March 4, 2007 Meeting
5pm EST (GMT - 5);
(GMT = 22:00)
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AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
Transcript work by: Ar-Pharzon-(V)
ArPharazonV, Beorn-(V)/TwoSurlyDwarves, Eonwe Valar, FinduilasV,
Gelmir-(V)/Shaggyjoe, Gilraen-(V)/Star of Phaet, GwaihirValar,
Olwe-(V)/FallenGlory, Orodreth V/Oessala, Oropher-(V)/MJKeenan1234,
Some folks say there's really not any "magic" in
Middle-earth. It is a fantasy, so do any of you care to differ with
that person's comment? Or agree with it?
Two stories planned.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Ar-Pharazon!
ArPharazonV: Aiya Varda Elentari!
FallenGlory has entered the room.
FinduilasV has entered the room.
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
Star of Phaet has entered the room.
MJKeenan1234 has entered the room.
GwaihirValar: Well.... apparantly AIM Express now allows chat rooms...
Srekal86 has entered the room.
LaurealasseHelka has entered the room.
GwaihirValar: Aiya folks, I'll be leaving at some point when I've hit
the limit of what I'm willing to spend on expensive hourly internet at
a crappy ups store with a barely functional computer... but that'll be
a little time off at least ;-)
VardaValar1: Hail :-)
VardaValar1: Since your time is limited, did you have anything you
wanted brought up at the meeting?
ArPharazonV: Finduilas will be late
VardaValar1: Thanks, Phar
ArPharazonV: she's healing in UBRS for attunement
ArPharazonV: I will be logging off shortly, just gotta head back to the
GwaihirValar: For those wondering... I'm in between flights at the
Calgary airport... just passing the time as the end of my 10 hour
layover approaches hehe
VardaValar1: That's a long layover!
GwaihirValar: (Its very hard to spend 10 hours with no tv, computer, or
ArPharazonV: I myself have been raiding again this week, has been a
VardaValar1: Gives Gilraen a chance to see your progress, Gwaihir : )
GwaihirValar: And in not too long a chance to see me ;-)
ArPharazonV: got myself attuned to Karazhan and in a raidgroup for that
place built up of old members of our old pre-BC raidgroup, got my first
two pieces of epic gear from there
VardaValar1: Phar, would you like to tell that in the WoW section or
are you about to leave?
VardaValar1: Congrats also : )
ArPharazonV: I usually tell it in the beginning, because WoW section
seems mainly for Guild-reports
VardaValar1: Sounds like progress : )
ArPharazonV: I also went to Gruul's Lair for the first time with my old
raidgroup, been a load of fun.... no bosses killed there yet
ArPharazonV: so I'm back in the game ;-)
VardaValar1: Nice : ) Welcome back!
Oessala has entered the room.
VardaValar1: If anyone has anything they want to add during the
meeting, please don't be shy. Let me know and we'll get to everyone.
Orodreth V has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Orodreth : )
ArPharazonV: of course, that does give me a busy schedule again...
ArPharazonV: raids on tuesday, thursday, friday, saturday afternoon,
and sunday afternoon...
ArPharazonV: but it's worth it ;-)
VardaValar1: Keeps us off the streets. : )
VardaValar1: Let's start
sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership news:
joined us this last week during the last meeting. That's the most
efficient time to join and you can keep a record of it if you like.
VardaValar1: Dreamlord-(TV) of
Denmark has been accepted for a doctoral program in the US
VardaValar1: He was our previous Irmo-(Valar) in case any of you are
TwoSurlyDwarves has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Beorn
LaurealasseHelka: ((Shoot, I am sorry, I have to go))
GwaihirValar: nice, thats great for him :-)
LaurealasseHelka has left the room.
VardaValar1: Beorn says he
will be away from WoW for about a month, but hopes to return after
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: He also hopes to be on the forums and at meetings
VardaValar1: maybe slip us an article here and there. : )
VardaValar1: Any other membership news?
VardaValar1: Then on to
VardaValar1: New book review
by Franco Manni-(TV)
VardaValar1: "Christopher Garbowski, Recovery and Transcendence for the
Contemporary Mythmaker. The Spiritual Dimension in the Works of J. R.
R. Tolkien, Maria Curie-Sklodowska University Press, Lublin (Poland),
2000, 232 pages."
VardaValar1: long name :-)
VardaValar1: The book concerns the spiritual dimension in Tolkien's
VardaValar1: New story:
Fall of Thuringwethil" by Enerdhil-(TV)
VardaValar1: It might be a PG-13 rating, but just borderline.
Eonwe Valar: Which border?
VardaValar1: Turgon-(V) sent in new art. One is up now and the other
was just emailed today and should be up this week.
VardaValar1: just barely PG-13, for mention of demonic orgies : )
Eonwe Valar: ok :}
VardaValar1: I wouldn't worry much about it. Commercials are far worse.
GwaihirValar: long as there're no details or descriptions, I figure
VardaValar1: Turgon's latest art
is on Tol
VardaValar1: I agree, Gwaihir
VardaValar1: It's in service of the story and didn't need to be graphic.
VardaValar1: so it wasn't
VardaValar1: Two links were
VardaValar1: One concerns how the mithril
shirt might have been made, as one can see nanotechnology as
magic of a sort. : )
VardaValar1: This article may leave us before long, so here's the link:
VardaValar1: A family friend who is especially a friend of Sauron's for
many years, sent us this link
VardaValar1: He and Sauron are both DM's for D&D and Tolkien fans,
so this comic speaks much to them : )
VardaValar1: It's still in progress, updated M W F
VardaValar1: It's a DM trying to run a campaign using the LotR as his
VardaValar1: The players have not read it nor seen the movie, quite
clueless. : )
ArPharazonV: sounds fun
VardaValar1: One more bit of Tolkien news from Dreamlord
VardaValar1: Some we know, some may be new. Books coming out:
VardaValar1: Michael Drout's JRRT encyclopedia
VardaValar1: Christopher's "The Children of H�rin"
VardaValar1: Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull's "Companion"
VardaValar1: , (plus the very worthwhile proceedings from the Richard
E. Blackwelder conference)
VardaValar1: and, perhaps most interesting of all, Doug Anderson's
collection of all the JRRT interviews, and first-hand impressions from
his family and friends.
VardaValar1: I want that last one for sure. : )
VardaValar1: and of course the Children of Hurin
VardaValar1: I have a completed short story by Alasse in my email that
should go up tonight or tomorrow.
VardaValar1: and am almost done editing "Dark Visions" for Cassia and
VardaValar1: It should be up tonight or tomorrow.
VardaValar1: Any further web news from anyone?
Srekal86: what is "Companion"?
Srekal86: Scull/Hammond wrote "The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's
Companion" and "J.R.R. Tolkien: A Companion and Guide" but those have
all been released.
VardaValar1: Apparently a new Companion to join those, including
proceedings from the Richard E. Blackwelder conference.
VardaValar1: If there is no further web news?
VardaValar1: Which games were played this week that weren't LotRO or
WoW? : )
VardaValar1: D&D Eberron tabletop
with several Valar members and guild-friends count? : )
GwaihirValar: I played the wow tcg...
but thats still wow... lol
GwaihirValar: I've got 7 people at my work now buying cards... its a
good turn of events for me hehe
VardaValar1: We'll take that. ; )
TwoSurlyDwarves: yeah, I played the wow boardgame friday with my
VardaValar1: Fun : )
TwoSurlyDwarves: its one of the best boardgames I've played, feels like
VardaValar1: And you thought you were getting away from WoW this month!
VardaValar1: Eonwe has a WoW general
report to start us off.
Eonwe Valar: Blizzard has a new page in beta: The WoW Armory.
Eonwe Valar: It lists every character regularly used above level 10,
including armor, stats, professions, rep,.. pretty much everything on
your character panel :}
Eonwe Valar: You can also look up guilds rosters and such.
Eonwe Valar: Over all quite nice, but since it's not a complete list of
guild characters, they did not succeed in putting me out of a job :}
Eonwe Valar: I'd recommend taking a look.
ArPharazonV: it's not very accurate
ArPharazonV: it put my character in a horde arena-group...
ArPharazonV: I'm alliance and in no group :-)
VardaValar1: Also, they can't tell us the primary names.
Eonwe Valar: Ar you sure it's the right character? There's about 80
Auros' US-wide :}
ArPharazonV: it's the right character... right server, right guild,
right class, right level... it even says I'm alliance
Eonwe Valar: Er, that's a typo, not a pun.
ArPharazonV: *but* I'm in a horde battlegroup
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, ok
ArPharazonV: it also says I haven't been active in a long while
Eonwe Valar: That's why it's still in beta :}
ArPharazonV: while I play every day :-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye, some of my characters, which all get logged in
regularly, say they're inactive a swell.
GwaihirValar: Bingo Eo, thats why its still in beta... also so they can
judge whether people are going to go crazy over the whole craze of
calling it an 'invasion of privacy' or not
Eonwe Valar: It's not perfect :} Another reason they didn't put me out
of a job :}
Eonwe Valar: So, for the best character info in a low-rez form, the
Sortable tables will remain :}
Eonwe Valar: That does it for my news.
VardaValar1: Thank you, gentlemen. : )
VardaValar1: Finduilas, do we have a WoW Euro report for Argent Dawn?
VardaValar1: Fin still afk in WoW, Phar?
ArPharazonV: probably, I'm not in WoW anymore
VardaValar1: Okies. Can you give the report for her or would you like
to stall? : )
ArPharazonV: I'll ask her in IM
ArPharazonV: I would like to postpone it to a later point, as I myself
have not so much to tell except that I gave her a list of all my
characters and their professions this week
VardaValar1: Meanwhile, we can do the ones for the Americas, no problem.
Oessala: I can talk about how awesome Eve
VardaValar1: Sounds useful for the web site or forum.
FinduilasV: greetings from BR Stadium\
VardaValar1: That was supposed to come before the WoW report. hehe.
VardaValar1: Fin, we can do Lothar while you're busy.
VardaValar1: Eonwe, go ahead with Lothar.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.
Eonwe Valar: This week Varda, Beline, and Eonw� went into Hellfire
Ramparts. Joining us was a friend of Beline's, Feroce, and a random
person, Sunstriker. Our goal: Weaken the Ramparts.
Eonwe Valar: The whole run was a rather bumpy ride. Not long into the
instance we lost Feroce. Since our attempt to press on were of no
avail, and after giving Feroce ample time to return, we looked for a
Eonwe Valar: This was a random warrior named Tiramisu. Things went a
bit more smoothly until we got to the second boss. Beline had to go for
a while and was unfortunately unable to return in time.
Eonwe Valar: Sunstriker also had to go not long after. Fortunately, a
guild friend named Kaizu joined us, and a friend of Tiramisu's also
joined us. We beat the second boss and the third boss with this group,
and called it a night.
VardaValar1: Tira, however, liked us and wants to game with us again. :
Eonwe Valar: Thus ends my report.
VardaValar1: Her friend joined our friend channel and is a fellow
Tolkien fan, since 6 years old. : )
Eonwe Valar: Ah, an addendum: the friend of Tira's was named GitM. Just
found my note.
VardaValar1: Thanks, Eonwe. : )
Eonwe Valar: MP
VardaValar1: Uldaman server Horde group had their Wednesday night
get-together, as well as playing during the week more now.
VardaValar1: Besides some soloing for higher level characters while
waiting for the group,
VardaValar1: we joined up as blood elves. : )
Shaggyjoe has entered the room.
VardaValar1: All of us were in Ghostlands with Blood Elves, so it was
VardaValar1: Aiya Gelmir!
VardaValar1: Beorn and Varda ran Ghostlands, locating a husband and
wife team who were also interested in Tolkien.
VardaValar1: Beorn spotted the Vlmo name which led to much chatting.
They came into our friend channel and Vlmo is interested in joining us.
VardaValar1: Sauron also came in and ran with Varda's Tinta in yet more
Blood Elves in Ghostlands. : )
VardaValar1: Orodreth says he found some others in Eve who are also
Orodreth V: That I did.
Orodreth V: One's actually talked about membership
Orodreth V: The other's are just at the "that's pretty nifty" stage.
VardaValar1: In WoW Euro, Fin says there were no group quests to report.
VardaValar1: Any further gaming news or other business?
Orodreth V: I'm filthy rich again in Eve,
so if you want a two week trial and the money to mess around with what
your skills will get you by then, now's the time before I blow it all
on excessivly over-expensive ships and modules..
VardaValar1: Thanks Orodreth! You heard him, folks!
ArPharazonV: finished questing in Netherstorm today, got started on the
last zone in Outland called Shadowmoon Valley
Orodreth V: And I'm looking at a new domination gyrostabilizer, so... :D
VardaValar1: If we're doing individuals, I'd like to do a report for
SauronV : )
ArPharazonV: already started a questline that's going to lead me to
Teron Gorefiend himself, so good times to remember Warcraft 2 and 3 :-)
VardaValar1: In our Lothar Valar Guild, he is the first to hit 70
VardaValar1: He also has his ebon flying mount.
GwaihirValar: Phara, that quest ends up being really cool... at the end
anyways. I loved the ending to that
VardaValar1: In case you're wondering, he's a demonology spec'd warlock.
VardaValar1: He is looking for more high levels, at least 3 or 4,
preferably from the guild, to game with, and is losing Beorn's high
level gamer for this month.
VardaValar1: Let's level up and get with him. : )
MJKeenan1234: If you want to try out WoW on a pvp server let me know, I
play on frostmane with some
old friends from EQ, and a few friends I live near out side of the
game. If you do, let me know on aim before hand as I dont play much atm
VardaValar1: Thanks - what name?
MJKeenan1234: Nikandros as my mage, Antiochus as my warrior alt.
VardaValar1: Thank you : )
GwaihirValar: I'm on Shattered Hand
myself, and I'm always glad ofr company... Eleshakai is my primary
character's name, although I am also often seen on Therana
GwaihirValar: Although for the next week or so I'll be unble to play
VardaValar1: Guys in America, please don't forget to make at least a
chat guy on Lothar Alliance and Uldaman Horde. We'd love to hear from
GwaihirValar: if at all
VardaValar1: We'll be around more than a week. ; )
Orodreth V: Remember, in Eve, you're all on the same server. None of
this mantianing 5 characters nonsence.
VardaValar1: Thanks, Gwaihir.
MJKeenan1234: I have one or two characters on Lothar I think, but no
one on Uldaman.
VardaValar1: Our Valar channel is on both. Type /join Valar
ArPharazonV: all on the same server?
ArPharazonV: doesn't that get awfully crowded?
Oessala: hold on
Shaggyjoe: The Teron Gorefiend quest line was fun.
Shaggyjoe: So was the one where you watch Gul'dan use the ciper of
Shaggyjoe: I'm pretty impressed with the x-pac.
Shaggyjoe: hello, by the way.
VardaValar1: Hello : )
ArPharazonV: also on the beginning of that questline, but not there
yet... I simply grabbed every quest in Wildhammer and just do
whatever's on top of the list in my log :-)
VardaValar1: I like to see which quests are in the same area, not
always at the top of the log.
Eonwe Valar: Don't spoil that one for me.
Shaggyjoe: Working towards Mount Hyjal attunement is insane.
GwaihirValar: Make sure to do that quest line, and the one that asks
you to go look at the Hand of Guldan... those two are really really
neat questlines. I won't give any actual details about them on the
GwaihirValar: Shaggy, its really not that tough
Shaggyjoe: No, not tough, but involving, and long.
Shaggyjoe: It's a blast.
GwaihirValar: It SOUNDS really horrendous on paper... but in the ned...
its all things you'd be doing anyways
GwaihirValar: The only part that phases me is getting revered with
Lower City... I really don't like Shadow Labyrinths.
ArPharazonV: I did that for Netherstorm, Varda, but it seems all the
quests for Wildhammer Stronghold are in more or less the same area, and
yet all in different areas ;-)
Shaggyjoe: I know a lot of more casual gammers are finding it way to
indepth for end game gear, but then again, thats what we've been asking
for since the beginning.
ArPharazonV: went to my second Shadowlab today, Gwai, already halfway
from honored to revered
ArPharazonV: should be revered in 2-3 runs
GwaihirValar: Ya, but thats successful runs... and that instance is so
annoying... sigh... 2-3 hour runs if things don't go perfectly.
ArPharazonV: I also got revered with Cenarion Expedition this week and
got my first Heroic key...
GwaihirValar: But anyways... its nearing the end of my time on this
computer... (already costing me upwards of 16 dollars), so I'd best say
my farewells before I'm over... :-)
ArPharazonV: allright, Namarie, Gwaihir! Have fun ;-)
VardaValar1: Thank you for being with us!
GwaihirValar: Always a pleasure, my friends :-)
VardaValar1: Enjoy your flight and meeting up with Gilraen at the end.
Shaggyjoe: Yeah its quick to do that, All I have to do myself to get
attuned at this point is Get the Vials of etnerity from Lady Vashj and
Eonwe Valar: Take care Gwaihir.
Shaggyjoe: See ya later bud!
ArPharazonV: ...that does require you to complete serpentshrine and
tempest keep, which also have long long attunements.... you done with
Shaggyjoe: Attunement to tempest keep was easy lol
Shaggyjoe: We arent into Serpentshrine yet.
GwaihirValar: Farewell, folks!
GwaihirValar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: got attuned to Karazhan now, 3 bosses down.... in a good
and friendly group for Gruul's lair, though no bosses down yet...
heroic key for steamvaults, and working on the other 3... it'll take a
while, but I'm slowly getting there
Shaggyjoe: Doing Gruul's Lair tonight and then finishing up Kara.
ArPharazonV: you're way ahead of us then :-)
Shaggyjoe: Been busting my butt to get my stuff taken care of ><
Shaggyjoe: Check this out..
Eonwe Valar: Ready to move on from WoW? :}
Oessala: Oh, Ar: Not too crowded when there are 5000+ systems.
Oessala: the hubs can get a little crowded, but only crazies go there
ArPharazonV: hah, still reading that D&D lotr thingy... "Horn of Gondor: Blow this horn in a time
of need and allies will arrive in time to give you a proper burial."
so true ;-)
ArPharazonV: "Sting: An elven dagger
which glows in the dark whenever Orcs are near, thus allowing them to
find you more easily."
ArPharazonV: allright, enough spoilers :-)
VardaValar1: You guys seem to have hit "never" rather quickly.
VardaValar1: Anyone with a topic please let me know. : )
VardaValar1: Currently, we have "magic in Tolkien's world"
VardaValar1: Some folks say there's really not any "magic" in
VardaValar1: It is a fantasy, so do any of you care to differ with that
VardaValar1: Or agree with it?
ArPharazonV: it depends... what do you call magic?
VardaValar1: Or forget this and go do something else? : )
VardaValar1: What is magic in fantasy?
VardaValar1: Why call this a fantasy instead of science fiction?
MJKeenan1234: Magic could be considered a supernatural force. If that
was the case then yes
Eonwe Valar: Well, magic, as it is typically understood, is wielded by
beings with spiritual power of their own.
ArPharazonV: there doesn't seem to be any mana-like energy in Tolkien's
world that people can tap out of, that's for sure
VardaValar1: So what do we call those gates of Thranduil's?
MJKeenan1234: if by magic you mean a robed guy chanting arcane words to
make fire shoot from his hands or something like that then maybe not.
ArPharazonV: illusions? control of nature?
Eonwe Valar: Those moretals who are described as being sorcerers are in
the service of the Dark Lord.
Eonwe Valar: *mortals
ArPharazonV: what about Gandalf and his blue-green flame that could set
things on fire during horrible weather?
VardaValar1: What are the conjurors and hedge wizards Gandalf comments
on? Possibly pure prestidigitation?
ArPharazonV: is that magic?
Eonwe Valar: Gandalf is by nature a Maia.
Eonwe Valar: That's exorcising his native spiritual power.
VardaValar1: What about those swords that glow around Orcs?
Eonwe Valar: *exercising, pardon.
TwoSurlyDwarves: dont forget Beorn
VardaValar1: How about Turin's sword that talked to him?
VardaValar1: Beorn. Of course turning into a bear is normal.
ArPharazonV: what about Orthanc and its unscratchable walls, so to
MJKeenan1234: I would imagine conjurors and hedge wizards to be akin to
fortune tellers today, tarot card readers and people who claim to know
the future based on signs and portents from animal organs or horoscopes
VardaValar1: Mirror of Galadriel?
MJKeenan1234: very good craftsmanship Phara
Eonwe Valar: Well, as is shown by the Ring, the Palantiri, the
VardaValar1: Phial of Galadriel?
VardaValar1: Watchers at the Gates?
VardaValar1: Barrow Wights?
Eonwe Valar: When you create something you put something of yourself
into it. For Anglachel, Eol's malice was fed into it.
Eonwe Valar: Melian recognized this.
VardaValar1: Girdle of Melian?
ArPharazonV: Bombadil and his words?
ArPharazonV: his song, yes
ArPharazonV: Luthien and her cloak that could cast things to sleep?
TwoSurlyDwarves: I would say that magic in Middle Earth is of the
innate variety, rather than the boom! fireball! kind - its there, but
its part of the nature of a thing, rather than something that the thing
MJKeenan1234: As I see it, if there is "Real magic" in Middle Earth, it
is not like the high fantasy magic of say WoW, or D&D, or Everquest
even. The concept of magic as a force one can just tap into with
learning or some such
ArPharazonV: Luthien making her hair grow longer?
TwoSurlyDwarves: innate, not arcane, phar
VardaValar1: Gandalf did light at flying nazgul forcing them away from
their attack on Faramir and his men.
TwoSurlyDwarves: maia are special cases, I would say
VardaValar1: Song might be a way of tapping in.
MJKeenan1234: but a Maiar is akin to an Angel or similar cosmological
VardaValar1: Finrod and Sauron's song war?
MJKeenan1234: same with elves really
TwoSurlyDwarves: thats the innate power of song
TwoSurlyDwarves: classic mythological concept
VardaValar1: Song creating the world?
ArPharazonV: Finrod disguised himself and his company as Orcs... how?
TwoSurlyDwarves: ie, the sirens, etc
VardaValar1: Luthien looked like Thuringwethil using her skin
MJKeenan1234: I dont think, when Tolkien created Middle Earth it was
supposed to be this big world like you would find in the fantasy novels
you pick up at Borders
ArPharazonV: I doubt Finrod would resort to putting on orc-skin ;-)
VardaValar1: Song seems to be a tap.
TwoSurlyDwarves: he wrote it as mythology, not fantasy
MJKeenan1234: it was supposed to be like a post neolithic creation myth
ArPharazonV: and I also doubt that mere armor would keep them covered
for so long, although it worked for Frodo and Sam
TwoSurlyDwarves: so the "gaming conventions" and rules do not apply
VardaValar1: When it's a story, it's grouped under fantasy, not
mainstream or science fiction.
MJKeenan1234: and an almost Homeric story on how a civilization should
ArPharazonV: there have been multiple cases of what seems to be
necromancy and shape-shifting
ArPharazonV: mostly in the hands of evil, sure, but still
VardaValar1: It's not a non-fiction thing on how we should set up a
VardaValar1: Are we needing another classification for fiction? : )
FinduilasV has left the room.
TwoSurlyDwarves: you really cant classify tolkien's work by comparing
it modern fantasy
MJKeenan1234: I understand that, and it was not implied it was, but he
set up a world along those lines, didnt he even borrow from Norse
Mythology among others when setting it up?
VardaValar1: Tolkien's work started much of modern fantasy.
ArPharazonV: to be honest, modern fantasy does seem to be based on
ArPharazonV: aye, Varda
TwoSurlyDwarves: yes, but he wasnt going for that
VardaValar1: Most fantasy borrows from mythology
TwoSurlyDwarves: he was specifically writing mythology
TwoSurlyDwarves: which is a different beast altogether
VardaValar1: He wanted a mythology for England, aye.
MJKeenan1234: exactly, you cannot lump it together with the fantasy of
today, which is now cliche with Tolkien-esque heroes and simple plot
lines meant to make money
VardaValar1: But it is not a mythology, as it is only from one man.
TwoSurlyDwarves: thats why he built the framework of multiple "authors"
TwoSurlyDwarves: because he was emulating myth
ArPharazonV: what's the difference between artificial mythology and a
general definition of fantasy, one could ask
VardaValar1: Emulating myth but it's not really myth.
FinduilasV has entered the room.
TwoSurlyDwarves: modern fantasy tends to follow a strict set of rules
for how the world works
VardaValar1: No fantasy works without a set of rules.
TwoSurlyDwarves: myth is more instinctive and basic in its setup
Oessala: I liked the comment of innate vs arcane.
MJKeenan1234: well Phara I would say that fantasy of today is placed in
a first person here and now sort of sense, where as artificial
mythology takes an almost hind sight view on the events
Oessala: It's not magic, it's an ability.
TwoSurlyDwarves: read the prose edda, for example, bits of it
contradict other bits, and there seems to be no ruleset for how things
happen, they just "do"
TwoSurlyDwarves: how does loki turn himself into a mare? same way beorn
becomes a bear
TwoSurlyDwarves: he just does
VardaValar1: Real myth contradicts due to being from many sources.
Tolkien rigged his with versions as well as having actual versions.
TwoSurlyDwarves: no spell, no "read page 42 of my spellbook while
standing on three toes"
VardaValar1: Myth also gives rules at times. Need a bear skin or swan
skin to change. If someone grabs it, you can't do it.
TwoSurlyDwarves: just like tolkien has rules sometimes in his work
VardaValar1: So are you guys trying to define magic in such a way that
it is not in Tolkien?
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MJKeenan1234: A big thing I think that seperates Tolkien from other
mythology is that he has a huge consistant cosmology set way in advance
with an order that I personally havent seen in other mythology.
ArPharazonV: if you make it the innate/arcane comparison you can get
away with a lot of things that you would just call "magic" otherwise
TwoSurlyDwarves: he didnt start with it
MJKeenan1234: well, I think what we are arguing about is, "What is
magic" not "this is magic, its clearly not Tolkien"
TwoSurlyDwarves: and its certainly not consistent
MJKeenan1234: well, you have maia then vala then eru
TwoSurlyDwarves: some of his writings, for example say the world was
always round, while some say it started off flat
MJKeenan1234: three distinct levels
VardaValar1: The original question is "is there magic in Tolkien's
world", so now we are attempting to define magic.
ArPharazonV: are we talking arcane magic or innate magic?
MJKeenan1234: errr I am thinking of a different word, let me find what
VardaValar1: I am not interested in my own opinion but Webter's has a
definition. We use dictionaries to make speech like this possible.
TwoSurlyDwarves: if you want to know if there is magic in middle earth,
read what galadriel said to samwise
VardaValar1: Magic: 1a: the use of means (as charms or spells) believed
to have supernatural power over natural forces.
VardaValar1: I remember ;-)
VardaValar1: 1b: magic rites or incantations
VardaValar1: Feel free to quote it, and remember she's not the only one
with an opinion in Middle-earth.
VardaValar1: Hers is good though!
FinduilasV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: 2a: an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a
TwoSurlyDwarves: it reflects what tolkien himself said in his letters
VardaValar1: 2b: something that seems to cast a spell: enchantment
VardaValar1: Aye, and you can quote that too!
ArPharazonV: "seemingly" is a nice term here
VardaValar1: 3: the art of producing illusions by sleight of hand
VardaValar1: Done with Webster's. : )_
ArPharazonV: it could mean that there's magic if it seems like magic
but isn't actually supernatural
VardaValar1: These are things referred to as "magic".
MJKeenan1234: Still Varda, the word magic is somewhat ambiguous. It can
mean something different to different people. While that gives a clear
view as to what magic is, what you believe to be magic may still
differ, even along those lines
MJKeenan1234: to others
MJKeenan1234: so we need a consensus on what we view magic as,
otherwise I may very well decide magic to be sleight of hand and be
just as right as you, who may view it as "magic rites or incantations"
VardaValar1: Aye. How about out of the ordinary way of handling things?
VardaValar1: Ok, so this is a pointless discussion as no one can say if
Thranduil's gates are or are not magical.
MJKeenan1234: unless we all mutually agree to use one view on what
VardaValar1: Does anyone consider Sting's glow as non-magical?
FinduilasV: not me anyway '-)
TwoSurlyDwarves: we can also use the classic Crowley definition of it:
the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with the
will, theoretically possible to cause in any object any change of which
that object is capable by nature
VardaValar1: Science could be called magic then.
ArPharazonV: "any change of which that object is capable by nature"?
that doesn't sound very supernatural, anyway
TwoSurlyDwarves: that assumes there is a difference between natural and
ArPharazonV: what is supernatural, anyway?
VardaValar1: Did you ever read "Supernature"?
ArPharazonV: or have we seen enough definitions already?
FinduilasV: Supernatural is anyhthing that goes beyojnd our natural
TwoSurlyDwarves: its a pretty ambiguous term for a lot of things
FinduilasV: super - more than, beyond
TwoSurlyDwarves: because the definition of what is natural needs to be
considered as well
VardaValar1: Ok, let's get back on track.
TwoSurlyDwarves: and thats where we go off topic - lol
VardaValar1: By all these definitions you guys like, is Sting's glowing
around orcs magical or not magical?
VardaValar1: Maybe it is science fiction and has a special sensor and
TwoSurlyDwarves: definitely magical, by several definitions
ArPharazonV: depends if the material itself is innately capable of
glow, but I'd fail to see how any material would act upon the
approximity of a certain race of creatures by itself
ArPharazonV: so it probably is magical :-)
MJKeenan1234: it depends, I would consider it so, but then again, it
could be made out of a substance that some how reacts to orcs, ala glow
in the dark ink or invisible ink. To someone not familiar with the
substances, those would be magical
TwoSurlyDwarves: I would say that the magic was in the ability of the
smith to impart that ability to his creation
TwoSurlyDwarves: the classic mytholigical concept "by the virtue of the
VardaValar1: Blacksmiths in old times were considered as users of
magic, barely tolerated.
MJKeenan1234: possibly, or knowledge in materials and their properties
and how to manipulate them
TwoSurlyDwarves: which in many early cultures was considered magic
MJKeenan1234: we cannot be 100% sure if there was some force imbued by
the smith that made it that way, or if he just manipulated the
materials and that effect is a byproduct of the materials and forging
MJKeenan1234: so I guess it would be safe to assume, due to lack of
knowledge, that it is in fact some how magical, as humans tend to do
that with things it is impossible to understand
MJKeenan1234: its either magical or divine
TwoSurlyDwarves: and in many views, magic *is* divine
TwoSurlyDwarves: or at least linked
MJKeenan1234: sorry, I should have phrased that better, they may or may
not be mutually exclusive
ArPharazonV: which brings us back to the aforementioned scene in Lorien
between Galadiel and Sam... I don't recall it in detail, but I recall
that Sam didn't understand something and thought it magic, while
Galadiel explained it was not :-)
VardaValar1: Galadriel found Sam's idea of magic confusing, as she
didn't think what she did and what Sauron did could both be lumped
under the same thing.
MJKeenan1234: well its safe to assume there is in fact magic, after
all, Hobbits are deft at apply sleight of hand type tricks, and that is
a form of magic after all :-)
VardaValar1: : )
VardaValar1: And on that note,
VardaValar1: *bangs gavel*
VardaValar1: Free time : )
ArPharazonV: I've still got a piece of semi-fanfiction
in my head that's basically a seperate story in a different part of the
world, but is based on some past events of the Silmarillion... and this
discussion has been quite helpful with that
VardaValar1: Glad we could help : )
ArPharazonV: because it's quite magic-dependent, and I was wracking my
brains on how I could introduce that in a non-magical world :-)
ArPharazonV: but I do think that with the results of this the task will
be a bit easier ;-)
VardaValar1: Yay : )
FinduilasV: Good good :-)
FinduilasV: I have been thinking about a short story of someone living /
working in Lond Daer either at the beginning when it starts being used
as woodworking and shipbuilding port or towards the end and decline
ArPharazonV: it's quite long, though, and I don't feel like delivering
you the earlier bits without finishing the story and having the
opportunity to go back and change stuff... so it might be a while
before you see it, if ever
ArPharazonV: but hey, it's in the making!
VardaValar1: Make a rough draft all the way through.
VardaValar1: Polish it later.
FinduilasV: i ll be mulling over that for a bit yet tough, and see what
cvomes of it ;-O
VardaValar1: The Story site will still be here. : )
ArPharazonV: I kinda want to do it like Tolkien did with Lotr, start
off with something and letting it write itself, changing some major
plotpoints as we go along.... in fact, the second chapter was one of
the last he finished
ArPharazonV: so while I do have a general idea, this rough draft may
not be to my liking much :-)
VardaValar1: On to "second draft"! : )
TwoSurlyDwarves: well, I have to take off
VardaValar1: Aye, same here
TwoSurlyDwarves: always a blast hanging out with you guys
VardaValar1: Namarie all!
FinduilasV: It will work out, Phara, its what happened to my Storry ,
errand of faith
Eonwe Valar: Take care Beorn.
TwoSurlyDwarves: btw, my trivia
question on the forum is still unanswered ;-)
FinduilasV: Errand of fate
ArPharazonV: Namarie Bear-man!
TwoSurlyDwarves has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: He gave a hint, so use it :}
ArPharazonV: "When dealing with
railroading DM�s, never waste skill points on the tracking skill. If
it�s part of the plot, you�ll find it no matter what you roll. If it�s
not part of the plot, then it doesn�t exist anyway."
ArPharazonV: interesting comments with that lotr-d&d thingy
VardaValar1: As a player and sometimes DM, this is almost an
instruction manual, making it even funnier.
ArPharazonV: only game I've ever played was Menelvagor's AD&D game,
but that didn't go very far
ArPharazonV: I'd like to try again, though, I have a fabulous idea for
a half-elven multiclass druid/rogue ;-)
VardaValar1: I had to run a Ghostwalk until getting rezzed for a while,
along with another character. Very interesting. : )
VardaValar1: His sorceress did pretty well in Ghostwalk, but my hunter
not so well.
VardaValar1: I'm bugging out guys : )
FinduilasV: Namarie, ?Varda :-)
VardaValar1 has left the room.
MJKeenan1234 has left the room.
Oessala: eonwe, can I talk to you in about 3 minutes?
Eonwe Valar: Ok
Oessala has left the room.
Orodreth V has left the room.
FinduilasV: good night all :-) bed time here
ArPharazonV: good night!
FinduilasV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: It's been 3 minutes :}
ArPharazonV: well, he left the room
ArPharazonV: maybe he meant in private chat?
ArPharazonV: although that was 7 minutes later...
Eonwe Valar: I'd assume he'd have whispered me by now if that was the
ArPharazonV: maybe he got distracted, by Eve or something ;-)
ArPharazonV: tried whispering him instead?
Eonwe Valar: Should I? :}
ArPharazonV: I'm not sure, depends how urgent it is :-)
ArPharazonV: which of course you won't find out until you whisper him
Eonwe Valar: If it were urgent though, wouldn't he whisper me? :}
ArPharazonV: some people are easily distracted, as I said :-)
ArPharazonV: no offense to Orodreth, of course
ArPharazonV: I should say rather that some things are easily
distracting and make you forget for the moment that you were planning
on doing something, urgent though it may be
Eonwe Valar: I got your point :}
Shaggyjoe has left the room.
ArPharazonV: allright, I'll be saving and sending