Sunday, April 13, 2025
5:00pm Eastern Time
Discord: Valar Guild/meeting_place
Attending: Arien, Ar-Pharazon, Eonwe (presiding), Falco, Leod, Sandalf, Varda
Topic: Do we see any re-awakening, re-birth in Tolkien's works?
[April 20, 2025
[1:37 PM]Varda: Aiya! I'm having a bit of confusion with the time changes. : )
[1:41 PM]Varda: so 1:30 is 4:30, got it. Half an hour more!
[1:42 PM]Varda: Gotta love /servertime on LotRO being in Valar time. : )
[2:04 PM]Eönwë Valar: Heya all.
[2:04 PM]Eönwë Valar: @Bounder Meeting beginning!
[2:04 PM]Eönwë Valar: Give me one sec then we'll begin.
[2:09 PM]Eönwë Valar: Ok, here we go.
[2:09 PM]Eönwë Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
[2:09 PM]Eönwë Valar: Happy Easter!
[2:10 PM]Eönwë Valar: Membership:
[2:10 PM]Varda: back : )
[2:10 PM]Varda: This member is still visiting other members. Many eggs have been chased down.
[2:10 PM]Eönwë Valar: Anyone here and paying attention, say Yavanna to be counted for the attendance.
[2:11 PM]Varda: Yavanna
[2:11 PM]Eönwë Valar: And heya Varda :}
[2:11 PM]Varda: Aiya Eonwe
[2:11 PM]Arien Valar: Aiya all
[2:11 PM]Varda: Aiya Sunshine : )
[2:11 PM]Léod: Yavanna
[2:11 PM]Varda: ☼
[2:11 PM]Varda: Leod! Aiya : )
[2:12 PM]Léod:
[2:12 PM]Arien Valar: sorry just looking for spooky stuff to get a pet in Drustvar but Yavanna :_
[2:12 PM]Eönwë Valar: :}
[2:12 PM]Varda: Yay pets!
[2:12 PM]Varda: Happy Easter and end of Passover : )
[2:13 PM]Léod: Drustvar.
[2:14 PM]Eönwë Valar: Any other member news?
[2:14 PM]Varda: Happy to see Elrond and Celebrian in LotRO today, newly moved to Peregrin. Lovely surprise!
[2:15 PM]Eönwë Valar: Awesome :}
[2:16 PM]Varda: Greetings from Fangorn, Eowyn, Faramir, and Floppa. : )
[2:16 PM]Eönwë Valar: And heya to them :}
[2:16 PM]Varda: oh
[2:17 PM]Varda: A question to answer for some folks:
[2:17 PM]Varda: The "bouncer" as Phar called it is to type @Bounder @Guild-friend Meeting time!
[2:18 PM]Varda: That's all there is to it. The @ and the role.
[2:18 PM]Falco: Aiya
[2:18 PM]Varda: Aiya Falco!
[2:19 PM]Eönwë Valar: Heya Falco.
[2:20 PM]Eönwë Valar: Ok, so before moving on and for later easy reference, the attendance stands at: Eonwë, Varda, Arien, Leod, Falco.
[2:20 PM]Eönwë Valar: Web:
[2:21 PM]Eönwë Valar: Nothing, yet.
[2:21 PM]Eönwë Valar: Thank you to Varda for getting the transcript up during the week despite being on vacation :}
[2:22 PM]Varda: My pleasure. Biggest trick was a different computer and program changes.
[2:22 PM]Eönwë Valar: And thank you for doing it for the last almost 3 decades despite work, storms, life, etc. :}
[2:23 PM]Varda: and thanks to you all for keeping our gang of buddies together!
[2:23 PM]Eönwë Valar: Gaming:
[2:24 PM]Eönwë Valar: World of Warcraft:
This week's bonus event: World Quests.
This week's PvP Brawl: Arathi Blizzard.
[2:24 PM]Eönwë Valar: Here's the update notes for Update 11.1.5. (Coming Tuesday)
[2:25 PM]Eönwë Valar: Phase 4 of WoW Classic 2th Anniversary Edition begins may 1st.
[2:25 PM]Eönwë Valar: Check out WoW Weekly for anything not mentioned above. --- https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24194660/wow-weekly-everything-coming-in-1115-and-more World of Warcraft WoW Weekly: Everything Coming in 11.1.5, and More! - WoW Catch up on the latest World of Warcraft news!
[2:25 PM]Eönwë Valar: Check out this week's hotfixes. --- https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24179333/hotfixes-april-17-2025 World of Warcraft Hotfixes: April 17, 2025 - WoW Here you will find a list of hotfixes that address various issues related to World of Warcraft: The War Within, Cataclysm Classic, Season of Discovery, WoW Classic Era, and Hardcore.
[2:25 PM]Eönwë Valar: Hearthstone:
2:25 PM]Eönwë Valar: Some features intended for 32.2 are being pushed back for more development time.
[2:26 PM]Eönwë Valar: Battlegrounds Season 10 goes live April 29th.
[2:26 PM]Eönwë Valar: Warcraft Rumble:
[2:26 PM]Eönwë Valar: You can now challenge people to duels.
[2:26 PM]Eönwë Valar: Ironforge Siege is available.
[2:26 PM]Eönwë Valar: Diablo 4:
[The next livestream will be April 24th.
[2:27 PM]Eönwë Valar: Diablo Immortal: New legendaries are available. ---
[2:27 PM]Eönwë Valar: Overwatch 2:
[2:28 PM]Eönwë Valar: A new Director's Take is out: Introducing Hero Bans For Competitive Play. --- https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24197272/director-s-take-introducing-hero-bans-for-competitive-play/
[2:28 PM]Eönwë Valar: A new play mode is available so here's some blogs about it:
[2:28 PM]Eönwë Valar: Enter the Stadium - Get Ready To Battle --- https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24188046/enter-the-stadium-get-ready-to-battle/
[Enter the Stadium - Lessons Learned From The Playtests --- https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24191421/enter-the-stadium-lessons-learned-from-the-playtests/
[Enter the Stadium - Keys To Victory --- https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24191424/enter-the-stadium-keys-to-victory/
[Enter the Stadium - Climbing The Ranks --- https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24191425/enter-the-stadium-climbing-the-ranks/
[2:29 PM]Eönwë Valar: Lord of the Rings Online:
Standing Stone is saying Thank You for being patient with them while launching the 64-bit servers.
[2:29 PM]Eönwë Valar: And Varda has more LotRO news so I'll let her take it from here :}
[2:29 PM]Varda: Thank you, Eonwe.
[2:30 PM]Varda: That's a great code that you mentioned! Grab your main for that one.
[2:30 PM]Varda: Here's another:
[2:30 PM]Varda: thru April 24 Code: NOFEARS
[2:30 PM]Varda: Forester crafting event is going on in Combe.
[2:30 PM]Varda: Lord of the Rings Online in kin branches during this past 14 days (since I missed the previous meeting):
Peregrin branch (US RP-encouraged):
Glamdring branch (US normal):
Treebeard branch (temp VIP slow-level):
Angmar branch (temp US VIP "Veil of the Nine"):
Mordor branch (temp EU VIP "Veil of the Nine"):
[2:31 PM]Varda: Much experimenting is going on by players with the new raid, and by the devs struggling to handle the numbers of people and the strain the masses of raiders for the new raid are giving.
[2:32 PM]Varda: New hardware, lots of coding.
[2:32 PM]Varda: They are amazing about getting things under control. Working very hard at it.
[2:33 PM]Varda: Starcraft 2 this past week, players that I know of: Eowyn, Fangorn, Faramir, Floppa, Varda
[2:33 PM]Varda: Others might want to mention a game they're enjoying as well. : )
[2:33 PM]Varda: End of my news (we hope).
[2:34 PM]Eönwë Valar: Thanks :}
[2:34 PM]Léod: LOL. I am playing ESO and SWTOR, and enjoying them both right now. Today is the last day of the ESO Jubilee, but there are a whole lot of changes coming in June for the game, including multi-classing, so that's new and crazy. That's it, really.
[2:35 PM]Léod: Unless people have questions of course.
[2:37 PM]Sandalf13: Aiya All!
[2:37 PM]Sandalf13: Glad to be here!
[2:37 PM]Varda: Aiya Sandalf!
[2:37 PM]Eönwë Valar: No exciting gaming for me this week, but anyone interested in my WoW adventures can see them during the week :}
[2:37 PM]Eönwë Valar: Heya Sandalf.
[2:37 PM]Varda: I read them. : )
[2:39 PM]Sandalf13: I often read your interesting conversations with Ar on Wednesdays or so..
[2:39 PM]Sandalf13: Alas. I have nothing to contribute.
[2:39 PM]Varda: You just did. : )
[2:40 PM]Eönwë Valar: Any other gaming news before we cry "Tolkien" and let slip the dogs of lore?
[2:41 PM]Varda: I ask
[2:41 PM]Varda: Leod, could you identify the abbrevs above?
[2:42 PM]Léod: Well, Varda thinks it would be a good idea to explain my game abbreviations. ESO is Elder Scrolls Online, and SWTOR is Star Wars: The Old Republic.
[2:42 PM]Varda: Thanks!
[2:44 PM]Eönwë Valar: Thanks. Easy to forget not everyone may be as familiar with the acronyms.
[2:44 PM]Eönwë Valar: (Looking at myself, heh)
[2:45 PM]Varda: hehe
[2:45 PM]Eönwë Valar: So used to spouting them out.
[2:45 PM]Sandalf13: I think it would be neat to create a language consisting only of acronyms...when I was in the Navy, there was a 187 page book written that inclyuded only Acronyms and their meanings.
[2:46 PM]Sandalf13: I sure it has been updated multiple times since then!
[2:46 PM]Arien Valar: okay i am here now i got my Wicker Pup 😄
[2:46 PM]Sandalf13: Aiya Arien!
[2:46 PM]Arien Valar: Aiya Sandalf 🙂
[2:47 PM]Eönwë Valar: I imagine it would go about as well as this: YouTube - Sokath his eyes uncovered!
[2:47 PM]Sandalf13: Sounds good.
[2:48 PM]Eönwë Valar: And congrats to Arien :}
[2:48 PM]Varda: oohh Wicker Pup! Grats Arien 🙂
[2:48 PM]Arien Valar: thankies 🙂
[2:49 PM]Eönwë Valar: OK.
[2:49 PM]Arien Valar: I have to say originally that must have been a pest ^^ especially on a PVP realm where the video was from but .. it helped trremendously
[2:49 PM]Eönwë Valar:
[2:50 PM]Arien Valar: hehee nice
[2:50 PM]Eönwë Valar: (One of the aforementioned "dogs of lore". He slipped out.)
[2:50 PM]Sandalf13: Shake that booty...
[2:50 PM]Varda: The Linguistics figured out by Picard would have pleased JRRT.
[2:51 PM]Eönwë Valar: Indeed. Was posting that in reply to Sandalf's talk of a language of acryonyms. Would have to be at least as difficult as a language of metaphors.
[2:52 PM]Varda: Aye.
[2:52 PM]Arien Valar: Somehow i think Picard and Tokien would have gotten along quite well
[2:52 PM]Varda: Likely!
[2:52 PM]Eönwë Valar: OK, now that we're in Tolkien, Varda might have a topic for us :} All yours, Varda :}
[2:53 PM]Varda: hah, ok. Thank you. : )
[2:53 PM]Varda: Do we see any re-awakening, re-birth in Tolkien's works?
[2:53 PM]Léod: You mean like Gandalf?
[2:53 PM]Varda: That's definitely one!
[2:53 PM]Varda: Elves that die or leave Middle-earth go to Valinor to a new and beautiful home.
[2:53 PM]Eönwë Valar:
[Image of Gandalf]
[2:53 PM]Sandalf13: What about Glorfindel returning from Valinor? He got pretty reborn, eh?
[2:53 PM]Varda: Aye!
[2:54 PM]Arien Valar: Luthien and Beren
[2:54 PM]Léod: Or, are you going to go in to the depths of crazy and controversy that is Glorfindel? LOL
[2:54 PM]Léod: I guess so.
[2:54 PM]Varda: Always fun, but we're just lightly mentioning here.
[2:55 PM]Varda: Aye, Luthien was the only one to convince Mandos of the return being a good idea. Unless Glorfindel is also a great singer. ; )
[2:55 PM]Arien Valar: they lived in the land of the dead that Lived or something like that
[2:55 PM]Varda: True, named after them.
[2:55 PM]Arien Valar: but only a short time before they died both together
[2:55 PM]Sandalf13: Yes...but they had a child, and Beren did take part in the rout of th Dwarves that had destroyed Thingol's realm...
[2:55 PM]Varda: To elves, it's going to be short.
[2:56 PM]Eönwë Valar: Well Glorfindel got the usual elvish treatment. Luthien had to sing for two.
[2:56 PM]Varda: Human immortality: children : )
[2:56 PM]Varda: lol
[2:56 PM]Léod: The dwarves were all created, then put to "sleep" I guess, then re-awakened at the appropriate time.
[2:56 PM]Varda: ooh, good one
[2:56 PM]Eönwë Valar: Interesting point about the Dwarves.
[2:57 PM]Léod: And isn't Durin supposed to be reborn over and over again, through his descendants?
[2:57 PM]Eönwë Valar: According to Dwarvish legend. (edited)
[2:57 PM]Varda: That is what the dwarves say. LotRO made it real. : )
[2:58 PM]Varda: cough spoiler, ignore that.
[2:58 PM]Léod: Yeah, but it's a related topic on rebirth, yeah?
[2:58 PM]Varda: It's right on point.
[2:58 PM]Eönwë Valar: Well, LotRO is still just giving it from the Dwarvish perspective I'd say. Not like we get "Word of Eru" booming from the sky on the matter :}
[2:58 PM]Léod: Indeed.
[2:58 PM]Varda: JRRT left a lot of things purposefully vague.
[2:59 PM]Varda: Humans come to being but Morgoth finds them quickly.
[2:59 PM]Varda: Some of them escape to find new ways of life.
[2:59 PM]Varda: Some find themselves working for the elves of the west but eventually form their own countries and even a High Kingdom uniting all of them to make them strong and prosperous.
[3:00 PM]Léod: Ew... I just thought of something related to the elves. Are orcs reborn from them?
[3:00 PM]Eönwë Valar: No.
[3:00 PM]Sandalf13: I do not think that the Orcs are "reborn" per se...I think that the existing Elves that Morgoth captured were gradually changed into Orcs, but continued in their same life form...
[3:01 PM]Léod: So, recreated?
[3:01 PM]Sandalf13: Then reproduced and werwe fruitful and multiplied, and multiplied, and multiplied...
[3:01 PM]Léod: Or just corrupted? The elves were certainly not the same as before.
[3:01 PM]Varda: Orcs, after the original corrupted beings, reproduced in normal humanoid manner.
[3:01 PM]Sandalf13: Absolutely
[3:01 PM]Varda: But they started evil and were raised evil.
[3:02 PM]Varda: They are a fantasy creature of evil at that time. Not redeemable.
[3:03 PM]Sandalf13: We could go off he deep end on that one...Elves are not "big" on procreation, the way that Men (and Orcs?) are...I wonder if TOlkien was making a subtle statement about as they began to fall from the "high" of Elfdom, they began to procreate more and more, as they became "lower..." Wow. We could go a long way with that one..
[3:03 PM]Eönwë Valar: I think the best way to view the "creation" of orcs to reconcile the different ideas of their origin is to view it essentially as stages:
[3:04 PM]Eönwë Valar: 1.) The original orc population were lesser Maiar in the service of Morgoth, taken physical form, whom may have procreated in that form.
[3:04 PM]Léod: I didn't mean to hijack the thread. Sorry.
[3:04 PM]Eönwë Valar: 2.) Next iteration introduced an elvish strain when Morgoth captured stray Elves after they awakened, and possibly strengthened when more were captured after they fled from Oromë.
[3:04 PM]Sandalf13:
[Image of stages of elf turning into an orc.]
[3:04 PM]Sandalf13: There you go...
[3:04 PM]Léod: And we know they CAN procreate ie. Melian.
[3:04 PM]Varda: Leod, happens all the time. We call it a "tangent".
[3:05 PM]Eönwë Valar: 3.) Introduction of the Mannish strain when Man awoke.
[3:05 PM]Léod: Was the mannish strain the weakest ones?
[3:06 PM]Léod: Like goblins and such?
[3:06 PM]Eönwë Valar: Since the original generations of orcs would've essentially set the base template, the introduction of Elvish and Mannish DNA could've altered some aspects, but you'd still get the mostly hideous guises the Maiar would've taken.
[3:06 PM]Léod: It certainly would explain a lot.
[3:06 PM]Sandalf13: Not necessarily...Tolkien hinted that while Elves were ccertainly stronger in Hroar, Men were probably stronger in Fea...
[3:06 PM]Eönwë Valar: Actually I think the Mannish strain made them stronger, like the Uruk Hai.
[3:07 PM]Léod: Ah, yes, Orcs and Goblin Men.
[3:08 PM]Eönwë Valar: I don't have a spot off the top of my head to quote, but I'm about 90% sure it's in the orc discussions: Tolkien mentions Saruman had somehow got some information that led him to re-introducing the mannish strain into orcs and making them stronger.
[3:09 PM]Léod: What is Fea, Sandalf?
[3:09 PM]Eönwë Valar: Fëa = spirit, soul aka "Fëanor" => "Spirit of fire"
[3:09 PM]Varda: Aye, Eonwe, in the LotR i think.
[@Eönwë Valar
[Fëa = spirit, soul aka "Fëanor" => "Spirit of fire"
[3:09 PM]Léod: Thank you.
[3:10 PM]Sandalf13: Thanks, Eonwe...I was looking at the Fea and Hroar website to refresh my memory...
[3:10 PM]Eönwë Valar: It's used specifically in relation to incarnate beings, namely Men, Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits.
[3:10 PM]Eönwë Valar: For completion: Hroa = body.
[@Sandalf13
[Thanks, Eonwe...I was looking at the Fea and Hroar website to refresh my memory...
[3:10 PM]Eönwë Valar: MP. :)
[Note: our guild's gamer comment used so often that it became MP, meaning "My pleasure"]
[3:12 PM]Eönwë Valar: There are other words that mean "spirit" but in different contexts, i.e. "Sul" => "spirit, breath" as in "Sulimo" referring to the "Lord of the Breath of Arda" aka Manwë.
[3:13 PM]Sandalf13: In Hebrew, FYI, the word Ruach means both "breath" and "soul."
[3:13 PM]Arien Valar: does Sulnar mean anythhing then ? Spirit o.. does nar mean something?#
[3:13 PM]Sandalf13: I wonder if JRRT knew that...possibly?
[3:13 PM]Eönwë Valar: Nar is fire.
[3:13 PM]Eönwë Valar: I wouldn't be suprised if he did, Sandalf.
[3:14 PM]Arien Valar: Spiritfire .. yeah that fits
[3:14 PM]Eönwë Valar: He was a philologist, so he no doubt had tons of such tidbits of knowledge to use and reflect on.
[3:14 PM]Eönwë Valar: I use Sulenar as one of my alts names, and it's the name of Auros' horse in our RP (gasp that's been mentioned again! :})
[3:14 PM]Arien Valar: My ex dragon and main rp character
[3:15 PM]Varda: I am going to mention two more items on the original topic, then may have to bow out.
[3:15 PM]Varda: Really appreciate all the help!
[3:15 PM]Eönwë Valar: That's fine. Should wrap up soon anyway.
[3:16 PM]Sandalf13: Busy day, today is.
[3:16 PM]Varda: Ok, thanks!
[3:16 PM]Varda: Hobbits live under the northern Numenoreans and the High King, but that fell apart.
[3:16 PM]Varda: They retain their loyalty in case of a return, but make their own cities and country, which are recognized by the returned High King.
[3:16 PM]Varda: So they had a form of rebirth of their civilization.
[3:16 PM]Léod: Very nice!
[3:16 PM]Varda: Dwarves who were forced out of Erebor, the Lonely Mountain kingdom by the dragon, Smaug, eventually return and regain their kingdom.
[3:16 PM]Varda: They become a force aiding in the War of the Ring preventing Sauron access to the north.
[3:17 PM]Varda: Done. : )
[3:17 PM]Sandalf13: In that light, with the coming of Elessar the High King, could we not say that the Kingdom of the Men of the West in Middle-earth was reborn?
[3:17 PM]Arien Valar: of course .. how could we forget that ^
[3:17 PM]Eönwë Valar: Good points on both.
[3:17 PM]Varda: Exactly, Sandalf.
[3:17 PM]Eönwë Valar: On all three.
[3:17 PM]Léod: Very nice too, Sandalf!
[3:18 PM]Eönwë Valar: Eregion was something of an attempt at that for the Noldor.
[3:18 PM]Arien Valar: YouTube - Clamavi De Profundis - The King Beneath the Mountains
[3:18 PM]Eönwë Valar: Didn't go quite as well.
[3:19 PM]Sandalf13: But still very profound...he he.
[3:19 PM]Eönwë Valar: (Referring to my Eregion comment, to be clear)
[3:19 PM]Varda: But it did "spawn" Rivendell! A rebirth there?
[3:19 PM]Sandalf13: Perhaps just a new birth?
[3:20 PM]Eönwë Valar: Granted, I guess 700+ years isn't bad for a human civilization, but not really impressive for immortals.
[3:20 PM]Varda: The refugees from Eregion went to Rivendell
[3:20 PM]Eönwë Valar: Aye, they did.
[3:20 PM]Varda: So, rebirth
[3:20 PM]Varda: The road goes on and on. : )
[3:20 PM]Sandalf13: But Gondor survived from the beginning of the Thirda Age until the beginning of he Fourth Age...that is certainly a long time, even by Elvish standards//
[3:20 PM]Eönwë Valar: It was determined to maintain a presence on the eastern side of Eriador, just not in Eregion.
[3:21 PM]Varda: Elves ran from the First Age into the Fourth.
[3:21 PM]Sandalf13: Yes; immortality is a long time.
[3:22 PM]Arien Valar: sort of eternal?
[3:22 PM]Arien Valar: and that is a word even too long for me 🙂
[3:23 PM]Sandalf13: Even Tolkien said that at the end, the Valar. Maiar, and Elves would grow tired of their immortality...
[3:23 PM]Eönwë Valar: 700-ish years you'd barely be looking at a new generation coming up for Elves.
[3:24 PM]Varda: Aye, Sandalf. They would eventually wish for the freedom from the circles of the world provided as the Gift to Men.
[3:24 PM]Varda: The fear began sort of dissolving the hroar.
[3:25 PM]Eönwë Valar: I missed a comment from Sandalf I want to jump back to real quick.
[3:27 PM]Eönwë Valar: Actually, Elves were "eager to increase their kind" early on. Tolkien estimates the first few generations probably averaged 6 kids each pairing before they stopped having kids. In the third age, one or two. The biggest problems would be finding a moment of relative safety and stability for the longer growth of elves, dwindling prospects as more went West, and generally the aging of the Elvish population.
[3:28 PM]Varda: Feanor famously had many children, as an early elf.
[3:30 PM]Léod: I'm afraid I have to go. Thank you for the interesting meeting!
[3:30 PM]Varda: We are overtime, having too much fun!
[3:30 PM]Varda: Namarie, Leod!
[3:30 PM]Sandalf13: I wonder if the decrease in the Elves' proclivity to procreate was a reflection of their "boredom" with Arda as the centuries rolled on.
[3:30 PM]Arien Valar: Elrond had three children (that we know of)
[3:30 PM]Sandalf13: Namarie, Leod!
[3:30 PM]Eönwë Valar: Now is actually a good time to call it. I could go on for a while on this topic.
[3:30 PM]Eönwë Valar: Bangs gavel
[3:30 PM]Sandalf13: Elrond was half-mortal too...I suspect that he couldn't forgo all of his mortal heritage...and inclinations.
[Tolkien chat continues below.]
[3:30 PM]Eönwë Valar: Aftermeeting:
[3:31 PM]Arien Valar: hehe indeed
[3:31 PM]Varda: We chat in After-meetings too. No need to quit for those who can stay. : )
[3:31 PM]Sandalf13: His mortal heritage...and ALL that that entails...
[3:31 PM]Léod: I did want to say before I go that Elrond, having relative safety in Rivendale, had three.
[3:31 PM]Varda: But he lost out on having Celebrian with him and had to wait for Valinor to see her again.
[3:31 PM]Sandalf13: And perhaps you could count Estel as a fourth, whom Elrond loved as a son of his own, as noted by Tolkien.
[3:32 PM]Eönwë Valar: Not to get too modern day, but I could cite a bunch of reasons why people today say they don't want kids, and it would fit for Elves.
[3:32 PM]Arien Valar: well i have to leave though i fear before my mind stops walking these high flying paths :)]
[3:32 PM]Léod: I know, so sad.
[3:32 PM]Léod: Ciao!
[3:32 PM]Varda: I wonder how many children happened in Valinor for the elves. They would have all the room they needed!
[3:32 PM]Sandalf13: Sei gesund, Leod!
[3:32 PM]Arien Valar: Namarie
[3:32 PM]Sandalf13: Namarie, Arien!
[3:32 PM]Varda: Rest well, Arien!
[3:32 PM]Eönwë Valar: "Why would I bring a child into this world?"
["I need to find the right person first?"
["It's not safe enough right now."
[etc etc etc.
[3:32 PM]Varda: And see the movie "Idiocracy". : )
[3:33 PM]Sandalf13: An AI will soon take over, and we will all be slaves to the machines...
[3:33 PM]Varda: Worse, we might goof-off and let AI do it all.
[3:33 PM]Sandalf13: We would be like the Elves...all play, and no work, and whatever would we do to keep entertained?
[3:33 PM]Eönwë Valar: Elves put off having children during dangerous times. Contrary to logic, that just made it more difficult to maintain their population.
[3:34 PM]Varda: Aye, right when they needed replacements.
[3:34 PM]Sandalf13: Work is essential to the human psyche, I believve.
[3:34 PM]Varda: Also, war wipes out the best men of an age that should be fathers.
[3:35 PM]Varda: I heard an interesting speculation that Legolas was supposed to marry the daughter of Amroth and Nimrodel. He might have in Valinor.
[3:35 PM]Sandalf13: Look at the U.K. in the 1920s. Varda, you are right on.
[3:35 PM]Sandalf13: An arranged marriage?
[3:35 PM]Eönwë Valar: So by the end of a war, you end up with alot of older elves, fewer prospects for marriage, and a slower population regrowth. Couples that might've been able to have 3 or 4 more children instead lose those years.
[3:36 PM]Varda: More or less just who else was available? Of the same race and station?
[3:36 PM]Eönwë Valar: Get lucky to have one or two, considering there's at least a 12-year gap, increasing between each child.
[3:36 PM]Varda: And we had the fading of the elves from Middle-earth. They needed Valinor to re-invigorate.
[3:37 PM]Varda: At least for a time.
[3:37 PM]Sandalf13: I wonder if their population began to increase once again, once they returned to Valinor...
[3:37 PM]Varda: Very possible. I also wonder if they had to wait for their partner to leave Mandos, which could take a long time.
[3:38 PM]Eönwë Valar: "Fading" just refers to their soul consuming their bodies as they age. After the Fourth Age began, this process was sped up, but in theory, if Elven population could've kept up with human population, they could've stuck around.
[3:38 PM]Sandalf13: Time is nothing to the Elves, at least for the present time...
[3:38 PM]Eönwë Valar: Elves do still have seasons to their lives.
[3:38 PM]Varda: If the body is fading away, the things of the body tend to as well.
[3:39 PM]Varda: But if re-invigoration of the hroa occurs in Valinor, they could have increased there.
[3:39 PM]Varda: Time is slower for elves, but it passes.
[3:39 PM]Eönwë Valar: They had a very wide age range for time to have children, but there is a point where they sort of "move on".
[3:39 PM]Varda: Aye, Eonwe
[3:40 PM]Sandalf13: Finrod Felagund had a real insight into that, when in the Athrabeth, he related to Andreth that at the end of time, it would be the MORTALS who had left Arda who would help in the creation of the more perfect Arda...the Mortals, who with a higher amount of Fea, would never tire of starting new things....
[3:40 PM]Eönwë Valar: I want to say 20-ish to 76-ish physical age if memory serves, affected by other things like life difficulties and such.
[3:41 PM]Eönwë Valar: I don't recall anything saying mortals had a "higher amount of fëa", Sandalf. Do you have a source for that?
[3:41 PM]Sandalf13: Sorry...my comment was referring to a thread a few threads back....slow fingers, slow mind...
[3:41 PM]Sandalf13: I shall try to find it....
[3:42 PM]Varda: Would it be in the Finrod/Andreth conversation?
[3:42 PM]Sandalf13: Very possibly...will have to look.
[3:43 PM]Eönwë Valar: I don't recall it from there. Not saying it's not, but it sounds like something I would've made mental note of.
[3:43 PM]Varda: It might have been something else than fea.
[3:44 PM]Varda: The humans might still have the shorter lifespans to go join Eru, which allows their lifetime to be a push to do what they can quickly.
[3:44 PM]Sandalf13: After all, if one considers it, Mortals are (by and large) always interested in procreating...perhaps as a function of their shorter lives, vis-a-vis the Elves...this may reflect their estel for the future, as their lives on Arda oftentimes appeared grim to them...those Men of the First Age only saw Morgoth at the height of his powers, with gloom, doom, and warfare all around...not a very encouraging environment, yet they persisted in having lots and lots of kids...
[3:45 PM]Varda: Humans tend to try to have lots of kids after war. See us Baby Boomers as an example of that. : )
[3:45 PM]Sandalf13: Indeed. I are one.
[3:46 PM]Varda: Yep, we're not far in age. : )
[3:46 PM]Varda: Humans can feel their mortality in such conditions, and set up their form of species immortality with children.
[3:47 PM]Sandalf13: We are the sum total of all the generations that have passed before us...and we are just a link to the generations ahead.
[3:47 PM]Eönwë Valar:
[3:48 PM]Sandalf13: The old Lafayette joke about Lehigh was "I are an Engineer..." Of course, the irony of that is that Lafayette was also known as a good school for producing engineers...
[3:49 PM]Sandalf13: Well...I must run, literally....It is a pleasantly cool day outside...around 55 F, and I need to get some exercise before my final big meal of the weekend...too much GOOD eating these last few days...
[3:50 PM]Varda: Happy Easter!
[3:50 PM]Eönwë Valar: As much as I would like to sit here and quibble about elvish procreative strategies and their failures, I promised my mom a dinner out of the house and so I must bid a Happy Easter.
[3:50 PM]Varda: Enjoy the time!
[3:50 PM]Sandalf13: Thanks! Namarie all! Until next week, if not sooner!
[3:50 PM]Varda: oh wonderful! Hi to your Mom and Dracxil!
[3:51 PM]Eönwë Valar: I'll pass it on :}
[3:51 PM]Eönwë Valar: Take care, good night, sleep well, and have fun :}
[5:01 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Aiya! Catching up.
[5:01 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Also, bounder, not bouncer, right
[5:19 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Grats on the Wicker Pup, Arien! I love that little critter. I named mine Basket.
[5:19 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I did get it during BfA, but luckily not on a pvp server
[7:52 PM]Eönwë Valar: Ya know, I might just use the upcoming exp buff to play up my Mariposa a bit, just for a different view.
[7:57 PM]Eönwë Valar: Throw some butterflies at baddies, heh.
[8:36 PM]Eönwë Valar: The mining perk that spawns the extra little node for more ore sounds nice in theory, but in practice, I forget about it way too much, don't realize it until I see it on the minimap, and by the time I fly back tzo it it's gone, rendering it moot.
[10:58 PM]Eönwë Valar: Not related to anything, just thought it was hilarious, so have a laugh with Super Kami Guru: YouTube - Every Party Needs A Pooper - Lord Guru
[11:00 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Aiya, always a laugh with him
[11:01 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Well, had to sleep, my brain was turning to mush. Have a gaming report from me soon, after a quick Rumble session
[11:01 PM]Eönwë Valar: Rumble away :}
[11:38 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Personal gaming report:
[11:38 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: For (non)flashgaming, here's one that's actually been grabbing my attention all week!
[11:39 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Kongregate - City Idle is, while idle is in the name, not one that gives progress offline; rather, you set up your city and jobs and your citizens do the work while you have the game running in the background.
[11:41 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Goal is to develop your city from the prehistory age all the way to what seems the electricity age from the research tree, if that's a thing. Build houses and resource gatherers, placing lumber, berry bushes and stone around them, connect them with roads, and watch your population grow!
[11:42 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Give them water and food and they'll be happy enough, and then delve into the research, used by converting resources into research documents, which can then be used for major unlocks and/or smaller specific upgrades.
[11:44 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Major unlocks is how you get new buildings, features, advancing through the ages... and the upgrades make existing things more efficient. There's 40 achievements, 41 researches and 1724 (!) upgrades to get, and a neat percentage counter in the corner to tell you how far you are in total
[11:45 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Building layouts and researches/upgrades are your tasks, but when it comes to survival and resources, you can just sit back and watch your minions citizens scurry about the map, making it all happen
[11:48 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: There's also an autosave with 3 manual slots, and the game automatically goes into a background mode when unfocused for long enough, reducing cpu required but not halting the progress of your city. Very useful!
[11:49 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Blizzard gaming:
[11:55 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Hearthstone: Level 58 on the reward track now.
[11:56 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: New quest event coming up, called Defend Amirdrassil! Based on the final Dragonflight raid, I'm guessing.
[11:56 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Another one, so soon? No rest for the wicked!
[11:58 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Got enough gold for a new skin, and got Deepsea Morgl for the shaman. I like the Morgl the murloc skins for shaman, have been using them for some time, and Deepsea is a nice new twist
[11:58 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Well, I say new... it was originally part of the paid tavern pass for the Voyage to the Sunken City expansion, but it's new to me!
[April 21, 2025
[12:00 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Brawl is another oldy, Blood Magic. All spells cost health instead of mana. So I built a mage deck with spells that do more damage than they cost mana, including some powerful minion summons.
[12:00 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I took out one opponent on my first turn, and another I left at 2 health, leaving him unable to retaliate without killing himself. It doesn't always win, but it's good fun!
[12:02 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Warcraft Rumble: Straight up to level 59 from the xp patch, and then to 60 through quality upgrades!
[12:03 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: The 20% nerfed experience is nutty for me who's been keeping all his minis at roughly the same level when leveling. Almost every mini jumped a level, from the x/50000 level to the x/100000 level, though that's now x/90000.
[12:04 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: With the dungeon's army upgrades, that puts every mini who isn't of rare quality already - and I only have 4 below - at level 25 or higher.
[12:07 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: That almost trivializes the dungeon levels: in the horde week I finished getting Arthas through level 22, completing the dungeon, before the Arthas event ended. And in the beast week I've gotten Murk-Eye from 14 to 20 so far. From the looks of it, when your leader/army's 25, even the last 3 dungeon levels come in one package, which means you should be able to complete it from 20 to 22 at once, making it even easier!
[12:09 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Oh, and in the horde week I got Orgrim Doomhammer done too in the dungeon, completing all horde leaders
[12:10 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Managed to get some progress in the heroic sigil campaign as well, completing the Devilsaur Queen with alliance and horde. She's still a pain though, with constantly summoning raptors and automatically taking back towers at certain stages. Even at 2 levels higher I'm having trouble with all my Blackrock leaders, though I haven't actually customized their armies for the boss, so there's that.
[12:12 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: For quality upgrades, got 2 more minis to rare through the star tomes from the login event, the Warsong Raider and Darkspear Troll. Raider got his talent too, but the Troll is still waiting.
[12:12 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: That leaves 4 more minis to rarify, including 1 leader. Almost there!
[12:14 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: WoW:
[12:15 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: No raiding this week, because of people being busy with Easter.
[12:15 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Silly holidays getting in the way of gaming!
[12:15 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: (I did have a nice Easter brunch at my parents' place this morning, though, so that was nice).
[12:18 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: And with the weekly quest being world quests, which is basically the one weekly quest I'm not invested in, that gave me a lot of time to... well, catch up on sleep, to be honest.
[12:18 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Though I did do a few weekly events like the theater and Awakening the Machine, getting me to over 60000 gold - peanuts to some, but for me possibly the highest I've had since early Dragonflight.
[12:20 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: And of course delves! Continuing tier 9, getting Brann to level 62, and unlocking the green paint version of the Delver's Gob-Trotter mount through the delver's journey. As well as a new end-of-delve appearance that dropped: the Lucky Goblin's Strapped Rockets mog for cloak.
[12:21 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: That's the last customization for the mount, the final rewards for the journey are some toys and key-discounts.
[12:23 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: And next week, Noblegarden! Probably including a lot more of that duck boss in Elwynn
[12:24 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Also some new floral weapon appearances, by the looks of it. Should be good.
[12:27 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: And that's my report for the week!
[12:27 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Namarie
Thus ends this week's meeting. Come back and see us next week!