May 15, 2022 Sunday
Meeting
5:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Savings
Time
Discord: Valar
Guild/meeting_place
Back to News
Transcript work by Varda.
[times are Central Time from Varda's Discord. Add one hour for
Eastern.]
Attending (and typed): (6)
Discord: Arien, Ar-Pharazon, Eonwe, Pallando,
Sandalf13, Varda (presiding)
Before-meeting
Meeting begins
Membership news:
Web:
Gaming:
World of
Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online,
Diablo 3, Overwatch, Hearthstone, Eve Online
Tolkien:
Topic:
In Tolkien's works, what is the
difference in approach between Good and Evil in gaining followers?
Start with Evil
After-meeting:
(non)Flashgaming
Reviews (plus) by Ar-Pharazon. Includes Blizzard games.
Links to the place showing why the link is
in the chat:
Link: Einstein and
Goldschmidt
Link: Flight of Dragons:
Death of Sir Orrin Neville-Smythe
Link: Flight of
Dragons: Title Song
top
Before-meeting
Varda Today at 3:57 PM
Aiya
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 3:57 PM
Aiya!
Sandalf13 Today at 3:58 PM
Aiya! Oops...I need to shift my German to my English keyuboard.
Varda Today at 3:58 PM
We have a few minutes
Sandalf13 Today at 3:58 PM
Done!
[4:00 PM]
You have no idea how glad I am that I finally got Chapter
Three to you...now I am just waiting to hear back from my geologic
reviewers.
Varda Today at 4:01 PM
I might have some idea. : ) And congratulations!
Sandalf13 Today at
4:01 PM
FYI...that is one of my heroes...Viktor Goldschmidt...talking with
Albert Einstein as they visit outcrops of the Lower
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/98425690877104128/975503183700983858/Einstein_und_Goldschmidt_June_1920_Osla_Lower_Paleozoic_.png
[Note: now also at:
http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/art/gallery/Sandalf13/Einstein_und_Goldschmidt_June_1920_Osla_Lower_Paleozoic_.png
]
Varda Today at 4:01 PM
May they answer you with helpful comments and kudos
Sandalf13 Today at 4:01 PM
paleopzoic limestones in the Oslo region..
Varda Today at 4:01 PM
o wow
Sandalf13 Today at 4:02 PM
Goldschmidt is mentioned in the text and a footnote is provided
for him in Chap 3.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:02 PM
Salutations
Varda Today at 4:03 PM
Greetings : )
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:03 PM
Aiya!
Sandalf13 Today at 4:03 PM
Aiya Eonwe!
Varda Today at 4:05 PM
Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
[4:05 PM]
Membership:
[4:05 PM]
Good to see you all, and to hear of Sandalf's progress. : )
[4:05 PM]
Good luck wiht the fellow geologists.
[4:05 PM]
Any other membership news?
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:06 PM
Fladrif's been around, talked to him as well, mutual birthday
congratulations
Varda Today at 4:07 PM
Huzzah! Happy double birthday, like Frodo and Bilbo : )
[4:07 PM]
makes a cake stack
Treebeard Today at 4:08 PM
Hello
Varda Today at 4:08 PM
Aiya Fangorn : )
Sandalf13 Today at 4:08 PM
Allo Fangorn!
Varda Today at 4:08 PM
Fangorn and I are gaming in Eregion at the moment, in LotRO.
[4:08 PM]
Lots of holly trees here. Some move...
[4:08 PM]
Good spot for Fangorn to tame. ; )
[4:09 PM]
Elves must have awakened a few.
Sandalf13 Today at 4:09 PM
If you see any rock outcrops....especially coal beds....please let
me know immediaately!
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:09 PM
Well, 4 days apart, really, Varda, but close enough.
[4:09 PM]
Aiya fangorn!
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:09 PM
Sure, find a huorn,, make him your friend, name him Reggie :}
Varda Today at 4:09 PM
Close enough for cake!
[4:09 PM]
heh
[4:10 PM]
I have some tiny walking tree pets. That count?
[4:10 PM]
Maybe "George"
[4:11 PM]
top
Web:
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:11 PM
If it's a walking holly tree, sure :} Gotta name him Reggie <=
Ereg(gie)ion :}
[4:11 PM]
Anyway, enough wordplay from me :}
Varda Today at 4:11 PM
Nothing to mention. Sorry, used to drag in tons of stuff from
outside folk. Been trying to keep it to Guild, but going to have
to do more outside again, looks like. Sorry.
[4:11 PM]
Perfect. I have several of the little guys, needed more names!
[4:12 PM]
top
Gaming:
[4:12 PM]
Eonwe, would you like to handle this section?
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:12 PM
Sure.
Varda Today at 4:13 PM
Your gavel, sir.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:14 PM
Oh, my very own gavel. I will name him George and I will hug him
and pet him and....
[4:14 PM]
:}
[4:14 PM]
World of Warcraft:
Varda Today at 4:15 PM
spoiling the gavel
Arien Valar Today at 4:15 PM
hello all
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:15 PM
This week's Bonus Event: Pet Battles.
The PvP Brawl: Warsong Scramble runs through Tuesday, May 17th.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:15 PM
The day Eonwe became Elmyra.
Varda Today at 4:15 PM
Aiya Sunshine : )
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:15 PM
Aiya Arien!
Arien Valar Today at 4:15 PM
aiya !
Sandalf13 Today at 4:15 PM
Aiye Arien!
[4:15 PM]
Elvira_
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:15 PM
For Burning Crusade Classic, Sunwell Plateau is open. ---
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/23789253/burning-crusade-classic-the-sunwell-plateau-is-now-open
World of Warcraft
Burning Crusade Classic: The Sunwell Plateau is
Now Open! - WoW
Get ready to join the Shattered Sun Offensive
and face Kil'jaeden in Sunwell Plateau in the next content phase
of Burning Crusade Classic.
Varda Today at 4:15 PM
Guys spoil kids too : )
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:15 PM
Also keep in mind the WoW: Burning Crusade Classic Character
Cloning will soon be discountinued. ---
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/23783592/the-wow-burning-crusade-classic-character-clone-service-is-retiring-soon
World of Warcraft
The WoW: Burning Crusade Classic Character
Clone Service is Retirin...
Heads up! The WoWฎ: Burning Crusade Classic
Character Clone service will soon be cycled out of the Battle.netฎ
Shop.
The service will go on sale shortly before its
gone for good, allowing you one last chance to be in two places at
once.
[4:16 PM]
Check out the latest hotfixes. ---
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/23770463/hotfixes-may-13-2022
World of Warcraft
Hotfixes: May 13, 2022 - WoW
Here you will find a list of hotfixes that
address various issues related to World of Warcraft: Shadowlands,
Burning Crusade Classic, and WoW Classic.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:16 PM
Myes. Saw that, noticed I still had 2 classic chars
uncharacterized, and dropped em off in classic legacy.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArNz8U7tgU4
YouTube
ttfud
I will name him George
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:17 PM
Ah, not Elmyra Duff then, but still the right franchise
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:17 PM
Lord of the Rings
Online:
[4:17 PM]
Update 33.0.3 came out this week. ---
https://www.lotro.com/update-notes/lotro-update-33-0-3-release-notes-en
The Lord of the Rings Online
Update 33.0.3 Release Notes
Here are the Release Notes for Update 33.0.3:
The Yondershire, released on Wednesday, May 11th, 2022.
[4:17 PM]
( :} )
Varda Today at 4:17 PM
LotRO players present in the kin branches for this past week:
Landroval
server:
Dis
Eonwe
Fangorn
Ioreth
Nar
Thranduil
Tulkas
Varda
Anor server:
Eonwe
Fangorn
Varda
Shadowfax server:
Arien
Varda
Treebeard server:
Varda
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:18 PM
Diablo 3:
[4:18 PM]
Diablo 3 is celebrating its 10-year anniversary. ---
https://us.diablo3.blizzard.com/en-us/blog/23788296/diablo-iii-celebrates-10-years-5-12-2022
Diablo III
Diablo III Celebrates 10 Years
Diablo III turns 10! Join us in celebrating
this remarkably hellish entry to the Diablo storyline.
[4:18 PM]
Overwatch:
[4:19 PM]
There's a Developer Blog up for Week 2 of the Overwatch 2 PvP
Beta. ---
https://playoverwatch.com/en-us/news/23801626/overwatch-2-pvp-beta-week-2-developer-blog/
Overwatch
Overwatch 2 PvP Beta: Week 2 Developer Blog
The team is back for another developer blog
after week 2 of the Overwatch 2 PvP Beta!
Hearthstone:
[4:19 PM]
Patch 23.2 is out. ---
https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/news/23784375/23-2-patch-notes
23.2 Patch Notes
Patch 23.2 brings Naga to Battlegrounds,
updates to Mercenaries, new client features, and more!
[4:20 PM]
And in case anyone ever wonders
what season a game is currently experiencing, the following
experts are here to help you figure it out:
[4:20 PM]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17ocaZb-bGg
YouTube
kenpoarniceguy1
Rabbit Season, Duck Season trilogy.
[4:20 PM]
That's it for my gaming news :}
Varda Today at 4:20 PM
Thank you Eonwe, and thanks for the funnies : )
[4:21 PM]
Any other general gaming news?
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:21 PM
MP :}
Varda Today at 4:21 PM
@Bounder Valar Guild meeting time! Sorry for the late message, but
join in to say hi, chat Tolkien!
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:22 PM
10 years of D3... time flies
Varda Today at 4:22 PM
We've been gaming a while, haven't we? : ) Yay!
[4:22 PM]
Any other news? I have a Tolkien topic if no one else has one they
wanted to try?
Arien Valar Today at 4:24 PM
2006 i joined and i started wow .. that year i think but i did
play Diablo 2 before on Bruce s computer and when we moved
together i started playing Eve online first
Varda Today at 4:24 PM
Nice : )
Arien Valar Today at 4:25 PM
through adventuring and browsing i came across the Valar Guild
website and from there to wow .. and the rest is as they say
history
Varda Today at 4:25 PM
Huzzah!
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:25 PM
Yay
Varda Today at 4:25 PM
And we appreciate your shining presence!
Arien Valar Today at 4:25 PM
:)
Varda Today at 4:26 PM
On to
[4:26 PM]
top
Tolkien!
[4:26 PM]
Here's a question for the group. Answer as something comes to
mind.
In Tolkien's works, what is the difference in
approach between Good and Evil in gaining followers?
Start with Evil
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:27 PM
Breed your own and fill up with people you intimidate?
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:27 PM
Bribery and indimidation.
Sandalf13 Today at 4:27 PM
Masquerading as a friendly help, evil soon reveals its sinister
side...
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:28 PM
Enslavement once you've picked off everyone who can be bought.
Varda Today at 4:28 PM
Good job. You are all set to start your own evil empire. : )
Sandalf13 Today at 4:29 PM
Deception is everything.
[4:29 PM]
Confuse and conquer.
Varda Today at 4:29 PM
Does seem so.
[4:29 PM]
From the beginning, evil can show quick results due to direct and
heavy-handed power. This helps gain followers quickly.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:29 PM
Capturing and corrupting/breeding seems to work, at least.
Varda Today at 4:29 PM
Aye.
[4:29 PM]
Because good has rules to allow free will and tries not to harm
innocents, evil can say it is ineffectual and stupid.
[4:30 PM]
"Evil wins because good is dumb."
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:30 PM
hehe
Sandalf13 Today at 4:30 PM
Although i do not believe that it is anywhere explicitly stated by
Tolkien that the Orcs are subjugated Elves...changed into Orcs
over time.
Varda Today at 4:31 PM
That particular discussion is outside today's scope. : )
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:31 PM
I will mention, though, that I think some of the later History
books did kinda confirm it.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:32 PM
Words like "it is said by the Wise" and "it is believed" are used,
because no one was there when Morogth bred the orcs to know for
sure, except for Morgoth and his servants, and even if he told you
"yes, I did that" would you necessarily take it as gospel? he did
something though.
Arien Valar Today at 4:32 PM
Evil seeks destruction , create chaos and uses lies as cheap
excuses to use over proportionate cruelty
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:32 PM
A bit of genetic research could give some conclusive results.
Sandalf13 Today at 4:33 PM
I will save a comment on Arien's note until after-meeting.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:33 PM
Fair enough, the Valar could take a look and give a definitive.
Varda Today at 4:33 PM
If one sees "dumb" as staying quiet and inactive rather than just
stupid or mute, it has more layers to consider.
[4:34 PM]
(The dumb comment actually comes from evil Dark Helmet.)
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:34 PM
It did sound familiar
Varda Today at 4:34 PM
Do you see any layers?
Sandalf13 Today at 4:34 PM
Now THAT was a funny movie...good work by Mel Brooks!
Varda Today at 4:35 PM
Aye : )
[4:35 PM]
Evil uses intimidation to create or add to that paralysis. Taking
over (by bribery, despair, threat to self/family/friends) those
who should be friends (Grima Wormtongue, Saruman) or particular
persons or locations with precision (Theoden, Denethor) adds to
this.
[4:36 PM]
Is there a weakness to Evil's approach in gaining (and keeping)
followers?
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:36 PM
Evil can be pragmatically efficient, I'll give it that.
Sandalf13 Today at 4:36 PM
Evil always has to watch its back...
Pallando-Valar Today at 4:37 PM
Aiya
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:37 PM
Hmm, I suppose there's no true loyalty. If followers start to see
an opportunity to get away or even fight for power of their own,
they might not be very reliable.
Arien Valar Today at 4:37 PM
Aiya Pallando
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:37 PM
Aiya!
Sandalf13 Today at 4:37 PM
Aiya Pallando!
Varda Today at 4:38 PM
Aiya Blue Wizard : )
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:38 PM
Evil has to maintain fear in order to maintain followers. Fear of
itself is not always enough, so fear of the forces of good and (as
is mentioned in HoME) even fear of Eru, corrupted, is used.
Varda Today at 4:38 PM
That sounds like a real weakness: lack of loyalty from the heart.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:38 PM
Good followers tend to fight for the same goals as their leaders.
Bad followers are more about "How do I survive this?" rather than
"How do I serve my master?"
Varda Today at 4:38 PM
Interesting
Sandalf13 Today at 4:39 PM
"There is no rest for the wicked..."
Varda Today at 4:39 PM
heh
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:39 PM
Exceptions are there, of course.
Varda Today at 4:39 PM
Is there a reason to die for this cause besides going to die from
leader if I don't?
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:39 PM
Right
Varda Today at 4:40 PM
Another weakness could be that the followers are suppressed and
yet have a desire for power that may cause them to set up their
own fiefdoms that may be or just seen to be a danger to the top
power.
[4:41 PM]
So we already see a weakness for good's trying to gain followers,
in that evil can get the quick jump by promising power (even if
not the way they hoped, Ringwraiths for instance).
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:41 PM
Also, evil bosses don't really tend to care for the mental and
physical wellness of their followers. It might make them less
effective in battle if they're malnourished, for example
Varda Today at 4:41 PM
Meat's back on the menu after maggoty bread? : )
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:42 PM
Too much meat might still leave you sickly in battle
Varda Today at 4:42 PM
True too. And could be tainted old meat, eww
Sandalf13 Today at 4:43 PM
As Gandalf points out, Sauron would not let his minions know that
he was searching for a specific ring...if he let his orcs know
that they were looking for the One Ring, and one of them found it,
Sauron was afraid they might use the
[4:43 PM]
Ring themselves...even though I do not see how a lowly Orc would
have enough wisdom to wield the Ring.
Varda Today at 4:44 PM
Only to the extent that the orc could use it. Some mean bit of
ability, or at least invisiblity
[4:44 PM]
Could not trust his minions to bring it in instead of using, aye!
Sandalf13 Today at 4:44 PM
maybe one of the Nazgul would grab it?
Varda Today at 4:45 PM
Couldn't.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:45 PM
An orc with the Ring would probably be better for Sauron that
Gollum with the Ring. That orc might be stupid enough to think he
can take Sauron.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:45 PM
It's not like invisible orc would escape Sauron's notice
Varda Today at 4:45 PM
Aye, the Ring made the bearer even more visible to Sauron.
Sandalf13 Today at 4:46 PM
I always thought that Sauron had to keep a close eye on his most
powerful underlings, namely the Nine. Now they had the power to
use the Ring...
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:46 PM
He had theirs, though.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:46 PM
The Nazgul were completely slaves to their rings, which Sauron
kept.
Varda Today at 4:47 PM
Sauron knew what he was doing when he sent the Nine to bring him
the One Ring
Pallando-Valar Today at 4:48 PM
Next week I will possibly be on time and will do a gaming report.
Then again, I am a Blue Wizard and you know how wizards and time
work..
Sandalf13 Today at 4:48 PM
Did the Nazgul completely give up their free wil to Sauron?
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:48 PM
I suppose if they could have passed Gondor and Rohan unnoticed, it
might have been more efficient for Sauron to send orcs rather than
Nazgul. Bigger numbers, and after an orc got the Ring he could
then send the Nazgul.
Varda Today at 4:48 PM
You are welcome to give your report in After-meeting if you have
time, Pallando?
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:48 PM
I mean, they would have been slower, but Sauron did not know he
was on a timetable.
Treebeard Today at 4:48 PM
Deception was used on those that used the Palantir by showing them
a part of the future that Sauron wanted them to see, but no
more... very convincing.
Pallando-Valar Today at 4:48 PM
I could, sure.
Varda Today at 4:49 PM
Great!
[4:50 PM]
And feel free to weigh in on the Tolkien chat : )
[4:50 PM]
Aye, deception again, a very big part of what Evil had to do for
control.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:51 PM
What we might call "propaganda"
Sandalf13 Today at 4:51 PM
This discussion is very apropos to today's world situation, yes?
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:51 PM
I did catch a link when I said propaganda, yes.
[4:51 PM]
But the real world is not why we're here
Varda Today at 4:52 PM
Tolkien is relevant to a great deal. : )
[4:52 PM]
even if we didn't intend it.
Sandalf13 Today at 4:52 PM
Absolutely. I do think, however, that in his writing, Tolkien
never lost sight of the real world events happening outside of
Oxfordd.
Varda Today at 4:52 PM
Aye.
[4:52 PM]
But it was not intended to be an allegory.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:53 PM
Applicability.
Varda Today at 4:53 PM
Otherwise the "good guys' would have used the One Ring.
Sandalf13 Today at 4:53 PM
Very true. There is a fine line between allegory and contrasting
good and evil in a book...
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:53 PM
Oh, I don't know. They "used" the One Ring by destroying it. Same
goes for a few weapons I could name...
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 4:54 PM
His humans are not intended to be any more or less noble (or
villainous) than humanity is. The same weaknesses, strengths,
potential to choose do the right thing or the wrong thing,
according to one's ability and knowledge. (edited)
***
Pallando-Valar Today at 4:56 PM
So the 6-7th of May was CCP Games' Fanfest in Iceland, and I was
there, on the scene, in person! Trip report follows: I got into
Iceland on Wednesday, went to Sky Lagoon in the afternoon (highly
recommended) then to an Eve-themed pub quiz (our team won, which
shocked us). Thursday was a lava cave tour and planning for my
teams' appearance in the tournament Friday which was after the
keynote. Unfortunately we lost due to me hitting a bug and not
being able to correct it in time. Because of that, I was able to
actually participate in the roundtables the rest of the day which
was a sort of silver lining. That evening was a "Gourmet" pub
crawl which I can post pictures of in a bit. Saturday was more
roundtables all day followed by the Part on top of the World (more
pictures available upon request).
Sunday was recovery day and we had a fantastic brunch with over a
dozen members of my alliance and their +1s, followed by a return
trip to Sky Lagoon (seriously. It's great). Monday a few of us got
in a rented car and explored a bit of Iceland's southern coast,
including seeing some lava, a glacier, some waterfalls, and the
infamous black sand beach. Wednesday we flew home and... Thursday
I tested positive for COVID. Womp.
Varda Today at 4:56 PM
ack
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:57 PM
Iceland does always seem like a nice place to visit.
Sandalf13 Today at 4:57 PM
Have you been vaccinated?
Pallando-Valar Today at 4:57 PM
The gaming bit: CCP announced plans, but virtually nothing
immediately coming for the game. Reactions were mixed at best.
What they did announce was mostly related to Faction Warfare and
an upcoming total revamp, but details were light (they only
started pre-production last week, which was the week after
Fanfest).
[4:57 PM]
Yes, with booster.
Sandalf13 Today at 4:58 PM
I hope your Case of Covid is not too severe, then.
Pallando-Valar Today at 4:58 PM
Symptoms are mild for now, no worse than a bad head cold so far.
Throat hurts like a Nazgul tried to extract the One Ring from
inside my stomach.
[4:58 PM]
Otherwise mostly fine. I do hate sneezing though.
Sandalf13 Today at 4:58 PM
Oy weh.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 4:59 PM
I'm not sure a nazgul would bother going through the throat...
Pallando-Valar Today at 5:00 PM
Additional announcements were more work on their Photon UI revamp,
changes for skill training, and a new system they're calling
"Heraldry" which will tie into the new "Alignment" system. We'll
be getting alliance skins, statues at citadels, and much flashier
rewards for killmarks. (edited)
@Ar-Pharazon-V
I'm not sure a nazgul would bother going through the throat...
Pallando-Valar Today at 5:01 PM
Listen it hurts a lot and y'all were talking about Nazguls. Work
with me here.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:01 PM
Pallando-Valar Today at 5:03 PM
In news relevant to the alliance I run in game, we're involved in
two completely separate wars which we're having mixed success
with. These wars both started before fanfest (in both cases our
allies were aggressed, not us directly), but we didn't commit to
them until after I (and our other main fleet commander) got back
from fanfest. Of course when we got back, both of us brought COVID
with us so that's been fun.
[5:05 PM]
CCP said to expect more concrete details of the big announcement
(FW revamp) towards the end of summer, with a goal of releasing
the first slate of changes sometime in Q4. They're also changing
their relase cycle (again) to nebulously-defined "Arcs" which are
not tied to any particular release cadence, but will instead be a
series of thematically and narratively linked releases.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:06 PM
If only you could give covid to enemy ships...
Pallando-Valar Today at 5:07 PM
We have made many jokes about my fellow FC and I getting targeted
by our enemies at Fanfest with COVID.
[5:07 PM]
We're both recovering though.
Sandalf13 Today at 5:07 PM
People onboard a ship live in very close quarters...no pun
intended.
Pallando-Valar Today at 5:08 PM
Think that covers it all.
[5:09 PM]
I can spam pictures of Iceland, food, and Icelandic food if people
want..
Varda Today at 5:09 PM
That was a lot of interesting news!
[5:09 PM]
heh, we'd probably enjoy it here shortly.
Sandalf13 Today at 5:09 PM
Did you collect any olivine crystals?
Treebeard Today at 5:10 PM
Yes, thanks
****
Varda Today at 5:10 PM
We have the other half of our Tolkien chat to go:
[5:10 PM]
What does Good do that allows it to gain followers, like ever?
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:13 PM
Inspiring speeches!
Treebeard Today at 5:13 PM
Good says truth that is verified again and again despite the
propoganda.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:13 PM
The occasional draft, but actually taking good care of its people.
Sandalf13 Today at 5:14 PM
I think that "Good" is a categorical imperative, a la Kant. We do
good,, because it is the right (good) think to do, and applies to
everyone, universally.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 5:15 PM
Good lays out the situation and expects you to make up your own
darn mind. The Valar exiled exactly one Noldo from Aman, and that
was F๋anor. Notice even his sons, who also took the oath, were not
exiled.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:15 PM
Good also recruits by admiration and loyalty rather than fear.
Arien Valar Today at 5:16 PM
Someone allergic to chicken would call it evil if you offered him
or her a drumstick
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:16 PM
True, Eonwe. All the Fellowship was volunteers, no oath was put on
them, while the Nazgul were forced to. The Fellowship got to make
up their own mind.
[5:17 PM]
Similar with Aragorn giving his men the choice of going back and
reinforcing Ithilien rather than being commanded to come to the
Black Gate.
Treebeard Today at 5:17 PM
Evil chicken if the offer was made in bad faith wanting harm.
Arien Valar Today at 5:18 PM
agreed Fangorn
@Sandalf13
Did you collect any olivine crystals?
Pallando-Valar Today at 5:18 PM
I have some tachylite, no Olivine though.
Sandalf13 Today at 5:18 PM
That is cool too...
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:18 PM
What if the chicken was offered to a vegetarian? It would not harm
their health, but it would be a form of temptation to sway them
Arien Valar Today at 5:20 PM
well it gets difficult then that is depends on whether the
vegetarian is strong enough to resist the temptation
Varda Today at 5:21 PM
Thanks, Pallando.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:21 PM
Ah, but is the act of offering in itself evil?
Arien Valar Today at 5:21 PM
(reminds me of a scene in a film where a woman offers ham to a
muslim who is saying it smells good )
Sandalf13 Today at 5:21 PM
Does it depend on the motivation for doing so?
Varda Today at 5:21 PM
Intent is important there, Phar.
Treebeard Today at 5:22 PM
.... Evil almost vegetarian acolyte tester person...
Arien Valar Today at 5:22 PM
(without meaning any harm just a bit teasing )
Varda Today at 5:22 PM
Teasing is not really "good".
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 5:22 PM
Aye, intent is very important. If the vegetarian is starving and
the only option to survive is to eat a piece of chicken, if the
person offering it is trying to save their life, that's not wrong.
If the person is doing it to make the person violate their own
moral code, that's a different situation.
[5:23 PM]
At that point it's up to the vegetarian how strict their
vegetarian policy is.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:23 PM
What if the person offering it thinks the vegetarian's moral code
is wrong?
Varda Today at 5:23 PM
That's intent again.
[5:24 PM]
Forcing beliefs on someone is not good.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:24 PM
Yes, but from the point of the person offering it, they might
consider it a good thing to sway someone from a "wrong" moral
code.
Sandalf13 Today at 5:24 PM
I do not think that would change the dynamic....if one sees a
starving vegetarian and offers them chicken, the feelings of the
giver are irrelevant to the choice that the vegetarian has to
make.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:24 PM
Well, force... they're not force-feeding the chicken.
Treebeard Today at 5:24 PM
So, Samwise offering to carry the One Ring for a bit was not Evil,
but was indeed in good faith, but Frodo didn't see it that way...
Sandalf13 Today at 5:24 PM
Because Frodo was already pretty "attached" to the Ring.
[5:24 PM]
Or vice versa.
Treebeard Today at 5:25 PM
Definitely mind sway there
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:26 PM
In this case, offering the chicken would be no more evil than
someone going around houses trying to convince people of their
religion. They're not "forcing" anything, just giving people a
means to see it their way.
Sandalf13 Today at 5:26 PM
It always bothered me that sometimes it sounds as if the Ring had
a will of its own. Gandalf tells Frodo that the Ring was aware
that Sauron had re-arisen, and was seeking to finds its Master.
That makes one think the Ring was capable of thought....I have
trouble seeing how any gold ring could be imbued with such power.
Varda Today at 5:26 PM
It has a bit of Sauron himself in it, at least programming to get
back to him.
[5:27 PM]
Sauron, once built up enough, called all evil things to himself.
Even Gollum felt it.
Arien Valar Today at 5:27 PM
i hope you dont consider it evil that i have to extract myself of
this highly interesting debate :O?
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:27 PM
Eviiiiil!
Varda Today at 5:27 PM
You are always free to come and go. : )
Sandalf13 Today at 5:27 PM
It is always sad to see you leave!
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 5:27 PM
A dog is aware of its surroundings. Your hand is aware of the
keyboard as you type.
Varda Today at 5:27 PM
and you can check out the transcript, leave comments between
meetings.
Arien Valar Today at 5:28 PM
Well thank you Sandalf but .. but unfortunately sigh
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:28 PM
I like the idea that the Ring has a form of programming.
Treebeard Today at 5:28 PM
It was the reason that Sauron was not destroyed entirely in the
first Ring War and was totally destroyed when it fell in the
lava. That was all that tied Sauron to the world in the
books.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:28 PM
A basic AI that can sense things, react to things (such as
expanding to drop off of a finger) and even communicate in a way
with its wearer.
Arien Valar Today at 5:28 PM
the customers definitly would probably find me evil if i didn t
Varda Today at 5:28 PM
Aye, programming seemed to be in all the Rings that Sauron made.
Opening up backdoors to his control throught the One Ring.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 5:29 PM
If the Ring is an extension of Sauron, it would make sense that
Sauron would be "aware" of himself on some level.
Varda Today at 5:29 PM
Namarie, Arien. : )
Arien Valar Today at 5:29 PM
Namarie
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 5:29 PM
Sleep well Arien.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:29 PM
namarie!
Sandalf13 Today at 5:29 PM
Namarie!
Varda Today at 5:29 PM
Back to how does Good gain followers, when Evil is so seductive
ahead of it by offering power "freely".
[5:29 PM]
It's in the freedom to try things on their own, and in the
beautiful and productive long-term results, and in the type of
help given.
[5:30 PM]
Because good has rules to allow free will and tries not to harm
innocents, it can appear ineffectual and even "dumb", but in the
end wins out because it also gives help due to caring.
Sandalf13 Today at 5:30 PM
What is the definition of good?
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:30 PM
The truth shall make you fret/fred/free!
Varda Today at 5:30 PM
Define Evil for the above topic if you like. And we're kind of
working on just that.
[5:30 PM]
Friendship given and received is like Super-glue. Groups form
under it to carry out the various things they all want.
[5:31 PM]
Example: Aragorn turns Frodo loose with Sam rather than forcing
them to stay with him so he can be sure the One Ring is handled as
he sees fit.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:31 PM
I suppose that definition changes between generations and
cultures, Sandalf For some it is order and safety, for
others it's freedom and chaos. In all, though, it tends to veer
towards creation over destruction and getting along rather than
fighting against each other.
Varda Today at 5:32 PM
Good is not one thing to one race and another to another nor does
it vary over time.
[5:32 PM]
That's Tolkien, not exact quote.
Sandalf13 Today at 5:32 PM
I think that Aragorn understood the power of the Ring to corrupt
more than any other member of the surviving Fellowship...and he
chose to let Frodo and Sam carry the burden themselves...knowing
that it might have corrupted even more members of the Fellowship
if the Ring - and frodo - hung around much longer.
Varda Today at 5:32 PM
We are talking Tolkien here. : )
[5:32 PM]
Aye, Sandalf
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:33 PM
True, true. We are talking about the definition of Good as in the
context of Tolkien.
Varda Today at 5:33 PM
Example: Manwe's being at the top as the "last word" due to
friendship (after advice given) and his being closest to the mind
and intentions of Eru, rather than fear of smiting; and the ones
under his rule doing their own huge things mostly on their own
such as handling Compassion, Hunting, Death and foretelling,
Dreams and rest, Water, Plants and Animals, Light. (edited)
Sandalf13 Today at 5:33 PM
Don't forget the ocean and the sea....please.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 5:34 PM
Freedom and Order are not mutually exclusive.
[5:34 PM]
Good Order is the repsect of individuality and Free Will.
Sandalf13 Today at 5:34 PM
One finds freedom within order. Ask any conscript in
bootcamp...and I know this from personal experience.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 5:34 PM
One finds Order within Freedom. (edited)
[5:34 PM]
Will is Order.
[5:35 PM]
Will over oneself sets Order over oneself. I.e. Self Control :}
Sandalf13 Today at 5:35 PM
In terms of a Venn diagram, freedom and order overlap almost
completelly.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 5:36 PM
Eru gave to each person their own Being, not the Being of Others.
He tells Aul๋ this when Aul๋ makes the Dwarves.
Sandalf13 Today at 5:36 PM
Perhaps that is why we generally (and I mean generally) equate
chaos with evil?
Varda Today at 5:36 PM
And then there's Lawful Evil, as they say in D&D. : )
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:36 PM
and Chaotic Good
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 5:36 PM
Not really. There's also' Evil Order, which lacks the respect of
Free Will: The determination to set your will over those things
which you do not have authority.
Varda Today at 5:37 PM
One can use rules to force evil. All of you must bow before the
statue of Sauron or die, for instance.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 5:37 PM
That's what Morgoth does: He wants his Will over all of Creation,
which is not his to control. He wants control over the parts other
people play, which is not his by right.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:38 PM
I think Morgoth was trying to create chaos using order.
Sandalf13 Today at 5:38 PM
Morgoth does not understand that whatever he does he does within
the confines of Eru's will.
Varda Today at 5:38 PM
A thing is good or bad not because it exists, but how it's used
with what intent.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 5:38 PM
Eru set the rules when he taught the Ainur to sing, then told them
"With what I have taught you, make a great Music." He gave them
the tools and the materials with which to sing Ea into existence.
They're his Legos.
[5:39 PM]
Actually, Varda,... In Morgoth's Ring it's said that
Matter is "wholly good in origin". Existence is Good :}
Sandalf13 Today at 5:39 PM
And how can we mere mortals know the mind of Eru? None of us
can...not even Manwe could...because Eru is beyond comprehension.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:40 PM
Pff, such an excuse
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 5:40 PM
We can know his mind according to our measure, just like the Ainur
did.
Sandalf13 Today at 5:40 PM
We can see parts without seeing the whole.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 5:41 PM
Plus there are some things Eru spells out for us, like Morgoth
doesn't get to take Arien's Legos just because Varda is sharing
hers with Manw๋. (edited)
Varda Today at 5:42 PM
: )
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:42 PM
Now imagining a Valar version of the muppet babies.
Varda Today at 5:42 PM
Fun to share between us: herre is the ear, here is the leg...
[5:43 PM]
Chibis : ) If spelling right.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:43 PM
Not exactly chibis, but actually younger versions, that learn
lessons from playing with legos
Sandalf13 Today at 5:43 PM
There are only three things one needs to do to be "good," again
citing the Good Book. "It hath been told thee, O Man, what is
good, and what the Lord doth require of thee...only to do justice,
love mercy, and walk humbly with thy G-d."
Varda Today at 5:43 PM
: )
Sandalf13 Today at 5:44 PM
All three admirable things in themselves!
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:44 PM
If you call it a Good Book, that's kinda biased
Varda Today at 5:44 PM
That is what it is called by many, to distinguish it from other
books.
Sandalf13 Today at 5:44 PM
True, but I am unashamedly calling it such, but that does not
prevent me from "loving" those who do not share my beliefs.
Varda Today at 5:45 PM
Help's form is another way of distinguishing:
[5:45 PM]
Help done by good is trying to raise up the one aided. The payback
is a happier and more beautiful and productive life for both.
Help done by evil is due to trying to gain power over the one
aided so that only the giver's voice may ever be heard.
Sandalf13 Today at 5:46 PM
My favorite prophet, Micah.
Varda Today at 5:49 PM
We are nearly an hour over time now. : )
Sandalf13 Today at 5:49 PM
Yup.
Varda Today at 5:50 PM
Feel free to continue in After-meeting (Aftah aftah?) if you like,
[5:50 PM]
gavel taps the hammerpad
tap!
Sandalf13 Today at 5:50 PM
Time flies by when one is fortunate enough to have such wonderful
companions to talk with...even if it is on Discord.
Varda Today at 5:50 PM
hammerpad is startled
[5:50 PM]
top
After-meeting!
[5:50 PM]
heh
[5:51 PM]
So many chats wind up with discord. May that not happen to us, at
least not badly. ; )
Treebeard Today at 5:51 PM
Have fun. Bye and Namarie
Sandalf13 Today at 5:51 PM
Namarie!
[5:52 PM]
How did they come up with the name "Discord," anyway?
[5:52 PM]
Wouldn't "concord" be better? Maybe?
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:53 PM
namarie!
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 5:53 PM
Play on its meaning and the word discourse, likely.
Varda Today at 5:53 PM
Namarie : )
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:53 PM
It's about everyone getting to have a different opinion even if it
clashes
[5:54 PM]
Chaotic good!
Sandalf13 Today at 5:54 PM
OK. Exactly what I was thinking!
[5:54 PM]
Some like "E pluribus unum" perhaps?
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 5:54 PM
Chaos is just the competition of opposing Orders :}
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:55 PM
that works
[5:55 PM]
The more opposing orders, the better?
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 5:55 PM
As iron sharpeneth iron, so a man sharpeneth the countenance of
his friend.
Varda Today at 5:55 PM
Complete chaos would lead to perfect dispersion, more order. : )
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 5:56 PM
Oh, of course, perfect chaos always becomes perfect order.
[5:56 PM]
Entropy, isn't it?
Sandalf13 Today at 5:56 PM
So everything comes full circle, nicht wahr?
Yes. The whole Universe is winding down.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 5:59 PM
Now I'm thinking of a DBZ AMV based on Fight Club, heh. I won't be
linking here due to language.
[6:01 PM]
It's a very old one.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 6:03 PM
I'm now thinking that perfect chaos is in itself an oxymoron.
Sandalf13 Today at 6:03 PM
I think you are right.
[6:07 PM]
And I think that I need to toddle off...I hope everyone has
a wonderful week ahead, and sleeps well tonight. Sei gesund and
Namarie!
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 6:07 PM
Namarie!
Varda Today at 6:07 PM
Namarie : )
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 6:08 PM
Take care Sandalf.
Varda Today at 6:18 PM
Supper time
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 6:18 PM
Enjoy!
[6:19 PM]
I fear my personal gaming report will be a bit less productive on
the WoW and Hearthstone front, as I've spent many a night this
week watching Eurovision or a movie or two
[6:20 PM]
But that'll be after I get my daily mercenary bounties done in
Hearthstone. Well, usually daily, I think I've done it like 3 or 4
times this week.
Varda Today at 6:21 PM
Supper has been called - hope to be back later. Be gone tomorrow,
on the road. See some relatives of Fangorn's including a lady of
103 years young.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 6:21 PM
Spring chicken.
Varda Today at 6:21 PM
Movies are fun too : )
heh
I hope so!
We should live to about 120. Not doing too well on that front. ; )
Later!
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 6:22 PM
120? I thought old used to be 40...
Varda Today at 6:22 PM
Future old
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 6:22 PM
Right
Varda Today at 6:22 PM
Could go back to Methuseleh, heh, but had to cut lifespan to cut
down the amount of sin. : )
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 6:23 PM
Probably better this way anyway, the brain tends to deteriorate
after a certain point.
Varda Today at 6:23 PM
But, does it have to?
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 6:23 PM
Biologically? Probably.
Varda Today at 6:23 PM
I know some very sharp people in their 90's.
[6:23 PM]
later : )
top
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 7:04 PM
Personal gaming report!
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 7:31 PM
For (non)flashgaming, here's
https://www.kongregate.com/games/eddynardo/dozenbear
Kongregate
Dozenbear
The bees have forsaken their Queen and want to
keep all the honey for themselves.
Fill 12 jars of honey, bring it back to the
Queen and watch her reclaim her...
[7:32 PM]
Made by the same guy who makes gimmicky platformers I've linked
before, but instead of 15 levels, there's 1 area with a bunch of
rooms, a bit maze-like.
[7:34 PM]
You play a bear who needs to find all honey combs and deliver them
to the bee queen, but you can only make 12 moves before reaching a
checkpoint or have to start over from the last. Moves
include turning around and jumping, but you continue to autorun in
the same direction which doesn't cost moves.
[7:34 PM]
But there's more abilities to be gained from friendly bears around
the maze, if you can find them!
[7:34 PM]
top
Blizzard gaming:
[7:35 PM]
Hearthstone:
Made it to 66 on the reward track. At least I'm still getting my
quests done for that.
[7:42 PM]
Almost have enough gold for the final card back (in fact, only 5
short).
[7:42 PM]
And got my demon hunter class to level 60!
[7:42 PM]
Now I've got all classes at 60, which means I'll be looking at
whose the furthest behind in wins when I decide who to play with.
[7:43 PM]
Looks like rogue and warrior are furthest behind at this point
[7:44 PM]
Brawl is noblegarden: Choose a class, each turn you get an egg on
the board which you can buff with dyes in your deck, which will
summon minions from a select pool ("cute").
[7:44 PM]
Also some other noblegarden themed cards and buffs for your eggs
and minions.
[7:45 PM]
So lots of randomness! But priest is usually quite useful for
buffs and heals.
[7:46 PM]
Not much mercenary'd this week, but I did get a few levels on
mercs here and there, including getting Murky his first few
levels.
[7:46 PM]
WoW:
[7:46 PM]
Heroic raiding continuing, Pantheon downed a few more times, and
making good progress on Lihuvim after that.
[7:48 PM]
Weekly is pet battles, along which I got the achievement for 250
pet battle victories, getting me a new pet, the Stunted Direhorn.
Quite cute, and even walks around on its own while idle.
[7:48 PM]
Still no alting though. Maybe next week?
[7:48 PM]
And that's my report for the week!
Varda Today at 7:52 PM
Thanks, Phar : )
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Eonw๋ Valar Today at
7:59 PM
Because it doesn't get old:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPcWhLT6ysc
YouTube
CJ Scherrer
Flight of Dragons Death of Sir Orrin
Neville-Smythe
Eonw๋ Valar Today at
8:08 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogsNTmPAIaE
YouTube
Andrew Cole
The Flight of Dragons (Title Song) - Don McLean
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 8:11 PM
Hmm, got an advertisement on that video about an IT system for
offices, and someone said "As soon as I started playing with it, a
lightbulb went off."
[8:11 PM]
I don't think that means what he thinks it means...
[8:12 PM]
Shouldn't the lightbulb go on?
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 8:14 PM
I don't know the context, but assuming they're meaning like they
got an idea, or something clicked, then yes.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 8:14 PM
That seemed to be the idea, yes.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 8:14 PM
They might be mixing metaphors, like "an alarm went off."
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 8:14 PM
Right
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 8:14 PM
As in, it sounded.
[8:15 PM]
So, in that way, they could be trying to mean that it was
activated :}
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 8:15 PM
I figured it'd be something like that, but I still wanted to
mention it.
[8:15 PM]
Indeed
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 8:16 PM
Anyway, I suppose that's enough analysis from me when I could be
posting this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or8G_jDcLNo
YouTube
Gene Cook
The Hobbit - Smaugs Boast
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 8:18 PM
He is strong!!
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 8:18 PM
I think I just found my next hour of story time...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU_t6wEvGf4
YouTube
Children's Classic Audiobooks
The Hobbit - 1977 - Rankin/Bass - Complete Original Soundtrack
Reco...
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 8:19 PM
No one can tell him he's wrong.
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 8:19 PM
Not in prose or in song!
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 8:19 PM
Smaug is a battlefield ♪
Eonw๋ Valar Today at 8:20 PM
Touche, you almost snuck that reference by me.
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 8:20 PM
Ar-Pharazon-V Today at 8:42 PM
Namarie!
Varda Today at 8:45 PM
Namarie : )
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