Meeting Minutes 12-15-2024

Sunday, December 15, 2024

5:00pm Eastern Time

Discord: Valar Guild/meeting_place

Before-Meeting

[4:00 PM]Varda: @Guild-friend @Bounder Valar Guild meeting time! Come on in and say hi to old friends!

Meeting Starts

Membership

[4:01 PM]Varda: Arien has the use of one arm and a microphone, but is still with us! She's improving.

[4:04 PM]Varda: Any other quick membership news? : ) Sightings of fellow Valarites?

Web

Gaming

[11:32 PM]Izzy: idk if anyone's mentioned it but the Return to Moria game is free this week on Epic

World of Warcraft:

[4:13 PM]Eönwë Valar: This week's Bonus Events: War Within Dungeons (don't forget Heroics count now) and Classic Timewalking.

[4:13 PM]Eönwë Valar: Patch 11.0.7 is coming Tuesday, December 17th. Check out the patch notes.

[4:14 PM]Eönwë Valar: Molten Core and Onyxia's Lair are now available on the 20th Anniversary realms.

Diablo IV:

Warcraft Rumble:

Diablo Immortal:

Overwatch 2:

Heroes of the Storm:

Lord of the Rings Online:

[4:20 PM]Varda: If you get to do the Storvagun the Giant instance with 5 other people on Tier 2, ten times, you get some nice tokens for nice stuff. : )

[4:21 PM]Varda: Lord of the Rings Online: Valarites who showed up in kin branches this past week were:

[4:22 PM]Varda: Fangorn and I have been duoing the missions in Iridir (new area) and trying to survive ever-higher tiers for "fun". What is this, a game?

Starcraft 2:

[4:22 PM]Varda: The usual suspects that I know of (and others that I don't): Fangorn, Eowyn, Floppa, Faramir.

[4:24 PM]Varda: Any requests, suggestions, need of invitations on some branch or other while officers are convenient for you?

Tolkien

[4:27 PM]Varda: How does JRRT use build-up in the Lord of the Rings books? As long as the books are, they keep interest as everything keeps escalating. What are some examples?

[4:29 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: An example is the geography. The first two chapters are very localized, then there's a few in great detail through the Shire and the Old Forest, and the distance covered per chapter seems to get bigger and bigger after Rivendell.

[4:30 PM]Varda: The hobbits move out into the wide world, farther than they've ever gone before.

[4:31 PM]Eönwë Valar: After a while, every step is the furthest Sam's ever been from the Shire.... (edited)

[4:31 PM]Sandalf13: Tolkien has various characters dropping hints and ideas all over the place, that one does not even realize reading through the LoTR the first time. Only after you have read it two or more times, do you begin to see all the hints that Tolkien keeps dropping...especially in the Fellowship.

[4:32 PM]Arien Valar: also story telling ...Gandalf telling the story of the ring ..he stops over night before contining

[4:33 PM]Varda: Frodo's job goes from getting the Ring to Gandalf in Bree, to taking it to Rivendell, to taking it to Mordor.

[4:34 PM]Sandalf13: Even Barliman Butterbur drops a few hints when he talks about the Rangers....strange folks, those...they can talk to animals, and so on.

[4:35 PM]Arien Valar: also Aragorn telling the stort of Beren and Luthien .it isto calm the characters but the reader kind of knowsthat something is going to happen

[4:36 PM]Varda: The Nine start off as a single scary rider, move up to three, and join up as nine just as Frodo and friends cross the water on a ferry. Frodo and friends know that the Riders will cross the water farther down, meaning their escape will continue as a chase with even more after them. The Nine Riders move up to being the Winged Nazgul that can show up nearly anywhere.

[4:39 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Gandalf escalates as well! Introduced to us as a conjurer with fireworks and toys, we soon get a glimpse that he is quite a bit more. His magic becomes more practical from Rivendell to Moria, then he has an unexpected duel, and when we see him again he's even more powerful... first mostly in the art of persuasion, but by the time of Minas Tirith he's a good fighter as well. Or is that just the movie?

[4:40 PM]Pengolodh: In respect of Return to Moria (free from epic this month), I have played the game. I give it a solid 7/10. If you have played Valhelm, then it's pretty much the same game. It's a high-commitment game, but it is primarily a building/resources style game. It is best to play with friends, as it can be a very lonesome at times but maybe that is just me.

[4:41 PM]Varda: Gandalf becomes a fun guy with the hobbit celebrations to the terribly powerful White Wizard by the ending.

[4:41 PM]Pengolodh: yep! Valhelm has an element of this.. but because its Outside and not inside a mountain.. you dont feel it as much.. ! But Moria will give you that feeling.

[4:41 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: googles Survival, eh? Not really my thing, but they are popular.

[Gandalf escalates as well! Introduced to us as a conjurer with fireworks and toys, we soon get a glimpse that he is quite a bit more. His magic becomes more practical from Rivendell to Moria, then he has an unexpected duel, and when we see him again he's even more powerful... first mostly in the art of persuasion, but by the time of Minas Tirith he's a good fighter as well. Or is that just the movie?

[4:43 PM]Pengolodh: because of the movies.. it has my warped my idea of gandalf a bit in respect of fighting ability.

[4:45 PM]Arien Valar: duel where sarumasn staysvictoriousfirst suggesting he is more powerful

[4:45 PM]Sandalf13: I wonder where Gandalf (and possibly some of the other Istari) got their sword training...was it a requirement before their dispatch to Middle-earth? Did they pick it up as a skill once they found themselves in Middle-earth?

[4:46 PM]Varda: Saruman when imprisoning Gandalf was still head of the order and had surprise on his side. Gandalf was not yet the White with added power from the Valar.

[4:46 PM]Pengolodh: That is a question I have never seen asked before.. saruman.. in his current multicolor state... could he have taken on the balrog? i cant remember off hand..! Was his powers diminishing that much before his staff was taken from him?

[4:47 PM]Varda: Saruman's power was being siphoned off into his projects as he became multi-colored, aye.

[4:47 PM]Sandalf13: I think that Gandalf's successful flight from Orthanc was the beginning of the end of Saruman's power...

[4:48 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I suspect Gandalf also used some power from his Ring to fight the Balrog. Something about fighting fire with fire.

[4:49 PM]Sandalf13: Maybe he even knew the Balrog as an old drinking buddy, back in the days before Morgoth corrupted them....

[Saruman's power was being siphoned off into his projects as he became multi-colored, aye.

[4:49 PM]Pengolodh: So you suspect he was giving up life force? or he was binding himself to his creations..? Like, are we talking Melkor style where his power his given to something and it cant be restored?

[4:49 PM]Varda: Have to wonder how those old-time relationships may have affected the battles.

[4:50 PM]Varda: The siphon thing seemed to be common for the bad guys. Not mentioned for the good guys.

[4:50 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Gandalf in Fangorn: "I can't die and go back to Valinor yet! Sauron still owes me 10 bucks from back in the day!"

[4:51 PM]Arien Valar: @ pengolodh i think so ..at leastlifeforce if not power in itself

[4:51 PM]Sandalf13: It all reminds me of a favorite saying of my Father's, that I believe is apropos. He often said the "the heart is unlimited in its ability to love, but is so limited in its ability to hate." Sort of the same idea, heh?

[4:52 PM]Sandalf13: Perhaps in Eru's world, power for good can only wax greater, while power for evil is doomed to diminish.

[4:53 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: It's also a measure of control. The bad guys were forced to put their essences into stuff so they could have a direct stake in controlling it.

[4:53 PM]Varda: Bribe of power, to the minions, in a bid to increase the area of effect.

[4:53 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: The good guys don't need to exert that control in such fashion.

[4:54 PM]Sandalf13: Good seems to spring forth on its own, while evil needs to be tended.

[4:54 PM]Varda: Love of the same goal or of the person means a bribe is not needed to go for the same goal.

[4:56 PM]Pengolodh: Id dare say sauron found the loophole with the ring.. even if he over stretched and give too much of himself away, the ring allowed him to restore

[4:57 PM]Varda: That's an interesting thought. How could they restore after giving away a part of their power?

[4:57 PM]Eönwë Valar: Tolkien does have a discussion on that in HoME: to exert control on the physical world you do have to invest something into it, and in doing so disperse your power, which comes with risks. Only the villains tend to seek that level of control. If left to itself, the marring Morgoth et al do will heal, because that is the nature of Ea.

[4:58 PM]Pengolodh: but with the healing.. does that mean, what morgoth gave away would return to him? (edited)

[4:58 PM]Pengolodh: in my mind.. i saw this really diminished version of melkor fighting ..

[4:59 PM]Sandalf13: Can we be sure that Morgoth too will be healed one day? THat is really s-t-r-e-t--c-h-i-n-g the imagination, though not impossible, given Eru's proclivities.

[5:00 PM]Pengolodh: well.. I dont see why he would be punished forever.. he was following Eru's plan even though he didnt think he was..!

[5:00 PM]Eönwë Valar: The difference between Morgoth and Sauron is that that there's still enough Melkor in Morgoth to pull himself away from forever gnawing at his failures to heal. Sauron's fallen too low for that. @Varda After the old Arda passes away, all will be made right.

[5:01 PM]Pengolodh: Does that mean... melkor will be taken off the chess board.. ! Or are we talking about a complete Ainur Reset.

[5:01 PM]Eönwë Valar: There's a difference between "following a plan" and "making use of someone else's stupid decisions to keep the plan moving forward."

[5:02 PM]Pengolodh: I only say this..! because.. to avoid the same mistakes again in Arda 2.0.. ! can Eru afford to have the same players on the board.

[5:04 PM]Eönwë Valar: It's said "the Song will be sung anew, and all will know their part". It's questionable whether that "all" includes the likes of Melkor.

[5:04 PM]Pengolodh: especially if the End battle is melkor being used as a the kicking boy

[5:05 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: All will know their part... and Melkor's part is "punching bag"?

[5:05 PM]Varda: I was thinking we had an article on it, but not finding one. I have to bug out for a short time. But hope to return

[5:05 PM]Eönwë Valar: We all assume it'd be Eru keeping him out, but we don't consider that it's more likely that Melkor and Sauron are putting themselves through their own personal hells because they, in their pride, refuse to pull themselves away from all their failed machinations and attempts at control.

After-Meeting

[5:08 PM]Sandalf13: Why not? They have just as much a stake in this as any of us mere mortals!

[5:08 PM]Eönwë Valar: Tolkien actually talks about Melkor still having the chance to heal because "he retains the relics of wisdom".

[5:09 PM]Sandalf13: I think that Eonwe is on to something, as usual...If this is the case, however, I cannot see even Sauron becoming completely irredeemable.

[5:09 PM]Eönwë Valar: *It's in one of his letters, which of course I don't have at hand right now, heh.

[5:10 PM]Sandalf13: If you remember the letter, please do provide a reference to it!

[5:11 PM]Eönwë Valar: In that same letter, he says Sauron's fallen too low to pull himself away from constantly gnawing at himself over his failures. Essentially, he can't heal because he won't let himself.

[5:13 PM]Eönwë Valar: Will do. I'll see if I can excavate my copy of the book later tonight.

[5:19 PM]Sandalf13: I must away...need to get to the stores before the close...harder to get in and out with this holiday shopping. Will check back in later for Ar's report. Namarie, y'all!

[5:35 PM]Eönwë Valar: I must be off. Take care all, good night, sleep well, and have fun.

[5:36 PM]Eönwë Valar: And for WoW players, don't forget to not trade in crests until Tuesday.

[11:29 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: One of my favorite tower defense/upgrade games on the site back in the day. Defend your gems from incoming waves of enemies coming down the road, by placing towers next to it and upgrading them.

[11:30 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: There's 3 different towers, focusing on fire, archery and frost, each with different upgrade paths you can go through for each individual tower you place, though what you have access to is staggered through the campaign.

[11:32 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: And on top of that you get experience per match, allowing you to unlock permanent upgrades along 3 upgrade paths in the skill tree, focusing mostly on the specific 3 tower types, but also with general upgrades for your resources and all towers in general.

[11:33 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Try to get enough upgrades to beat every level with the highest rating, and don't forget you get spells as well Meteor especially is good against ninjas!

[11:34 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Oh, almost forgot, all the maps have 3 different terrain types on them, and each type can hold one type of tower. So you also have to think about which areas you focus on!

[11:43 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Hearthstone: Level 68 on the reward track now. Got enough gold along the way to buy a new hero skin, and there were 2 up: Ice Lord Malfurion for druid and Ice Lady Tyrande for priest. Winter Veil themed I'm sure

[11:43 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I chose Tyrande, since she seemed to fit the theme better.

[11:44 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Quest event is now going, and as expected it focuses on battlegrounds, but also presents standard ranked games as an alternative.

[11:45 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: And the quests are massive: Daily quests involve playing 50 minis, though certain types count twice; the weekly was playing 30 battlegrounds or standard games, with wins counting twice.

[11:46 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I've been doing a bit of both; battlegrounds are good for the minion count, but standard games are rather faster. But since all my decks are for wild ranked rather than standard, I just decided to let the AI build a standard deck for me and see if I could win any. Not a lot, but it'll do

[11:47 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Next two weekly quests are also quite big, and looking at them I suspect one will be good for battlegrounds and the other for ranked.

[11:48 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Anyway, brawl this week is Cloneball! You get a random deck filled with random legendary minions, each cloned 4 times. You also get the occasional extra card to make one of the legendaries and all its clones 3 mana cheaper for the rest of the game. Combined with the randomness of which legendaries you get, things can go crazy

[11:50 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Oh, and I got Death Knight to level 51 as well! 9 to go.

[11:50 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Warcraft Rumble: No new collection level, it seems to have settled down to its normal pace again.

[11:53 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: The Winter Veil event is still going, but we're ín the second phase now, with a new reward track around the new undead/beast leader Anub'arak. The christmas tree quests are still going, though the minis summoned by the gifts are now larger tigers and frost giants rather than spiderlings and earth elementals. They're rarer, but more powerful, which means some more luck is involved concerning whether you get them and whether the enemy AI gets them.

[11:54 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: New leader is pretty fun, summoning flying scarabs for every mini you play, and again when they die. Combine that with cheap swarmers like the angry chickens and you can get a lot of scarabs, though only 12 at a time can be on the map.

[11:56 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Some powerful talents too, including one where the scarabs explode on death December 16, 2024

[12:10 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: And most importantly, Rumble now has a PC client! I was playing the mobile client on PC through a program called Bluestacks, but the new client is so much better. It's smoother, a lot less loading, and a lot bigger viewscreen.

[12:10 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: It also supports keyboard use, which is a bit getting used to, but you can also just play with just the mouse.

[12:11 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: It also means more of our WoW team are coming back to play, and we're getting better progress to our guild war chest rewards

[12:42 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: In the dungeon, I got Jaina through level 21 in alliance week, though no luck with 22. In beast week, I'm having trouble with 21 on Hogger. But it really does feel like a matter of time, and maybe just a few more levels.

[12:43 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: In the heroic sigil campaign, I cleared Reak with all remaining families, and Grimongous with all families. A bit tricky, but I didn't need to change my decks for that one; it's important to grab a tower and reach the boss to distract him, since he only rolls boulders down the paths when he's not being attacked.

[12:44 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: This puts me at 128 sigils, and I wonder what the next boss will be like

[12:47 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: As for quality upgrades, while I got Anub'arak, he's still a few stars short of uncommon quality. Should happen easily next week. I did get the leader Maiev and the Moonkin mini to rare, as well as the talents for Eclipse and Grom Hellscream.

[12:49 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: WoW: Still a bit of raiding this last week, getting our first attempts into the platform phase of heroic Queen Ansurek. But now we're going on break for the holidays, no more raiding until january. Should give me some time to work on anniversary stuff and winter veil stuff, and hopefully some Diablo 4

[12:50 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Weeklies are more classic timewalking and 4 heroic or mythic dungeons. For the latter I'm going back to my favorite, Mists of Tirna Scithe

[12:54 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: For the anniversary, I'm almost done with logging all my alts for the feat, just a few off-server ones to go. For the worldbosses, I finally got the last mail piece from Emeriss, which means that after so many years, the only piece missing is now cloth boots from Taerar. Almost there! And now the hardest green dragon is done

[12:56 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Finally, delves! Did a few of those. I got Brann to 49, and enough undercoins to buy the last hatpiece, the Coral Nautic Helm, and one of the remaining toys, Pileus Delight, turning you into a fungarian.

[12:58 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I'm almost done with enough undercoins to get all the cosmetics now, so I'm not too worried about doing a lot more Delves from here on. Technically I'd only need to do one more if I do it next reset, since the first one will give a weekly quest that grants a lot of coins. But I'm also still slowly upgrading my gear to prepare for getting them all done on tier 11 difficulty. 621 ilevel in tankgear now, which should just about be enough.

[12:59 AM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Or at least as close to it as I'm reasonably going to get

[In that same letter, he says Sauron's fallen too low to pull himself away from constantly gnawing at himself over his failures. Essentially, he can't heal because he won't let himself.

[7:58 PM]Eönwë Valar: OK, so didn't find the Letter I was looking for, but here's Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed", that gives what I was referring to anyway: "The Elves certainly held and taught that fëar or 'spirits' may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt or healed, be diminished and renewed.

[8:00 PM]Eönwë Valar: The dark spirit of Melkor's 'remainder' might be expected, therefore, eventually and after long ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power. It would do this (even if Sauron could not) because of its relative greatness. It did not repent, or turn finally away from obsession, but retained still relics of wisdom, so that it could still seek its object indirectly, and not merely blindly.

[8:02 PM]Eönwë Valar: It would rest, seek to heal itself, distract itself by other thoughts and desires and devices — but all simply to recover enough strength to return to the attackon the Valar, and to its old obsession."

[8:09 PM]Eönwë Valar: And Note 11: "If they do not sink below a certain level. Since no fëa can be a annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, it is no

[t] clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a 'wicked' spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it cannot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire."

[4:42 PM]Varda: The orcs made from elves or humans or having human added back into them like the Uruk-hai of Saruman, may have a fea that is not totally degraded, so maybe if the body is killed early, then such an orc could have a chance of going to Mandos, maybe?

[4:42 PM]Varda: But if the fea is degraded so much that hardly anything can be given to the offspring, then the offspring or grand-offspring may not have enough fea to handle the corruption. We know Feanor was given most of the strength of his mother's fea, so that is where I get that thought of what is passed on.

[5:12 PM]Eönwë Valar: I think we need to clarify some things here, so there's no mistaking what we're talking about.

[5:15 PM]Eönwë Valar: I'll start by commenting on Elvish ideas of pregancy and development. If memory serves as it should, this info comes from Nature of MIddle-Earth, but is also more lightly touched on in Morgoth's Ring under my favorite section, "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar".

[5:17 PM]Eönwë Valar: Put simply, Elves believe it's important for both parents to be together during pregnancy and the early years of rearing children. During pregancy, while nourishment of the hröa (body) is from the mother, Elves hold that nourishment of the infant's fëa comes from both parents. They consider it rather bad if parents can't be together during this time.

[5:24 PM]Eönwë Valar: It might sound pedantic, but as phrased above it sounds like the strength of Miriel's fëa was transferred to Fëanor. It's important to understand that's not the case. As Miriel herself says "... strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Fëanor." It's not that she passed any sort of spiritual strength onto him per se, it's that the nourishing power that could've been spent on many instead was spent on him. So much so that she deemed according to the understanding of Elves in such matters, she wouldn't likely recover that strength to bear more children (refer to my earlier quotes on the growth and healing of fëar).

[5:29 PM]Eönwë Valar: So going on from there, and in accordance with my earlier quotes. It's not that orcs are getting some fraction of a soul from their parents or anything like that. They have their own full soul just like any other rational incarnate. However, orc spirits could probably be considered malnourished inasmuch as there is any Elvish strain by which to judge such things.

[5:31 PM]Eönwë Valar: Also, I believe in the aforementioned Morgoth's RIng, in one of the discussions on Orcs/ Orc fëar, it's said they go to Mandos and he keeps them locked up until The End. Another place posits Orc spirits would be poltergeists.

[6:01 PM]Eönwë Valar: Before I forget: MP. The quote I was really looking for uses the words "infinitely recessive" but I couldn't find that one in haste. If I do come across it though I'll try to remember to give that one, but it'll more or less cover the same ground covered by the quotes I did give.

[6:06 PM]Eönwë Valar: I'm not 100% this is the spot I was thinking of, but it is a bit of a 2-for-1 since it also covers the "poltergeist" comment. Link to me quoting it back in September: meeting_place Sept 30, 2024 12:31AM, in Meeting Minutes 09-29-2024. (Ainur having children.)

[2:16 AM]Eönwë Valar: Well, good news is my Paladin is now in all hero gear. Got last piece from the vault. Bad news is all my crests collected last week only got me enough gilded for 1 upgrade. Oh well.

[6:29 AM]Eönwë Valar: Darn Blizzard and their constantly giving us in-game scraps of lore to take up our bag space. They need to hurry up and just give us a lorebook in-game to collect all of this stuff in once we find it.

[3:35 PM]Varda: Hmmm. We're not going to make a web page for that by any chance? eek!

[4:12 PM]Eönwë Valar: There's WoWpedia (if it still gets updated) or Wowhead to find out what the stuff says usually, but it's annoying to have in-game space taken up by it. We get so many of these little scraps of "paper" and outright "books" that we can't possibly keep them all, or remember they exist to peruse the internet for them later.

[4:13 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Actually, wowpedia is now warcraftwiki. Wowpedia itself is outdated.

Valar Guild Meeting Minutes