Valar Guild

August 21, 2022 Sunday Meeting

5:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Savings Time
Discord: Valar Guild/meeting_place

Back to News
Transcript work by Varda.
[times are Central Time from Varda's Discord. Add one hour for Eastern.]

Attending (and typed): (5)
    Discord:
Arien, Ar-Pharazon, Pallando (After), Sandalf13 (Before and After), Varda (presiding)
        Seen during the week in Europe: Shelob, Helm
Before-meeting
Meeting begins
Membership news:
Web:

Gaming:
   
World of Warcraft, Diablo 3, Overwatch, Hearthstone, Warcraft 3: Reforged, Lord of the Rings Online, Diablo 3 (more), Eve Online
Tolkien:
    Topic: Oath stone
After-meeting:.
    (non)Flashgaming Reviews (plus) by Ar-Pharazon. Includes Blizzard games.

 
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Before-meeting

Sandalf13 — Today at 11:48 AM
Here I am in Chicago Midway airport, waiting for my flight to Omaha. I should be arriving in Omaha around 1450, and still hope to make at least part of this afternoon's meeting...depends on the flight being on time and travel times from Omaha to Lincoln. The flight from Midway to Omaha is about 1.25 hours...so. Hope everyone is well and enjoying.  Did any of you get a chance to look at my Chapter Two - The Last Line i Tolkien?

Varda — Today at 3:45 PM
You know I got to read it. ; )
[3:48 PM]
Smelling hot plastic. Hope it
[3:48 PM]
isn't my laptop.

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 3:49 PM
Dunno, not knowing what something burning is can be scarier than knowing it.

Varda — Today at 3:50 PM
heh
[3:50 PM]
Aiya Phar : )

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 3:50 PM
Aiya

Varda — Today at 3:50 PM
Eonwe probably can't make it. I'll be back shortly, I hope. Going to shut down and start up
[3:55 PM]
Back. All's well. Something got in the neighbor's barbecue grill and came in my window. : )

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 3:56 PM
heh
[3:56 PM]
Hmm, barbecue...
[3:56 PM]
Fresh meat ;..;

Varda — Today at 3:58 PM
hehe
[4:00 PM]
It's that time!

Arien  Valar — Today at 4:01 PM
Aiya all

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:01 PM
Aiya!

Varda — Today at 4:02 PM
Aiya : )
[4:02 PM]
@Bounder Huzzah! Valar Guild meeting time! Come say hi, chat gaming and Tolkien, or lurk!
[4:03 PM]

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Elen sila lumenn' omentielov! [Note omentielvo]
[4:03 PM]

Membership:

[4:03 PM]
Aiya Phar and Arien : )

Arien  Valar — Today at 4:03 PM
innocent can I do all of that , honored Valier?
I mean at the same time

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:04 PM
Well, lurking is kinda contrary to the others, hence the "or"

Varda — Today at 4:04 PM
We would be delighted if you did them all at the same time, honored Maia : )
Hmm is there a feminine for Maia? Maier?
Don't remember it being used for Melian. Interesting.

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:05 PM
Maiesse

Varda — Today at 4:05 PM
Valie, Maie?

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:05 PM
Maie works, I guess.
Though Maia always sounded a bit feminine to me.

Varda — Today at 4:06 PM
Maybe since there's no consonant, it doesn't have an ending change?

Arien  Valar — Today at 4:06 PM
not sure even though  i am sure Sandalf, if  he were here , would tell you now, that in German the "Meier" used to be the one who makes butter and cheese in the middle ages
cough

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:07 PM
Maia hee, maia haa...

Varda — Today at 4:07 PM
How are you doing with that butter and cheese?

Arien  Valar — Today at 4:08 PM
lovely stuff on a fresh bread

Varda — Today at 4:08 PM
mmmmm!
adds garlic
[4:09 PM]
Membership stuff. Dis is still trying to prove she's Dis, always an interesting problem. But I'm me! Sure you are.

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:09 PM
I wonder why garlic was assigned as a weak point to the vampire.
Do they not like bad breath?

Varda — Today at 4:09 PM
Meanwhile she's playing a free to play account.

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:09 PM
And are they fine with onions?

Varda — Today at 4:09 PM
Garlic? Bad breath?
O dear. grabs mouthwash
Apparently yes.
[4:10 PM]
Maybe the local witch-doctor had a lot of garlic on the farm needing sold?
Here! This will work!

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:10 PM
Hah, that works.

Varda — Today at 4:11 PM
Sandalf is traveling, but may make it to the meeting a tad late.
He wants to know if anyone took a look at his essay "Last Line in Tolkien".

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:12 PM
I took a gander when it was mentioned in the meeting, but there's way too much stuff in there for me

Varda — Today at 4:12 PM
My first guess when reading the title was it was about Sam's "I'm home."  Much more complicated!
Try just reading the text part. Most of it is tables. There's a Final Reckoning at the end summing up who got the most segment ends.

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:13 PM
Hmm, which wasn't even the original last line, as the epilogue didn't make it in!

Varda — Today at 4:14 PM
He drew a deep breath. "Well, I'm back," he said.
The End
[4:15 PM]
Instead it's an analysis of who closed out each segment, checking for significance.
It seemed there was significance and more than expected. : )
[4:16 PM]
Anyway, on to

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Gaming!

[4:16 PM]
Please feel free to add parts in about games you're playing too!
From Eonwe's Games Site:

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:16 PM
Moment, short addendum if I can confirm it..

Varda — Today at 4:16 PM
Fire away : )
[4:17 PM]
momenting

r-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:18 PM
Right. Speaking of said epilogue, I just went looking for it and found a fan-illustrated version. I don't have the book here with me right now, so while I know it's edited and parts cut for length, I'm not exactly sure to which degree.
But I figured you might like it anyway
https://archiveofourown.org/works/27478819/chapters/72409524
    Sam and Frodo Comics - Chapter 5 - mollyknox - The Lord of...
    An Archive of Our Own, a project of the
    Organization for Transformative Works

Varda — Today at 4:19 PM
Thank you. : )
[4:25 PM]
Ok, to Gaming : )

World of Warcraft:
[4:25 PM]
(which both of you play!)

This week's Bonus Event: Legion Timewalking.
[4:26 PM]
The PvP Brawl: Temple of Hotmogu runs through Tuesday, August 23rd.
Patch 9.2.7 is live this week.
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/23833174/shadowlands-927-update-notes-now-live
    World of Warcraft
    Shadowlands 9.2.7 Update Notes—Now Live! - WoW
    The Shadowlands 9.2.7 update is now live!

[4:26 PM]
The Wrath of the Lich King Classic Pre-patch goes live August 30th.
[4:27 PM]
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/23833257/the-wrath-of-the-lich-king-classic-pre-patch-goes-live-august-30
    World of Warcraft
    The Wrath of the Lich King Classic Pre-Patch Goes Live August 30 - WoW
    The icy winds of Northrend have begun their mournful wail, warning the heroes of Azeroth of the imminent danger the Lich King and his undead Scourge present to all life.
    Gather your allies, stock up on supplies, and prepare to face the threat ahead.

[4:27 PM]
With it comes the Scourge Invasion.
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/23840669/wrath-classic-surviving-the-zombie-infestation-and-scourge-invasion
    World of Warcraft
    Wrath Classic: Surviving the Zombie Infestation and Scourge Invasio...
    The Lich King is poised to strike! Learn how to (maybe) survive the upcoming plague and Scourge invasion in the Wrath of the Lich King Classic™ pre-expansion event.

[4:27 PM]
Check out the blog Wrath Classic Zone Guide: Dragonblight and Grizzly Hills.
[4:28 PM]
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/23840668/wrath-classic-zone-guide-dragonblight-and-grizzly-hills
    World of Warcraft
    Wrath Classic Zone Guide: Dragonblight and Grizzly Hills - WoW
    A look at two more zones for brave heroes of the Alliance and Horde to continue their adventures through Northrend.

[4:28 PM]
Check out the latest hotfixes.
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/23800887/hotfixes-august-18-2022
    World of Warcraft
    Hotfixes: August 18, 2022 - WoW
    Here you will find a list of hotfixes that address various issues related to World of Warcraft: Shadowlands, Burning Crusade Classic, and WoW Classic.

[4:29 PM]
Hey, Phar and Arien? I don't remember. Does it cost you extra money to come onto the US server?
I think it did.

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:29 PM
Probably? I suppose it needs a new account and subscription.

Varda — Today at 4:30 PM
I wondered because Eonwe got left completely alone an awfully long time.
ok

Diablo 3:
[4:30 PM]
Season 27: Light's Calling will begin August 26th.
[4:30 PM]
https://us.diablo3.blizzard.com/en-us/blog/23816414/season-27-light%E2%80%99s-calling-preview-8-15-2022
    Diablo III
    Season 27 Light’s Calling Preview
    The light is calling in Season 27 of Diablo III. Starting on August 26 at 5 p.m. PDT/CEST/KST, you can transform your Legendary items into Sanctified items, collect two new seasonal cosmetic rewards, and more!

[4:31 PM]
Overwatch:
[4:31 PM]
Cross-platform progression will be possible in Overwatch 2.
[4:31 PM]
https://playoverwatch.com/en-us/news/23824001/cross-progression-is-coming-to-overwatch-2-account-merge-faq/
    Overwatch
    Cross-progression is coming to Overwatch 2: Account merge FAQ
    Your data on your Battle.net and console accounts will be merged for Overwatch 2!

[4:31 PM]
Hearthstone:
[4:31 PM]
Patch 24.0.3 is out this week.
[4:32 PM]
https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/news/23840665/24-0-3-patch-notes
    24.0.3 Patch Notes
    Patch 24.0.3, launching today, includes adjustments to Standard, Wild, Battlegrounds, and Duels, as well as a couple bug fixes!

[4:32 PM]
Warcraft 3: Reforged:
[4:32 PM]
Patch 1.33 is out this week.
[4:32 PM]
https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/warcraft3/23816417/warcraft-iii-reforged-patch-1-33-0-now-live
    Warcraftฎ III: Reforged Patch 1.33.0 Now Live
    The latest patch is now live and includes Ranked Play, Player Profiles, Leaderboards, and more.

[4:33 PM]
That's it for the Games Site.
[4:33 PM]
Feel free to send news in maybe with a cc to your's truly for the general News if something cool happens elsewhere like Eve Online, etc. Advertise your game!

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:33 PM
ranked leaderboards? I think people have been waiting for that for a long time

Varda — Today at 4:34 PM
Very good!
[4:34 PM]
Make a bunch of folks happy. : )

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:34 PM
Including the classic portraits, too. Nice.

Varda — Today at 4:34 PM
: )
[4:35 PM]
That's it for the Games Site
http://valarguild.org/gaming/news/2022
    The Valar Guild Games Site
    Valar Guild Games Site

Lord of the Rings Online:
[4:35 PM]
The Crickhollow kin branch is coming together. : )
[4:36 PM]
It should be an auto-invite to the kin for those moving from Anor to Crickhollow unless the name is taken.

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:36 PM
If it's Crickhollow, don't you mean "conspiracy"?

Varda — Today at 4:36 PM
hehe - for sure!
[4:37 PM]
We don't know yet if this is going to affect LotRO in any way, but interesting on its own:
https://www.protocol.com/entertainment/lord-rings-embracer-group
    Protocol
    How Embracer Group bought ‘Lord of the Rings’ rights for a bargain
    The Swedish holding company, known best for its gaming acquisitions, bought the rights to “The Lord of the Rings.” But the deal is much more complicated than it seems.

[4:38 PM]
The various rights still have other owners too. Like Harper-Collins still has the books.
So we'll see.

Landroval kin branch, RP encouraged full server:
Arien
Bregalad
Dis
Eonwe
Fangorn
Nar
Thranduil
Varda

Crickhollow kin branch, full server:
Arien
Falco
Fangorn
Varda

Shadowfax kin branch, fast difficulty sider, VIP required:
Varda

Treebeard kin branch, slow difficulty slider, VIP required:
Varda
[4:39 PM]
Nice to see some rarer names showing up too, such as Bregalad and Thranduil.
I haven't managed to catch Osse yet for an invite. My last check didn't show him out of the intro where he could be kinned yet, but didn't check today.
On August 17th:
The Reward Track has now restarted for the next three-month period, including new rewards, for track number three.
The Virtue cap has increased to 82.
The Legendary Item levels now go up to 480.
[4:40 PM]
Those things have kept us busy all by themselves, scrambling to level them up. : )
Any other gaming news? Any game at all, requests, invites needed?

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:41 PM
Nothing like seasonal reward tracks to get people active

Varda — Today at 4:41 PM
True!

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:41 PM
Works for Hearthstone and Diablo III as well!

Varda — Today at 4:42 PM
We all like to see some kind of progress, rewards, or feel useful somehow. : )
On to

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Tolkien!

[4:43 PM]
Did either of you have a comment, suggestion, Moment? Kind of get drowned out on a normal day sometimes.
(Some of us talk too much. cough)

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:44 PM
Well, one more mention about seasonal rewards, I saw a Diablo 3 blog post and realized that the "cycle" of seasonal rewards is almost round again, which means they may be putting the last cycle's chapter 8 rewards towards chapter 4 from 2 seasons from now.... I might have to start playing seasons again!

Arien  Valar — Today at 4:44 PM
Well, I did come across a certain item while gaming in Lotro earlier this week
[4:45 PM]
an interesting thing
i ll try not to spoil the quest line and tell the end of it but the item involved was called an oathstone
[4:46 PM]
with it apparently Sauron kept control of people he had gotten to swear an oath of fealty for him

Varda — Today at 4:47 PM
Have to watch out for those oath things!

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:47 PM
Almost as bad as riddles.

Arien  Valar — Today at 4:47 PM
in the Book .. Aragon rides to a certain stone where he calls the mountain king of the dead on the paths of the dead remember?>#

Varda — Today at 4:48 PM
Stone of Erech

Arien  Valar — Today at 4:48 PM
the Stone of Erech indeed
was that such an oathstone maybe?

Varda — Today at 4:48 PM
We plopped it down in our kin house yard when Aragorn was through with it. ; )

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:48 PM
Sounds like the idea is based on it, at least.

Varda — Today at 4:49 PM
It was where the oath was made by the oathbreakers. Fitting that it is where they renewed it and finally discharged their duty.
So, it does suggest that oaths might be made on something very noticeable in the environment. That would be a precedent.
[4:50 PM]
The Silmarillion is loaded with actions forced by oaths.

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:50 PM
Swearing an oath on stone does give a certain solidity to it. Etched in stone, as it were.

Varda — Today at 4:50 PM
(Swear not!)
[4:51 PM]
Elrond warned Gimli against having the Fellowship swear an oath. Good thing!

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:51 PM
Good for Rohan, at least

Varda — Today at 4:51 PM
Aye, etched in stone!

Arien  Valar — Today at 4:52 PM
but yeah i wondered where the game got the idea from or is it really Tolkien based?

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 4:53 PM
I do think they had Erech in mind as inspiration of sorts.

Varda — Today at 4:53 PM
The concept of oaths being binding, very Tolkienesque. The Stone of Erech was around a long time too.
[4:54 PM]
Sauron would be very aware of the binding quality of oaths.

Arien  Valar — Today at 4:55 PM
Yeah , but you have to consider that the (spoiler alert) destrucftion of the oath stone meant that parts of the enemy army felt not bound anymore to hang around Barad dur in the battle of the last alliance and returned to their own country

Varda — Today at 4:58 PM
Maybe need to use the power of the Ring to hold such a stone together! Same way as Barad-dur. Stays up until Sauron has no more need of it being "dead".

Arien  Valar — Today at 4:59 PM
all right
[5:00 PM]
was just an intriguing thought , so i wanted to mention it and hear your opinions

Varda — Today at 5:02 PM
Thank you. It is interesting.
[5:03 PM]
One more thing on the Embracer Group, actually on their own website:
https://embracer.com/release/embracer-group-enters-into-agreement-to-acquire-ip-rights-to-the-lord-of-the-rings-and-the-hobbit-literary-works-by-j-r-r-tolkien/
    Embracer Group
    Embracer Group enters into agreement to acquire IP rights to The Lo...

[5:04 PM]
Also comments on the LotRO forum:
[5:04 PM]
https://forums.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?695821-Embracer-Group-to-acquire-IP-rights-to-The-Lord-of-the-Rings-literary-works-by-J-R-R-Tolkien
    Embracer Group to acquire IP rights to The Lord of the Rings liter...
https://embracer.com/release/embracer-group-enters-into-agreement-to-acquire-ip-rights-to-the-lord-of-the-rings-and-the-hobbit-literary-works-by-j-r-r-tolkien

Does this mean anything for Lotro?
[5:04 PM]
It really looks as if it won't hurt our game. : )
Not taking oath on it though! Just looks like we'll be ok.
[5:06 PM]
We have reached the hour.
How does it come up so quickly? : )
[5:08 PM]
the gavel detaches from the sundial on the table
hops over to the hammerpad that is tapping its rim impatiently on the shiny table surface. Is that basalt?
[5:09 PM]
thonkkkk! echoes

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After-meeting!

Pallando-Valar — Today at 5:09 PM
Oh, look, I'm just in time!

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 5:09 PM
Starting to catch geology, Varda?

Arien  Valar — Today at 5:10 PM
hey aiya Palando

Varda — Today at 5:10 PM
Pallando! Aiya : )
My brother was working on his Geology degree. Sandalf is not the only geologist I've been around. ; )
Free chat, Pallando. : )
[5:11 PM]
You can talk Eve or your last fishing trip!

Pallando-Valar — Today at 5:13 PM
sadly no fishing trips recently
had a big fight in eve last night

Varda — Today at 5:14 PM
Sounds as if you've had an adventure!

Pallando-Valar — Today at 5:14 PM
big thing for me now thouigh is that the eve alliance tournament is coming up and we're putting a team in again
so lots of time practicing for that

Varda — Today at 5:20 PM
Sounds like you're busy!

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 5:21 PM
Good luck with the tournament, then

Arien  Valar — Today at 5:22 PM
Good luck indeed

Pallando-Valar — Today at 5:24 PM
The feeder rounds will be on twitch in October, I'll be sure to mention the date/time of our matches once we get there.
Tournament proper is in November, if we make it there.

Varda — Today at 5:27 PM
You will!

Varda — Today at 5:45 PM
Namarie for now

Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 5:45 PM
namarie! will give report soon

Arien  Valar — Today at 5:48 PM
Namarie

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Ar-Pharazon-V — Today at 6:00 PM
Personal gaming report!
[6:01 PM]
For (non)flashgaming, so many good choices this week, though I've linked em all multiple times before, as is getting typical  A bit randomly, I'll give you
https://www.kongregate.com/games/targaciej/hook
    Kongregate
    Hook
    Tiny minimal puzzle game.
    Full version:
    http://playthehook.com

[6:02 PM]
A puzzle game where you have to untangle hooks in order by clicking the connected circles. Mostly it's about figuring which one tangles where, but occasionally some timing is necessary as well.
[6:03 PM]
That said, you can generally take your time to figure things out, no rush, and the whole vibe of the game, including the sound effects, is about relaxation.
[6:08 PM]

Blizzard gaming:
[6:09 PM]
Hearthstone:
Level 47 on the reward track. Still doing my quests!
[6:10 PM]
Including an event-related quest (I used to call them legendary, but I don't think they're called that anymore) about playing 3 Location cards.
[6:11 PM]
Since I had no Location cards yet - and found out that each class has exactly one, though I guess you can have 2 of those in your deck - I opened and bought and opened some packs for this expansion, until I got one so I could play 3 games with it.
Good thing I have more gold than I know what to do with
[6:13 PM]
Along the way for those packs I got a legendary hunter minion, Ara'lon, who Shadowlands players may remember from Ardenweald. He has some synergy with Wildseeds, which I've not encountered in the packs yet, so no sense using him. Still, a legendary!
[6:14 PM]
In any case, once I got a Location, luckily the quest did not take very long
[6:16 PM]
Brawl is the Chess one, where you get the decks from Medivh's chessboard, but with 6 cards of your choosing added in. Picked up some charge minions, hoping they would catch the enemy by surprise, but as it turned out, the win I got was mainly through the chess element after all.
[6:18 PM]
Still no mercs this week, still rather busy with parents and watching some tv shows that we watch together... basically a bit of catchup from the previous few weeks of vacation. And I must admit, I don't really see the urgency of getting back into mercs when there's other stuff to do. I still like the game mode, so I will be getting back to it, but it might be a few weeks more.
[6:19 PM]
Maybe when the heat dies down and I'm less tired all day... maybe?
WoW:
[6:20 PM]
More raiding! And it's going about as well as it went the week before. We cleared Sanctum easily on tuesday, and started fated Sepulcher on thursday, clearing 6 out of 10 bosses. The wings are down, and we find ourselves in front of Anduin for the final stretch.
[6:21 PM]
7 out of 11, sorry. I knew my math was off somewhere.
[6:22 PM]
In any case, since we've not even tried the Jailer in the past, I doubt we'll clear the bunch on tuesday, but Anduin, Lords of Dread and Rygelon should be doable. If we do get the Jailer, it means we'll get our slimesaber mount already, but I suspect it'll take a few more upgrades and rotations to make that work for us.
[6:23 PM]
Weekly is timewalks, which I completed tonight, for which I got... the Jailer's weapon. Normal fated, which means it's worse than the weapon I got for the weekly quest last week. But it's still a unique item with a nice appearance, so there's that.
[6:26 PM]
And I got enough anima to buy the most expensive soulshape from the anima vendors (that I know of), which is the ram. Two more soulshapes to go for 30000 total, after which I'm pretty much done with anima on my main. I suspect after that I'll stop doing missions and wildseeds, since I haven't gotten a new weapon appearance for several patches anyway, and I suspect those were updated out of the wildseeds at one point.
Should save me some time on a daily basis.
[6:27 PM]
I did get my paladin started again, completing the penitent hunt, switching sides, taking down the Fearstalker and making my way into the Ember Ward. Surely her adventures with the amiable "Mad Duke" Theotar shall be glorious
[6:32 PM]
and that's my report for the week!

Sandalf13 — Today at 6:57 PM
Is anyone still here?

Varda — Today at 7:16 PM
I'm back
Welcome back, Sandalf : )
[7:17 PM]
Phar, thanks for the report. : )

Sandalf13 — Today at 7:38 PM
Hello Varda! I am safely at home  in Lincoln. IT was a wonderful trip, but I am still glad and thankful to be home.

Varda — Today at 7:56 PM
Huzzah!

Sandalf13 — Today at 7:57 PM
As you know, I had to leave the Buick in NY for some engine work. I will fly back to NY on 14 or 15 Sep for a QUICK trip to pick the car up and drive it back to Nebraska.

Varda — Today at 7:57 PM
What fun. eww

Sandalf13 — Today at 7:57 PM
Chapter Two looks lovely. You did some great work getting the entire thing formatted. I hope that the other chapters you have will go a lot easier for you.

Varda — Today at 7:58 PM
They will. : )
Getting the meeting transcript set up to go online right now.

Sandalf13 — Today at 8:00 PM
I am working on Chapters 7, 8, 9, and the Introduction. Like my book, the Introduction will be idiosyncratic. I am going to aim for only four or five influences on Tolkien and his work that I think may be unique perspectives. We All know that the War no doubt very strongly influenced him, as well as his deep Catholicism. I don't think I can add anything to the scholarly work that discusses those influences...but what about Immanuel Kant, and Cesar Franck? I will bet that no has yet suggested those influences...although I very well could be wrong.

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