Valar Guild

September 19, 2021 Sunday Meeting

5:00 P.M. Eastern Daylight Savings Time

Discord: Valar Guild/meeting_place

Back to News
Transcript work by Varda.
[times are Central Time from Varda's Discord. Add one hour for Eastern.]

Attending (and typed): (6)
    Discord: Arien, Ar-Pharazon, Eonwe (presiding), Irmo, Shelob, Varda (after After)
Before-meeting
    The Nature of Middle-Earth bits of info scattered throughout the transcript, but collected under "Tolkien" below.
Meeting begins
Membership news:
    Ar-Pharazon's computer problem. (After-meeting)
Web:
Gaming:
    General news:
        report from Eonwe: World of Warcraft
Tolkien:
    Topic from Eonwe: nuggets of info from the new book: The Nature of Middle-Earth. (More scattered in later.)
        Numenoreans and wild animals.
        Numenorians and crossbows.
        Elves and fungi/mushrooms.
        Elvish growth and aging. (After-meeting)
        Elvish "death".
        Elvish growth and aging (more).
        Lembas.
After-meeting:
    (non)Flashgaming Reviews (plus) by Ar-Pharazon. Includes Blizzard games.
    New website preserving real flashgaming: BlueMaxima's Flashpoint.

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Before-meeting
Eonwë Valar — 09/17/2021
I got my copy of Nature of Middle-Earth today. just randomly opening the book and reading tidbits is turning up wonderfully golden tidbits. I'm still expecting to come across some mithril at this rate.

Eonwë Valar — 09/17/2021
An interesting tidbit here:
(Numenorean) Women loved more the wild (or "unowned") birds and beasts, and they were especially fond of squirrels, of which there were great numbers in the wooded country.
[2:52 AM]
So, ladies and gents, allow me to introduce you to a Numenorean woman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcNkanA53Fc
    YouTube
    CurlySVT
    Snow white - Whistle while you work

Eonwë Valar — 09/17/2021
Numenoreans had crossbows.
[3:24 AM]
Aw, Elves apparently don't like funguses/mushrooms.

Eonwë Valar — 09/17/2021
(And yes, of course I know it's "fungi", but "funguses" is more fun to say, heh.)

September 18, 2021

Eonwë Valar — 09/18/2021
There's alot to absorb in this book.

September 19, 2021

Shelob — 09/19/2021
Most Numenoreans were fair haired though.
[5:08 AM]
https://www.thetolkienforum.com/threads/numenoreans-hair-color.19779/
    🧙 The Tolkien Forum 🧝
    Númenóreans Hair color
    Basically my question is wouldn't many Numenoreans have light hair? They were made up of Edain. The House of Hador was the most numerous and predominantly Blond haired there population must have been severly decimated.     But the House of Beor's population was also decimated and there population...

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCCxnuLlS18
    YouTube
    Disney
    Sleeping Beauty | Once Upon A Dream | Lyric Video | Disney Sing Along

[6:55 AM]
Better? :}

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
I should be at the meeting tonight, but just in case, Gaming News is up.

Arien Valar — 09/19/2021
aiya

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Heya all.
[4:05 PM]
We'll begin the meeting shortly.
[4:06 PM]
@Bounder Meeting beginning shortly.

Irmo — 09/19/2021
Heya and bya, just saying greetings and off to sleep, early work tomorrow

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Sleep well Irmo.

Irmo — 09/19/2021
Thankee!

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
OK, let's begin the meeting.
[4:09 PM]

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Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
[4:09 PM]
Membership:
[4:09 PM]
If you're here, Say Manwë
[4:12 PM]
Guess I'm the only one here, heh.
[4:13 PM]
Irmo was here, Arien was here. Phar seems to be busy. Varda is out in the real world journeying home right now.
[4:14 PM]

Web:
[4:14 PM]
No web news.
[4:14 PM]

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Gaming:
[4:14 PM]
*World of Warcraft:**
[4:15 PM]
The Harvest Festival has begun and runs through Friday, November 24th.

The week's bonus event: World Quests.

The PvP Brawl: Temploe of Hotmogu is going until Tuesday, September 21st.

The Burning Crusade Classic patch Overlords of Outland is now live. ---
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/23721821/burning-crusade-classic-overlords-of-outland-now-live
    World of Warcraft
    Burning Crusade Classic: Overlords of Outland Now Live - WoW
    Bring down Illidan Stormrage’s lieutenants and challenge the rule of the Overlords of Outland today!

Check out this week's hotfixes. ---
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/23691036/hotfixes-september-16-2021
    World of Warcraft
    Hotfixes: September 16, 2021 - WoW
    Here you will find a list of hotfixes that address various issues related to World of Warcraft: Shadowlands, Burning Crusade Classic, and WoW Classic.

[4:16 PM]

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Tolkien:
[4:18 PM]
Got my copy of The Nature of Middle-Earth. I'd agree with Phar. Lots of nuggets of gold in here. Nothing mithril perhaps, that is - something that fundamentally changes our understanding, but definitely some things that offer insight or extra knowledge that's fun to have.
[4:20 PM]
Since there's no one else here to comment, I guess I'll leave it there :}

Arien Valar — 09/19/2021
I haven t got it yet :(

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
No worries.. Gave a few tidbits during the week above, and a joke or two, heh.
[4:22 PM]
Before I declare Aftermeeting, anything Tolkien-related you care to comment on, Arien?
[4:26 PM]
OK, I guess not :}
[4:27 PM]
Ok then.
[4:27 PM]
Bangs Gavel
[4:27 PM]

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It's now
Aftermeeting:

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Aiya!
[4:28 PM]
Sorry I'm late (aftermeeting, that late?) but had some pc trouble after windows updates earlier today.
[4:29 PM]
Disabling "app readiness" seems to have fixed it.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Heya Phar.
[4:29 PM]
Glad you made it at all, heh.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Hmhm
[4:30 PM]
I just got a year and a half worth's of W10 updates today, after getting the message that it hadn't worked for all that time and I was losing support for that version.
[4:30 PM]
And then there was the dreaded "black screen with cursor" which I had to solve.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Heh, nice to find out now.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Hmhm. Apparently an incompatible old app was the trouble for those updates, and the readiness... well, something seems to clash there I guess.
[4:31 PM]
Seems good now.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Good.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Anyway, grats on the book And yeah, I noticed the squirrels too, I think it was right below the bears.
[4:32 PM]
Also, I've never actually seen sleeping beauty - though I know the story and we had a disney children's book out of a large series concerning the story - but that song is still familiar!

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
:}
[4:34 PM]
My usual exposure to it these days is as part of the Disney Halloween, where they show the fight between the prince and Malificent in dragon form.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
I did see Maleficent though. The movie. So that might be part of it.
[4:34 PM]
Ah

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Haven't actually seen it in a long time, but I should probably remedy that.
[4:34 PM]
So the fact that song sticks with me is probably impressive, heh.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
It's also possible that we danced to it somewhere in my 16 years of styledancing. It's a good vienna waltz.
[4:36 PM]
That would probably be an instrumental version then.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Did you all have owls in red coats as partners too? :}

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Afraid not

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Well darn :}
[4:37 PM]
I'm beginning to think that might be some sort of fairy tale :}
[4:41 PM]
On a more serious note, I have been skimming through the book all week, reading it on a decidedly more "research" level than I usually read a book. Some of the early drafts about Elvish growth and aging is just... wow.. If some of that made it to final draft, it'd be like Elves were designed to fail. I don't see how they could survive as a species in Arda Marred.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
I haven't really delved into that much, but the way you phrase it reminds me of the Errant Story webcomic were Elves had designflaws that actually did set them up for inevitable failure.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
9-12 year pregnancies, (12 x #of children) years off in between each where they had no interest in it, hundreds of years to adulthood. On top of that their inclination to not have children during times of strife (understandable given the first point, but still).

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Though the dwarves had it worse; they were never able to reproduce, so despite their unaging their fall was inevitable as well. For elves it just took a few ages for their reproductive cycle to fail. [Note: comic]
[4:45 PM]
Ah, yes.
[4:45 PM]
Interesting when you face 600 if not 3000 years of strife.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
I must've missed the part about Dwarves not reproducing at all.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
No, that was the comic

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Oh, pardon.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Sorry for the confusion

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
No worries. We sorted it out rather quick :}

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
12 year pregnancies.
[4:48 PM]
I'm surprised they had kids as well.
[4:48 PM]
The last few years must have been horrible.
[4:48 PM]
*at all

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Apparently there was no pain during childbirth, but I can see after that long why they might need a few years off, both the man and the woman, heh.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
12 years of food cravings.

Arien Valar — 09/19/2021
men ..... that s the easy part

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Are you kidding? We need to paint the nursery!

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Supporting a pregnant woman physically/spiritually/emotionally for 12 years? I'm sure that's not as easy as it may sound :}

Arien Valar — 09/19/2021
nausea ... swollen feet , moodiness that is the true hardship of pregnancy not to mention the inability to bend

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
And who has to deal with the moodiness, hm?
[4:53 PM]
Who takes the brunt of it?

Arien Valar — 09/19/2021
okay okay you win

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
"No dear, you still look great. Yes dear, that still fits. Yes, the pants must've shrunk in the dryer."

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
No, dear, that is not what makes you look fat.

Arien Valar — 09/19/2021
chuickles

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
"No one will notice that you have one blue pantleg and one green pant leg. No one will wonder how you managed that at all."

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
"Don't worry, nobody'll be looking at your feet anyway.
[4:55 PM]
...I'd make a terrible dad to be.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
I'm sure you'd do fine once the "to be" part ended.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Hehe, don't be so sure. I'm not good with kids. Don't have the patience for em. And my interest is low enough as well, I shrug off babypictures for a start.
[4:58 PM]
Of course with the right person thinks about crush I'd probably be willing to give it a try. And I'm willing to admit it'd probably be different if it was my own.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Well, there's a difference between your kids and other peoples'kids :}
[4:59 PM]
Heh, you beat me to it :}

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
hehe
[4:59 PM]
Oh, if I had a kid, I'd love it to bits. I'm not saying I'm capable of being a good father or teaching it what it needs, but I'd certainly do my best.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
That's all anyone can do.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
I'd probably be count on its mother to compensate for my flaws...
[5:00 PM]
*counting

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
And you would have to compensate for hers. Nobody's perfect. That's how it works.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Would be nice

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Everyone brings something to the table.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Of course! An extra pair of hands, at least.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Your unique knowledge and experience, for another.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
nods I can teach it to play WoW

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Bah on anyone trying to say dads aren't important.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Oh, I'm not saying dads in general aren't important.
[5:04 PM]
I just doubt my own competence and probably for good reason
[5:04 PM]
But yes, like you said, all we can do is try.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
I have every confidence that if you found yourself in that position, you'd be fine, specifically because you would be doing everything you could to do your best, knowing your own limits.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
I'll take it

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
:}
[5:07 PM]
Anyway, another thing brought to the forefront of my mind by reading NoME (Amusing abbreviation, hehe) is this:

Arien Valar — 09/19/2021

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
When Elves die, the summons to Mandos is a command, but it can still be refused. Usually if it's refused that means the Elf was already under the Shadow in some capacity, perhaps unrepentant of some evil deeds. (edited)

Arien Valar — 09/19/2021
unfortunately .. i am mortal and stilll need physical rest

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Fëanor, however did go to Mandos, which means he had to have accepted the summons and the judgement of the Valar.

Arien Valar — 09/19/2021
and .. the night is short

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Namarie, Arien!
[5:10 PM]
and full of terrors?

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Sleep well Arien so that you may brighten tomorrow :}

Arien Valar — 09/19/2021
so ... namarie un til the next time :
[5:10 PM]

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Namarië :}

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Perhaps Feanor was convinced he'd done all he could and didn't fear the judgement, or was too proud not to face it. Too convinced that he was doing the right thing.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
I wonder. Perhaps free of the veil of the body, he was able to see more clearly what he did.
[5:13 PM]
You could be right. It could be a matter of pride.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Could be. At least he was never in any way loyal to Morgoth, so he was less so under his influence.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
But it would seem to me Fëanor, if anyone, would be proud enough to refuse the summons from Mandos and still also refuse the counter-summons from Morgoth.
[5:15 PM]
A whole what-if speculative fiction could be written on what Fëanor might be up to as a Houseless in Middle-Earth during the First Age.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Haunting Morgoth. Wooooo. Give up the Silmarils. Wooooo.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Lol.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Some of the Elven growth and aging stuff was also interesting. Utilizing the info that at least makes the most sense if I wanted to apply it to Auros (and assuming I understand it properly enough to do the math right: 10:1 growth years and 100:1 adult years ratios compared to Men), he would be somewhere around the physical equivalent of 45-50 physical years by the time of our RP. By the standards Tolkien sets that's still in one's prime. (edited)
[5:29 PM]
That does seem to disagree with statements in "Laws and Customs" about Elves being "full grown" in 100 years, if we're assuming "full grown" means reached the age of adulthood, and that we're talking about solar years.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
I think some inconsistency is to be expected in these works.
[5:30 PM]
They represent ideas, after all.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Indeed.
[5:30 PM]
Just fun to crunch the numbers a little bit sometimes and see how it works out.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Hmhm
[5:31 PM]
Can use it to your advantage in rp as well.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
By those ratios, a "young" elf in the Third Age, old enough to go to war, would have at least been born more than 240 years prior to the WotR assuming male maturity at 24 "growth years" with the 10:1 ratio.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Sounds okay.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
If we say the "50 years to full maturity" mentioned in Laws and customs was "physical age" then that would be (24 x 10) + (26 x 100) which means that you'd pretty much have to be born at the beginning of the Third Age to reach that by the end. Seems a bit extreme.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Myeah.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
Seeing those as solar years means that while Elves do take longer to mature, it's not at a rate that would make it completely improbable for them to grow as a people, either in times of peace, or with some concerted effort in times of war and strife.

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Reminded of pandas. How they've survived so long with their abysmal reproductive rates...
[5:44 PM]
I've no idea.

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
They probably don't taste good? :}

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
hehe
[5:45 PM]
they taste like bamboo

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
hehe
[5:47 PM]
Reminds me of a comment I once made, that if we "are what we eat" we should be eating lions instead of shrimp. To which the person I said that to promptly (and apparently seriously) replied. "I don't know. I'm a vegetarian."

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
I'd watch out of espionage if I was you.
[5:48 PM]
Because that person is clearly a plant

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
lol :}

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Award for worst pun of the day goes to...

Eonwë Valar — 09/19/2021
:}

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
Personal gaming report!
[7:45 PM]
Before we dive into (non)flashgaming, I'd like to mention something about actual flashgaming.
[7:46 PM]
This week I was looking for 3D Logic, a puzzle flashgame I'd played years ago and couldn't play on kongregate anymore because it's a flashgame but didn't work with their Supernova portal.
[7:47 PM]
And someone in the comments suggested Flashpoint, a large archive/launcher set up to gather up all the flashgames that would no longer work and make them available to people who still wanted to play them.
[7:48 PM]
https://bluemaxima.org/flashpoint/ for people who want it
    BlueMaxima's Flashpoint
    A webgame preservation project and archive.
[7:48 PM]
So I downloaded the Infinity version, which is the version that doesn't actually include the 700gb worth of games, but gives you the launcher and the ability to download them from the internet when you search for them.
[7:49 PM]
And there I found the puzzle game, its sequel, and various other games that I like but didn't work anymore, like the Papa Louie series
[7:49 PM]
So for flashgamefans, give it a go!
[7:51 PM]
Now for the (non)flashgaming: 3 old games among the Kongregate badges for this week

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
https://www.kongregate.com/games/eddynardo/sleepy-knight for the first game! One of a series of gimmicky platformers, the first one in fact, wherein you have to make your way through 15 simple levels and open all the chests.
    Kongregate
    Sleepy Knight
    Simple platform game about a knight that is sleeping all day and….night.
    Created by eddynardo
    Graphics by 0x72 and Adam Saltsman
    Theme song quotWeeklybeats 2014...

[8:01 PM]
In this one, you've got a knight in a bed which you have to drop at the right spot to wake him and let him run through the level. Additional mechanics show up later!

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
https://www.kongregate.com/games/EPGstudios/5-step-steve is the second game, a puzzle maze game where you play a cat called Steve who can only take 5 steps between the purple flags, serving as checkpoints.
    Kongregate
    5 Step Steve
    A crew of kittens need rescuing. Dozens of puzzles stand in your way. And you only have 5 steps to solve them.

[8:13 PM]
Get acquainted with all the mechanics and save all the kittens in all the puzzle rooms

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
and https://www.kongregate.com/games/KekGames/rhomb for the last game, a puzzle game where you have to untie a tangle of rhombuses by finding the right order to click them in. More mechanics introduced later like toggles, halfway marks, etc
    Kongregate
    Rhomb
    Untie a knot of rhombuses.

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[8:24 PM]
Blizzard gaming:
[8:25 PM]
Hearthstone:
Level 76 on the reward track now, things seem to be slowing down! Or I just had fast quests this week that didn't require many games.
[8:27 PM]
Brawl is party portals, with Medivh playing against Medivh and both players having a deck full of random portals and a few partygoers. Randomness of course, but it didn't take me too long, and I managed to complete an arcane spell daily quest I got this week as well this way, since a bunch of the portals are arcane
[8:28 PM]
WoW:
[8:30 PM]
We unlocked the shortcut in the raid, being able to go from the first boss straight to the last two bosses, which helps a bit with practice and gearing there. So that's another Kel'thuzad and Sylvanas kill. Got a new chestpiece from Sylvie, leading me to now having 1 for each spec, which had me shift a few Shards of Domination around so I have to only switch one shard as I switch spec.
[8:31 PM]
Went back to Torghast, which went rather well as I got my first flawless run, at layer 10 difficulty. I haven't unlocked the Vaults yet in the Box of Many Things, so it didn't give me access, but it's a nice milestone, and gave me a nice amount of Tower Knowledge for said box.
[8:33 PM]
Got my renown to 64, enhancing some soulbind conduits. They're nice perks, but not too gamechanging.
[8:33 PM]
Weekly is world quests, which started off well, but I only had to do a few in the last few days, so I will probably end up doing extra quests on tuesday to complete the quest.
[8:34 PM]
And finally I got 2 more weapon appearances from the renown vendor for anima, 1 to go
[8:35 PM]
And that will be it for the most expensive/diverse anima vendor, though there's still a few with expensive arsenals out there, so I'm not done with anima yet.
[8:36 PM]
And that's my report for the week!

Ar-Pharazon-V — 09/19/2021
namarie

Varda — 09/19/2021
Aiya and namarie : )

September 22, 2021

Eonwë Valar — Today at 4:50 AM
Tidbit from NoME, after some context:
[4:52 AM]
Quite a while back, before Discord even, we had a discussion on Arwen and making lembas. The exact details escape me after this long, but when I came across this in NoME, I couldn't help but be reminded we had some debate on the subject. So now here's the info, then a quote ---
[4:54 AM]
Lembas is made from a special wheat that came from Aman, brought by the Noldor. By the time of the WotR, it only grew in Lothlorien. Galadriel was one of the chief inheritors of the wheat and the art of making Lembas...
[4:57 AM]

"and the art was known only to herself, and her daughter Celebrian (wife of Elrond) and her daughter Arwen. With Galadriel's departure and the death of Arwen, the Western Corn (note:wheat) and Waybread were lost forever in Middle-Earth."

[5:01 AM]
So, Arwen knew how to make it, would have to have made it at some point (while learning how at least), and possibly knew the art of growing the wheat. The question then becomes did Arwen grow it while living in Gondor, or was it not able to be grown there. It would seem to me that Arwen would've passed the knowledge on to one or all of her daughters if there was still some use to it.

Eonwë Valar — Today at 5:08 AM
If Arwen had some in Gondor, was just no one capable of growing it when she passed, even her daughters? If she didn't, did Galadriel use the last of it to make the lembas for the Fellowship (the idea of which I kinda like as it's kinda like she's putting all her bets and all her hopes on their success, considering having food like lembas would be quite useful for a population in exile if Sauron won), or did she just take all of it with her when she sailed West?

Shelob — Today at 7:38 AM
I think we might need to consider the fact that due to Nenya (I think) time affected Lothlorien differently, and was thereby sort of undying land, which might explain why Lembas wheat could grow there but nowhere else?

Eonwë Valar — Today at 7:47 AM
That can't be ruled out. I meant to mention that in the same essay, it mentions the fact that it didn't fail on the Noldorin exiles (apparently) because of a special grace by Manwë and Varda, so this may be for similar reason. Galadriel after all was the last remaining of the chiefs of the Noldorin Exiles.
[7:47 AM]
It may be as simple as that.
[7:49 AM]
Once she was gone, that grace on the wheat was withdrawn, so even if any remained, it would not have maintained its "vigour" as it's put.

Shelob — 09/23/2021
That is quite possibly true. It might have passed, but since Arwen chose the Doom of Men, she might technically not have been counted as Noldor. And that is if she ever was counted as one of the Noldor, because Celebrían might be, but Elrond is of the line of Elwë.
Although I just read that after the death of Gil-Galad Elrond was offered (or inherited), but never claimed, the High Kingship of the Noldor. (edited)

Eonwë Valar — 09/23/2021
Elrond through Earendil his father was also descended from Idril, daughter of Turgon.

Eonwë Valar — 09/23/2021
The monarchy would've been between him and Galadriel at that point, so it makes sense. He likely wielded a great deal of influence even without claiming the title.
September 24, 2021

@Eonwë Valar
Elrond through Earendil his father was also descended from Idril, daughter of Turgon.

Shelob — 09/24/2021
I should not have forgotten this.

@Eonwë Valar
The monarchy would've been between him and Galadriel at that point, so it makes sense. He likely wielded a great deal of influence even without claiming the title.

Shelob — 09/24/2021
Yes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCCbEvV_6yQ
    YouTube
    In Deep Geek
    How powerful was Elrond?

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