Sunday, August 24, 2025
5:00pm Eastern Time
Discord: Valar Guild/meeting_place
Attending: Arien, Ar-Pharazon, Eonwe, Fangorn, Pallando, Shelob, Varda (presiding)
Topic: Why are the orcs to be considered evil?
Non-flashgaming: Unnamed Chick Game.
[3:59 PM]Varda: Yep, this is meeting_place, not Harbor. : )
[4:00 PM]Varda: @Bounder @Guild-friend Valar Guild meeting time! Yay! Come say hi! Chat about gaming and Tolkien subjects!
[4:00 PM]Arien Valar: Aiya Starlady
[4:01 PM]Varda: Aiya, Steersman of the Sun!
[4:01 PM]Varda: Steerslady sounds kind of weird...
[4:01 PM]Arien Valar: Wherever it is safe there is a harbor nod
[4:01 PM]Varda: Aye to that!
[4:02 PM]Varda: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
[4:02 PM]Varda: Membership:
[4:02 PM]Varda: so, should it be steersman or steerslady? : )
[4:02 PM]Varda: In other membership news: Elwing visited Varda and Fangorn's house, playing LotRO while here, and has returned home. It was a very fun birthday visit, even though after her real birthday.
[4:04 PM]Arien Valar: cool
[4:05 PM]Arien Valar: I ve got a wee birthday present for you as well .. well not me but it comes from Feuerschwanz ~ tell me what ye think about it
[4:05 PM]Arien Valar: YouTube - FEUERSCHWANZ - Sam The Brave (Official Video)
[4:05 PM]Varda: ohhhhh
[4:05 PM]Varda: Animated with art
[4:06 PM]Varda: ahh, has English translation too, thanks!
[4:07 PM]Arien Valar: its bi-lingual as they have many english speaking fans too
[4:07 PM]Varda: Yay, because that has quality and great subject.
[4:07 PM]Varda: Mini-movie. : )
[4:08 PM]Varda: ok, had to watch it. Thank you!
[4:09 PM]Arien Valar: here is the full translation on this link
[4:09 PM]Arien Valar: Sam The Brave
[4:09 PM]Varda: The birthday was Elwing's by the way.
[4:09 PM]Varda: Thanks!
[4:09 PM]Arien Valar: ah nice one
[4:09 PM]Varda: On to
[4:09 PM]Varda: Web:
[4:10 PM]Varda: Looking forward to the anniversary art and writing.
[4:10 PM]Varda: I might add guild-friend Kellie's walking tree video to the anniversary page. I need to ask her if that would be ok.
[4:10 PM]Varda: It's original, if I understood correctly.
[4:11 PM]Arien Valar: sounds awesome and wouild fit nicely
[4:11 PM]Varda: Here's hoping she is ok wiith it!
[4:11 PM]Varda: Gaming:
[4:11 PM]Varda: EVE from Pallando
[4:12 PM]Varda: It's ok to say hi first, pardon. : )
[4:12 PM]Pallando-Valar: Nothing to mention from Eve, really. There's a graphics update. "Smoke, Fire & Smart Lights""
[4:12 PM]Varda: Neato!
[4:12 PM]Varda: Sounds like a big deal.
[4:13 PM]Treebeard: Hello
[4:13 PM]Varda: Aiya Fangorn! : )
[4:13 PM]Varda: Thank you, Pallando! Did you have anything else you'd like to mention?
[4:15 PM]Varda: Fangorn is playing StarCraft 2 at the minute. : )
[4:15 PM]Varda: Other gamers in SC2 this past week that I know of are Eowyn, Faramir, Floppa, and Varda.
[4:15 PM]Varda: On to Eonwe's news, and we can hope work lets him come to the meeting later on. : )
[4:16 PM]Varda: World of Warcraft:
[4:16 PM]Varda: This week's bonus event: World Quests.
[4:16 PM]Varda: This week's PvP Brawl: Cooking Impossible.
[4:17 PM]Varda: Get the lowdown on WoW's next expansion: Midnight.
[4:17 PM]Varda: Hmm, new zones, race, and systems.
[4:18 PM]Varda: Also check out some of the Gamescom panels.
[4:18 PM]Varda: That has more on the expansion.
[4:19 PM]Varda: Arien, did you have a comment?
[4:19 PM]Arien Valar: I am impressed with that cinematic , I have to admit that and look forward to the housing feature. and given that our roleplay on Earthen Ring is tied to the game content it has many interestoing promises lorewise
[4:20 PM]Varda: Nice!
[4:20 PM]Varda: Check out WoW Weekly for anything not mentioned above.
[4:20 PM]Varda: and more on the expansion there. : )
[4:21 PM]Varda: Check out this week's hotfixes.
[4:21 PM]Arien Valar: I am playing through the last patch story and some of the features like Lorewalking and find fascinating stuff there as well ~
[4:22 PM]Varda: ah hah!
[4:22 PM]Varda: Hearthstone:
[4:22 PM]Varda: Patch 33.2.2 is out.
[4:22 PM]Varda: Diablo 4:
[4:23 PM]Varda: Running August 26th through September 2nd: Seasonal Splendour.
[4:23 PM]Varda: Overwatch 2:
[4:23 PM]Varda: A new Weekly Recall is out: Gaining Progress.
[4:24 PM]Varda: Season 18 approaches. It begins August 26th.
[4:25 PM]Varda: Lord of the Rings Online:
[4:25 PM]Varda: If you're still using the 32-bit legacy client you might want to read this.
[The Lord of the Rings Online: Deprecation of the 32-bit Unsupported Legacy Client
["The 32-bit Unsupported Legacy Client will no longer be available in the game launcher after August 27, 2025. Anyone currently using the launcher can select our supported 32-bit or 64-bit game client through their launcher options under General. Thank you."
[4:25 PM]Varda: Please note that date! August 27, that's sooner than August 31.
[4:26 PM]Varda: Don't forget that the 32-bit worlds are closing August 31st.
[4:26 PM]Varda:
[The Lord of the Rings Online:
["REMINDER that our 32-bit game worlds close after August 31st, 2025. Read more about our free transfer period and the closure of our 32-bit game worlds here."
[4:26 PM]Varda: If you don't transfer to a 64-bit world before then, you're going to be stuck until they re-open up the 32-bit worlds for moving only, and there's currently no ETA for that.
[4:27 PM]Varda: LotRO's combined Summerfest and Farmer's Faire is ongoing. Grab your new mount while it's still just gaming to do it.
[4:28 PM]Varda: Lord of the Rings gamers in kin this past week:
Peregrin branch (US RP-encouraged. Main):
Glamdring branch (US normal):
Angmar branch (temp US VIP "Veil of the Nine"):
Meriadoc branch (EU-RP)
Mordor branch (temp EU VIP "Veil of the Nine"):
[4:30 PM]Varda: We have had fairly regular people coming in pretty much daily on Peregrin, happy to say. : )
[4:30 PM]Varda: We have multiple levels, thanks to altitis.
[4:30 PM]Varda: On to
[4:30 PM]Varda: Tolkien!
[4:31 PM]Varda: Aiya Shelob : ) Did you have an update on your YouTube?
[4:31 PM]Arien Valar: altitis? whatever is that ?? scratch and looks innocent
[4:31 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : All the lights from these stars are making me sleepy. I'm gonna find my nice, dank, dark cave to sleep in.
[4:31 PM]Varda: hahhhaaa
[4:31 PM]Varda: Ah well. : )
[4:31 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Alas, bit of a weird week this week and had other plans today.
[4:31 PM]Varda: Topic to sleep on:
[4:32 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Should have a new episode again next week!
[4:32 PM]Varda: yay!
[4:32 PM]Varda: Topic:
[4:32 PM]Varda: Why are the orcs to be considered evil?
[4:32 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Hopefully I'll finish up Lorien and start working on Dol Guldur!
[4:32 PM]Varda: Don't have to rush out of Lorien. : )
[4:32 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Because they are tortured perversions of the elves.
[4:32 PM]Varda: But Mirkwood, yay!
[4:33 PM]Varda: And they act it.
[4:33 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Not rushing if the main quest puts me there.
[4:33 PM]Varda: Aye to that. : )
[4:33 PM]Varda: The elves saw them as abominations to be destroyed on sight.
[4:33 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : They are also considered evil because they are "creations" of Morgoth, the ultimate evil.
[4:33 PM]Varda: with help from his right hand Sauron, aye.
[4:34 PM]Arien Valar: are servants and slaves evil because they observe (obligatory without having a choice) an evil Lord and Master?
[4:34 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : And I say "creations" in quotation marks, because when Melkor turned away from the music of the Ainu to pursue his own, to rebel against Eru, he lost the ability to create, so all he could do was twist and turn.
[4:34 PM]Varda: True, Shelob
[4:35 PM]Varda: The next question might be why they served and why without choice. Not leaving.
[4:36 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : And thus they, while perhaps not inherently evil, are considered to be evil, because while they once were creatures of profound beauty (like the Dragons were twisted images of Ents I think), all that beauty was lost as Morgoth and Sauron infused them with malice so profound, no traces of beauty could ever return.
[4:37 PM]Varda: The original corrupted elves that did not change all the way to orcs but appeared to escape were too often spies, betrayers.
[4:37 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Some unwittingly, but yes.
[4:37 PM]Varda: Ones that escaped but weren't that turned were afraid and could turn on the elves when called on.
[4:37 PM]Varda: Others were feared as potential betrayers even if they were not.
[4:38 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Because what they once were was so twisted, so dark, that no matter where they went, they felt the hands of their torturers, the evil stench of Morgoth upon their very soul.
[4:38 PM]Treebeard: I thought Dragons were beautiful yet devastating, and adorned with jewels and gold. They acted like monsters because it was their nature.
[4:38 PM]Varda: Aye, it was their nature. : )
[4:38 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : And don't ask me if I can find a quote, though I believe something to a quote could be found.
[4:39 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : True, but dragons were also created with malice as their primary ingredient. They were created to have that nature.
[4:39 PM]Varda: I don't really give you enough time for the fun of digging up good quotes, sorry.
[4:39 PM]Varda: And the new orcs that came from natural procreation (according to the books) had that as their nature from birth.
[4:39 PM]Arien Valar: or turned into a true healer .. ah no, that was fan - fiction sigh , somebody wrote a tale about a healer who escaped from orc slavery I think .. well soldier turned healer should we say ? But I wonder if such a thing would have been possible in Tolkien's original writing?
[4:40 PM]Varda: That is the question we're trying to answer, aye. But remember this is fantasy also.
[4:40 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Nononono, I literally don't want to go looking it up, because it would be searching for a needle in a haystack. I'm not good at that. Ëonwë is the one for obscure quotes.
[4:40 PM]Varda: They have a body similar to humanoids so we want to think of them as human-like and having something worth keeping around if only in the afterlife.
[4:40 PM]Varda: Eonwe is great at it, aye. : )
[4:40 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : I tend to remember snippets from here and there and form them into a semi logical, quarter coherent sentence.
[4:41 PM]Varda: One can say they were trained to do evil by Sauron and Morgoth, but that would not make them inherently evil.
[4:41 PM]Varda: However,
[4:41 PM]Varda: a full humanoid being should have body, mind, and soul.
[4:41 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : No, but I would argue that by the same token the One Ring is not "inherently" evil.
[4:41 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : And yet it is.
[4:42 PM]Arien Valar: Point taken , spidey
[4:42 PM]Varda: The One Ring is an object, but the malice of Sauron was placed within it.
[4:42 PM]Varda: This is also true of the orcs, aye. Good comparison.
[4:43 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : But the same is true of the Race of Orcs. When the Orcs themselves emerged, they themselves were no longer Elves, but twisted, malicious, warlike, more animal than akin to the Elves they were created from.
[4:44 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Now the one thing that sets the One Ring apart from the Orcs, is the amount of malice or their "will" that was infused in them.
[4:44 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Sauron poured much of his essence into the One Ring, the same cannot be said of the Orcs.
[4:44 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Although... obviously, Morgoth was vastly more powerful than Sauron, being chief amongst the Ainu.
[4:44 PM]Varda: Aye. And yet, who was pouring evil into the orcs? Morgoth had immense evil.
[4:46 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : I think if we draw the same line to the Southrons or Eastrons, who did many evil things under Sauron's command, and while they had done so long before Sauron brought them under his command, they still were not "inherently" evil, they just did not know better.
[4:46 PM]Varda: They could be redeemed.
[4:47 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Even the Edain were, as far as the Elves were concerned, quite savage when they first entered Elven lands in the first Era.
[4:47 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : But that right there is the most important part. They can be redeemed. It might take generations, but Man is a creation of Eru, and therefore, while capable of great evil, not OF evil.
[4:48 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Not so the Orcs, they were OF evil, and could therefore only be evil.
[4:49 PM]Varda: The argument some use is that the orcs had leftover good from elven origin, and some also had human mixed in.
[4:50 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : That might have been true for the earliest of Orcs, and maybe, VERY maybe for the Uruk-Hai, although that union was evil in and of itself, but I don't believe it.
[4:51 PM]Varda: I agree. The earliest straight from elves might have gone to Mandos for streetsweepers, but the later ones were wholly from corruption.
[4:51 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Once the perversion of the Elves was completed into the race of the Orcs, any Elven resemblance was lost. I don't believe for a second the Orcs had some Darth Vader like qualities.
[4:53 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : I have found an interesting tidbit floating around on the web. Could be worth looking into:
[4:54 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : The question was posed: "In The Lord of the Rings, if Orcs as mentioned by J.R.R. Tolkien were the Elves tortured by Melkor to serve his will, does this mean they also were immortal?"
[4:54 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : It was answered like this:
[Tolkien himself recognized that this was a problem in his writing.
[In vol. X of HoME, there is a short and helpful essay, written after 1959, titled, ‘Orcs.’ In it Tolkien muses a bit on where they came from. He says that only Eru could make things with independent wills, so Orcs “must be corruptions of something pre-existing.” He also mentions that, while Eru allowed the creation of Dwarves by Aule, he would not do the same for creations of Morgoth. He also says that Morgoth could not pervert an entire race, and then make that perversion pass down the generations. He goes on, “In that case, Elves, as a source, are very unlikely.”
[At the end of this essay, he seems to settle on the idea that Orcs were beasts, made to look more 'human' in shape to mock Elves and Men.
[In another essay, also entitled 'Orcs,’ he moves away from this idea and seems to settle that Orcs were corrupted Men. So unfortunately Tolkien himself never really settled his own ideas about the origins of Orcs.
[But he does write this very interesting paragraph:
[They needed food and drink, and rest, though many were by training as tough as Dwarves in enduring hardship. They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to the nature of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with Men of higher race, such as the Edain.
[4:54 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : So there you have it. Orcs were not immortal. Tolkien does go on to clarify that in the Elder Days, some of Morgoth's servants, perhaps Maiar and therefore immortal and able to take whatever shape they wished, took the shapes of Orcs in order to lead Orcs. “Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who re-appeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.”
[In general, then, Orcs were not immortal. In fact they lived less long than the typical Numenorean. But there were a few, not true Orcs, but rather Maiar or other spirits in the form of Orcs, who were immortal.
[4:55 PM]Varda: Good job.
[4:55 PM]Varda: Here's a quick comment from just me. : )
[4:55 PM]Varda: A full humanoid being should have body, mind, and soul.
[4:56 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Aiya, reading up.
[4:56 PM]Varda: Obviously they have a body whether it comes from corrupted elves, corrupted humans, or a mud cocoon, it is there.
[4:56 PM]Varda: Aiya Phar : )
[4:56 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Aiya Pharz!
[4:56 PM]Varda: A mind they have because they can consider problems and want them solved.
[4:56 PM]Arien Valar: aiya Phari
[4:56 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : They have a mind, because they are capable of independant thought.
[4:56 PM]Varda: Example: the work boss orc tells Saruman that they have problems with the forges for lack of fuel, and wanting a solution with permission. Saruman says it's ok for them to cut down the nearby forest edge of Fangorn and they do that.
[4:56 PM]Varda: Example: the orcs consider making their own personal band(s) of orcs to go about looting for their personal gain, not doing it due to fear of their powerful bosses.
[4:56 PM]Varda: A soul, however, seems to be lacking.
[4:57 PM]Varda: They never show a moment of compassion. This is what makes them an abomination that must be destroyed.
[4:57 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : But a Soul they could not have, because that is the sole purview of Eru. (And the one exception of Aule).
[4:57 PM]Varda: And that is another good argument. (Argument in the sense of true discussion or math.)
[4:58 PM]Varda: Aule's robot dwarves had to be given souls or ("or"" as "in other words") the spark of the Flame Eternal from Eru, aye
[4:59 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Well, that's another can of worms and dwarves that warrants an entire discussion of its own I'd say.
[5:00 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : The Sever Fathers of Dwarves were not just automatons. They clearly shrank away from their Father's hammer, showing they already had something.
[5:00 PM]Varda: Pardon, thought that's what you were getting at.
[5:00 PM]Varda: The dwarves shrank away according to Eru because he gave them life.
[5:00 PM]Varda: The proof that he had done so was their backing away in fear, which they would not have done before.
[5:02 PM]Varda: I can give a quote if you like. : )
[5:02 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : I found the quote for that!
[5:02 PM]Varda: yay! Go ahead.
[5:02 PM]Varda: Sil "Of Aule and Yavanna"
[5:02 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO :
[And the voice of Ilúvatar said to Aulë: ‘Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will.’
[5:03 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : It's the very end of the entire quote, there's more to it, of course, but this part proves it was Eru who gave the Dwarves a will of their own.
[5:03 PM]Varda: Agreed. Exactly what I was about to type. Thank you. : )
[5:03 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : This is from a little earlier in the text to give a little context:
[And the voice of Ilúvatar said to him: ‘Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?’
[5:03 PM]Varda: And we have reached the hour.
[5:04 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : I kind of forgot about the second part, but in essence, that was indeed what I was getting at.
[5:04 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Thank you for the topic Varda!
[5:05 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : It was fun to participate and add my two cents (quite large cents today as it happens)!
[5:05 PM]Varda: Thank you! You did a great job, just what we needed!
[5:05 PM]Arien Valar: 5 cents at least i think nod
[5:06 PM]Varda: and Eru understood that it was Aule's love of what he knew Eru was about to do, and his impatience for that great creation.
[5:06 PM]Varda: Feel free to quote that next part. Trying to let Arien and you get some sleep here!
[5:07 PM]Varda: lively gavel bops the hammerpad
[5:07 PM]Varda: bop
[5:07 PM]Varda: After-meeting!
[5:07 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO :
[‘Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, so now I have taken up thy desire and given to it a place therein'
[5:07 PM]Varda: Perfect! Thank you.
[5:07 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO :
['But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice.’
[5:07 PM]Arien Valar: great discussion as always .. but yes i ll better get some shut eye
[5:08 PM]Arien Valar: Namarie for now
[5:08 PM]Varda: The sun needs set for now to rise again and give us light. : )
[5:08 PM]Varda: Namarie!
[5:08 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : There. The origin of the strife between Elves and Dwarves. It was ordained by Ilúvatar himself.
[5:08 PM]Varda: Eru could see it coming, but chose to do it anyway.
[5:08 PM]Varda: Not ordained so much as foreseen?
[5:08 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Ah! Blessed be thy rays as they depart this world so that glorious darkness may yet again reign!
[5:09 PM]Varda: Namo and Irmo agree: the brothers of Death and Sleep. : )
[5:09 PM]Varda: And Arwen brought back the beauty of Night. : )
[5:10 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Morgoth did us a favour by casting down the Lamps.
[5:11 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : From great evil great beauty may yet rise.
[5:11 PM]Varda: Eru works all things to his glory.
[5:12 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Ooooh!
[5:12 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : That's an interesting topic for another time!
[5:12 PM]Varda: : )
[5:12 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : How can the evil of the killing of the Two Trees, Telperion and Laurelin, way down the line, form a thing of beauty.
[5:13 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : What ramifications for good did it have in the Second or even in the Third Eras?
[5:13 PM]Varda: Twisting in a good way
[5:13 PM]Varda: Twisting to repair and make wonders instead of corrupt.
[5:13 PM]Varda: Like a eucatastrophe.
[5:13 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Aye.
[5:14 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : I mean, there's a LONG LONG line of evil that came from the slaying of the Trees, but much good also.
[5:14 PM]Varda: and we also need to let our Spidey get some 8-eye shut-eye. : )
[5:14 PM]Varda: Aye to that. 5:14 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : I hope I can be here next week to add to that!
[5:15 PM]Varda: That would be great! Good luck. : )
[5:15 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Alright, caught up
[5:15 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : If not, well, at least you will have a great topic to think on!
[5:15 PM]Varda: Grats, Phar. Lots of reading. : )
[5:15 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: A line struck me from a quote given here...
[5:16 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V:
["For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; "
[5:16 PM]Varda: For me, it's not new, but would be delightful to watch others work it.
[5:16 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Is this why the Ainur could not have children among themselves either?
[5:16 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Interesting thought!
[5:16 PM]Eönwë Valar: Heya.
[5:16 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Aiya!
[5:17 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Greetings, oh Master of Quotes. We have missed you.
[5:17 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : We did make do though.
[5:17 PM]Varda: Ahh, good thought, Phar!
[5:17 PM]Eönwë Valar: 1.) It was Trolls who were made in mockery of Ents, not Dragons. Dragons were created from some lizard creature that's never specified.
[5:17 PM]Varda: Aiya Eonwe : )
[5:17 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Ah yes, I knew something was up when I read that
[5:17 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Thanks! I knew it was something, just couldn't quite put my finger on it. Forgot about the trolls.
[5:18 PM]Varda: Eonwe, aye.
[5:18 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Trolls weren't very beautiful in a classical sense, so that fits
[5:18 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Oh! I am rewatching LotR, and I got reminded of the fact that in LotR, Aragorn is only like 90 years young. Spry fellow that Aragorn.
[5:18 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: 87 I recall
[5:19 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Of course Frodo was like... 51 at this point in the book?
[5:19 PM]Varda: Aye, 87 is what he said as I remember. Shocks poor Eowyn
[5:19 PM]Varda: Barely adult, Frodo
[5:19 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Wasn't he celebrating his 40th on the day he left the Shire?
[5:19 PM]Eönwë Valar: 2.) I'm reaching into some deep memory here so I may be off a bit, but round about the quoted material I believe, there's mention that the word "Orc", or its early forms at least, was created before the actual race ever appeared, being given to the dreaded shadows they saw near Cuivienen that would at times drag off Elves who wandered too far alone.
[5:20 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Nope, 50 is correct.
[5:20 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Ah, almost had it.
[5:20 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Fellowship ages
[5:20 PM]Eönwë Valar: 3.) There's no reason to believe the Ainur couldn't procreate, only that except for Melian and, by implication in the text some of Morgoth's servants, they didn't.
[5:21 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Love it says N/A to Gandalf.
[5:21 PM]Varda: hehe
[5:22 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Boromir was the one closest to his age. Makes sense as the archtypical token "normal" human.
[5:22 PM]Varda: That looks too old for Legolas, doesn't it? 24? I mean the actor. (note: Orlando Bloom was born January 13, 1977, so in 2001 he was indeed 24.)
[5:22 PM]Eönwë Valar: You mean 62 isn't closest to "N/A"?
[5:22 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: And I've always liked how Pippin was actually the oldest of the hobbits.
[5:22 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Well, he was of the line of Stewards, direct descendants from Numénor. Did they not usually live longer than 'normal' human beings as well? Like 90 was fairly normal to reach, right?
[5:23 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: True. But still closer than the others.
[@Ar-Pharazon-V
[And I've always liked how Pippin was actually the oldest of the hobbits.
[5:23 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : You mean Merry's actor?
[5:23 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: No, Pippin's actor!
[5:24 PM]Eönwë Valar: Billy Boyd = 33, Pippin = 28.
[5:24 PM]Eönwë Valar: Dominic Monaghan = 25, Merry = 36.
[5:25 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Aye. Sorry, I got confused.
[5:25 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Billy having a higher voice helps.
[5:25 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : And him being a 'fool of a Took'... also helps. He positivily oozes Took foolery.
[5:25 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: hehe
[5:26 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Though looking at the actors, interviews, behind the scenes clips, Dominic and Elijah were pretty good at such foolery as well
[5:26 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Yep.
[5:27 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : Anyway. I'm gonna go to bed. An hour after I had planned.
[5:27 PM]Varda: Rest fast!
[5:27 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : I blame Varda for creating awesome topics to participate in.
[5:27 PM]Varda: hehehehehehehe
[5:27 PM]Varda: And you did really well. : )
[5:28 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : No remorse Varda has. Nor any compassion for addling my sleep. I wonder if she has a soul?
[5:28 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: By the way, weren't the orcs also discussing going independent if possible, making new clans, bandit parties?
[5:28 PM]Spidey (Ungwetari/Shelob) BRIO : All I did was patch together several parts of Tolkien's writing. Not much to it really.
[5:29 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Part of that is not knowing any better of course, but they do picture themselves continuing on a dark path even if they weren't under dominion.
[5:29 PM]Varda: Go to sleeeeep
[5:30 PM]Varda: Aye, Phar
[5:30 PM]Eönwë Valar: Aye, another thing I wanted to comment on.
[5:31 PM]Varda: Aye, I did mention the bandit thing, didn't I? Meant to anyway. : )
[5:31 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Do we know what happened to them after Sauron's fall? I don't see them being put in internment camps like in the Warcraft universe.
[5:32 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: There was some mentioning of orc concepts in the fourth age story, but most of that was about humans emulating orcs, I think.
[5:32 PM]Eönwë Valar: I've mentioned before that based on the versions, the best way to understand orcs is as three "generations" if you were (if we define "generation" the same way we differentiate the "generations" of Death Knights in WoW).
[5:33 PM]Eönwë Valar:
[1.) Lesser Maiar taking physical form, procreation likely involved.
[2.) Introducing an Elvish strain with the above when Morgoth captured Elves.
[3.) Introducing a Mannish strain when those came into the picture.
[5:34 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: grin the term Mannish always reminds me of the Silmarillion parody where they talk about "Mannish women" and have to clarify that they're talking about female humans, and not women with mustaches and the like.
[5:34 PM]Eönwë Valar: Were orcs totally irredeeemable? Perhaps not, but I suspect that orcs have been so enmeshed in evil, left to themselves they would self-destruct long before they had a chance to heal enough as a people to create a normal society.
[5:53 PM]Eönwë Valar: And yes, Tolkien considered a sequel set in the Fourth Age, but he didn't find it appealing, with the youth emulating orcs and all as you mentioned.
[5:54 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Imagine writing a story demonstrating how the story never finishes, and then not finishing the story.
[5:54 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Very appropriate.
[5:54 PM]Varda: Too much of a thriller, he said, not what he wanted to be writing.
[5:54 PM]Eönwë Valar: You did it, Phar. You really did it.
[5:55 PM]Eönwë Valar: YouTube - The Neverending Story • Theme Song
[5:55 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: hehe
[5:55 PM]Eönwë Valar: I hope you're proud of youself.
[5:56 PM]Eönwë Valar: lol
[5:57 PM]Varda: :)
[5:58 PM]Eönwë Valar: Now I want to find that movie in 4k, heh.
[5:59 PM]Varda: and 3D of course
[6:01 PM]Eönwë Valar: I don't know. Don't think I want to feel like I'm in the swamp with Artax.
[6:06 PM]Varda: I'm glad we don't have smellavision yet.
[6:07 PM]Eönwë Valar: hehe
[6:08 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Imagine having to recreate smells for greenscreen shots.
[6:08 PM]Eönwë Valar: Here's some of that 80s movie goodness for you all: YouTube - The Neverending Story | Atreyu Kills Gmork
[6:08 PM]Eönwë Valar: I must now be off. Take care all, good night, sleep well, and have fun.
[6:09 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: namarie!
[6:16 PM]Varda: Namarie!
[August 25, 2025
[2:17 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: That one scene brings back so many memories. I didn't even remember Gmork at all.
[2:17 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Personal gaming report:
[2:18 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: For (non)flashgaming, all the badges for this week, I've linked before. So let's go with a short one I went all the way through again just for fun
[2:20 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Kongregate - Unnamed Chick Game" is a platform game where you play a chick still mostly in its egg, trying to find the corn in each level and then back to its nest.
[2:21 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: But beware, for each jump, or rather each time you land, damages your eggshell, and you lose if it breaks!
[2:22 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Luckily, new mechanics are introduced such as ways to replenish your health.
[2:22 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: The levels are short, you have infinite lives, and funny music plays, so enjoy!
[2:29 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Blizzard gaming:
[2:31 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Hearthstone: Level 76 on the reward track now. Only 5 levels gained, though I did all my quests still. Maybe my games were short, or the quests were cheap? I dunno. Still, should get to 100 on time!
[2:33 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Last week of the quest event had a quest for 700 cards played! But there were bonuses for new expansion's cards, golden cards, and ranked games. Combined, I went through it really fast, in like 3 or 4 games.
[2:33 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: With the brawl on top, I suppose.
[2:36 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Completed the reward track for the quest event as well, sooner than expected; in the end a daily quest showed up for 200 xp, compared to the usual 75, where I or my opponent had to kill a legendary minion called Endbringer Umbra. Since Umbra is the villain of this particular event, it must have been scripted, but not for the last day, since there were still days left. Must have been tracking my progress on the track so I could finish off with it. Interesting twist I've not seen Blizzard use before.
[2:37 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Still, I made a warlock deck to sacrifice my own minions to draw cards, so I could get Umbra drawn as soon as possible. And I did, on turn 3 or so, though I had to wait a few turns more to have the mana for it.
[2:38 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: But I got the summon off, and then actually managed to kill it myself with a warlock card Perfect ending to the event, really.
[2:39 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Anyway, final reward was a new death knight skin, King Bone Krusher, an undead variation of the large devilsaur King Krush.
[2:39 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I like the unholy spec vibe it has, and I like dinosaurs, so now I'm using it as well!
[2:41 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: As well as a legendary weapon, the golden version of the staff rewarded earlier in the track.
[2:42 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Brawl is Idols of Azeroth, where your deck consists of Raven Idols, 1-mana spells which allow you to discover either a random minion or spell, your choice.
[2:42 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I decided to go in with the mage, and focus solely on spells, since those can synergize each other. It went quite well!
[2:44 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I think it was my last match that went the most perfectly, as I got the spell to discover a minion twice, which gives you all 3 if you don't have minions in the deck; several other spells that synergize with the brawl itself; and finally the spell that replaces all spells in your deck with spells that normally cost 3 more mana but stay at 1. So that got me a bunch of more powerful spells basically for free!
[2:44 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I almost felt sorry for my opponent
[2:44 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Warcraft Rumble: No new levels.
[2:45 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Getting some progress on the experience front, however, with several boosts showing up in the Grid, and the login reward track also getting to the good stuff.
[2:45 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: A rare offer showed up as well, which is always useful.
[2:46 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Just steadily chugging along, really! Many minis now going into the 60k or higher.
[2:47 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: WoW:
[2:47 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: More raiding! Got 7 out of 8 bosses down on normal, as well as some practice on Dimensius himself.
[2:48 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Getting some good gear as well, including a nice surprise from the vault, boots that increase the power of the special cloak by 30%!
[2:48 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Cloak itself has now hit tier 4 as well.
[2:49 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I'm not feeling in any danger tanking the raid, though my gear's still at a lower level, with cloak shield proccing all the time
[2:51 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Weekly quests are world quests, though I only do the weekly outdoor quests, so won't be getting that one. Gives me more time to... well, catch up on some sleep Wish I'd gotten around to some D4 and Shadowlands stuff, but frankly I needed to replenish my real life health a bit.
[2:52 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Other than the raiding, my progress went into delves.
[2:52 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I'm still on tier 8, since my ilevel hadn't quite reached up to the recommended for tier 9. One ilevel below it Sure I could go in and try, but I'm having fun relaxing in tankspec as is, so it can wait until I get more raidgear from normal and heroic.
[2:53 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Cleared all stories for the new delve, my negative review of which can be found earlier in the channel Let's just say I'm glad I don't have to go back there. In fact, with all delve-specific achievements out of the way, I can go to any bountiful I like each day!
[2:55 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I also found the "shortcut" once, sending me through a void portal to a dungeon where both previous seasons' nemeses (yes, that's the plural!) had to be fought, not in their final forms but in their halfway intrusion forms, to complete the delve early.
[2:57 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I also fought Ky'veza as intrusions several times. I don't remember if it was those or the shortcut that got me the Rusty Gobjets cloak appearance, but I do know it was a special source.
[2:58 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: The shortcut also happened to be where I got Brann to level 82, hitting 83 later in the week. Some more curios as well!
[2:59 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: And finally, I got a new pet from the 4th Archival Assault delve, as if the game was rewarding me for slogging through them all. Which was Mr. DELVER, the goblin mech pet introduced in the previous season.
[3:00 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I think the only pet I'm missing now is Sneef, the mole pet that mostly comes from kobold delves. I'll have to focus on those when I can!
[3:02 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Though lately they can also drop from other delves, so I'll still be able to mess around.
[3:02 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: And that's my report for this week!
[3:02 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Namarie :)
