Valar Guild

July 8, 2007 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon and Varda

Attending: (11)
    Members: Ancalagon-(V)/Sarujil, AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Elladan-(V)/Bior the Ythling, Eonwe Valar, GilraenV, Lindir-(V)/Curulinde, VardaValar1 (presiding)
    Friends: B0nedriver, SecondAgeGM, Srekal86

Meeting begins
    Ar-Pharazon is on vacation for the next 2 weeks starting next Saturday far from the internet. Ancalagon volunteered to take over his transcript duties meanwhile.
     Tolkien Site:
    Misc. games:
       D2X: Varda
       BFMe2: Eonwe
       WC3: Ar-Pharazon, Elladan
       Argent Dawn
    Second Life: Second Age Romenna: Interview with the game creators

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Sarujil has entered the room.
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Hail Arien, Ancalagon, and Ar-Pharazon
AriehnV: Aiya all :-)
VardaValar1: The A's have it : )
Sarujil: heya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
AriehnV: Hail to you
VardaValar1: Just got off LotRO where a big guild group is going strong
ArPharazonV: we can call you Ardav and you'd be one too!
VardaValar1: I doubt they are coming
VardaValar1: hehe
AriehnV: aah i never meet anybody on there
AriehnV: /
VardaValar1: Arien
VardaValar1: We have been on for hours
VardaValar1: Have you been on?
VardaValar1: I didn't see your name in the Kinship list
AriehnV: not today
AriehnV: no i havent been invited yet
VardaValar1: Irmo said you didn't ask so he didn't push
Sarujil: ive been away for over a week or id have done it :-(
AriehnV: ah hang on i am logging on
VardaValar1: I'm no longer on the LotRO comp
VardaValar1: Glad you made it back, Anc :-)
ArPharazonV: btw, this'll be my last meeting for a bit, going on vacation for 2 weeks
Sarujil: I'm still not back on LoTRO yet. And im honestly enjoying the break :-)
VardaValar1: Sounds fun :-)
AriehnV: who is on ? Irmo or Eonwe
VardaValar1: Irmo is in LotRO
VardaValar1: Eonwe's comp can't handle it very well
VardaValar1: Irmogar or Irmohir, think gar
Sarujil: huh. must be over ten years old. even this chugging laptop can handle lotro :/
VardaValar1: : :-)
VardaValar1: He's on dialup
Sarujil: oh that explains it
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Guten Tag.
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe :-)
Sarujil: i'd respond in german if i could find my key for an umlaut...
GilraenV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Hiya Gilraen :-)
GilraenV: Aiya :-)
Sarujil: hey gil
Eonwe Valar: Guten Tag.
AriehnV: ah he is not in there anymore
AriehnV: at least not on irmohir
Sarujil: i can jump on real quick and grab ya'
ArPharazonV: I can greet in Dutch if you want?
VardaValar1: Irmogar
VardaValar1: Dutch is close enough :-)
Eonwe Valar: Ja, Geh fur das.
AriehnV has left the room.
B0nedriver has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Hail Bonedriver
B0nedriver: Hello everyone...a true pleasure to be here
VardaValar1: Thanks, Ancalagon
AriehnV has entered the room.
B0nedriver: Can I send a picture to people here?
VardaValar1: How about an URL?
VardaValar1: Aiyata Arien : )
B0nedriver: unfortunately no URL for the picture....our 'website' continues to be AWOL
VardaValar1: Have you found a good server yet?
B0nedriver: No....the individual working on that has also been AWOL
B0nedriver: we have an address, but its just a dead front page
B0nedriver: no pictures
B0nedriver: I'm not a website maker, so its stayed that way
VardaValar1: Is the game up?
B0nedriver: we are in pre planning
B0nedriver: the city is open to group members, but the game hasn't started
B0nedriver: I'll discuss why when you all are ready
VardaValar1: Thank you
VardaValar1: a moment please
B0nedriver: I'm a guest here, and don't wish to interfere with your normal flow
B0nedriver: actually, there is a website that has imagery from Romenna....let me pull that up
Curulinde has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Invitations sent
VardaValar1: Aiya Lindir :-)
Sarujil: hey lindir didnt i just see you on lotro? :-)
VardaValar1: He's in more than one place at once, as are most of us. : )
Curulinde: *wave*
B0nedriver: That is Miriel's take on the sim, along with some very nice screens
B0nedriver: Miriel is one of our residents...a merchant.
B0nedriver: I assume people are IMing....btw, how is LOTRO?
B0nedriver: (for roleplaying)
SecondAgeGM has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Hail SecondAge
SecondAgeGM: Hail and well met.
VardaValar1: It seems ideal for us
SecondAgeGM: Romenna you mean?
VardaValar1: Are you two in a time crunch
B0nedriver: no
SecondAgeGM: No...I am not.
SecondAgeGM: This is a very important meeting for me.
B0nedriver: We'll let you all take care of business and listen to your agenda....please tell us when you are ready
VardaValar1: The meeting transcipt is read by a lot of us who don't make it to the meeting.
VardaValar1: So you will be talking to more than you see.
B0nedriver: very well
VardaValar1: We are about to start : )

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership Report:
VardaValar1: As of this minute, we have
VardaValar1: 132 members
VardaValar1: 111 gaming members
VardaValar1: and 21 Tolkien-only members.
VardaValar1: Gaming members do both Tolkien and gaming
VardaValar1: Tolkien-only help with our online Tolkien Site
VardaValar1: Any of you have membership news?
ArPharazonV: only that i'll be going on vacation for 2 weeks
ArPharazonV: and thus will not be present at the next 2 meetings
VardaValar1: Thank you Phar. When are you leaving?
ArPharazonV: saturday
VardaValar1: So you'll still be around during this week. Your fellow gamers will be glad to see that!
VardaValar1: Have a great two weeks!
ArPharazonV: *grin* I'm sure
ArPharazonV: thanks!
VardaValar1: We'll need another transcript sender for the next two weeks.
VardaValar1: Volunteers?
Sarujil: I can do it
VardaValar1: Ancalagon, thank you!
Sarujil: my pleasure
VardaValar1: Save the transcript and email it to me, I'll take it from there. : )

VardaValar1: Web Report:
VardaValar1: Tolkien Site:
VardaValar1: Articles:
VardaValar1: Arveleg-(V) sent in articles on Azaghal:
VardaValar1: Dain I
VardaValar1: Articles updated this week were:
VardaValar1: Origin of Orcs:
VardaValar1: Thorin's Company:
VardaValar1: Tolkien Site Stories this week:
VardaValar1: from Jay of Lasgalen:
VardaValar1: The Best Begetting Day Ever:
VardaValar1: Working on the backlog for Branwyn-(TV)'s stories we have two this week:
VardaValar1: The Eyes of the White Tower
VardaValar1: When the Days are Warm
Srekal86 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Menelvagor should now have his password to work on the Humor site
VardaValar1: Aiya Srekal : )
Srekal86: 'lo
VardaValar1: Just missed the entire Tolkien Site update, get to look at the News page. ; )
VardaValar1: Any further Web News?

VardaValar1: On to the Gaming Report:
VardaValar1: Eonwe has done his yearly State of Valar Gaming Report
VardaValar1: from what you folks have sent in.
VardaValar1: Please be sure to keep the site updated.
VardaValar1: Eonwe, would you like to comment?
Eonwe Valar: Sure.
Eonwe Valar: What you see there is first our "Gaming stats" from last year, and then our stats starting out this year.
Eonwe Valar: We have 111 or so members, and only about 30 are accounted for, so the rest of you need to get your info in :}
VardaValar1: Throws the statistics badly off, heh.
Eonwe Valar: You can update your gaming information throughout the year, and I hope you do.
Eonwe Valar: I make this annual gaming info-wipe so that we have the most up-to-date gaming info, and so that you all can find someone who is as certain as possible to play the same games you do.
Eonwe Valar: You do want to game with other Valar GUild members, right? :}
VardaValar1: *some are doing so as we speak*
Eonwe Valar: I'm done.
VardaValar1: Thank you, Eonwe : )
VardaValar1: That was a lot of work, a lot of programming, and collecting of info.
VardaValar1: You are appreciated!
Eonwe Valar: *bow*
VardaValar1: Which games has this group played this week that were not WoW or LotRO? : )
VardaValar1: Diablo 2 Expansion here.
VardaValar1: *pokes Phar* I know you played other things. : )
Eonwe Valar: I played some BFME2. Always fun to plays as the Elves, Especially when I get Noldor :}
Sarujil: been playing some old console games but thats it this week :-)
ArPharazonV: hm? oh, right
ArPharazonV: more Warcraft 3!
VardaValar1: Northrend I assume? : )
ArPharazonV: yepper
ArPharazonV: and didn't get disconnected once!
VardaValar1: Impressive : )
ArPharazonV: well, that's the benefit of playing on Northrend for me
ArPharazonV: I can join the american server but it disconnects me
VardaValar1: Seems to happen to you consistently
VardaValar1: Did anyone else play outside the two main games?
VardaValar1: Either you're all afk or it's been an unusually quiet week!
VardaValar1: WoW Report: Argent Dawn server
VardaValar1: Arien, go ahead
AriehnV: There is not much to report I fear this week , since there was no groping as such , but there is a bit of good news. Menelvagor maxed his shammy out - Anarore has reached 70. :-D
ArPharazonV: congratulations to him!
VardaValar1: yay!
ArPharazonV: or her! or whatever
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: That is great to hear : )
AriehnV: aye :-) that is my end of the report but its a good news
VardaValar1: Thank you Arien
VardaValar1: You say you saw Valandil on?
AriehnV: i did yes
VardaValar1: Thanks. That helps us know he's still active. : )
VardaValar1: WoW Uldaman server:
AriehnV: he is :-) and advancingf as well - now i shut up
VardaValar1: The Wednesday group appears to have come in at scattered times
VardaValar1: Oh good, Arien!
VardaValar1: I mean that he's advancing. About to get in trouble here.
VardaValar1: but Fangorn and I came in and did Ghostlands quests together
VardaValar1: We managed to neatly miss both Elwing and Vaire
VardaValar1: We jumped over to the Lothar server after those quests
VardaValar1: As it was July 4th
VardaValar1: We met up with Eonwe and Turin
VardaValar1: and much questing and fireworks
VardaValar1: Also Eowyn joined up with Fangorn and myself for questing
VardaValar1: Much drinking causes the Booty Bay dock to become tipsy we learned
VardaValar1: We helped the Booty Bay firework people shoot off masses of fireworks, plus various magical special effects
VardaValar1: Eonwe, do you have a WoW Lothar report?
Eonwe Valar: I have some, aye.
Eonwe Valar: I was on earlier in the day, and decided to clear a quest out of my quest log that's been sitting there for a while while I went off to Outland.
Eonwe Valar: I journeyed to the Sunken Temple in the Swamp of Sorrows to defeat the Avatar of Kakkar.
Eonwe Valar: *Hakkar
Eonwe Valar: The troll guardians, both living and dead, were no match for me, falling at my feet quickly.
VardaValar1: You puny 70 you.
Eonwe Valar: The dragons guarding Hakkar's area were also of no consequence.
Eonwe Valar: When I came to his area, I eliminated his pets, doused the flames with their blood, and fought him, with about 10 of his pets, and killed them all.
VardaValar1: Remind me not to upset you.
Eonwe Valar: Having dealt with him thus, I encased his essence in an egg and took it to a Troll in Tanaris, who wanted it for some reason.
ArPharazonV: reminds me of a movie of a paladin killing 90% of Gnomeregan in 1 pull...
ArPharazonV: if you want the link
VardaValar1: Now that's got to be a sight!
Eonwe Valar: That does it for my report.
VardaValar1: Thank you, Paladin Eonwe : )
Eonwe Valar: *bow*\
VardaValar1: LotRO had about 18 people, in several groups.
VardaValar1: Currently we can only cram 6 in a group, but a raid can now go as high as 24.
VardaValar1: and as of today, we have added Arien to the kinship
VardaValar1: Welcome in, good buddy. : )
VardaValar1: she just logged over there to check on her crafting : )
VardaValar1: Today we have a treat for you
VardaValar1: Two gentlemen have visited with us today to tell us of their new game. Bonedriver, would you like to begin?
B0nedriver: Sure, I'll start
B0nedriver: first my 'handle' is not rude...
ArPharazonV: ....well that's a relief!
B0nedriver: so if you wonder what it means...its professional
B0nedriver: that being said, my companion and I have been working the last 8 months on a Second Life 'build'
B0nedriver: called Romenna
B0nedriver: its a roleplaying project
B0nedriver: Second Life is a 'free' 'game' that is essentially a 3D chatroom with the ability to create and script (program) objects
B0nedriver: I'll throw the URL up to Miriel's blog entry on us again, for those who missed it
VardaValar1: (Their Miriel, not ours)
B0nedriver: A picture is worth 1000 words
B0nedriver: I'll summarize
B0nedriver: we intend to create the Numenorean citadel of Romenna near the end of the Second Age, just as Gimilzor is persecuting the Faithful
B0nedriver: since SL combat isn't, lets say, as seamless as WoW, the emphasis isn't fighting
ArPharazonV: grandpa!
B0nedriver: although that will be there
B0nedriver: hehe
B0nedriver: in fact, the primary reason we've come here is not only to find kindred spirits
B0nedriver: but we are looking for true Tolkien diehards who might wish to take on key roles
B0nedriver: we intend this to be a long term thing...if it takes off..year
B0nedriver: years
B0nedriver: and we intend to continue to upgrade and expand as Second Life's technology increases
VardaValar1: But we would have to drop the personas we've been developing over the past nine years?
B0nedriver: barring that, startup on the next platrom
B0nedriver: platform
SecondAgeGM: What personas are you referring to? You mean the Ainur?
B0nedriver: (I actually don't understand that question) if your character is in the Second Age timeline wise, upon Numenor or could get there, no
VardaValar1: I'm Varda : )
ArPharazonV: would that be much of a problem, Varda? if you look at the RP and everyone's characters in LotRO... we know how to act as another personality :-)
VardaValar1: I agree, Phar. We'll do fine. : )
B0nedriver: now, there is an allied group here
SecondAgeGM: InWell, ostensibly the Ainur play a role in the the end as Tolkien wrote it.
B0nedriver: although they dont' yet have a simulator
B0nedriver: who are attempting to create Valinor
SecondAgeGM: But introducing someone of that power level intothe setting would be catastrophically unbalancing.
B0nedriver: (an itty bitty part of it)
VardaValar1: Phar is referring to our text rp, where we play much less powerful characters. Just a young silvan elf there.
B0nedriver: so, if you'd rather cleave to the elvish persuasion, you would like it
B0nedriver: (I'm pretty sure they need a Varda there ;-)
SecondAgeGM: That is a much more appropriate powerlevl.
B0nedriver: our goal is to get elven sims online too
ArPharazonV: according to wiki (sorry, I know I should be using books) Pharazon was 59 years old when his grandfather died...
VardaValar1: The Elves stopped visiting Numenor. How would they be involved?
ArPharazonV: so I could be in character ;-)
B0nedriver: there are elves in second life, in fact a 'whole' continent of them
SecondAgeGM: The Grey Havens and the Kingdom of Gil-Galad.
B0nedriver: Ar....we actually NEED ArPharazon
ArPharazonV: I am interested in this project, but with my new study coming up in a few months, I won't have a lot of time for it... but I'll see about getting in, in character or not :-)
SecondAgeGM: The role pf Pharazon as a young man has been assumed unfortunately.
ArPharazonV: hmm...
ArPharazonV: well, I'll figure something out
B0nedriver: anyway, our scenario is roleplay intensive
SecondAgeGM: But few other roles have been taken yet...among the established characters.
B0nedriver: take on a role, live a life
B0nedriver: probably boring parts, but the plot and social interaction should be very good
B0nedriver: we are looking for interest and people who'd like to come take a look.
VardaValar1: How is the plot looking right now?
SecondAgeGM: If you are interested in a synopsis, I have one and can send it.
B0nedriver: the plot depends on good 'cast' members
VardaValar1: ok, you can email it to me and I'll put it on the News.
SecondAgeGM: It is a little over 800 words long
VardaValar1: as a link : )
VardaValar1: We already have a link to info from the last letters from Bonedriver
SecondAgeGM: (the paragraphs are too long to send in chat)
VardaValar1: Email.
SecondAgeGM: Your e-mail address?
VardaValar1: varda.elentari (AT)
VardaValar1: Eonwe also put up a link to the previous info from the Games page.
B0nedriver: I think we can ask for some questions.....
B0nedriver: too much talking
B0nedriver: from me
B0nedriver: :-)
VardaValar1: How do we start, if we want to go there right now?
B0nedriver: First a 'disclaimer'
B0nedriver: Second Life is free, loads about 30 Meg of data onto your computer
B0nedriver: everything streams beyond that
SecondAgeGM: The first stepis to download Second Life. It will require some sort of credit verification, but will not charge you. Basic membership is free.
B0nedriver: even though the graphics may appear 'clunky' compared to newer games
B0nedriver: its deceiving...most of those games lives on your computer
SecondAgeGM: Buysing things to equuip your avatar can cost money, about $400 Lindens to the $ US.
SecondAgeGM: There are free things that can make your avatar presentable though, so not to worry about that yet.
VardaValar1: Real life money?
SecondAgeGM: I actually think the graphics are better than LOTRO. Its more interactive in any case.
VardaValar1: Isn't gaming for equipment a lot of what gaming is for?
SecondAgeGM: Yes. RL Money.
B0nedriver: let me speak on this
B0nedriver: SL is free, but doing anything in it costs money
SecondAgeGM: Yu can make thinsg for free in SL immediately. Have to knowhowthough. B1B will talk to hold down the confusion fornow.
B0nedriver: instead of a $15 US a month fee
B0nedriver: you pay micropayiments
B0nedriver: for our project, to see Romenna, there will be no charge
B0nedriver: so coming and going here is free....just need to load the thing up
B0nedriver: after that one can figure out what they want individually
B0nedriver: everything in SL is created by the residents
B0nedriver: the players
B0nedriver: there is very, very little 'content' other than that
B0nedriver: and frankly most of it is rubbish
B0nedriver: but, the tools are there
B0nedriver: and that is what we've done, is use those tools to create something good
B0nedriver: I would say a casual user might spend $5 US a month in the game, buying clothes or a skin texture for one's avatar
B0nedriver: other than that, it plays a lot like a typical online game
B0nedriver: As I mentioned before, even the combat system is built by players
VardaValar1: Typical game fights monsters, does quests, we earn equipment and "money" there. Not sure how it is like that?
B0nedriver: (pauses to take a breath, waits for questions)
ArPharazonV: so you can easily play without spending real life money, except for the lack of avatar-cosmetics?
B0nedriver: yes for Ar Pharazon
B0nedriver: as far as Varda's question, its not like a typical game
B0nedriver: there are some clumsy quest places in second life
B0nedriver: but its really rough compared to developed games and not the real strenght
B0nedriver: second life's strenghts are its ability to create anything from scratch for anyone
B0nedriver: and the expressiveness of the avatars compared to other games
B0nedriver: its a social environment, which means the best RP
ArPharazonV: is there a way of payment without looking to international creditcards, if you're European?
B0nedriver: PayPal for Linden Labs, but once in game currency is all "Linden Dollars" or $L
B0nedriver: current exchange is about $261L to the US$
Bior the Ythling has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: PayPal is the only "outside" way of paying?
B0nedriver: I think its a major credit card or PayPal.
B0nedriver: The website is
B0nedriver: again, there is no charge for this....its free
VardaValar1: Streaming means our dial-up people will be left out, most likely?
B0nedriver: yes
B0nedriver: I was going to speak about that
B0nedriver: you must have broadband of some type
B0nedriver: either Cable Modem or DSL
B0nedriver: or fiber
B0nedriver: I've got DSL
B0nedriver: all the data in world is changable at the drop of a hat, so it has to stream
Curulinde has left the room.
B0nedriver: additionally, you have to have Windows XP to run the program
B0nedriver: as a minimum
B0nedriver: more questions?
SecondAgeGM: nyone still there?
VardaValar1: You mentioned that we might use it as a chat program?
SecondAgeGM: *Anyone
SecondAgeGM: I can be used like AIM.
SecondAgeGM: Save that you have the full expressiveness of a lifelike avatar.
VardaValar1: Can this be done on dial-up, if it isn't gaming?
VardaValar1: just chat?
SecondAgeGM: emails can be sent from within SL to outside of SL. There is fairconnnectivity to the WWW.
ArPharazonV: just emails, no chat?
VardaValar1: I mean like doing this meeting chat right now.
B0nedriver: but to access the visual 3D portion, the sim, you must have broadband
SecondAgeGM: I belive that the chat feature works only in SL...the IM feature willtransmit messages outside of SLif the recipient's abatar is so-enabled.
ArPharazonV: and you can only chat with this visual portion?
ArPharazonV: hmm..
SecondAgeGM: That requires checing a box in the preferences
B0nedriver: not sure
SecondAgeGM: Yes, pretty much the chat works only within SL. IM reaches out if you are not in wold when your character receives an IM.
B0nedriver: If you do wish to come take a look, it takes about 30 min to get an avatar set up
B0nedriver: and off of 'help' island
B0nedriver: leaning to walk and control things
B0nedriver: once through the initial tutorial we can teleport you in directly
VardaValar1: Does it use the W A S D keys?
VardaValar1: to move, I mean?
SecondAgeGM: It uses the arrow keys but I believe the wasd keys can be enabled.
SecondAgeGM: Wouldn't that interfere with chat and texting?
VardaValar1: Not in WoW or LotRO
B0nedriver: Yes
B0nedriver: WASD
B0nedriver: you left click the mouse, then move by the WASD keys
VardaValar1: ah cool
B0nedriver: but the User Interface is tricky..its very complex
B0nedriver: once you move beyond just walking
B0nedriver: gesturing is from a menu
B0nedriver: and it helps to have someone there to work with you
B0nedriver: (moi)
SecondAgeGM: Me as well
B0nedriver: Anyway, its a Tolkien dedicated roleplay that anyone can join once they are on the second life platorm
B0nedriver: platform
B0nedriver: we would love to host your meeting, but I understand you have limitations with some members
B0nedriver: everyone is welcome though
VardaValar1: Thank you
SecondAgeGM: Did you receive the synopsise-mail Varda?
SecondAgeGM: *synopsis
VardaValar1: Will the complicated menu be made easier later?
B0nedriver: I hope so ;-)
B0nedriver: that is the Linden Labs portion .... they are aware its a bit tricksy and have been trying to streamline it
VardaValar1: No
B0nedriver: it took me about a day or so to get comfortable with it after playing SWG
SecondAgeGM: (Transmitted to varda.elentari@gmail com at 6:51 pm
SecondAgeGM: RPG-GM
VardaValar1: There it is. : )
VardaValar1: Just came in.
B0nedriver: That's really all we have without being any more long winded than we have been.
SecondAgeGM: Hope this is of at least some interest.
VardaValar1: Yes, thank you.
VardaValar1: We appreciate your coming here and spending time with us, and your effort at making a world based on Numenor!
SecondAgeGM: It has been a pleasure.
VardaValar1: We will have a short afk then reconvene for Tolkien chat
B0nedriver: Namarie
VardaValar1: You gentleman are welcome to be here if you like.
VardaValar1: Namarie
B0nedriver: I certainly shall
SecondAgeGM: I'll stay logged inand followthe chat. Working on the plotand story right now.
VardaValar1: Back
VardaValar1: Eonwe and I are here, anyone else?
Sarujil: im here
VardaValar1: Anc, hey there : )
Sarujil: and i might actually be able to add something this time, just went back and read the sil after several years :-)
VardaValar1: oh yay!
VardaValar1: Their talking about Numenor and that time period makes me want to explore it. : )
ArPharazonV: I'm here, sorry
VardaValar1: So about this time the Elves of Gil-galad do or do not include the survivors of the Mouth of Sirion?
VardaValar1: Oh, we're glad you're here. : )
ArPharazonV: heh
Sarujil: oh .... actually im the process of rereading it. almost but not quite at akallabeth :/
VardaValar1: The second kinslaying
VardaValar1: We can all hit the indices and find things, no worries. : )
ArPharazonV: the second kinslaying was when the sons of Feanor attacked Doriath, not the Mouth of Sirion
Sarujil: oh i just got there. it does say that the survivors of the second kinslaying join with gil-galad
ArPharazonV: that was the third :-)
Sarujil: oh
VardaValar1: Third, oboy
VardaValar1: Feanorians get around
Sarujil: i went by varda's description not the number hehe
VardaValar1: Alqualonde was first
ArPharazonV: correct
VardaValar1: So aye, the ones attacked at Doriath. Then they joined up with the survivors of Gondolin
VardaValar1: and the Feanorians came after the Silmaril there.
VardaValar1: Then the survivors joined Gil-galad
Sarujil: most anyway
VardaValar1: Think I need to review this area.
VardaValar1: Some stayed?
AriehnV: I am still here
VardaValar1: Hiya Arien :-)
Sarujil: well, Elwing went to Valinor, and Elrond and Elros were taken captive by Maglor. but thats just being picky i guess :-)
VardaValar1: Okies
VardaValar1: and Elros was the first king of Numenor
VardaValar1: so this game is well after all that
VardaValar1: Thanks, Elros is the time key : )
VardaValar1: For a possibly really good help with rp on this timeline, Irmo's story of Miriel:
VardaValar1: This starts out with the young Pharazon and Miriel and goes to their deaths.
Eonwe Valar: Been a while since I read it, but if I recall, it's pretty good.
Sarujil: i like this line: "Grandmother was the oldest person in the realm by far when she died, while uncle Gimilkhâd was only 198 years old!"
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: "only"
ArPharazonV: pff, lies... I still adhere to the version where Pharazon and Miriel are actually in love, and the only problem is that they're related
VardaValar1: All this misinformation. Poor Phar
Eonwe Valar: Is that the same version where Sauron was a good and noble ambassador of the Valar, Phar? :}
VardaValar1: Phar and Sauron know perfectly well that that is true.
ArPharazonV: no, no... but I do recall a version of the legend that states what I said, and there has never been any confirmation that it wasn't so
ArPharazonV: so I prefer to be optimistic!
VardaValar1: Wonder how much confirmation it would take?
VardaValar1: *peeks down in the hole Pharazon is staying in*
ArPharazonV: well, seeing as how Tolkien isn't around to write new texts, unless there is a text that I'm unaware of...
Sarujil: i dunno, my version says you wedded her against her will :-)
ArPharazonV: *goes on a hunt for his books*
Sarujil: and seized the sceptre. seizing has a rather negative connotation :-)
VardaValar1: His have pages cut out and lines in it covered with black marker.
VardaValar1: I saw Sauron with scissors and a Sharpie. Coincidence?
Sarujil: oh i see. a choose your own adventure version of the sil :-)
VardaValar1: lol
ArPharazonV: *discards Silmarillion* *goes to hunt for UT*
Sarujil: hehe
Sarujil: I take it he didnt like what he saw in the Sil...
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: I *know* I've read it somewhere!
Eonwe Valar: Just a thought, might check the story about MIriel by Irmo that Varda linked. I suspect what Phar's looking for is in there for some reason.
ArPharazonV: I'm looking for it, Eonwe, but I'm not sure what you're referring to?
VardaValar1: Dior, Thingols's grandson, son of Beren and Luthien, received the Nauglamir in a box from a Green-elf after the death of his parents. (The second death.)
Sarujil: I am reading it now. So far the only comment by Miriel is that she decided to become Queen in order to prevent the slaughter or exile of the Elendili
Sarujil: oh and she affectionately refers to Phar as 'King Rat'
ArPharazonV: well that woman never did know what was good for her *cough*
VardaValar1: Nice name : )
Eonwe Valar: Nevermind then. I was trying to go from memory, for some reason I thought something favorable toward Pharazon had been said by Miriel in that story.
AriehnV: *grin*
VardaValar1: The Feanorians were afraid to attack Luthien, but they sure went for Dior.
ArPharazonV: anyway, not knowing them doesn't mean I don't have my reasons
ArPharazonV: and I will have no more of this slander!
Sarujil: yeah but he took a couple with him, Varda
VardaValar1: He sure did. : )
VardaValar1: Curufin and Caranthir
VardaValar1: Hey Eonwe, should I answer your forum question if they didn't do it yet? : )
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VardaValar1: Since Dior killed elves too, albeit in self-defense, is he lumped with kin-slayers? I'm thinking not
Eonwe Valar: You mean the seven sons of Fëanor?
VardaValar1: But all of those elves killing each other... All those potentially immortal people cut off.
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe.
Eonwe Valar: Ancalagon stepped up and answered it :}
VardaValar1: Way to go, Anc!
Eonwe Valar: He had to look it up, but after 5 months I think I have to cede that :}
VardaValar1: I rigged a mnemonic device to keep them straight.
VardaValar1: Two A's for Amras and Amrod.
ArPharazonV: I don't think those defending their homes in the Kinslayings were generally seen as Kinslayers
Eonwe Valar: I'm just surprised no one got it sooner.
VardaValar1: Three C's for Caranthir, Celegorm, and Curufin
Sarujil: i only had to look up four of them :-) and i knew what all of them started with!
VardaValar1: Two M's for Maedhros and Maglor.
ArPharazonV: certainly there would have been *some* Noldor casualties in Alqualonde?
Eonwe Valar: 3C2M2A? Beginning to sound like chemistry.
SecondAgeGM: The story elements that Phar is thinking of are in "Peoples of Middle Earth" p 159-161
VardaValar1: I minored in chemistry, so yes!
VardaValar1: Thanks, SecondAge!
ArPharazonV: are they now? I have that book right here... let me see
Sarujil: there were a few casualties no doubt phar, such is war. but i believe it said the teleri were pretty much overwhelmed
AriehnV: it is good to follow your discussion but i am just too sleepy to contribute , so I am relatively sensible and say Namarie for tonight!
VardaValar1: Sleep well, Arien!
ArPharazonV: Thank you, SecondAge, this is exactly what I was looking for :-)
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien.
ArPharazonV: Namarie, Arien!
VardaValar1: She has all her characters in the LotRO kinship now : )
AriehnV: mara Lome, all
SecondAgeGM: One of my desires was to explore hat relationship and the nature of Pharazon. He is going to be a compex character and I amfollowing Tolkien'sintent very closely. He begins as a Paladin...
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VardaValar1: I look forward to gaming with her another day.
ArPharazonV: yes, Ancalagon, but my point is, if there were Noldor casualties, would those who have slain them be "lumped with kin-slayers" as Varda so beautifully put it?
SecondAgeGM: This is due to the fact that his mentor wasAmandil in his youth, apparently not his father Gilikhad. But Gimilkhad and the acclaim of the poepel leter corupted him.
Sarujil: Well, I mean, if you're being attacked are you guilty if you defend yourself?
VardaValar1: Not defending themselves seems like a poor choice.
Eonwe Valar: He starts as a Paladin...and then he becomes a Deathknight, and eventually merges with Sauron to become the Dark King? Hehe, pardon, WoW reference there.
ArPharazonV: "You're clearly stronger than us, so take our ships and leave us alone"?
VardaValar1: hehe Eonwe
VardaValar1: There are some pacifists who would say that, Phar
VardaValar1: I would fire my bow until the air buzzed.
ArPharazonV: had they known the result of the battle they would face, losing their boats anyway...
Eonwe Valar: I would not lump in the defenders with the Kinslayers. They were defending themselves.
ArPharazonV: would they still have fought?
VardaValar1: Harder maybe. : )
Sarujil: The Sil states that the White Ships of the Teleri were as precious to them as the Silmarils were to Feanor. I think they would have fought, regardless
ArPharazonV: hmm...
VardaValar1: Aye, Anc
ArPharazonV: from a calculating mind that would seem folly
Eonwe Valar: Sometimes, it's not about whether you can win, but that you do try.
ArPharazonV: then again, if I had a calculating mind, would I attack Valinor?
VardaValar1: This is the precious to them.
Sarujil: to a logical mind, rather. Elves are not Vulcans :-)
VardaValar1: Sure. You had a poor data input.
ArPharazonV: True, I was told you were fake gods
VardaValar1: We never said we were gods. Eru is that.
ArPharazonV: and we were to keep away from Valinor only because you were scared that we'd find out the truth
VardaValar1: We could not hurt our brothers, fellow children of Eru, if we could get out of it.
Eonwe Valar: And the giant clouds shaped strikingly like eagles flying out of the West didn't clue you in? Heh.
ArPharazonV: cheap tricks, Eonwe!
VardaValar1: So Manwe turned it over to Eru to do as he saw fit.
VardaValar1: Little clues... ;-)
Eonwe Valar: If memory serves, it was actually Eru whom Sauron claimed was fake, a God made up by the Valar.
VardaValar1: Eru was probably more drastic than even the Valar expected.
Eonwe Valar: Harder to deny the existence of the Valar while they had a presence readily visible in Arda.
VardaValar1: ohh, think you're right, Eonwe.
ArPharazonV: it wasn't about denying their existence, but denying the power they appeared to have
VardaValar1: Melkor, now he's the one to worship. heh. Talk about choosing the wrong master.
ArPharazonV: if Eru was a fake, who was to say their powers were any more real?
VardaValar1: So Phar operated on false data, partly because he wanted to believe he could be immortal.
VardaValar1: The land itself must be making them immortal. Not that the immortals were inhabiting the land.
SecondAgeGM: There was another factor in this...
VardaValar1: Always. Fire away!
ArPharazonV: well, as I said... I'm an optimist... if a version suits me I'll believe it more eagerly :-)
Eonwe Valar: Well, Sauron was a real power, and if their history told of Sauron's repentance to Eonwë, and that Eonwë could not pardon him because they were of the same kind, it seems to indicate there is some power mightier than Sauron's.
SecondAgeGM: Men had a closely kepyt ancient tradition of their origin...
SecondAgeGM: Much more detailed than what the silmarillion mentions
Eonwe Valar: Aye, I've read that version. Quite interesting.
VardaValar1: Aye, Melkor found Man first
SecondAgeGM: It indicated that they had originally BEEN immortal...and that that immortality had been taken from them through the deception of Melkor.
SecondAgeGM: Thought they walked with Eru before that...He spoke to them in a mysterious "voice"
ArPharazonV: that would explain some craving of Men to become immortal :-)
SecondAgeGM: And that is waht they knew Him as.
SecondAgeGM: Men were made to BE Valar...according to this belief.
ArPharazonV: well, ancient traditions or not, there's one thing you have to keep in mind
SecondAgeGM: to become Valar through long tutelage and learning within the world.
VardaValar1: One story has Turin and Nienor becoming Valar.
ArPharazonV: the Akallabeth took place 3000 years after the end of the First Age, the last true appearance of the Valar
ArPharazonV: that is a long time for Men to forget, or to twist tales to their own thoughts...
SecondAgeGM: True...a very early story...and Tolekien seemd tomaintain that Turin would slay Morgoyj in the Last Battle.
SecondAgeGM: *Morgoth
VardaValar1: Bilbo, put your hand there in the dark, on that Ring that you were meant to have...
Eonwe Valar: Originally, it was Fionwë, son of Manwë, who was to slay Morgoth.
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SecondAgeGM: Absolutely true Phar. These tales were passed via oral traditions. There was trmendous room for change.
ArPharazonV: I hate to draw religion into this, but if you look at our world, it's been 2000 years since Jesus Christ, and Christianity is not what it used to be then, all divided and people no longer believing in it
ArPharazonV: I know Numenoreans lived longer, but 3000 years is plenty of time to part from old beliefs and traditions
VardaValar1: Actually, Christianity was having versions right off that the Apostles were trying to stop, but let's not go into this. : )
ArPharazonV: and from a modern viewpoint, questioning the Valar after 3000 years is not as foolish as many make it out to be
VardaValar1: With Sauron right there working on their minds, ouch.
Eonwe Valar: People have a bad habit of picking and chosing what parts of something they want to believe. Then it gets skewed from there.
ArPharazonV: aye, add Sauron as advisor...
VardaValar1: People believe what suits them, pretty much.
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, I'd love to stay here and keep going, but I must go now. Gotta make a run to the store.
VardaValar1: Namarie
ArPharazonV: Namarie
VardaValar1: Phar should probably get some sleep too, I hate to mention
Eonwe Valar: Might swing by the Forum and make an RP post when I get back.
ArPharazonV: aww, but I'm enjoying this
VardaValar1: ohh, wonderful!
VardaValar1: Me too : )
Eonwe Valar: Was hoping Menel would post something.
VardaValar1: I was hoping we could do some round-robin live posting
VardaValar1: Same here.
VardaValar1: He's been busy trying to get set up in a university, not a sure thing which one yet.
ArPharazonV: aye, I too feel uncomfortable continuing without some contribution from Estarion
Eonwe Valar: But, at the same time, I'd rather not leave the RP sitting there indefinitely waiting.
ArPharazonV: that was his name, right? ;-)
VardaValar1: Aye, to both of you
VardaValar1: Better go, Eonwe, before that grocery store closes or is taken over by Morgoth.
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, it's Wal-Mart, so the latter is more likely to happen :}
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: Another case of Dorwinion here, please?
Eonwe Valar: Assuming it hasn't already, of ocurse :}
VardaValar1: :-)
Eonwe Valar: *of course
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, Good Night, Sleep well, Take care, and Have fun :}
ArPharazonV: lips are sealed, Sauron advised me not to reveal any information on that matter
VardaValar1: You too : )
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
Eonwe Valar: In whichever order applies to your current situation :}
Sarujil: farewell, Eonwe
VardaValar1: Sauron bribed me with chicken earlier : )
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: ok, so that was Sauron-(Valar)
ArPharazonV: he wish..
VardaValar1: Melkor-(Valar) was on earlier in LotRO : )
VardaValar1: Will you be far far from comps for the next two weeks, Phar?
ArPharazonV: anyway, that page from Peoples of Middle-Earth that SecondAge referred to, I think I'll see if I can date it...
ArPharazonV: yes, I will
ArPharazonV: well, I suspect my mom might bring her laptop, but no internetz
VardaValar1: Then I hope you get to post this week on the rp
VardaValar1: You could use a break : )
ArPharazonV: I'll try
SecondAgeGM: Date it in whatway? Maybe I can help.
ArPharazonV: I might even write something while I'm away and copy that to the internetz
ArPharazonV: date it as in year of composition
SecondAgeGM: Ahhh...
VardaValar1: That would be great! But don't forget to relax too. : )
ArPharazonV: whether it is more recent than the Silmarillion-version :-)
VardaValar1: Aye, that gets tricky
VardaValar1: We had to call something canon, but the Sil still leaves so much out.
ArPharazonV: I prefer to go with more recent versions, especially as it suits me *grin*
VardaValar1: Figuring the dates really helps
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: An author can also second-guess himself to death. And he didn't have his old notes easy to read the way we do.
VardaValar1: Poor Christopher's eyes, trying to read those pencils on the back of whatever paper dad could find during a paper shortage.
ArPharazonV: "and in that case it has to be concluded that my father discarded this story of the love of Amandil's brother for Zimrahil, and of her turning away from the Elf-friends
VardaValar1: Ok so elves at the time of young Phar...
VardaValar1: Pardon, go ahead.
ArPharazonV: and glad acceptance of Pharazon, before writing the final version. But I doubt this was the case."
ArPharazonV: so even Christopher isn't sure
VardaValar1: He can't be. JRRT wasn't always sure. And he would have several versions.
SecondAgeGM: Right. CT was unsure...that gives us creative license.
ArPharazonV: it gives us freedom to believe what we want to believe
ArPharazonV: and I know what I want to believe :-)
VardaValar1: JRRT also rigged his mythology purposely like history and other myths with grey areas to play in.
SecondAgeGM: The beauty of the SA is that it is wide open to interpretation, new characters, etc...
VardaValar1: oboy Phar : )
VardaValar1: Aye, and so we have sites loaded with stories and poetry, all JRRT's fault
VardaValar1: and art of course
VardaValar1: just as mythology of other types caused.
VardaValar1: and video games...
Sarujil: and guilds who steal his names :-) all twenty bilion of 'em, per character :-)
ArPharazonV: funny you should say that, mythology...
VardaValar1: Right!
VardaValar1: And ship-builders
ArPharazonV: I'm watching Hercules: The Legendary Journeys right now
VardaValar1: Nice example. : )
ArPharazonV: and they really took the liberty of messing around with Greek mythology in this series..
VardaValar1: Mythology never ceases to be our mental playground
VardaValar1: Sometimes people take it so far that it is just unrecognizable, like D&D, which I love and play almost every Saturday.
VardaValar1: There's definitely a limit.
VardaValar1: The limit can be grey, but when it steps well over, we know it!
VardaValar1: Take it easy, and I'll see you in the email, Phar. : )
VardaValar1: Thanks for coming, SecondAge, and please feel free to return
VardaValar1: You were a special pleasure in the Tolkien chat.
VardaValar1: Namarie all!
ArPharazonV: Indeed!
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
ArPharazonV: and thanks for finding the section in HoME, I knew I wasn't crazy...
SecondAgeGM: It was my pleasure.
SecondAgeGM: If any of you wish, I would be happy tointroduce you to SL.
ArPharazonV: not today, I'm afraid, heading to bed soon
ArPharazonV: being European and all, it's 2 am here
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SecondAgeGM: I'm familiar with a lot of Tolkien's concepts, especialy where Numenor and the Second Age are concerned
SecondAgeGM: Then you definitely need to sleep :-)
ArPharazonV: I haven't read any Tolkien-literature in a while, got stuck in the index to the Lost Tales... but I'll get back to it soon :-)
Sarujil: I usually don't read through the indexes :-)
ArPharazonV: maybe I shouldn't either ;-)
Sarujil: theyre just meant to be references i think :-)
SecondAgeGM: The indices are where all the good stuff is.
SecondAgeGM: Like hyperlinks toTolkien's core ideas.
ArPharazonV: yup, definitions, etymology...
SecondAgeGM: Yep
Sarujil: Well yeah Tolkien's indices are every other authors' glossaries
SecondAgeGM: I guess I should be logging offtoo. Thank you forhaving us to visit.
Sarujil: Farewell SA
SecondAgeGM: Namarie
SecondAgeGM has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Namarie
ArPharazonV: I'll just save the transcript then, last time for now :-)
ArPharazonV: Ancalagon, next 2 weeks are in your hands!
ArPharazonV: or... claws... or wings... or whatever you dragons use
Sarujil: I can only succeed you, O master of the transcripts :-)