January
8, 2022 Sunday Meeting
5:00 P.M. Eastern Time
Discord: Valar Guild/meeting_place
Back to News
Transcript work by Varda.
[times are Central Time from Varda's Discord. Add one hour for
Eastern.]
Attending (and typed): (5)
Discord: Arien, Ar-Pharazon, Eonwe (After-meeting), Sandalf,
Varda (presiding)
Before-meeting
Meeting begins
Membership news:
Web:
Gaming:
World of Warcraft, Overwatch 2, Lord
of the Rings Online
Tolkien:
Topic:
Gollum and Shelob's relationship.
After-meeting:
(non)Flashgaming
Reviews (plus) by Ar-Pharazon. Includes Blizzard games.
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Before-meeting
Varda Yesterday at 3:44 PM
Aiya. About 16 minutes.
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 3:44 PM
Aiya!
Varda Yesterday at 3:44 PM
Hey Phar : )
Varda Yesterday at 4:01 PM
@Bounder Aiya! The Valar Guild meeting is in surprise the Valar
Guild meeting_place! Come lurk, say hi, chat gaming and Tolkien,
make your wishes known!
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Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
[4:01 PM]
A star shines on the hour of our meeting.
[4:01 PM]
Membership:
[4:02 PM]
Arien said she'll be a bit late, but does plan to come.
Dis is over her Covid and back to gaming. : )
I'm back in town. : )
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 4:02 PM
No gaming because covid? That's taking quarantine a bit far.
Varda Yesterday at 4:03 PM
That's the breaks in a rest home.
[4:04 PM]
Do you have any news to pass along, Phar? Fladrif spotting maybe?
: )
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 4:04 PM
I'm not on bnet right now, but I can check.
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 4:04 PM
Aiya All! Busy packing.
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 4:05 PM
Fladrif last online 5 hours ago, so still around
Varda Yesterday at 4:07 PM
Yay!
[4:08 PM]
Aiya Sandalf. Pack away!
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 4:08 PM
Pack away ere break of day!
Varda Yesterday at 4:08 PM
: )
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 4:09 PM
it is impossible for you to imagine how much stuff I have managed
to pack into a small two room apartment. Good Navy training, I
guess...but it sure is a pain to get it all packed up!
Varda Yesterday at 4:10 PM
More membership: Tulkas invited ThundersnowSarabi to our channel,
so be sure to make our new guild-friend welcome if you spot!
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 4:10 PM
The unsung skills of the military, compact packing.
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 4:10 PM
Indeed.
Varda Yesterday at 4:10 PM
It is always incredible how much we find packed in all the corners
when trying to move! Yours is no doubt worse. : )
Arien Valar Yesterday at 4:11 PM
Aiya i have arrived
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 4:11 PM
Next week I will post some pictures of myt U-Haul truck fully
loaded. I get the truck on Wed, and my friend and I drive to
Denver on Thursday. We are keeping our fingers crossed about
missing some potential snow on Thursday.
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 4:12 PM
Aiya Arien!
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 4:12 PM
Aiya Arien!
Arien Valar Yesterday at 4:12 PM
:)
Varda Yesterday at 4:12 PM
Welcome, Sunshine. : )
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 4:12 PM
We who have been sorely lacking snow this year take offense at
your desire to miss it.
Varda Yesterday at 4:12 PM
Good luck with the weather during the move.
[4:13 PM]
Snow? What is this? Styrofoam pills?
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 4:13 PM
Thank you. We all hope it is favorable.
[4:14 PM]
Just before Xmas, I80 and I76 were CLOSED for three days due to a
snowstorm. That is exactly the route we are taking on Thursday.
Arien Valar Yesterday at 4:14 PM
we had two weeks of the powdery stuff or was it ten days ?
something like that and some arctic temparatures .. was awkward
drifing for a bit
Varda Yesterday at 4:17 PM
But people wish for a white Christmas? : )
Onwards
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Web:
[4:17 PM]
Not much work done this past week, as I've been away from home for
most of that time with no computer.
Gives an excuse. ; )
[4:18 PM]
Gaming:
[4:19 PM]
Eonwe was hoping to be here, and has been working on the Games
Site, but doesn't seem to have made it to the channel quite yet.
So please feel free to add to my report as we go. : ) First
part from Eonwe:
World of Warcraft:
[4:19 PM]
Vault of the Incarnates LFR wing 2 is open.
This week's bonus event: Warlords of Draenor Timewalking.
The PvP Brawl: Deepwind Dunk is going until Tuesday, January 10th.
[4:20 PM]
Check out this week's hotfixes:
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/23885941/hotfixes-january-6-2023
World of Warcraft
Hotfixes: January 6, 2023 - WoW
Here you will find a list of hotfixes that
address various issues related to World of Warcraft: Dragonflight,
Wrath of the Lich King Classic, Burning Crusade Classic, and WoW
Classic.
[4:20 PM]
Any other WoW news to mention?
[4:21 PM]
Here's hoping Arien and Phar's WoW gaming is going great. : )
Overwatch 2:
[4:21 PM]
There's a new game mode available through January 19th: Battle for
Olympus.
https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/23898578/
Overwatch
Introducing Battle for Olympus: A limited-time
free-for-all of myth...
Are you ready to harness the powers of ancient
Greek deities?
[4:22 PM]
Eonwe is working on updating the Games Site as he can between work
and here.
From me (don't blame him!):
Lord of the Rings
Online:
[4:23 PM]
Shadowfax server updated to a level cap of 120, adding "Where
Dragons Dwell" and the "Vales of Anduin".
Landroval:
Arien
Bregalad
Dis
Elwing
Eonwe
Fangorn
Nar
Varda
Crickhollow:
Arien (added during the meeting)
Eonwe
Fangorn
Varda
Shadowfax:
Varda
Treebeard:
Varda
[4:24 PM]
Any other gaming news?
Arien Valar Yesterday at 4:25 PM
yu ll have to mention me on crickhollow as well , just don t have
an invite yet there#
[4:25 PM]
:)
Varda Yesterday at 4:25 PM
Would you like one? : )
Arien Valar Yesterday at 4:25 PM
sure
Varda Yesterday at 4:25 PM
Ok, Sauron is testing out the alpha on Rogue Trader. It appears to
be one player at this time.
[4:26 PM]
Now pulling up Crickhollow of LotRO. : )
[4:27 PM]
And can add you to the Crickhollow list in the transcript. : )
Meanwhile, on to
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Tolkien!
[4:28 PM]
This past week on January 3 was, of course, JRR Tolkien's
birthday!
A /toast to The Professor! (again, just because it's fun!)
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 4:29 PM
Congratulations to him!
Varda Yesterday at 4:29 PM
On LotRO, there was much of the /toast and the /drink, plus music
and dancing. : )
[4:30 PM]
In other news, Arien's hunter just joined our Crickhollow kin.
/rejoice!
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 4:31 PM
Huzzah!
Varda Yesterday at 4:32 PM
For our Tolkien moment today, it was an interesting thought about
the relationship between Gollum and Shelob.
TT "Shelob's Lair"
[4:33 PM]
(Please forgive the lack of diacritical marks in my typing!)
Already, years before,
Gollum had beheld her, Smeagol who pried into all dark holes,
and in past days he had bowed and
worshipped her,
and the darkness of her evil will
walked through all the ways of his weariness beside him,
cutting him off from light and from
regret.
And he had promised to bring her
food.
End quote.
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 4:34 PM
Worshipping a spider, eh...
Arien Valar Yesterday at 4:35 PM
the weaver of fate l. it is not unknown
Varda Yesterday at 4:36 PM
A reallllly big spider. Last child of Ungoliant. Maybe some
Maiarness in the ambience that added to the feeling.
Arien Valar Yesterday at 4:36 PM
although i guess that tolkien here just was looking for a creature
Gollum would seek as Protector or whom he coold follow
Varda Yesterday at 4:36 PM
Interesting to note it says "in past days". Did he lose some of
that worshipful feeling at some point?
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 4:37 PM
Apart from the sneakery, I wonder what else they had in common
that Gollum would feel so in tune. We know Shelob's ancestor
lusted after the silmarilli, as Gollum did for the ring.
Varda Yesterday at 4:37 PM
Good point.
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 4:37 PM
Shelob seemed okay with prowling around and feeding on people,
though.
And the phial harmed her.
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 4:38 PM
I believe that somewhere close to this passage in the text is the
comment tht Gollum knew that Shelob would "eat" Frodo and cast the
ring away as useless to her...and then he would recover it.
Varda Yesterday at 4:39 PM
Unlike Ungoliant's desire to eat light, Shelob wanted to eat
massive amounts of food so that the mountains could no longer hold
her and the darkness could not contain her.
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 4:39 PM
Wouldn't that just make her too fat to get out?
Varda Yesterday at 4:39 PM
A spider normally slurps up the blood and leaves the husk. So that
could leave the Ring conveniently on an unresisting finger, rather
than a pile of ick. : )
[4:40 PM]
She might not have thought that far, Phar? Or thought she'd bust
out of the tunnels? She did know the way out.
[4:43 PM]
So did Gollum have a change of heart at some point? Why would that
happen?
Arien Valar Yesterday at 4:45 PM
i wonder whether he felt something like gratefulness towards Frodo
, because he treaed him kindly or with respect at least
[4:46 PM]
but he could not overcome that coveting of the ring as we know
from the degbate smeagol / deagol
or .. as sam called them stinker and slinker or something like
that [Note: Smeagol/Golllum = Stinker/Slinker)
Varda Yesterday at 4:47 PM
He did pick up a good feeling towards Frodo, for a time, true.
[4:48 PM]
I suspect, however, that the change towards Shelob was because the
Ring took over his feeling related to worship.
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 4:49 PM
Simply put, Gollum worshipped the Ring.
Varda Yesterday at 4:50 PM
It would have been interesting to see what could have happened if
Sam had been able to at least restrain his dislike more, or have
been a little more understanding after being around Frodo with his
Ring problems, and thought about how it could affect someone over
so long. (Of course that could also be why he did not trust
Gollum.)
Aye, Sandalf.
[4:52 PM]
The orc leaders let Shelob have a few orcs to feed her, as her
unintended help to them as a fearsome guard was that valuable to
them and to Sauron.
So that lenience extende to "Her sneak", Gollum, who helped her
get food.
[4:53 PM]
I wonder if they bribed him with fish sometimes to let the leaders
go, or leave them alone at certain key times.
Or some other bribe. He didn't eat just fish.
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 4:53 PM
Trade them for other orcs... possibly.
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 4:55 PM
I think that is a sad passage in the text, when Gollum reaches out
a trembling hand to touch Frodo, and Sam wakes up suddenly and
yells at "poor" Gollum. I too wonder what might have happened at
that point, if Sam showed some kindness towards Gollum instead of
rancor....but I think that Tolkien intended for Gollum to be
unredeemable at the end.
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 4:56 PM
In any case, if even Frodo could not resist the Ring at the very
end, Gollum would not have had a chance either, even if he
had turned more thoroughly.
Varda Yesterday at 4:57 PM
Gollum had along with the Ring eating his soul, the influence from
Shelob.
[4:57 PM]
Aye, Sandalf.
[4:57 PM]
"and the darkness of her evil will walked through all the ways of
his weariness beside him,
cutting him off from light and from regret."
[4:58 PM]
He had a lot working against him, and did not start as a nice
person, either.
[4:58 PM]
Amazing that even a shred of decency was left.
[4:59 PM]
(Aside: Thank you to Fangorn-Valar for making a surprise lovely
dinner and letting me eat while being with you folks here!)
[5:00 PM]
Where did that decency come from?
[5:00 PM]
And am I wrong in saying he had any? : )
[5:01 PM]
Sandalf's above paraphrase showing such a moment of decency
sneaking in there.
[5:02 PM]
Agreeing with Phar that Gollum could not resist the Ring. The Wise
knew no Ring-bearer could destroy it alone. Thus a Fellowship was
supposed to help.
[5:02 PM]
Along with just getting him to that awful place through all the
enemies.
[5:03 PM]
I wonder if the two Hobbits alone, without the rest, had a greater
chance of getting through. Hard to hide what some of the others
were.
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 5:07 PM
Depends on their route. They might have had trouble in Moria.
Varda Yesterday at 5:08 PM
Gandalf did have a tad of trouble there.
[5:09 PM]
Aragorn and Boromir had intended to drop off along the way to go
to Minas Tirith.
[5:09 PM]
Legolas and Gimli only had to go as far as the mountains, although
they went farther.
[5:10 PM]
Merry and Pippin did a great job of decoying from Frodo and Sam,
but it could have been cool if they had regrouped with them.
[5:10 PM]
We have reached the hour.
[5:11 PM]
the gavels split up as they leave the shelf, convering on the
hammerpad
thonkity thonk thonk, thonk thonk
the hammerpad applauds the percussion it enjoys by adding
reverb, making them jump back at the surprise
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After-meeting!
[5:12 PM]
Feel free to add to the Tolkien chat or chat about anything else
you like! Or go to bed, pack, game, etc. (As if you wouldn't
anyway!)
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 5:14 PM
Salutations. Sorry I'm late. Long earlier day.
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 5:14 PM
Aiya
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 5:14 PM
Aiya, Eonwe
Varda Yesterday at 5:14 PM
Welcome to the fun of After-meeting! Glad you could come. : )
How Sandalf manages to type and pack is a wonder. : )
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 5:15 PM
Pack with hands, type with feet, or vice versa.
Varda Yesterday at 5:15 PM
That's it!
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 5:17 PM
It is a wonder to me too...I will be stopping soon, for today. I
still have two more days to go...
Varda Yesterday at 5:18 PM
Might have to have some refuel/supper.
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 5:18 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Oe03Z39rA
YouTube
ThemeSongVideos
Small Wonder Theme Song
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 5:23 PM
Brings back some memories
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 5:25 PM
Never heard of it, but the premise seems interestingly ahead of
its time.
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 5:34 PM
Back later for report!
Arien Valar Yesterday at 5:35 PM
Aiya Eonwe
Varda Yesterday at 5:35 PM
Later, Phar : )
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 5:36 PM
Later, Ar..
[5:37 PM]
My next bookcase to start packing up is my Tolkien bookcase. Hard
to believe that when I log in next Sunday, I will be in my new
house in Thornton, CO. Wow, or as they say in German, Boh!
Varda Yesterday at 5:48 PM
Excellent!
Varda Yesterday at 6:06 PM
Archaeology + Linguistics. Title is a bit misleading but it's
interesting:
[6:06 PM]
https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkg95v/a-total-amateur-may-have-just-rewritten-human-history-with-bombshell-discovery?utm_source=pocket-newtab
A Total Amateur May Have Just Rewritten Human History With
Bombshel...
Ben Bacon is "effectively a person off the street," but he and his
academic co-authors think they've found the earliest writing in
human history.
Arien Valar Yesterday at 6:08 PM
Namarie all
Varda Yesterday at 6:09 PM
Namarie Arien : )
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 6:09 PM
Namarie, Arien! I too must return to packing. Ugh.
Varda Yesterday at 6:09 PM
And grats on your level up!
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 7:06 PM
Interesting. I'm not quite old enough to make the "so they found
my first grade homework" joke yet, but there you go :}
Varda Yesterday at 7:11 PM
I might be... : )
[7:12 PM]
All of us from Valinor might qualify as old enough.
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 7:12 PM
:}
Varda Yesterday at 7:13 PM
Our first music classes from Eru, maybe?
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 7:13 PM
:}
[7:15 PM]
Can you imagine that sheet music? ;}
Varda Yesterday at 7:15 PM
Yes. I've seen Beethoven's. Now add bars above and below!
[7:16 PM]
(I might not imagine right, but can imagine, heh.)
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 7:18 PM
:}
[7:18 PM]
Maybe a chord with 30+ notes in it.
Varda Yesterday at 7:19 PM
Wheee! Maybe so
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Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 8:05 PM
Personal gaming report!
[8:05 PM]
For (non)flashgaming, have
https://www.kongregate.com/games/TenebrousP/accelerator
Kongregate
Accelerator
How fast can you go? See if you can find a
place amongst the fastest players and stay alive for the longest
time!
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 8:05 PM
I am breathlessly awaiting your report.
Thank goodness. I can breathe again!
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 8:08 PM
An endurance game where you use the mouse to travel through a
series of randomly generated tunnels, avoiding the wall and
dodging obstacles, while accelerating as you go.
[8:09 PM]
Every 100 speed reached unlocks a new starting speed, and the idea
is to see how fast you can reach
Varda Yesterday at 8:09 PM
(Breathing is good.)
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 8:10 PM
There's also a choice of difficulties, adding forks and steeper
curves for extra challenge!
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 8:10 PM
Yes. Back in my EMT days only a few years ago, it was a little
joke among the EMTs...."He's breathing. That's a good sign."
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 8:15 PM
Blizzard gaming:
[8:16 PM]
Hearthstone:
65 on the reward track now, with more golden cards gotten along
the way.
[8:17 PM]
Also got the Death Knight class from 18 to 20. Gotta keep on
going, luckily the unholy deck I'm using works pretty decently
[8:19 PM]
Brawl is Miniature Warfare, where all your minions have 1/1 stats
and cost 1 mana. I got a priest deck with a bunch of battlecry
minions, and those that buff them. Works okay, though I've run
into a few more gimmicky ones that are quite interesting as well!
[8:20 PM]
WoW:
[8:21 PM]
Raiding has indeed started, but not with me yet, since I only
reached level 66 this week. I did see a friend come online who
also raids with us, but has been away during December and is now
starting from 60... I wonder if she'll beat me to 70, wouldn't
surprise me at this point >.>
[8:25 PM]
Progress has been slow, but continuing. Made my way into the
Ohn'aran Plains, picking off the first of the 4 main questlines,
and making it to the great centaur meeting at Maruukai with a
friendly caravan. Along the way I've completed a bunch of side
questlines, with a ton more picked up at Maruukai itself. Looks
like this zone really has everything centered around the major
camps, which is good for overview... but bad for my questlog
I'll see about tackling all those sidequests next week!
[8:26 PM]
And yep, I suppose that's my report for the week, short as it is
Namarie!
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 8:28 PM
Sleep well :}
[8:28 PM]
Speaking of WoW, I made it to 70 last night.
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 8:28 PM
Grats
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 8:28 PM
I did most of the quests in one zone, but the rest of the
exp was mostly the gargoyle-flight racing quests and mining.
(edited)
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 8:28 PM
Yay racing!
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 8:29 PM
I did a handleful of scattered quests in other zones, but I find
myself not caring about the story all that much.
[8:30 PM]
I admit the racing part was mostly fun, and got a few gold times
in there, though mostly bronze. Point was I got them done for the
quest credit, heh.
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 8:30 PM
Indeed
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 8:31 PM
Then I went and reforged my gear as far as I could since I'm a
blacksmith, so hovering somewhere close to 330ish ilvl I think
since two of my blacksmithing pieces can't go over 316.
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 8:32 PM
Namarie, Ar! Thank you for an excellent and exhilirating report!
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 8:32 PM
Heh. I actually got my first upgrade this week after leaving
Shadowlands in mostly fated heroic gear, about 4 ilevels on a
blue-procced cloak
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 8:32 PM
:}
[8:32 PM]
Congrats :}
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 8:32 PM
Thanks :)
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 8:32 PM
Whooeeeee.
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 8:33 PM
Of course that means I'm just about hitting the point where I'm no
longer overgeared, that's gonna hurt!
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 8:33 PM
My gear's probably not enough to make a difference in soloing
mythic Kil'Jaeden in Tomb of Sargeras, but eh, I might have to
see.
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 8:33 PM
Ah, good luck
[8:33 PM]
green ashbringer, was it?
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 8:34 PM
Have either of you seen the Norwegian movie, "Ashlad?"
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 8:34 PM
Green Lightbringer is from Heroic Tomb, so I got that. Green
Ashbringer is from Mythic+15, and I doubt I'll be getting a group
together for that.
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 8:34 PM
Does not ring a bell.
[8:34 PM]
Ah.
[8:34 PM]
Well, grats on getting that one, at least
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 8:34 PM
*Green Flame Ashbringer.
[8:35 PM]
https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screenshots/normal/533897-ashbringer-retribution-paladin.jpg
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 8:35 PM
The name of the movie I am thinking of is actually "The Ash Lad,"
from 2017.
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 8:36 PM
The movie name is not familiar to me.
@Ar-Pharazon-V
Well, grats on getting that one, at least
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 8:36 PM
Thanks :}
[8:38 PM]
I did find out I stood a better chance at getting some of the
appearances for the Ashbringer than I thought (or at least
remembered) so I think only 2 at most should be highly unlikely.
(edited)
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 8:39 PM
Still not bad!
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 8:39 PM
Hmm, 317 ilvl. Forgot my rings, amulet, and trinkets are still
pretty bad.
[8:41 PM]
Yeah, 10 rated battlegrounds and Mythic+15 are the only two I'm
highly unlikely to get.
[8:42 PM]
I'm honor lvl 73, so I'm not as far from the Honor lvl 80 one as I
thought.
[8:43 PM]
And then Glory of the Legion Hero, and I'll have all but the two
highly unlikely ones.
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 8:45 PM
I got my M+15 back in Legion, fortunately, which was probably the
best time for it, because it didn't reset the scaling every season
like it does now.
I must have gotten the battlegrounds too around then... I think I
got it over time through pugging, there was a groupfinder function
for pvp.
Honor 80 was indeed my last one
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 8:47 PM
Too bad I can't get a keystone from a Legion mythic dungeon and
trying soloing old mythic+. That would be entertaining.
Ar-Pharazon-V Yesterday at 8:47 PM
hehe
[8:52 PM]
Well, goodnight
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 8:53 PM
Goodnight,, Ar. Sleep well. Schlδfst du gut!
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 8:53 PM
Sleep well Phar.
Sandalf13 Yesterday at 8:53 PM
Namarie!
Eonwλ Valar Yesterday at 9:07 PM
Sleep well Sandalf, belatedly.
Varda Yesterday at 10:32 PM
Nighty night
Varda Today at 2:47 PM Jan. 9
Shelob's evil will cut off Gollum from not just light but regret.
The feelings of regret had to have been causing pain, so she
removed that pain.
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