Sunday, June 6, 2024
5:00pm Eastern Time
Discord: Valar Guild/meeting_place
Attending (7): Arien, Ar-Pharazon, Eonwe, Pallando, Sandalf, Shelob/Ungwetari, Varda (presiding)
Topic: The Nordic and Christian ideas Tolkien used may have come together in "bravery against all odds". Comments?
(Note: Lots! of fun chat between meetings, so this transcript has to start on meeting day.)
[3:46 PM]Varda: 15 minutes : )
[3:58 PM]Sandalf13: Aiya All!!!
[3:58 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Aiya!
[3:58 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: all!
[3:58 PM]Sandalf13: How are you, Ar?
[3:59 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Good, same as usual
[3:59 PM]Sandalf13: Good Good!
[4:00 PM]Varda: Aiya
[4:00 PM]Varda: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
[4:00 PM]Varda: Membership:
[4:01 PM]Varda: @Bounder @Guild-friend Aiya! Valar Guild meeting time! Come say hi.
[4:01 PM]Varda: Aiya Phar and Sandalf : )
[4:01 PM]Sandalf13: Aiya Varda!
[4:01 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Aiya
[4:01 PM]Varda: Eonwe hopes to be here for the meeting today.
[4:02 PM]Pallando-Valar: Aiya
[4:02 PM]Varda: According to my clock, my aiya was right on the hour. Is that the same on yours?
[4:02 PM]Sandalf13: Aiya Pallando
[4:02 PM]Varda: Aiya Pallando
[4:02 PM]Eönwë Valar: Eonwë has fullfilled his hopes.
[4:02 PM]Sandalf13: Aiya Eonwe
[4:02 PM]Varda: Huzzah! Aiya Eonwe : )
[4:02 PM]Eönwë Valar: Heya all.
[4:02 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Poked Arien, but she's shown as away on battle.net.
[4:02 PM]Varda: Thank you, Phar : )
[4:02 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Aiya Pallando and Eonwe!
[4:03 PM]Varda: Pallando, were you trying to say something? : )
[4:05 PM]Varda: I keep seeing the message that Pallando is typing.
[4:05 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Typing something very long perhaps!
[4:05 PM]Sandalf13: It is a screed.
[4:05 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Ah, confirmation from Arien
[4:06 PM]Eönwë Valar: If it starts with "When in the course of human events" I think I've heard that one before.
[4:07 PM]Varda: heh
[4:07 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: In a hole in the ground...
[4:07 PM]Pallando-Valar: Sorry, was writing the game news for Eve.
[4:07 PM]Varda: Nice. Did you want to hold it for the Gaming section?
[4:08 PM]Pallando-Valar: Yeah, just typing it up now.
[4:08 PM]Varda: Aiya Arien : )
[4:08 PM]Arien Valar: Aiya all I am on a shortish flyby today .. early start tomorrow
[4:08 PM]Sandalf13: Aiya Arien!
[4:08 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Aiya Arien
[4:08 PM]Varda: Glad you could zoom by!
[4:08 PM]Varda: Web:
[4:08 PM]Varda: We have a new story!
[4:09 PM]Varda: Thank you to Eonwe for a new short story in his Narn I Auros series:
[4:09 PM]Varda: To Show One's Quality
[4:09 PM]Varda: Enjoy!
[4:10 PM]Varda: Gaming:
[4:11 PM]Varda: Pallando, if you're ready, go ahead with Eve. : )
[4:11 PM]Pallando-Valar: The patch notes for Equinox dropped on Friday. In addition to the previously announced things (sov changes, moon drills, new haulers, skinr, corp projects updates) of which we got more details, there's also:
[4:11 PM]Varda: Oh wow.
[4:13 PM]Pallando-Valar: that's it.
[4:13 PM]Varda: Thank you, o Blue Wizard.
[4:13 PM]Varda: No more of those ship hulls, huh? Ok, onwards. : )
[4:14 PM]Varda: 2 million base damage...
[4:15 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Power inflation?
[4:15 PM]Varda: Eonwe, Gaming to you, when ready.
[4:15 PM]Eönwë Valar: Thanks.
@Ar-Pharazon-V
Power inflation?
[4:16 PM]Pallando-Valar: yeah, pretty much. cap ships have way more hp than they used to, with new ships in particular inflating ehp.
[4:16 PM]Pallando-Valar: so to make them still doomsday-y they had to bump the damage
[4:18 PM]Eönwë Valar: World of Warcraft:
[4:18 PM]Eönwë Valar: This week's bonus events: Cataclysm Timewalking.
[This week's PvP Brawl: Deepwind Dunk.
[4:19 PM]Eönwë Valar: A new short story is out: "The Goblin Way".
[4:19 PM]Eönwë Valar: With the War Within beta now going, here's a few blogs out upcoming features:
[4:20 PM]Eönwë Valar: --- The announcement the beta is going
[4:20 PM]Eönwë Valar: Take to the Skies with Skyriding using new flight mechanics.
[4:21 PM]Eönwë Valar: Uncover the Secrets of Delves in The War Within
[4:21 PM]Eönwë Valar: Meet the Earthen, A New Playable Allied Race
[4:21 PM]Varda: Delves, eh?
[4:21 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: For an example of earthen designs, check my preliminary design in screenshots
[4:22 PM]Eönwë Valar: Yeah, 1-5 player content.
[4:22 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: We'll try not to delve too deep.
[4:22 PM]Eönwë Valar: Sounds like what you're familiar with in LotRO, though I haven't tried those yet either.
[4:24 PM]Eönwë Valar: They had a similar one-off experience in a previous expansion that I can't remember right now.
[4:25 PM]Eönwë Valar: Then they had Torghast in Shadowlands, but that one didn't offer any power-related rewards.
[4:26 PM]Eönwë Valar: This one promises to offer "endgame gear" so we'll see how "endgame" it is.
[4:26 PM]Eönwë Valar: Check out This Week in WoW.
[4:27 PM]Eönwë Valar: Check out this week's hotfixes.
[4:27 PM]Eönwë Valar: Diablo 4:
[4:27 PM]Eönwë Valar: A new patch is planned but no current ETA is given. You can still read the patch notes.
[4:27 PM]Eönwë Valar: Lord of the Rings Online:
[4:28 PM]Eönwë Valar: Update 40.1 is out.
[4:28 PM]Eönwë Valar: Two festivals are running right now through June 25th: Midsummer and Yuletide.
[4:28 PM]Varda: Going to run us to death, hah.
[4:28 PM]Eönwë Valar: I linked it in Harbor, but I'll link it again here: YouTube: Rookie Of The Year - Hot Ice Scene (The 3 R's)
[4:30 PM]Varda: Fangorn and I have been trying to knock out a mass of the underground quests. Maybe we have enough done for some festival time.
[4:30 PM]Eönwë Valar: Nothing new to share in my jaunt through MoP Remix. Got my necklace but the real fun (my solo running) hasn't progressed past the bosses I'm stuck on due to multiplayer mechanics yet.
[4:30 PM]Varda: Hot + Ice = water
Link to LotRO gamer list for the week.
[4:30 PM]Arien Valar: Right then flashes rays
[4:31 PM]Arien Valar: I fear i have to sail away :?
[4:31 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: puts some ice under Arien's rays
[4:31 PM]Eönwë Valar: Is that a question? We're not making you sail away :}
[4:31 PM]Varda: Thank you for gracing us with sunlight while you could! Namarie for now.
[4:32 PM]Eönwë Valar: Sleep well Arien :}
[4:32 PM]Arien Valar: well i know .. unfortunately my work is :/
[4:32 PM]Arien Valar: Namarie have fun and i ll read up laters
[4:32 PM]Sandalf13: Enya Orinoco...sail away, sail away, sail away....
[4:32 PM]Eönwë Valar: That's it for my gaming news
[4:32 PM]Sandalf13: Namarie Arien!
[4:32 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Namarie
[4:33 PM]Eönwë Valar: YouTube: Celtic Woman -- Orinoco Flow
[4:33 PM]Eönwë Valar: There's Celtic Woman singing it.
[4:34 PM]Sandalf13: Or "Come Sail Away" by Styx?
[4:35 PM]Eönwë Valar: YouTube: Styx - Come Sail Away
[4:36 PM]Eönwë Valar: Any more requests? :} lol
[4:36 PM]Varda: Thank you for the gaming news and music : )
[4:36 PM]Varda: With all that background music, on to
[4:36 PM]Varda: Tolkien!
[4:36 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Was thinking "Sail" but can't decide between the official video, or the other one with more views....
[4:37 PM]Eönwë Valar: YouTube: Gilligan's Island Theme Song
[4:37 PM]Varda: Besides sailing, here's another potential topic:
[4:38 PM]Varda: The Nordic and Christian ideas Tolkien used may have come together in "bravery against all odds". Comments?
[4:38 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: A fool's hope, as some might call it... but if you're gonna die anyway, might as well go out fighting and hope for the best!
[4:38 PM]Varda: Brave sailing for combo topic, if you like. ; )
[4:39 PM]Eönwë Valar: "Bravery against all odds" would be fitting.
[4:39 PM]Varda: Bravery to try to push forward what needs to be done.
[4:40 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Because nobody else will, or can.
[4:40 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Or someone else is also pushing forward and you're going to stand beside them!
[4:41 PM]Varda: Pushing together!
[4:41 PM]Varda: Carry the other when he can no longer move.
[4:41 PM]Eönwë Valar: Because that's what makes you "that guy."
[4:41 PM]Varda: Aye!
[4:41 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V:
[4:42 PM]Varda: waits for the Bruce Willis clip
[4:43 PM]Eönwë Valar: If you insist :} : YouTube: "That's what makes you that guy" - Live Free or Die Hard
[4:43 PM]Varda: Thanks! : )
[4:43 PM]Varda: Had to get it out of our systems.
[4:43 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I don't wanna be that guy.
[4:44 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: "I Wanna Be the Guy: The Movie: The Game, commonly called I Wanna Be the Guy and abbreviated to IWBTG, is a freeware platform game created by Michael "Kayin" O'Reilly for Microsoft Windows using Multimedia Fusion 2. First released on October 5, 2007, the game is no longer in active development..."
[4:44 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I wanna be the guy
[4:44 PM]Sandalf13: Which guy, exactly?
[4:45 PM]Varda: I'd go with Boromir showing both the Nordic and Christian ideas of bravery against impossible odds for a great cause.
[4:46 PM]Sandalf13: During the 1973 Arab-Israeli war in the Med, my ship was on 24 hour refueling duty in the eastern Med. I remember seeing armed Russian jets flying over, and I also remember a strange, very strange, sense of acceptance, that if this was it, it was OK.
[4:47 PM]Eönwë Valar: Boromir's death scene shows Repentance, Forgiveness and Redemption as well.
[4:49 PM]Eönwë Valar: Death in glorious battle would probably be the Nordic part of that. He made quite a last stand.
[4:50 PM]Ungwetari: Fair evening to you, my fellow Tolkienites!
[4:51 PM]Eönwë Valar: Good morrow.
[4:51 PM]Sandalf13: Aiia Ungwetari!
[4:51 PM]Sandalf13: Aiya!
[4:52 PM]Varda: Aiya Shelob : )
[4:52 PM]Eönwë Valar: Or it would be about 10 hours ago or 14 hours from now, heh.
[4:52 PM]Varda: Topic: The Nordic and Christian ideas Tolkien used may have come together in "bravery against all odds". Comments?
[4:53 PM]Varda: Bravery against all odds is all over Tolkien's works.
[4:54 PM]Varda: We should be able to suggest a few more and take a look at them.
[4:54 PM]Sandalf13: When you get right down to it, what else can one do? Whining against one's fate is pointless and stupid, fleeing is even worse, so standing up and accepting one's fate is the ultimate good deed, in this case.
[4:54 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Aiya!
[4:55 PM]Varda: Run. Cower. Die without fighting back. Let the other die without trying to stop it.
[4:55 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: There's something to be said for running and waiting. Plenty of wars and disasters that end with the survivors crawling out of their homes and recovering.
@Eönwë Valar
Or it would be about 10 hours ago or 14 hours from now, heh.
[4:55 PM]Ungwetari: Actually, 5 minutes from now, so you're pretty much spot on
[4:55 PM]Varda: Smart strategic withdrawal is not the same thing, aye.
[4:55 PM]Eönwë Valar: This'll probably sound funny and it is so I'll go with it: Sam having what, 11 kids? He and Rosie were outnumbered.
[4:56 PM]Varda: hehee. Helps being bigger and more experienced.
[4:57 PM]Ungwetari: Frodo against the entirety of Mordor comes to mind. Luckily Sam was there to even the odds. 11 kids? Piffle.
[4:57 PM]Varda: : )
[4:57 PM]Eönwë Valar: Excuse me, 13 kids. Someone didn't tell them that's an unlucky number. They needed to have a 14th.
[4:58 PM]Eönwë Valar: Then they would've had a Hobbit mission to Erebor ready to go.
[4:58 PM]Sandalf13: There was no strategic retreat possible for Boromir..he was surrounded by tens of orcs, and hopelessly outnumbered...he did indeed redeem himself at the cost of his life.
[4:58 PM]Ungwetari: That changes things. That's definitely more against the odds than Mordor.
[4:58 PM]Varda: Boromir could have hidden back in the forest instead of charging out.
[4:59 PM]Varda: But aye, be tough to hide. Maybe hop in one of the boats a short way before portaging around Rauros Falls.
[4:59 PM]Eönwë Valar: Boromir as a lone man might've escaped, but at what cost? His Pride, his Dignity, his Integrity. He was too good a man to pay that price for a small chance to live another day.
[5:00 PM]Ungwetari: Here's a bit of a philosophical question... Is it truly valor if Boromir believed it was the only thing he could do to repay for his earlier shameful actions? Or does it therefore become even more of an act of valor?
[5:00 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: As in, he didn't think he had a choice?
[5:01 PM]Eönwë Valar: The Fellowship needed him. Merry and Pippin needed him. He answered the call.
[5:01 PM]Ungwetari: It kind of does tie in with Eonwë's last comment. He was too good a man not too feel the need for redemption
[5:02 PM]Eönwë Valar: Knowing what needs to be done doesn't make it easier to do.
[5:02 PM]Sandalf13: But simply stepping up to do what needs to be done is often a mark of valor...
[5:03 PM]Varda: "stepping up" is the key phrase there.
[5:03 PM]Eönwë Valar: I don't think he went into that fight planning to die. He's been in enough fights where his life was on the line. He knew it was possible. He did it anyway.
[5:04 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: To be fair, entering a fight thinking there's no way you're going to die, is how you get killed.
[5:05 PM]Eönwë Valar: If he could've saved Merry and Pippin and walked away alive, he would've been happier with that, but he knew he had to save them.
[5:07 PM]Varda: Boromir could also have laid down and let himself die instead of continuing to fight full of arrows.
[5:07 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Not sure if that's valor or just stubbornness and anger.
[5:07 PM]Eönwë Valar: Aye, if it were about his death being his redemption, he could've done that. "Well, I tried."
[5:07 PM]Eönwë Valar: Or all of them, Phar.
[5:07 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Either way, he didn't have anything to lose.
[5:08 PM]Varda: So, might as well be valiant. Beats the alternative. : )
[5:08 PM]Eönwë Valar: "If you want me dead, you're going to work for it."
[5:08 PM]Varda: What Eonwe said!
[5:08 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: At least I'm taking you lot with me!
[5:08 PM]Varda: Right on.
[5:08 PM]Varda: We have reached the hour.
[5:09 PM]Varda: the gavel leaps from the high shelf onto the hammerpad far below
[5:09 PM]Varda: thwock!
[5:09 PM]Varda: After-meeting!
[5:09 PM]Sandalf13: That is a measure of acceptance...I am probably not going to survive this, but I will take out as many of you (orcs) as I can before I go....
[5:09 PM]Varda: Free chat, even about the topic.
[5:09 PM]Varda: Aye, Sandalf
[5:11 PM]Sandalf13: Interesting, the topic that was selected for this afternoon...I spent the afternoon at the Boulder Street Festival in a booth for the JWV, and represented the group to the general public. Shared some military history stories, both personal and historical...a few other Vets were there with me...
[5:11 PM]Eönwë Valar: I'll say one more thing on the topic:
[5:12 PM]Varda: Right down Sandalf's alley.
[5:15 PM]Eönwë Valar: If we're going to rule out valor because Boromir "didn't have a choice" I'd say many soldiers go into a fight deciding they "don't have a choice": that they have to fight the fight "here" so it doesn't have to be fought at home.
[5:16 PM]Varda: That is valor.
[5:16 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: That's true. But it's still a choice. Just not a very good one.
[5:17 PM]Eönwë Valar: And Boromir had a choice too. Both are deciding the alternative is worse than facing it.
[5:17 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: True.
[5:18 PM]Varda: To do what one sees needs to be done rather than shirking, that is valor.
[5:18 PM]Ungwetari: There's always some kind of choice involved. Usually it's between two otherwise unbearable alternatives that makes it look like "no choice".
[5:19 PM]Sandalf13: This all seems somewhat apropos of the comment that Aragorn made to Eowyn before they parted just before the Paths of the Dead...Aragorn said that deeds are no less valorous because no one remembers them, or sings of them in song...at some point, just doing the right thing at a certain point in time is valorous, choice or no....
[5:19 PM]Eönwë Valar: YouTube: Strider Sorrow Towers of the Teeth (Win A Battle, Lose A War)
[5:19 PM]Varda: Well put, Sandalf.
[5:19 PM]Eönwë Valar: Aye, Sandalf.
[5:20 PM]Eönwë Valar: In relation to my link: Although in Boromir's case I'd say it was more "Lose a Battle, Win the War."
[5:20 PM]Varda: : )
[5:21 PM]Sandalf13: Very true, Eonwe!
[5:21 PM]Ungwetari: Boromir definitely had a choice, just as Frodo did when he chose to bear the ring, Aragorn when he went into the paths of the dead (thanks for that one Sandalf), or Merry or Eowyn riding with the Rohirrim. All of them choices, and none, in their minds, did the alternative bear thinking of.
[5:21 PM]Sandalf13: And Boromir's victory in war resonated throughout the rest of the Return of the King...
[5:24 PM]Ungwetari: Valor I think is not whether or not one makes the right choices, but under what circumstances, regardless of the possible outcomes. Valor can be grand or personal, but it is never without sacrifice.
[5:25 PM]Varda: Or potential sacrifice. Might luck out.
[5:26 PM]Sandalf13: It is smarter to be lucky, and it is lucky to be smart...he he
[5:26 PM]Ungwetari: One can indeed act valorous, even if the actions themselves are in error. The question then simply becomes, how erroneous does one have to be before valor becomes something else, or evil even.
[5:26 PM]Varda: Hope can play a part. It might not be a hope for one's own life though.
[5:26 PM]Eönwë Valar: I'm sure you all are expecting this, but I've got a quote for that, if I can dig it up.
[5:27 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Perhaps evil and valor are not even mutually exclusive.
[5:27 PM]Varda: If the action is valorous, it will most likely have a good resonance if only as an example.
[5:27 PM]Sandalf13: Dig away!
[5:27 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: If you perform a valorous action even if your side is on the wrong side of history... even if your lord is the dark lord.
[5:28 PM]Ungwetari: The problem with 'good' is that it is interpreted by the victor.... Or at least so will the history books reflect until the next time they are rewritten.
[5:30 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Right! Does that make your deeds any less valorous if someone later on decides they're not right?
[5:30 PM]Ungwetari: Like the point in history where Germany was slowly becoming a cohesive nation and the 2 Franco Prussian wars. Both parties would say the actions of the other were evil. And indeed there was evil on both sides, just as there was valor on both sides.
[5:31 PM]Eönwë Valar: OK, so I've got two paragraphs to give here for the proper picture.
[5:32 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Let's go back to Eowyn. Sure, her deeds at Minas Tirith were valorous. But if the battle had failed there, wouldn't it have been more valorous to have stayed home and taken care of/defended Rohan from there?
[5:32 PM]Eönwë Valar: It's part of a larger discussion, but I'm trying to parse down to the two most pertinent paragraphs.
[5:33 PM]Ungwetari: Even during the 2nd world war, while we can claim the Third Reich was evil, and most people would have claimed and Germans to be evil, there was still valor there, both on and off the battlefield.
[5:33 PM]Sandalf13: It seems that that was what Aragorn was telling her when he advised her to stay with her people, and led to his comment about valorous deeds being no less valorous because they are unmarked...
[5:33 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Is it not valorous to escape a doomed fight - wherein you'd accomplished nothing but death - and flee, hide, recover and strike back later if possible?
[5:34 PM]Ungwetari: The plight of the 6th army in Stalingrad after the Russians broke free, fighting on until there was literally no hope left, that was still valor.
[5:34 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Perhaps valor is also dependent on the consequences.
@Ar-Pharazon-V
Is it not valorous to escape a doomed fight -wherein you'd accomplished nothing but death - and flee, hide, recover and strike back later if possible?
[5:35 PM]Ungwetari: But then again, living to fight another day is the better part of valor the saying goes
[5:36 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Perhaps the question should not be "What is valor" but "What isn't?"
[5:36 PM]Sandalf13: No...I think that as has been pointed out previously in this discussion, Valor IS...regardless of consequences. Valor is stepping up beyond oneself to do that which one perceives to be in the right, regardless of consequences.
[5:37 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: So as long as you're doing what you think is right, regardless of what you might lose, it is valorous.
[5:37 PM]Eönwë Valar: Ok, I take it back. I'm going to start earlier because I want the clearest picture of the discussion to be had.
[5:38 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: The only way it is not valorous is if you know that what you're doing is not right.
[5:38 PM]Eönwë Valar: So three paragraphs ought to do it.
[5:38 PM]Sandalf13: And now I remember that quote for our old friend Shakespeare: "Discretion is the better part of valor."
[5:38 PM]Eönwë Valar: (Beginning the Quote):
[5:38 PM]Sandalf13: Not that I necessarily agree with ol' Will...
[5:38 PM]Varda: Merriam Webster:
[5:38 PM]Varda: Definition of VALOR
[5:39 PM]Varda: "strength of mind or spirit that enables a person to encounter danger with firmness : personal bravery"
[5:39 PM]Varda: end quote.
[5:39 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I like that. It works regarding of the morality of the situation.
[5:39 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: *regardless
[5:40 PM]Varda: Morality, however, can give the person the needed strength of mind or spirit.
[5:41 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: That's true.
[5:41 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: So can recklessness
[5:41 PM]Sandalf13: A fey mood...
[5:41 PM]Varda: That would not be quite the same as strength
[5:42 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I don't know, it works as a strength of spirit.
[5:42 PM]Varda: The same result, but is it bravery?
[5:42 PM]Sandalf13: Hard to say, I think...
[5:42 PM]Varda: If it helps others, then we're ok with it. : )
[5:42 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Ah, there's a question.
[5:42 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Can you be brave if you have no fear?
[5:43 PM]Ungwetari: Recklessness is anathema to bravery.
[5:43 PM]Ungwetari: It is not regardless if consequences, it is despite of them. A major distinction.
[5:43 PM]Varda: You can do a brave act and realize afterwards and collapse afterwards in horror at what you ran into. : )
[5:44 PM]Varda: You see a need, you do it.
[5:44 PM]Varda: Then think, heh.
[5:44 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Is it bravery if you don't recognize the danger/fear until after you've done it?
[5:44 PM]Varda: Firm maybe.
[5:45 PM]Ungwetari: It can be.
[5:45 PM]Eönwë Valar:
"Of course in 'real life' causes are not clear cut— if only because human tyrants are seldom utterly corrupted into pure manifestations of evil will. As far as I can judge some seem to have been so corrupt, but even they must rule subjects only part of whom are equally corrupt, while many still need to have 'good motives', real or feigned, presented to them. As we see today. Still there are clear cases:e.g. acts of sheer cruel agression, in which therefore right is from the beginning wholly on one side, whatever evil the resentful suffering of evil may eventually generate in members of the right side. Ther eare also conflicts about important things or ideas. In such cases I am more impressed by the extreme importance of being on the right side, than I am disturbed by the revelation of the jungle of confused motives, private purposes, and individual actions (noble or base) in which the right and the wrong in actual human conflicts are commonly involved. If the conflict really is about things properly called right and wrong, or good and evil, then the rightness or goodness of one side is not proved or established by the claims of the other side; it must depend on the values and beliefs above and independent of a particular conflict. A judge must assign right and wrong according to principles which he holds valid in all cases. That being so, the right will remain an inalienable possession of the right side and justify its cause througout.
[5:45 PM]Eönwë Valar: "(I speak of causes, not individuals. Of course to a judge whose moral ideas have a religious or philosophical basis, or indeed to anyone not blinded by partisan fanaticism, the rightness of the cause will not justify the actions of its suppoerters, as individuals, that are morally wicked. But though 'propoganda' may seize on them as proofs that their cause was not in fact 'right', that is not valid. The agressors are themselves primarily to blame for the evil deeds that proceed from their original violations of justice and the passions that their own wickedness must naturally (by their standards) have been expected to arouse. They at any rate have no right to demand that their victims when assaulted should not demand an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.)
[5:45 PM]Varda: You may have trained to do it, which took bravery. Then when it happens, you react as trained.
[5:45 PM]Eönwë Valar: "Similarly, good actions by those on the wrong side will not justify their cause. There may be deeds on the wrong side of heroic courage, or some of a higher moral level: deeds of mercy and forbearance. A judge may accord them honour and rejoice to see how some men can rise above the hate and anger of a conflict; even as he may deplore the evil deeds on the right side and be grieved to see how hatred once provoked can drag them down. But this will not alter his judgement as to which side was in the right, nor his judgement of the primary blame for all the evil that followed to the other side."
[5:46 PM]Eönwë Valar: — Letters of Tolkien, Letter 183
[5:47 PM]Sandalf13: Thank you for the typing effort required to put those quotes up there, Eonwe! Well done.
[5:47 PM]Eönwë Valar: That at least is how Tolkien sees it.
[5:47 PM]Varda: Wow. Thank you, Eonwe!
[5:48 PM]Varda: As a Tolkien group, we may go with the words of Tolkien and consider the question answered.
[5:48 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Good quote
[5:48 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Of course it also depends on the objectivity of right and wrong, and the conviction of the judge in question.
[5:48 PM]Sandalf13: In "Der Ring des Nibelungen," Wagner notes that Siegfried had no fear...that is why the gods recruited him to slay Fafnir...was Siegfried valorous, as noted by Ungwetari?
[5:48 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: But I don't want to get into that
[5:49 PM]Varda: This being a Tolkien group, I'll stick to that area. : )
[5:50 PM]Ungwetari: I would say yes, because of the righteousness of the act, but not because of any bravery involved. I truly do not believe one can be brave without knowing fear.
[5:50 PM]Eönwë Valar: Well that depends on if you believe in inalienable human rights granted by a source higher than a human authority has to grant. If your rights are granted by a man, a man can take them away. Mom and Dad can put you on a curfew and take away your driving privileges, at least until you move out. Can they tell you to stop growing up?
[5:51 PM]Sandalf13: Exactly said, Ungwetari. True bravery is overcoming one's fear.
[5:51 PM]Varda: But when was the fear known? In training for the act so as to do the action almost automatically?
[5:52 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: As an atheist, I wonder at the higher source I believe that human rights are a good thing simply because it makes a positive contribution to the human experience.
[5:52 PM]Varda: Running into a burning building because one should was a terrifying thing to contemplate and train for, but may be automatic when the situation arises.
[5:52 PM]Ungwetari: Oh, but then one is trained to overcome fear, that in itself is not fearlessness.
[5:52 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: But the contrast of freedom and oppression might simply be interpreted as the contrast of anarchy and proper organization to another!
[5:53 PM]Ungwetari: The fear that it would normally engender is simply pushed to the background in favour of one's job or belief.
@Ar-Pharazon-V
But the contrast of freedom and oppression might simply be interpreted as the contrast of anarchy and proper organization to another!
[5:53 PM]Ungwetari: I think that might be a little too simply put.
[5:53 PM]Varda: Bravery can be seen as an act of love, of the highest order.
[5:53 PM]Eönwë Valar: The thinkers of the Enlightment would argue that "natural rights" are rights observable in nature, like the right for a gazelle to defend itself from a lion, a mongoose from a snake. The prey doesn't have to let itself be eaten.
[5:53 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: It was rather simplified, yes
[5:54 PM]Ungwetari: True, but those rights get very very muddled once you go into questions of morality.
[5:55 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: If the gazelle injures the lion, what would the other lions' opinion be about that right? :d
[5:55 PM]Sandalf13: Again, I find that my personal beliefs are in line with Ungwetari's comment...I was a member of the Raymond Volunteer Fire Dept as a firefighter and an EMT-B for well over 10 years. We were trained to go in to burning buildings, and I did on occasion...I still remember I felt fear, but training took precedence, and I did what I was required to do. I am lucky (not smart), and survived.
[5:56 PM]Varda: Thank you, Sandalf.
[5:56 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Ah, but that's different. You know the danger, you feel the fear. That's valor. I was more wondering about if you don't feel/realize it until after you've already done the action.
[5:57 PM]Eönwë Valar: Asking a predator the opinions of its prey's rights is pointless. This is why there would be objective observation.
[5:58 PM]Ungwetari: The same principle applies. There are plenty of examples of people, untrained, rush into burning buildings to save infants or pets. Only after they get out they realise what they did.
[5:58 PM]Ungwetari: Adrenaline certainly does wonders to drown out fear.
[5:58 PM]Sandalf13: I do not like the sight of blood, but living in a rural area, I realized that someone had to be ready to respond to fires and accidents. I was lucky that my military training prepared me for my work as a firefighter, and responding to many accidents (at which there were, on occasion, deaths). I personally felt good about overcoming my fears to do what needed to be done...that goes back to the comments made by many of you earlier this afternoon.
[6:00 PM]Ungwetari: I must correct you there Sandalf. I have not said a word here this afternoon.
[6:00 PM]Eönwë Valar: As for the current topic: I don't think the adrenaline rush would negate the risk. I would suggest it's more like what the Oracle tells Neo in Matrix Reloaded: 'You're not here to make the choice. You've already made it. You're here to understand why you made it." 1
[6:00 PM]Varda: :)
[6:00 PM]Ungwetari: Yes. Agreed
[6:01 PM]Eönwë Valar: The valour's there. You decided on some level already that the risk was worth what you're taking it for. The adrenaline just lets you do what you've already decided to do.
[6:01 PM]Sandalf13: Yet sometimes there is no understanding...one does what s/he was trained to do....
[6:01 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: But that still includes being aware of the risk at the moment of decision.
[6:02 PM]Ungwetari: Anyways. Seeing as it is now 1 AM, I shall bid you goodnight and attempt to sleep. Namarie everyone.
[6:02 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Namarie!
[6:02 PM]Eönwë Valar: Sleep well.
[6:02 PM]Sandalf13: Namarie and sleep well! Schlafen Sie gut!
[6:02 PM]Varda: Namarie : )
[6:03 PM]Eönwë Valar: If you were going to chicken out, the adrenaline wouldn't stop you. That's why it's called "fight or flight" heh.
[6:03 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Hmm. As for natural rights... I do agree with the right of the gazelle to defend itself, but that does not equate to a right to not be attacked by the lion in the first place.
[6:03 PM]Sandalf13: Adrenaline helps both ventures, yes.
[6:03 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: So is the lion on the wrong side of morality for its aggression?
[6:04 PM]Varda: The lion must eat and feed its family.
[6:04 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: It's the ciiircle of ♪ cough
[6:04 PM]Eönwë Valar: OK, I'm going to give a choice:
[6:05 PM]Eönwë Valar: I can answer seriously, or I can be funny. Vote now :}
[6:05 PM]Varda: both : ) Start funny!
[6:05 PM]Sandalf13: Don't even go there, or we all may be singing Kum ba yah together.
[6:05 PM]Varda: Not a bad tune...
[6:05 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I agree with Varda, start with funny
[6:05 PM]Eönwë Valar: Very well...
[6:06 PM]Eönwë Valar: YouTube: Futurama - We Taught a Lion to Eat Tofu
[6:06 PM]Varda: heh
[6:06 PM]Varda: Poor lion. : )
[6:07 PM]Sandalf13: Reminds me of the old joke...an Airline pilot gets on the 1 Mc and announces to the passengers that he has good news and bad news...the bad news is that the plane is hopelessly lost over the Pacific Ocean. The good news is that they are making very good time....
[6:07 PM]Varda: : )
[6:09 PM]Sandalf13: On that note...he he...Namarie until later...I must do what needs to be done (he he he) before I can return to Discord...
[6:10 PM]Eönwë Valar: As for the serious: The observation was about the right of defense. Even the lion has the right to defend itself against other animals. Animals attack each other for alot of reasons.
[6:10 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Namarie!
[6:10 PM]Varda: Aye, right of defense.
[6:10 PM]Varda: Namarie, Sandalf : )
[6:10 PM]Varda: until later
[6:10 PM]Eönwë Valar: Take care Sandalf.
[6:15 PM]Eönwë Valar: Although I would say that from the lion's perspective, it needs to eat, and it needs to feed its family, but it doesn't have the right to expect the gazelle to want to be eaten. Cavemen couldn't expect the wooly mammoth to lay down and say "Please carve me up. I'm delicious." Both have to train, and prepare, and work for their food.
[6:16 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Of course.
[6:16 PM]Varda: Aye. Wolves have a great many injuries from their prey, when examined. Trying to take down a moose is dangerous.
[6:18 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: But what natural laws can we then take from it that apply to us? Aggression is a natural law. Self-defense is a natural law. Survival of the strongest/fittest is a natural law. But morally it doesn't help us much
[6:19 PM]Varda: Morality tends to rise above natural law, where needed.
[6:19 PM]Eönwë Valar: It helps us by letting us know that if : YouTube: Help! I'm Being Repressed! (Short Version)
[6:19 PM]Eönwë Valar: We don't have to take it.
[6:20 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: That is true.
[6:21 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: But if we fight back, we have to face the consequences and not just assume we're on the side of good and everyone should support us.
[6:21 PM]Varda: If on the side of good, one can pretty much expect to be attacked. : )
[6:21 PM]Eönwë Valar: Second, by acknowledging we're all mankind (Men and Women), not lions and gazelles, or wolves and sheep. We're the same, we should treat each other the same..
[6:22 PM]Varda: Understanding consequences is part of bravery, tempered with good sense.
[6:22 PM]Eönwë Valar: The nobles aren't some "better" animal than the peasants.
[6:24 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: When I look at the source of my morality, I don't really need a higher authority. I'll look at empathy, quality of life, and whether it's a positive or negative contribution to society/the world. That makes sense to me. That's what I think is right. But I can't say for sure that I'm objective in that, that my morality is the only morality, that in the long run I'm on the right side of history compared to someone who disagrees.
[6:24 PM]Varda: But you do the best you can do, or figure.
[6:25 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I suppose that's my main issue with Tolkien's quote.
[6:25 PM]Eönwë Valar: The problem is, if there is no objective morality, then you can't truly say anything is wrong, and there are some pretty bad things out there.
[6:25 PM]Varda: Aye, who gets to define morality or what is good for others? Everyone should do what I think is right is not the best yardstick.
[6:26 PM]Varda: A man working in a mental institution suddenly realized he had defined sanity as "agreeing with him". Made him more tolerant.
[6:27 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Pretty bad things, from which perspective? Right now there are some pretty bad things happening leading to protests from all over the world and we can't even agree on who's in the right. Certainly the perpetrators think they're justified.
[6:28 PM]Eönwë Valar: Slavery for one.
[6:28 PM]Eönwë Valar: Things I can't mention in a family-language chat.
[6:28 PM]Varda: : )
[6:28 PM]Varda: And we need to keep out of politics. Skating along religion already.
[6:29 PM]Eönwë Valar: I have a hard time accepting doing certain things to certain people is not objectively evil. That's as far as I can say it.
[6:29 PM]Varda: If it harms others, it is most probably bad.
[6:29 PM]Varda: But self-defense is required, and defense of family, friends.
[6:30 PM]Eönwë Valar: On the other side, whether I choose pancakes or waffles is not going to save or condemn me.
[6:30 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Alright, we'll leave it at that then.
[6:30 PM]Eönwë Valar: Ultimately each of us makes our own decisions on how we get through the world, but I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm simply speaking from a philosophical standpoint.
[6:31 PM]Varda: What we know, is we like and respect each other. Fellow Tolkien fans and gamers. And that's kind of like family. : )
[6:32 PM]Eönwë Valar: And that quote I gave from Tolkien talks about all the murkiness and crossed purposes and wrong things done by bad people on the right side and good things by good people on the wrong side, and as he said, being on the right side doesn't make everything you do good, and being on the bad side doesn't make everything you do bad.
[6:32 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: It does, but it also states that there is an objective right and wrong side to begin with.
[6:33 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: And that will change with time.
[6:35 PM]Varda: Tolkien had it that what is right and wrong is the same between groups and doesn't change. But I don't have the quote in front of me. But that is Tolkien and you are discussing real life world view.
[6:35 PM]Eönwë Valar: That assumes there aren't observable, immutable truths about the nature of reality to base it upon. But it's ultimately not the kind of discussion one is going to have and resolve in a single afternoon/evening/morning if it's the same we (as a species) have been having for thousands of years, heh.
[6:35 PM]Varda: True, that.
[6:36 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: True, Varda. If we apply Tolkien's vision specifically to Tolkien's work, I can see where he's coming from
[6:36 PM]Varda: Which is what we try to do, aye.
[6:36 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Sorry I went beyond the scope of the discussion, then
[6:36 PM]Varda: It is After-meeting among friends. : )
[6:37 PM]Varda: And yes, we all did, at least somewhat. : )
[6:37 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: True, but carrying it into real life was a predictably bad idea.
[6:37 PM]Varda: So now we can go game! or have supper. or get some zzz's. ; )
[6:37 PM]Varda: and meet again next Sunday for more Tolkien and gaming!
[6:37 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I slept 11 hours last night, I think I'm fine for now...
[6:40 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I haven't even been up for 12
[6:40 PM]Eönwë Valar: OK, if we've had our serious for the day, does anyone dare see something they can't unsee? :}
[6:40 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Is it funny?
[6:40 PM]Eönwë Valar: It's... unexpected.
[6:40 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I'll take it!
[6:41 PM]Eönwë Valar: Sold! YouTube: Arnold Schwarzenegger Sings About Rainbows
[6:42 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Aww, that's just wholesome
[6:42 PM]Eönwë Valar: Just, the idea of Arnold doing that.
[6:43 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: He should, good for him!
[6:47 PM]Eönwë Valar: Father's Day is next week, but I give you all this anyway: YouTube: TMNT (Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles) Mystical Magical Fire Scene w/ Special Guest Splinter
[6:48 PM]Eönwë Valar: I never got to give a Mother's Day spiel because I had to work during the meeting.
[6:56 PM]Varda: and we are glad to take Before and After-meeting stuff, even days off. : )
[6:56 PM]Eönwë Valar: :}
[6:58 PM]Varda: "I love you all, my sons."
[7:00 PM]Varda: and oops, my LotRO report never went up:
[7:00 PM]Varda: LotRO players in our kin branches this past week:
Landroval branch
Crickhollow branch:
Treebeard branch:
[7:00 PM]Varda: There you go. ; )
[7:01 PM]Varda: I'm away for a bit. Back later.
[7:01 PM]Eönwë Valar: have fun.
[7:01 PM]Varda: Always ; )
[7:01 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: hehe
[7:03 PM]Eönwë Valar: I've been contemplating YouTube: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Origins so I guess I should start giving those thoughts form if I expect to subsist on anything besides YouTube: Kung Fu Panda (2008) - Impersonations at Dinner Scene
[8:27 PM]Eönwë Valar: OK, pizza secured, dinner assured. I hunted it down and now I'm devouring it, heh.
[8:28 PM]Sandalf13: Enjoy your pzza! I had guacamole using a bag of guac powder from Lincoln that had a use by date of 2019. It was still good.
[8:28 PM]Eönwë Valar: Lol.
[8:29 PM]Eönwë Valar: The real question was did it taste good?
[8:29 PM]Sandalf13: BTW - where did you find that video of Schwarzeneger singing? Fantastic!
[8:29 PM]Eönwë Valar: In my Youtube suggestions. It's not really him, it's AI.
[8:29 PM]Eönwë Valar: Superimposed over Judy Garland, of course.
[8:29 PM]Sandalf13: I gathered that, but still, it was hilarious!
[8:30 PM]Sandalf13: Judy Garland - underappreciated today, I think.
[8:31 PM]Eönwë Valar: You might be right. I'm sure I've seen her in more than The Wizard of Oz, but can't think of any movies for the life of me.
(Note: A list for Judy Garland, including 34 feature films.)
[8:32 PM]Sandalf13: Last week I had the chance to watch two of the greatest films of the 20th Century, according to most contemporaneous cdritics: Casablanca AND City Lights...As Roger Ebert said, the last 5 minutes of City Lights elevate it from the commonplace to one of the greats...
[8:33 PM]Eönwë Valar: Haven't seen City Lights, but Casablanca is on my "to watch" list.
[8:33 PM]Eönwë Valar: I watched The Maltese Falcon not too long ago. Fun movie.
[8:34 PM]Sandalf13: Please do...it is fantastic. And give City Lights a try. It was made when talkies were already the rage, and Chaplin kept it as a silent film, but he composed the music for it, that was somehow soundtracked onto the movie...so the music never varies. Yes...Bogart was excellent.
[8:34 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Oh, I've seen Casablanca. It was good.
[8:34 PM]Sandalf13: "Louie, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful relationship."
[8:35 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world...
[8:35 PM]Eönwë Valar: I watched... I think it was Metropolis, a few years back. Silent movie. Can't remember more than a couple of scenes anymore though.
[8:36 PM]Eönwë Valar: Guess it didn't catch my fancy.
[8:36 PM]Sandalf13: Another good one. It was Fritz Lang's best, I think.
[8:36 PM]Sandalf13: And it somehow resonates with our world today.
[8:36 PM]Eönwë Valar: I remember the production being pretty good for the time.
[8:38 PM]Eönwë Valar: Only tangentially related, because your mention of Metropolis resonating with today's world made me think of it: YouTube: Machine Hearts
[8:38 PM]Eönwë Valar: The song, not so much the visuals.
8:39 PM]Eönwë Valar: Here's one for the song without the music video: YouTube: Machine Hearts
[8:39 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Sharm? The Sharm?
[8:39 PM]Sandalf13: You are right! I am watching it now...it could have fit right into the track for Metropolis!
[8:39 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I love her WoW songs.
[8:40 PM]Eönwë Valar: Miracle of Sound does some seriously amazing work. I can't think of a song I've heard that I don't at least like.
[8:42 PM]Sandalf13: From the final moments of City Lights, when the blind girl, who can now see, recognizes that Chaplin's character was the one who gave her the money that she needed to gain her sight...wow. "Yes...I Can see now..."
[8:44 PM]Eönwë Valar: One sec, I'll find a clip. I suspect the still image doesn't do it justice.
[8:45 PM]Sandalf13: Please do...I think you will be moved by it...there are several youtube clips that show the final five minutes of the movie. I will look for one for you too.
[8:46 PM]Sandalf13: YouTube: Charlie Chaplin - City Lights ending
[8:46 PM]Sandalf13: And don't forget...Chaplin wrote the music, too.
[8:49 PM]Eönwë Valar: Makes me curious enough to watch the movie. WIll have to add it to my list.
[8:50 PM]Eönwë Valar: Curious if he was penniless and somehow got the money, or if he started rich and went broke making sure she got the surgery. Don't spoil it for me.
[8:51 PM]Sandalf13: I won't...all I can say is watch the movie very closely. The irony at the end is uplifting.
[8:53 PM]Eönwë Valar: Great, looks like it's free to watch on Tubi and Fawesome. Guess I've got a movie for my days off.
[8:53 PM]Sandalf13: I truly hope that you enjoy the experience...it is sort of like reading the LoTR for the first time...and the experience of watching such an old movie, a silent movie, no less....startles our perceptions.
[8:54 PM]Eönwë Valar: Trying to remember if I ever got a chance to watch Nosferatu. I feel like I must've, but if I forgot it that easily it couldn't have made an impression. Will save that one for closer to Halloween.
[8:56 PM]Sandalf13: Good idea. I remember these movies because my father saw some of them in their first release back in the day....my father loved Chaplin's movies.
[8:56 PM]Eönwë Valar: I remember seeing some old Ray Harryhausen movies as a kid because my dad wanted to watch them. Wish I'd appreciated that more then.
[8:57 PM]Sandalf13: Don't we all sometimes wish that we appreciated things our parents' tried to give us more at the time?
[8:59 PM]Eönwë Valar: I'm sure we do.
[9:02 PM]Eönwë Valar: That reminds me, gotta add The Thief of Bagdad to that list too. Another old one I remember partly watching with him, but I haven't seen it since and I want to remember what that thing was about. I just remember the guy making his last wish and the genie basically laughing at him and flying off or something like that.
[9:04 PM]Sandalf13: I do remember the Thief of Baghdad, but I do not recall the second movie you are referring to.
[9:06 PM]Eönwë Valar: In that same paragraph? I'm talking about a scene from The Thief of Bagdad (What I'm looking at spells "Bagdad" without the "h" though it looks weird). I wouldn't be surprised if my memory is shaky on that scene, but I remember a genie.
[9:06 PM]Sandalf13: Mayhap it will come to you at some odd moment in the near future...funny how our mind works, sometimes.
[9:06 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: hums Arabian Nights
[9:06 PM]Sandalf13: he he
[9:07 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Where they cut off your ear if they don't like your face, it's barbaric, but hey, it's home ♪
[9:08 PM]Eönwë Valar: Hmm, there's apparently a few different movies of "The Thief of Bagdad" and they're all pretty old. I'm going to have to figure out which one it was now, lol.
[9:08 PM]Sandalf13: Let me know...
[9:09 PM]Eönwë Valar: OK, I can rule out the 1952 German comedy I'm pretty sure, heh.
[9:10 PM]Eönwë Valar: The 1978 one might be fun to watch even if it's not the right one because it has Roddy McDowell, Peter Ustinov, and Terrance Stamp in it.
[9:11 PM]Sandalf13: I do not tthink it was the movie from 1924, perhaps the 1940 British version?
[9:11 PM]Eönwë Valar: But I suspect that's too new to be the right one anyway.
[9:11 PM]Eönwë Valar: I'm guessing either the 1940 or the 1961.
[9:11 PM]Sandalf13: You are probably right.
[9:11 PM]Eönwë Valar: But leaning towards the 1940.
[9:11 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: K, I'll throw my personal gaming report through this conversation, don't let me stop you
[9:12 PM]Eönwë Valar: That looks familiar: "The Thief of Bagdad is a 1940 British Technicolor historical fantasy film, produced by Alexander Korda and directed by Michael Powell, Ludwig Berger and Tim Whelan, with additional contributions by William Cameron Menzies and Korda brothers Vincent and Zoltán. The film stars Indian-born teen actor Sabu, Conrad Veidt, John Justin, and June Duprez..."
[9:12 PM]Sandalf13: I am all ears! (or eyes?) The ayes have it!
[9:12 PM]Sandalf13: Wasn't Conrad Veidt also in Casablanca?
[9:13 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: For (non)flashgaming, Circloo-2 is a puzzle game, short-ish. A gravity physics game where you have to roll a ball around to grab the small circles; a layer gets added to the level every time you do, giving you another problem to solve.
[9:13 PM]Eönwë Valar: Yep.
[9:13 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: And if you like, try to get fast enough to beat the 24 minutes total from the hard badge
[9:13 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Good music as well!
[9:14 PM]Eönwë Valar: Conrad Veidt
[9:14 PM]Sandalf13: Yup. Wikipedia...always a go to source of information.
[9:14 PM]Eönwë Valar: OK, I've chosen The Thief of Bagdad for my movie tonight, heh.
[9:14 PM]Eönwë Valar: With a grain of salt, but it serves its purpose.
[9:15 PM]Sandalf13: Please tell me what you think of it once you have viewed it...maybe I will look at it again, depending on your perspective...
[9:15 PM]Eönwë Valar: Watching the 1940 one, so we'll find out if I guessed right.
[9:16 PM]Eönwë Valar: I'll prep the meme links to let you know how I chose, heh.
[9:16 PM]Sandalf13: Super duper, Eonwe!
[9:17 PM]Sandalf13: Young Frankenstein: "Do NOT open this door"
[9:19 PM]Eönwë Valar: All I had to see was "Young Frankenstein" buried in that link and I don't even have to watch it to see it in my mind's eye, lol.
[9:20 PM]Eönwë Valar: Here you go :} YouTube: "Who dropped the fruit". Young Frankenstein.
[9:20 PM]Sandalf13: You got it!!!! Super duper!
[9:21 PM]Eönwë Valar: Mel Brooks knew is stuff. He was a funny man.
[9:21 PM]Eönwë Valar: I guess I should say "knows": he's still kicking!
[9:22 PM]Sandalf13: He is still alive, I think...I saw on the internet a few days ago that someone is trying to make Spaceballs Two: The Search for More Money, and that Rick Moranis will reprise his role as Dark Helmet.
[9:22 PM]Eönwë Valar: If Mel Brooks isn't involved, I don't know if I want it. I'd have to be pretty darn convinced they could carry on in his spirit.
[9:22 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Blizzard gaming:
[9:23 PM]Eönwë Valar: The guy is 97 years old. Impressive.
[9:23 PM]Sandalf13: Indeed.
[9:24 PM]Sandalf13: I hope we are all so lucky...and he still has all of his faculties intact.
[9:24 PM]Eönwë Valar: And he wrote and produced History of the World, Part II just last year.
[9:24 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Hearthstone: Level 118 on the reward track, more gold! Enough gold to buy a new class skin, getting Juggler Morgl (the murloc) for shaman. I like the original, and thought I'd give this one a go as well
[9:24 PM]Eönwë Valar: Only 42 years after he put out Part 1, hehe.
[9:24 PM]Sandalf13: Some things just take time....patience is a virtue, so they say.
[9:25 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Also completed the event quest, getting yet another shaman skin, the Thunder Ape.
[9:25 PM]Eönwë Valar: (Obviously not all work done just last year, but it came out last year. I'm sure you get the point.)
[9:26 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: And I got the death knight class to level 44 along the way!
[9:26 PM]Sandalf13: Yessir, Eonwe. We will have to exchange more notes on movies...I can see that you are a true fan and appreciate the finer points of filmmaking!
[9:27 PM]Eönwë Valar: Can't say I have deep knowledge into the processes, but I appreciate art when I see it.
[9:27 PM]Sandalf13: You have excellent taste, I am sure.
[9:28 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Brawl is the UnidentifiaBrawl; choose a class, get a random deck with a bunch of "unidentified" loot which are cards that get a random extra effect when they enter your hand.
[9:29 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Some luck needed, I'd advise classes that tend to work well with any cards, like priest or paladin.
[9:29 PM]Sandalf13: Thank you so much for indulging me this evening, Eonwe...I had better shut up, so that Ar can finish his report in peace...but I do hope we will continue our conversation!
[9:30 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Oh, I don't mind, though I wonder if Varda will have any trouble parsing the transcript
[9:30 PM]Sandalf13: I suspect she will do just fine, and chuckle her way through some of our comments.
[Note: *chuckle*]
[9:31 PM]Eönwë Valar: Quite likely, hehe.
[9:31 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Diablo 4: I have not yet started the new season, though I'll probably make a start on that on tuesday. I have, however, logged in to clear some loot from the previous season, as well as acquiring some free rewards from the shop for the anniversary event.
[9:32 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I should look into pre-ordering the expansion too... I don't remember if I got a physical copy of the original, probably not.
[9:32 PM]Eönwë Valar: D4 has an expansion announced? I'd been paying less attention than I thought.
[9:33 PM]Eönwë Valar: Oops, now I remember it, lol.
[9:33 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: hehe
[9:33 PM]Eönwë Valar: Vessel of Hatred.
[9:34 PM]Eönwë Valar: Cared so little it was in one ear and out the other, heh.
[9:34 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Yep. Trying to get rid of Mephisto. Experience tells us that these things never go well for the host, though.
[9:34 PM]Eönwë Valar: Aye.
[9:34 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: But since we're apparently spending an entire expansion trying to keep her alive, we might have a shot!
[9:34 PM]Sandalf13: I hope so.
[9:35 PM]Eönwë Valar: We didn't save Leah in D3.
[9:35 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Warcraft Rumble: Collection level 34! Got tired of waiting for rare and epic deals to upgrade minis, so I bought a few smaller upgrades instead, even though that meant spending arclight energy to upgrade from common to uncommon.
[9:36 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Indeed we didn't, and the Diablo 1 adventurer didn't live happily ever after either.
[9:36 PM]Eönwë Valar: The Wanderer, Tal Rasha, and whatever his name was that Mephisto corrupted the first time. Not a track record of success in saving people from that kind of influence.
[9:36 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Indeed.
[9:37 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: For the Rumble dungeon, got level 18 done with the horde leader Cairne after all, and in this Blackrock week I got Drakkisath through level 17.
[9:39 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: In the heroic sigil campaign, completed Morbent Fel on all families, and Blind Mary on 2 of them. That leaves me at 88 sigils, and 8 days or so from 90 sigils at which point I'll be able to siege and raid.
[9:40 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: A bit more pvp success as well, even despite my minis being a level or 2 lower than the opponent's, that's always nice
[9:40 PM]Eönwë Valar: Blind Mary. That's the old WoW quest that involves the banshee and her comb, isn't it?
[9:41 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Good memory! I'd forgotten, but in Rumble she is a banshee boss in the Duskwood zone, so it must be her
[9:41 PM]Eönwë Valar: Sounds right :}
[9:42 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: So yes, for mini upgrades and talents, quite a bit of progress this week, solely by being more willing to buy smaller upgrades.
[9:44 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Got Cairne, the horde leader, to uncommon, as well as the Gnoll Brute, the Earth Elemental and the Murloc Tidehunters. 3 out of those 4 I actually use in my standard army compositions, so very nice.
[9:44 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I got talents for all of them as well, and the one for the goblin sapper which I'd been waiting for.
[9:46 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Oh, and I upgraded and talented Rend Blackhand, another blackrock leader, as well! I'd gotten enough stars to do so weeks ago, but was still waiting for the free upgrade deal.
[9:46 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: And wouldn't you know it, but actually tonight another rare deal showed up, allowing me to upgrade the Angry Chickens from uncommon to rare, as well as buying a second talent for them, the Walking Crate.
[9:46 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Good to know they still appear regardless
[9:47 PM]Sandalf13: Angry chickens...now that's a hoot, or a squawk.
[9:47 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Gotta love the angry chickens
[9:48 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: WoW: More raiding! We completed Vault of the Incarnates on heroic, which means the title for a bunch of us except those who missed a boss here and there for one reason or another. Personally I'm just lacking one boss from the Amirdrassil raid.
[9:48 PM]Sandalf13:
[9:49 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Hmm, that does look angry!
[9:49 PM]Sandalf13: He is remembering his raptor heritage...
[9:50 PM]Eönwë Valar: Hehe...
Man: "The princess approaches and it is death to look upon her! No one will see her until her father gives her hand in marriage!"
Protagonist: "She's ugly?"
Man: "Her beauty is as the Sun and the Moon!"
Me: "... And you know this how?"
[9:51 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Weekly this week is Cataclysm timewalking. Twould appear that the End Time dungeon no longer counts for 2 for the quest, though, or I'd have been done in 3 dungeons rather than 5. Still, it's not a bad instance, so I don't mind
[9:51 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: But alas, no upgrade from the weekly's reward.
[9:52 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Other than that, more alting! Lots more alting!
[9:53 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: On Calkin, the horde main, I completed the main questlines in Nazmir, rescuing the frog loa and recruiting him as an ally, aiding a goblin crew in the recovery and repair of a giant mech cannon, helping a titan keeper figure out what's going on with G'huun, and finally tearing through the main blood troll base around the temple of Uldir with my allies (and horde army), slaying their leader and sending their construct creation through the roof into the raid instance.
[9:54 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: I'd never seen the questline back in Battle for Azeroth, so it's nice to have a bit of background for the raid we did back then
[9:55 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: After that I flew to Vol'dun to find evidence implicating a corrupt general, but got shot down by Sethrak (snake people) and rescued by a vulpera (fox person), who took me to the vulpera camp.
[9:56 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Calkin's level 39 now, one level away from actually being able to unlock the vulpera as a player race (which I'm planning to use as my second remix character) so it's nice to actually be able to meet them first
[9:57 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: And on my remix character Calvirona, I continued into Jade Forest! Completed all the story quests, started the path to exalted with the Order of the Cloud Serpent - now halfway through revered - and got all the other Jade Forest remix achievements done as well.
[9:58 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Explored the entire zone, found and slew 3 rares, collected some treasures, and completed the scenarios and dungeon in the zone.
[9:59 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: So with the exception of doing more daily quests for the cloud serpents, she's ready to enter the next zone!
[10:00 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Along the way she got from level 30 to level 37, and a lot of threads for the cloak of infinite potential. She got the achievements for 300 to 700 threads, and while the next achievement is at 2200, I'd guess that with all the stuff from the dungeon bosses, she's probably around 1000 now.
[10:00 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Definitely getting more powerful, though not yet powerful enough to solo the dungeon
[10:01 PM]Eönwë Valar: That you might need alot of threads, or a few gear upgrades.
[10:01 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: It'll come!
[10:01 PM]Eönwë Valar: Temple of the Jade Serpent seems to be tougher than some other dungeons though.
[10:01 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Oh, and for completing Jade Forest, she got a new toy as well, the Cherry Blossom Trail.
[10:01 PM]Eönwë Valar: Would've expected that to be the easiest since it's in a starter area.
[10:02 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Easy enough in a group, anyway!
[10:02 PM]Sandalf13: I must bid you both a fond Namarie...got to get ready for a busy week of work ahead! Namarie and sei gesund! I will finish reading Ar's report tomorrow!
[10:02 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: And since Calvirona is a bit flower-themed, I actually like the flower trail on her
[10:02 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Namarie!
[10:02 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Well, that's my report done for the week anyway
[10:02 PM]Eönwë Valar: Aye, but solo, the mobs in Mogu'Shan Palace are easier.
[10:02 PM]Eönwë Valar: Sleep well Sandalf.
[10:04 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Apparently the larger threads from zone and achievement rewards seem to focus on mastery and versatility for me, and she's been picking up a large amount of mastery that way, doubling her dps from it. Still needs a bit of survivability though
[10:04 PM]Ar-Pharazon-V: Anyway, namarie from me too
[10:05 PM]Eönwë Valar: Sleep well Phar. 10:05 PM]Eönwë Valar: Hope everyone enjoys the new story.
[11:15 PM]Eönwë Valar: Ok, so as to the question of whether it was the right movie or not: YouTube: Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade - You have chosen wisely
[11:16 PM]Eönwë Valar: As far as the scene I was remembering, the laughing came a little before the genie being free, but here's the genie leaving: YouTube: The Thief of Bagdad (1940)
[11:19 PM]Eönwë Valar: Here's some of the laughter: YouTube: The Thief of Bagdad (1940)
June 10, 2024
[2:08 AM]Eönwë Valar: Depending on your volume, might need to be ready for loud sound on the second video when he laughs.
[4:43 AM]Eönwë Valar: Hey Phar, in case you're curious about how many threads you've collected In MoP Remix, here's a link to a forum post with a lua script to run: script
[4:43 AM]Eönwë Valar: Says I've got 147570 right now.
[6:20 AM]Eönwë Valar: Heh, I'm almost to the point where even if I get imprisoned the Sha of Pride can kill himself by attacking me, heh.
[7:38 AM]Eönwë Valar: Well, I guess the next WoW expansion will be live August 26th. I hope I'm done with MoP remix in time to enjoy the prepatch event.
Thus ends this week's meeting. Come back and see us next week!
#/media/File:Thief_Of_Bagdad_(1940).jpg){kind=link}