're not quite 80 yet, it's worth it to hunt down all the candy barrels in the Eastern Kingdoms, Kalimdor, and Outland if you can get to them all.
Eonwe Valar: There's an achievement that tells you where they are.
ArPharazonV: if you are 80, it's about 7g per barrel ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye, if you're 80 it's also worth it for the almost 7 gold.
Eonwe Valar: There are also some candy buckets in Northrend, but they're not part of an achivement so you have to fly around to pretty much anywhere with something that can be considered an inn.
Eonwe Valar: I had problems with the candy buckets at the Argent Stand, Zim'Torga, and Amberpine Lodge, but think I got the rest of them in Northrend.
ArPharazonV: so far I've discovered bouldercrag's, frost hold, K3, argent stand, amberpine, and some others....
ArPharazonV: you had trouble?
Eonwe Valar: They wouldn't work for me.
ArPharazonV: I know Zim didn't work for me
Eonwe Valar: The Headless Horseman is now lvl 80, and his rings, weapon, and helm have been upgraded accordingly.
ArPharazonV: come to think of it, I'm not sure I found amberpine
AriehnV: bleh
Eonwe Valar: You only need to be 75 to summon him.
AriehnV: ah well not in reach of me rogue then :-(
Eonwe Valar: Don't forget to get the quest the first time though.
ArPharazonV: first-time quest is available at 70
AriehnV: i ve got her back on Argent Dawn btw :-)
ArPharazonV: though you can't actually summon him until 75
Eonwe Valar: You actually get 2 summons that way the first time you do it.
VardaValar1: Where do we pick it up?
ArPharazonV: any starting zone mid-town
ArPharazonV: goldshire, Kharanos, etc
VardaValar1: Thanks
Eonwe Valar: Any one of the cities that the Horseman attacks, I'm pretty sure.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Goldshire and Kharanos would be examples.
ArPharazonV: also Dolanaar and...
ArPharazonV: something something watch
Eonwe Valar: Azure Watch.
AriehnV: azure watch
ArPharazonV: that's it
Eonwe Valar: Dolanaar is the Goldshire equivalent for Nighht Elves, and Azure Watch for the Draenei.
Eonwe Valar: You can get the squashling pet from trick-or-treating treat bags, and you can trick-or-treat once per hours.
Eonwe Valar: *once per hour
Eonwe Valar: I think that covers all the big stuff for Hallow's End.
VardaValar1: WoW general news continued: Must merge WoW accounts by Nov. 11 to be able to log in.
AriehnV: i ve done it btw penguin is nice
VardaValar1: We're penguined too. : )
AriehnV: :-)
ArPharazonV: don't have the penguin yet
ArPharazonV: what's deadline for penguin?
Eonwe Valar: November 11th
ArPharazonV: I haven't switched yet
ArPharazonV: ah
ArPharazonV: up to the merger then
ArPharazonV: the forced merger tha tis
Eonwe Valar: Maybe 12th for you, might want to check the EU community page.
VardaValar1: Forced merger for Americas is Nov. 11
Eonwe Valar: But it'll be one of those two days I'm sure.
AriehnV: i am not too pleased about it either Phara if thats any consolation ;-) but well thats what they decided
AriehnV: i hate being forced into anything .. but thats me
VardaValar1: That's most of us. I'm ok if I see a reason.
AriehnV: the only explanation i found is that its easier for them to manage all the accounts
AriehnV: and watch over forums and so on
AriehnV: well thats what i can come up with
ArPharazonV: paves the way for a new and improved bnet
Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: LotRO's Hallow's End equivalent is also going.
Eonwe Valar: Harvestmath.
VardaValar1: Harvestmath events, aye. : ) New Shell game added with an Elvish twist, they say.
VardaValar1: (Hoping to try it soon.)
ArPharazonV: shell game?
Eonwe Valar: Feel free to tell us more about Harvestmath, Varda :}
VardaValar1: I haven't done it this year yet, can't tell about the new Shell game much, just that it's the new thing for this year.
VardaValar1: They have a lot of the regular games, and the Harvestmath horse for a prize for enough tokens from doing games.
ArPharazonV: the way you said "new shell game" I assumed there were other shell games already in game
VardaValar1: Also from Oct 15-21 they are letting old players come back for free, and adding 25% experience bonus for playing.
VardaValar1: My apologies, a new game has been added, the Shell Game.
VardaValar1: The Siege of Mirkwood expansion is coming up.
ArPharazonV: yay got myself a magic broom.. allright, logging out of wow to join you here
VardaValar1: The trailer may be seen at
VardaValar1: Yay broom!
VardaValar1: LotRO will be down for maintenance (unusual for them and not a regular thing) Monday around 7am - noon EST.
VardaValar1: The beta is out for it and a number of members have been invited, but I'm not allowed to say much more than that.
VardaValar1: In any game we play, we put up the friend channel, Valar, to find each other. :-)
VardaValar1: We've been having times where members show up a lot in LotRO in clusters, around 8pm and later on weekdays, and quite a few on weekend mornings as well.
VardaValar1: End report. : )
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar: Anything to tell us about gaming in LotRO this week?
VardaValar1: Nothing scheduled, but a ton of stuff we do as we show up together. Lots of lowbie stuff going on and some high level. Lots of crafting, people trying to trait up and be ready for the expansion.
VardaValar1: Gimli is back playing. : )
VardaValar1: Some are disappearing as they wait for the expansion, and some as they try the beta.
ArPharazonV: Gimli, Gimli, Gimli, a dwarf after midnight...
AriehnV: ah right yes Eomer and Varda helped my burglar with some group quests in Northdowns
AriehnV: and she has reached lvl 30 :-)
ArPharazonV: grats!
VardaValar1: Yay!
AriehnV: five more to horse lol
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
VardaValar1: Save gold!
AriehnV: its so unfair walking so long bleh
ArPharazonV: pfah, in WoW it was 40 until the nerfs!
ArPharazonV: should be used to it
VardaValar1: The horses after expansion will be showing up earlier.
VardaValar1: A Bree-horse, the slow pony, will be available to others besides the Founders, but the Founders get to have it 5 levels earlier.
VardaValar1: <------ a Founder, one of those who came in at the beginning of live LotRO.
VardaValar1: Done.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, we're almost to Tolkien time. Just one more question...
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming this week?
VardaValar1: SC/BW by the Laytonrim.
VardaValar1: A batch of games that I don't quite know what are that some of them play, including Atlantica.
ArPharazonV: I played a few games, will tell about them after Varda
VardaValar1: Done.
ArPharazonV: well, for a start, I finished Battle for Middle Earth 1, the good campaign
ArPharazonV: had good fun levelling all the heroes and maxing out my armies before the Black Gate battle, and in fact managed to get through it without losing a single hero or batallion of units (but then, it wasn't the highest difficulty to be honest)
ArPharazonV: next up in single-player games will be Battle for Middle Earth II, but I'll need to move some folders around to have room for it on the right partition, probably
ArPharazonV: I've also set foot once again, a year to the day since I last played if I recall right, in Guild Wars
ArPharazonV: found myself guildless, but contacted a few officers from the guild I was in before I quit playing a year ago, and now I'm part of that Guild again though it seems to be a lot less active than last year :-)
ArPharazonV: but we'll see! it'll be tough getting all the mechanics etc in my head again, but I'll do my best
ArPharazonV: so if anyone's around in there and wants to meet me, my name is Caliona Darkbloom, ranger/monk
ArPharazonV: but that should be on the gaming page I think
ArPharazonV: and that was it
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, for some reason it's not. I'll try and rememdy that as soon as I can.
Eonwe Valar: *remedy
ArPharazonV: oki
Eonwe Valar: Fladrif also has some gaming news. Go ahead, Fladrif.
fladrifv: yes
fladrifv: hello here your local SL reporter speaking [Note: Second Life]
fladrifv: we had a haloween party lately
pallandovalar has entered the room.
pallandovalar has left the room.
fladrifv: they did a great job changing their land into a cementary
fladrifv: with ghosts traps and everything
ArPharazonV: oh, nice
pallandovalar has left the room.
fladrifv: I went as beetlejuice
fladrifv: and I have done the lotro quiz  [Note: Monday and Friday for Faery Crossing at the Mushroom Circle.]
fladrifv: which hardly anyone knew the answers to
fladrifv: that was it :-)
fladrifv: *trys not to destroy the stage*
AriehnV: nicely done
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Fladrif :} Hope you had fun :}
fladrifv: always Eonwe always
Eonwe Valar: If there is no more gaming, then let's move to Tolkien.
AriehnV: i am downloading atlantica atm
AriehnV: and will have a peep in if i get some time
AriehnV: but not before tomorrow hehe
Eonwe Valar: :}
AriehnV: that s it
Eonwe Valar: Hope it turns out to be fun for you :}

Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
Eonwe Valar: Varda had an interesting topic to consider.
VardaValar1: What animals existed in Middle-earth that we no longer see that we are aware of and what role did they play in the storyline?
ArPharazonV: what do you mean with "that we no longer see"?
Eonwe Valar: I guess Fastitocalon wouldn't count. All he did was drown some sailors :}
VardaValar1: As in when we walk outside today.
VardaValar1: Sure, he counts. :-)
VardaValar1: He's an animal and we don't see his kind today.
VardaValar1: The tales of Middle-earth are supposed to be our very ancient history.
Eonwe Valar: If I'm understanding the question properly, I would put for the Great Eagles.
Eonwe Valar: *put forth
ArPharazonV: what book is he from?
VardaValar1: You also get to mention how the critter is used in the story-line. : )
Eonwe Valar: Fastitocalon is from Adventures of Tom Bombadil if memory serves.
ArPharazonV: ahh
ArPharazonV: the book I couldn't find...
AriehnV: i cant remember that one
ArPharazonV: I'll put forth the Dragons as animals
AriehnV: will u enlighten us?
AriehnV: Smaug was the last one?
ArPharazonV: that we know of, though it has never been confirmed that he was the last of his kind
AriehnV: *There is only one Dragon here and that is Green"
ArPharazonV: in The Hobbit it is stated that there were multiple dragons in the mountains to the north
Eonwe Valar: The Eagles of Manwë rescue Fingolfin's body after their duel, bore Maedhros and Fingon when the latter goes to rescue the former, aid in the Battle of Five Armies in the Third Age, ...
ArPharazonV: and when the Dwarves came down to Erebor, Smaug, an "especially wicked" one I believe, came down to drive em out
ArPharazonV: but it's never said the others were killed... and now I'll wait until Eonwe's finished :-)
VardaValar1: Fastitocalon is in number 11 of The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. Shows in my "The Tolkien Reader".
AriehnV: i ment Fastiwhatsoever
Eonwe Valar: I'll stop there :} I think that's enough to show they had a part :}
VardaValar1: Dragons were known to be in the mountains north of Greenwood, I believe it was?
ArPharazonV: could be
ArPharazonV: in any case, the role of the dragons in the storylines were quite interesting IMO
Eonwe Valar: The remnanats of the Iron Mountains that were the southern border of Utumno housed dragons.
VardaValar1: Thanks : )
Eonwe Valar: The area I think was known as the Withered Heath..
ArPharazonV: they usually provided the role of a secondary antagonist, quite powerful and intelligent, though never as world-threatening as Morgoth and Sauron, sometimes working on their own and sometimes semi-obeying those named two
ArPharazonV: while having little influence on a long-term scale in the grand scheme of things, they did provide some of our heroes (as Turin and Thorin (coincidence?)) with a personal quest/vendetta for their own personal legends
ArPharazonV: which gives them a unique role in my eyes
ArPharazonV: Ancalagon doesn't really all under that role, but his fall to one of the heroes we know was a mentionable feat in the war of wrath
AriehnV: Smaug provided the frist great test for Bilbo in his burglar role
ArPharazonV: *fall
VardaValar1: Dain I was slain with his second son, Frór, at the doors of his hall by a great cold-drake.
VardaValar1: His kingdom was constantly at war with the dragons of the Northern Waste towards the end of his reign.
VardaValar1: Smaug had his home in the Grey Mountains.
ArPharazonV: originally, yes, among the other dragons
VardaValar1: Dragons were very much in the story-lines, I quite agree!
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar.
ArPharazonV: but he was noted as wicked when compared to his kind :-)
ArPharazonV: more wicked, anyway
VardaValar1: He left to go after the dwarves' hoard in Erebor, kept it for around 200 years. Bilbo got him. : )
ArPharazonV: The Hobbit tells of a "most specially greedy, strong and wicked worm called Smaug"
VardaValar1: Dragons in general weren't considered good, so one that's especially wicked would be a worry. : )
ArPharazonV: must've been something special, if he was more that way than other dragons :-)
VardaValar1: Aye!
VardaValar1: What about Fell Beasts?
VardaValar1: Unnatural, bred at the order of the Dark Lord, but still beasts. Nourished on unpleasant things and ridden by the Nazgul.
VardaValar1: Perhaps some of the drakes or dragons were used in their creation?
VardaValar1: (Creation is too strong a word, breeding I should say.)
ArPharazonV: Trolls were based on Ents, in principle... Orcs were based on Elves...
ArPharazonV: while not being used in the breeding, maybe felbeasts were based on Eagles?
VardaValar1: There were trolls before, but bred up to be smarter, stronger....
ArPharazonV: well I think I read somewhere that trolls were based on ents.. bah, I can never remember the source of these things
ArPharazonV: doesn't it sound familiar to anyone?
Eonwe Valar: Trolls were. Treebeard says it.
VardaValar1: They needed to be made strong enough to counter ents, and yes, trolls were made in mockery of the ents.
VardaValar1: What Eonwe said. : )
Eonwe Valar: "Trolls were made in mockery of Ents, as Ents were of Elves." He then goes on to say that Ents are much stronger.
ArPharazonV: good :-)
ArPharazonV: then maybe fel beasts were made in mockery of Eagles?
VardaValar1: Say orcs for ents, and aye. : )
Eonwe Valar: Er, yeah, bah.
VardaValar1: Possibly, Phar, although it's not mentioned.
Eonwe Valar: Replace that second "Ents" with "Orcs"
Eonwe Valar: Any other creatures we know of?
Eonwe Valar: Wargs?
VardaValar1: Good one. Wargs in mockery of wolves.
ArPharazonV: wargs, yep, other large wolves.... hmm... I should really re-read the Silmarillion to remember that wolf's name
ArPharazonV: the one that bit off Beren's hand
VardaValar1: Also used as a mockery of horses considering how they were used to ride.
Eonwe Valar: Though both wargs and wolves it seems were used by Morgoth and his servants, which is interesting.
VardaValar1: Carcharoth
ArPharazonV: ah
ArPharazonV: hmm, reminds me of Tevildo's giant cats :-)
VardaValar1: If they were breeding wolves to be wargs, they would have had wolves to work with, one assumes.
VardaValar1: And there were werewolves, were-bears, but not on the same side. : )
Eonwe Valar: Aye, but notice that Morgoth doesn't do that with other of his creatures/minions. Orcs are used in his armies, but not really corrupted Elves.
ArPharazonV: what are the basic differences between wolves and wargs?
Eonwe Valar: Trolls, but not Ents.
ArPharazonV: maybe elves were harder to corrupt? as well as ents
VardaValar1: Wolves being a trainable creature, the early wild dog, that can be understood.
ArPharazonV: not really of much use in his service until the transformation or breeding was complete
Eonwe Valar: Dwarves seem to have fought for him in the War of the Last Alliance at the end of the Second Age, but he couldn't pervert those into a form more suitable for him.
VardaValar1: Elves and ents were intelligent, wolves were animals.
ArPharazonV: goblins, Eonwe? ;-)
VardaValar1: Dwarves?
Eonwe Valar: Hehe. Goblins = Orcs = Elves :}
ArPharazonV: pfeh, there were lesser breeds of orc
Eonwe Valar: None that came from Dwarves though, which is what I assumed you were getting at :}
VardaValar1: There were at least two more types of creature.
ArPharazonV: could've been!
VardaValar1: Aye, Dwarves were tough and hard to change, even with Rings.
Eonwe Valar: Dwarevs were created by Aulë to resist that kind of stuff.
Eonwe Valar: *Dwarves
VardaValar1: I'm thinking of two types of animals we have today that had more intelligent types back in Middle-earth times.
ArPharazonV: dogs?
ArPharazonV: Huan?
Eonwe Valar: I'm guessing the other is horses :}
VardaValar1: Huan was a Maia, but true. Didn't have that in mind. Good job. : )
ArPharazonV: swans? :-)
VardaValar1: Mearas: intelligent horses that understood speech.
VardaValar1: Swans? As in the ones that pulled boats?
ArPharazonV: *goes through the Middle-Earth fauna* Crebain?
ArPharazonV: yes, those swans
VardaValar1: Ok, you are coming up with more than I made a list of. Wonderful. : )
VardaValar1: Thrushes and Ravens could come to mind.
ArPharazonV: oh, right, those!
ArPharazonV: when the thrush knocks...
VardaValar1: Those had particular intelligent races they worked with, as Dwarves and Humans, and spoke to them.
VardaValar1: I'm going to add spiders and let you play with that. : )
ArPharazonV: hmmm
ArPharazonV: Shelob
ArPharazonV: and the Mirkwoodians of course
VardaValar1: and Ungoliant before Shelob, aye.
VardaValar1: I'm very glad they are lesser now!
ArPharazonV: haha
VardaValar1: Ok, that covered my list and added some. : )
VardaValar1: Thanks. : )
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, I can imagine a spider sitting in the corner of a room plotting to ensnare you in its web.... all 200 layers of web it would take to actually hold a person these days :}
VardaValar1: hehehehe
VardaValar1: They get around it with poison maybe?
ArPharazonV: lot of poison needed to paralyze a human
ArPharazonV: especially a one-inch housespider or so
Eonwe Valar: Spider poison is still plenty dangerous.
VardaValar1: Mumakil may have been somewhat larger than today's elephants, not sure.
Eonwe Valar: Depending on spider.
ArPharazonV: the ones I usually see sitting in the corner aren't supposed to be that dangerous
VardaValar1: I recently killed a number of black widow spiders, and I'm otherwise not a killer of spiders.
AriehnV: Shelob the last daughter of Ungoliant if i remember right?
Eonwe Valar: I got the impression they were, but then "bigger than a house" to a Hobbit house may not be "bigger than a house" for a human house.
VardaValar1: The ones in the corner, spinning their plots concerning the bugs that are more noticeable to them than giant us? : )
VardaValar1: Aye, Arien.
ArPharazonV: the ones in the movie were definitely bigger than elephants, but that doesn't mean anything
AriehnV: oooh spoiders klled a lot of those lately in lotro .. *scratches head*
VardaValar1: hehehe
VardaValar1: and Mirkwood is next...
ArPharazonV: does the book make any notice of the constructions on their backs? the people in them?
VardaValar1: A little.
VardaValar1: That made them sound like they had to be really big.
ArPharazonV: if so, you'd expect something a tad larger than our current ones I'd say
ArPharazonV: hmhm
AriehnV: Mumaks .. remind a bit of mammoths
Eonwe Valar: That might've been the intention.
ArPharazonV: I'd bet on it that the mammoths in WoW are smaller than mumakil :-)
AriehnV: and those were somewhat larger than our elephants today
Eonwe Valar: Hehe.
AriehnV: i guess , aye
VardaValar1: Well said. : )
AriehnV: mind you i wonder how they got the saddle construction on the back of those giants
ArPharazonV: ladders
AriehnV: those seemed to be towers in themselves
ArPharazonV: use loose pieces, build it up on the mumak itself
Eonwe Valar: Don't suppose the Haradrim had alot of trees...
VardaValar1: Have the mumak walk up to a scaffolding where the construction is sitting and pull it across?
ArPharazonV: I'd still swear I saw something about apes from forests to the south in one of the Return of the King chapters
Eonwe Valar: Otherwise they could build it between a pair of trees a little taller than the mumak, then have the mumak walk under, and lower it on.
VardaValar1: Maybe that's one reason the Haradrim needed a bit of conquest? : )
ArPharazonV: but I've never been able to find that statement
ArPharazonV: if there were forests to the south, that could explain it
ArPharazonV: Mordor up north, Harad-desert to the south, jungles to the south of that
VardaValar1: I would expect forests to the south, be the equator.
ArPharazonV: honestly, you can't breed elephants in a desert... savannah, sure, but not desert
VardaValar1: Even a desert has some trees, often shorter.
VardaValar1: African elephants
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: I hear places called deserts and look at them and they aren't just sand dunes at all. They merely have low rainfall.
ArPharazonV: True. We don't know Harad was actually a desert. Was there anything mentioned about their clothing in the books? because their movie outfits do suggest "sahara nomads"
Eonwe Valar: We know it was hot, nad I think we know there are *some* deserts.
Eonwe Valar: *nad = and
ArPharazonV: but is it sahara-hot, or savannah-hot?
VardaValar1: Aye, deserts are usually areas within other areas. So Harad may have had less dry areas.
VardaValar1: Could have had both.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
ArPharazonV: well that would give them the environment to breed Mumakil, and possible a clump of trees here and there
ArPharazonV: *possibly
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: And a tower doesn't have to have a lot of wood, can be partly leather with a wood frame.
VardaValar1: Then they could use bone or tusks.
Eonwe Valar: "Harad" simply means south ad referes to the lands south of the river Harnan. Could easily be alot of hot places of varying climates.
Eonwe Valar: ad = and
Eonwe Valar: referes = refers,
ArPharazonV: almost though that was some latin term you were using :-)
ArPharazonV: ad referes!
ArPharazonV: *thought
VardaValar1: If it is like Africa, it would have a lot of different biome types. Desert, savannah, and jungle.
ArPharazonV: that's a big stretch of Africa though
ArPharazonV: some few thousands of kilometres
ArPharazonV: how large would the Haradrim reasonably have under control?
VardaValar1: Short scrub trees have very strong wood, and can be used as frames.
VardaValar1: Doesn't have to be controlled. Could be from trade.
Eonwe Valar: The Haradrim were all their own peoples as well.
AriehnV: i had the impression that the haradrim were more a nomadic people
Eonwe Valar: Different tribes.
ArPharazonV: "We'll trade you a mumakil or 2 for xx stacks of lumber!"
AriehnV: *nods*
ArPharazonV: wonder what else the nomadic tribes would have to barter... tradition calls for silk :-)
VardaValar1: Hides, ivory
AriehnV: silk, cheese, hides, wool
AriehnV: ivory of cpirs
AriehnV: course
VardaValar1: Scrimshaw
VardaValar1: Drinks
AriehnV: Whats that?
AriehnV: Scrimshaw i mean
VardaValar1: Carvings in ivory.
AriehnV: thanks :-)
VardaValar1: My pleasure.
Eonwe Valar: My Atlas of ME suggests semi-arid for what looks like most of Near Harad and the visible lands east of Mordor.
VardaValar1: Tulkas-(Valar) does scrimshaw, in a side note. : )
VardaValar1: Semi-arid allows for that savannah of Phar's. : )
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
ArPharazonV: yay savannah!
Eonwe Valar: The coastlands of Near Harad suggest humid climates with mild winters and hot, dry summers.
ArPharazonV: like... mediterranean?
VardaValar1: Coastal areas let them have a lot of trade possibilities too.
ArPharazonV: Hmm. Yeah. I think this paleo-climatology/ecology course is rubbing off on me
ArPharazonV: I'm starting to recognize climates
VardaValar1: Good! You can use it now. : )
AriehnV: i think that most of the food and supplies for the non - orc and undead servants came from there
VardaValar1: And aye, the Mediterranean is like that.
VardaValar1: California too.
VardaValar1: So they could have fruits.
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, other page says for examples of "Semi-arid" : Iran, Great Plains (e.g. Eastern Colorado)
VardaValar1: West Texas : )
Eonwe Valar: For "Mild Winter, Hot,Dry Summer" it says :"Mediterranean Sea area, Southern California"
VardaValar1: We have a lot of really good farmland and ranches in West Texas.
VardaValar1: Thanks, that helps quite a bit in visualizing, Eonwe. : )
AriehnV: i fear i have to saddle my horse and ride into west ,strangers
Eonwe Valar: MP :}
VardaValar1: Question: do we put talking thrushes and ravens under Intelligent Non-Humanoids or under Animals in the Tolkien Encyclopedia?
AriehnV: *oops that was John Wayne and not Tolkien my bad lol
VardaValar1: They both used horses. : )
AriehnV: true :-) all right
Eonwe Valar: I would put them under Animals.
Eonwe Valar: They were still, by nature, animals.
VardaValar1: Sounds right.
ArPharazonV: so were eagles, what were they under? :-)
Eonwe Valar: I would put them and Huan under Aminals :}
Eonwe Valar: Animals rather. Aminals don't need a category :}
VardaValar1: Huan was a Maia, wasn't he? Just chose animal form.
Eonwe Valar: I never got that impression.
AriehnV: where does it say that Huan was Maia , Eonwe?
ArPharazonV: that does ring a bell, yes
Eonwe Valar: I know we've had the discussion and Irmo fka Salmar fka Huan probably argued he was, but I don't think I was ever convinced.
VardaValar1: I argued for it. :-)
VardaValar1: No definite proof either way.
Eonwe Valar: We probably have a paper by that very Irmo in the encyclopedia on said topic.
VardaValar1: Being a born being, he could not really be a Maia.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: He had so many of the other characteristics of a Maia that we kind of need a sub-Maia category. : )
Eonwe Valar: hehe
VardaValar1: Born in Valinor, for instance.
Eonwe Valar: Lost Maiar? :}
VardaValar1: Like you? : )
VardaValar1: He had high intelligence and the capacity for judgement and speech.
Eonwe Valar: Eonwë is a Lost Valar. I was playing off of that :}
VardaValar1: He was simply not allowed to speak more than three times after going to Middle-earth.
VardaValar1: Huan could plan.
VardaValar1: He could see that the one he served, Celegorm, was not acting right and that Huan should work for Luthien and Beren instead.
VardaValar1: There were also many elves born in Valinor. But they were not Maia.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: So he could be a Non-Human Intelligence.
VardaValar1: I'm thinking Nahar does not get to show his intelligence, but he is the ancestor of the Mearas, some of whom do get to show that a bit.
VardaValar1: I'd guess he could have had some great stories. : )
Eonwe Valar: I think I argued at the time that Huan was "merely" the first (or one of the first) of his kind. The predecessors seem to have in many ways greater faculties than proceeding generations.
VardaValar1: What was he the first of?
Eonwe Valar: If not dogs in general, then perhaps wolfhounds.
Eonwe Valar: Growing up in Aman would've also presented its own blessings.
VardaValar1: Wolves still seem to be the ancestors of dogs.
AriehnV: wolfhounds migh yowl late in the night .. but if i yowl any longer i wont be good for anything tomorrow at six am :-(
VardaValar1: We don't see any progeny from Huan, but maybe they were not mentioned.
VardaValar1: Go to sleep, Arien. : )
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien :}
VardaValar1: The sun sinks in the West.
ArPharazonV: namarie Arien
ArPharazonV: got the day off tomorrow so I can stick around for a bit, though catching up on this week's browsing
AriehnV: Namarie frends :-) i shall see u next week at some point somewhere someplace
VardaValar1: See you in LotRO and/or AIM! : )
AriehnV: be safe .. or as safe as u can
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Nor do we of Nahar, but we know there were other horses in Valinor that spawned the mearas eventually.
VardaValar1: We have a good clue that Nahar is the ancestor of the Mearas. And that they were around at the same time as other types of horses.
ArPharazonV: Eorl's horse come to mind
VardaValar1: Felarof
VardaValar1: They came to be called Mearas when they were with the Rohirrim.
Eonwe Valar: I don't recall anythign explicit that Nahar was the anscestor of the mearas, only that the mearas were horses from Valinor.
VardaValar1: Aye, all implied, inferred.
VardaValar1: JRRT did a lot of that, and some of our guesses may be way off. : )
Eonwe Valar: It's reasonable that Nahar wasn't the only horse to be created at the beginning of horses, even if he was the first.
VardaValar1: The Noldor don't seem to mention bringing over horses from Valinor. Came by ship or walked on the ice at the end. Maybe some horses came with them that way?
Eonwe Valar: And I'm not sure off the top of my head if he was the first either, even if that would be fitting.
VardaValar1: The Noldor certainly did ride, both in Valinor and in Middle-earth.
VardaValar1: Riding seems to be so normal that it's often not mentioned.
Eonwe Valar: My Complete guide suggests nahar was progenitor for both mearas and "elf-horses."
ArPharazonV: who's to say they did not use horses native to Middle Earth?
VardaValar1: They might have, Phar.
Eonwe Valar: Setting the Nahar part aside, it seems reasonable that the Noldor would've brought horses from Aman to carry their stuff.
ArPharazonV: and yeah, they might've been bright by Feanor and his ships, or the mearas might have come with in the war of wrath
ArPharazonV: ....brought
VardaValar1: Horses native to Middle-earth may have been around for the trip going from Cuivienen towards Valinor, and they would have been around Nahar.
Eonwe Valar: Oromë may have brought them on any one of his many hunting trips before the Elves even awoke.
VardaValar1: As he did with Nahar, aye.
Eonwe Valar: Let's see if I can get the description just right on this....
VardaValar1: Orome was not the only one visiting from Valinor either.
Eonwe Valar: Yavanna planted seeds all over Middle-Earth that were waiting for Light. I think it's safe to assume there would be animals "sleeping" like the plants, waiting for their time to awaken. Aman is more like a garden for the Valar, with the best of the best there.
VardaValar1: Looking at the Huan article, whether or not he was a Maia is left open.
VardaValar1: Well said, Eonwe. : )
Eonwe Valar: The Light in Aman was much stronger, and the presence of the Valar themselves affected that land, so much so that the Noldor attained greater power, ability, and beauty for having been there.
VardaValar1: Thus the plants and animals would also.
Eonwe Valar: To think that would be lost on the flora and fauna of the land as well is to ignore its affects alltogether.
Eonwe Valar: The effects of Sauron and Morgoth on their lands is evidence enough that it does affect the flora and fauna.
VardaValar1: Had to be really great horses if any crossed the Helcaraxe.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, it was no doubt as rough for them as it was for the Noldor leading them.
VardaValar1: I would expect it to be rougher, as food would be a major problem. Horses eat a lot and need a lot of water.
ArPharazonV: wouldn't be surprised if Feanor took all the horses with him on his ships, leaving the rest to walk
VardaValar1: Distinct possibility.
Eonwe Valar: Seems to me he only took what was his or his sons anyway.
Eonwe Valar: *sons'
VardaValar1: and what belonged to the Teleri, e.g. ships.
Eonwe Valar: Yeah, that too, but I meant as cargo :}
VardaValar1: It just doesn't say anything about the horses. That leaves us stuck with speculation.
Eonwe Valar: He would've taken what provision he thought he needed for the trip over and for the founding of a kingdom, but as he wanted speed he wouldn't have brought anything heavy and useless.
Eonwe Valar: So I don't think he would've bothered with "all" the horses.
VardaValar1: Horses would add speed and hauling once they were across.
VardaValar1: Not all, aye.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, shall we call it here? :}
VardaValar1: Good spot. : )
ArPharazonV: okidoki
VardaValar1: Always a pleasure chatting with you folks. : )
Eonwe Valar: It was a good topic :} Kept us going for a little over an hour, hehe :}
VardaValar1: And food for articles.
VardaValar1: One we don't usually discuss, too. : )
Eonwe Valar: Homework assignment: Everyone go find out more about Harad :}
Eonwe Valar: *the Harad
VardaValar1: One is the land, one the people.
Eonwe Valar: Haradrim = peopel :}
Eonwe Valar: *people
VardaValar1: okies
VardaValar1: You're right. : )
Eonwe Valar: *Raises gavel high above his head*
VardaValar1: *steps well back*
Eonwe Valar: *Brings gavel crashing down, ending the meeting*

Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting :}
VardaValar1: *eyes the remnants of the podium*
VardaValar1: Aule! A bit of repair work for you!
ArPharazonV: looks like Fladrif jumped again!
VardaValar1: It does, doesn't it? : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: Namarie for now, good folk. : )
Eonwe Valar: Oh, I've posted to the RP, for those folks concerned :}
Eonwe Valar: Take care and have fun Varda :}
VardaValar1: *supper calls*
ArPharazonV: enjoy!
VardaValar1: Good post by the way. Setting us up for orcs.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.
Eonwe Valar: :}
fladrifv: namarie, wish I had more time for the meeting then I had today
ArPharazonV: namarie Flad
VardaValar1: Namarie
arwenv1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Arwen! Hi!
fladrifv has left the room.
VardaValar1: Meeting's over. : )
arwenv1: :-)
VardaValar1: Ever hear of water puppetry? It was new to me.
VardaValar1: Meriadoc sent this to show me what it was:
VardaValar1: Someone he knows told a bit about it
VardaValar1: Here's what was said:
VardaValar1: One of the things that intrigued me the first time I went to Vietnam to make films (1994) , were the traditional water puppets.
VardaValar1: In the olden days, the travelling puppet theatre used to come to the village and set up shop in the nearest water paddy field with the "stage" being the water itself and the puppetiers hiding behind a screen and operating and animating the puppets on long poles hidden under the water.
VardaValar1: The audience used to sit on the side of the field along the pathways in their thousands - absolutely fabulous.
VardaValar1: Our guide told us that this was how stories and legands of history were told and how the culture of vietnam was pased down from father to son .
VardaValar1: These days thay have probably undated the stories and have integrated model B52's crashing into the lake !
VardaValar1: *finis*
ArPharazonV: impressive
ArPharazonV: can they actually see the puppets they're controlling or is it all done by memory?
VardaValar1: I think they see it about as well as a string puppeteer.
VardaValar1: They show the pictures of the operators in the video.
ArPharazonV: that the people on the left side?
VardaValar1: Yes.
ArPharazonV: then they should have good view, I thought they were hidden behind the screen shown behind the puppets
VardaValar1: I'm wondering if the one trying to catch fish with the basket is actually competing with the ones operating with the fish, for fun. : )
arwenv1 has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya.
ArPharazonV: aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
VardaValar1: Welcome to After-meeting :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Sorry I'm so late :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Have to pick my meetings, as sundays are also game nights :-D
VardaValar1: Luckily you can scroll back : )
VardaValar1: Eonwe posted to the RP. : )
Menelvagor Valar: So I read in the pm :-)
Eonwe Valar: pm?
Menelvagor Valar: private or personal message.
VardaValar1: Private message
Menelvagor Valar: aka side window :-)
ArPharazonV: I call it an IM
VardaValar1: Main thing is to let you know about the rp happenings. : )
Eonwe Valar: ok.
ArPharazonV: well I'm off to bed
ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript