Valar Guild

July 30, 2017 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (UTC/GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Arien, Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (4)
    AIM: Arien, Ar-Pharazon, Eonwe, Varda (presiding)
    Discord: Varda
    LotRO: Varda

Meeting begins
    General gaming report by Eonwe
    New game coming out: Legends of Equestria. Report by Ar-Pharazon
    Topic:  How did the elven Rings affect the elves' development?
    More Tolkien chat.
    Flashgaming Review by Ar-Pharazon

(Times Central)
Varda Valar (15:45:45):    Aiya
Arien V (16:00:02):    aiya all
Varda Valar (16:00:15):    Aiya Arien :)
Varda Valar (16:00:30):    Not sure Phar is with us. Video card may be out.
Arien V (16:00:48):    ah right
Varda Valar (16:00:50):    Eonwe figured is probably at work
Varda Valar (16:01:04):    Do you see Phar online? your turn to give him a poke, maybe?
Arien V (16:01:27):    he was last on 2 hours ago
Varda Valar (16:01:43):    Thank you. :)
Varda Valar (16:01:58):    Pretty empty on the Discord side too.

Varda Valar (16:02:09):    Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
Varda Valar (16:02:15):    Membership:
Varda Valar (16:02:24):    The sun and stars are here at the same time. :)

Varda Valar (16:02:31):    Web:
Varda Valar (16:02:40):    Nothing new up on the Tolkien site.
ArPharazon-V (16:02:48):    Aiya!
Varda Valar (16:02:50):    News up for the Games site though.
Varda Valar (16:02:52):    Phar!
Varda Valar (16:02:59):    How's your computer doing?
Arien V (16:03:37):    Phar your back :)
ArPharazon-V (16:03:41):    Eh. Video card's broken in a way, won't react to drivers well, and it's dying anyway.
ArPharazon-V (16:03:53):    and yes, I've been in the room for over half an hour, just afk :)
ArPharazon-V (16:04:17):    Anyway, I'm here without drivers, low resolution, not playing games much, in fact, all I've got open now is this messenger :)
Varda Valar (16:04:27):    o good. Glad you could make it.
EonweValar (16:04:29):    Heya all.
Varda Valar (16:04:36):    Eonwe, just in time. :)
ArPharazon-V (16:04:43):    Got a new video card ordered, should arrive during the week; after I return from vacation on friday or saturday it should be fixed.
Varda Valar (16:04:45):    About to go to Gaming News
Varda Valar (16:04:58):    Ah, a nice thing to return home to. :)
ArPharazon-V (16:05:10):    With all that, I think I'll postpone this transcript too, and might as well send you a triple one next week ;)
Arien V (16:05:34):    heya Eonwe :)
ArPharazon-V (16:05:54):    And yeah, Arien, I was online in WoW for a bit, checking mail... but only on the lowest graphic quality, no raiding or anything.
Varda Valar (16:06:00):    I'm picking them off the chat room and putting them up. No worries. Sure will be nice to have your much cleaner ones when you're back though!
Arien V (16:06:12):    okay

Varda Valar (16:07:31):    Eonwe has the Games Report. :)
EonweValar (16:07:45):    Thanks :}
ArPharazon-V (16:07:54):    I can tell you for gaming and personal gaming news that I haven't really done anything except a few browser games and that WoW mail checking thing... but I do have a bit of general news I'll give when there's a window open for me :)
Varda Valar (16:08:42):    You can do your general after Eonwe, might need to remind me!

EonweValar (16:08:43):   
World of Warcraft:
EonweValar (16:09:16):    This week's bonus event is World Quests.
Raid Finder Wing 3 is open this week.
EonweValar (16:10:02):    More hotfixes. (Most recent for the week.)

EonweValar (16:10:34):   
Heroes of the Storm:
ArPharazon-V (16:11:00):    Heh, I'll have so many hotfixes to read about when I get back next weekend... I've been neglecting it this week because everything works so slowly ;)
EonweValar (16:11:03):    Check out the recent balance updates.

EonweValar (16:11:24):   
EonweValar (16:11:51):    A new comic series is out: Chilling Tales From the Tavern. Three are up so far.
EonweValar (16:12:10):    Check out the Hearthside Chat with Dave Kosak.
Also out: Icecrown Tours - Part 2.
ArPharazon-V (16:12:27):    comic series? Oh, looking forward to seeing those...
Varda Valar (16:12:41):    Phar posting time. :)

EonweValar (16:13:13):    Bonus News: Mordor expansion for Lord of the Rings Online is coming Monday. Servers will be down then for the update.
ArPharazon-V (16:13:19):    Sorry for the interrupts ;)
EonweValar (16:13:50):    Thus ends my report.

Varda Valar (16:14:02):    Thenk you, Eonwe. :)
Varda Valar (16:14:15):    Phar, would you like to add your general gaming news?
ArPharazon-V (16:14:20):    Sure.

ArPharazon-V (16:14:55):    Right now we're a bit between the announcement and the actual release, but I only just caught up on it the week before my card died and I'd forgotten to mention it last time...
ArPharazon-V (16:15:43):    but Legends of Equestria, the big MLP MMO that I've been following for years, and participated in a few open server tests with, is now preparing for the Open Access Release.
Varda Valar (16:15:51):    Ah hah!
Varda Valar (16:16:10):    Get past the llicensing issues?
ArPharazon-V (16:16:41):    After a closed beta sort of thing that's been happening over some months, it will now be available for anyone to play, though they want to continue adding content as we go. Just like an actual MMO ;)
ArPharazon-V (16:17:09):    Well, they've been avoiding trademarked names and characters, and haven't had a cease & desist letter yet, so it's looking good!
ArPharazon-V (16:17:28):    So yeah, the "real" release date will be on August 19 for those interested!
Varda Valar (16:17:33):    Would be cool if they could get a real license.
ArPharazon-V (16:17:48): for more information
ArPharazon-V (16:18:08):    Hmm, they'd probably have to give up a lot of control over the game if that was the case. But as it is, they can do what they want so far, and it's free :)
ArPharazon-V (16:18:44):    And that's my news!
Varda Valar (16:19:04):    Thank you, Phar. A new game is big news. ::)

Varda Valar (16:19:07):    LotRO:
Varda Valar (16:19:17):    The Mordor expansion is coming.
Varda Valar (16:19:32):    But it will be delayed a little. Monday was the plan.
Varda Valar (16:19:57):    This news from a Dev:
ArPharazon-V (16:19:59):    (afk a bit, back in 5 minutes, I'll hop into whatever topic's going on)
Varda Valar (16:20:00):   

We are as excited as many of you to get into Mordor, but we have some unfortunate news: we have to adjust the release date. While preparing over the weekend to release the expansion on Monday, we discovered an issue in the build that impacted the ability of monsters and NPCs to move around correctly. This problem was specifically identified in older content.

While correcting this issue is not a problem, the process to correct it takes too long to be able to release Mordor on Monday. So, we have to adjust the release date. We will have more info on the release date soon. We will know a lot more in the next 24 hours or so, and will pass along the info as soon as we can.


Varda Valar (16:20:59):    Some of us have gotten the expansion pre-ordered, scattered across the cheapest, middle, or the top version that have been mentioned so far. Helps keep Standing Stone Games going.
Varda Valar (16:21:15):    In LotRO this past week, we saw:

Varda Valar (16:21:58):    In WoW:
Varda Valar (16:22:03):   
Varda Valar (16:22:09):    In SCBW:
Varda Valar (16:22:17):   
Varda Valar (16:22:23):    In SC2:
Varda Valar (16:22:31):   
Varda Valar (16:22:39):    Feel free to add in more!
Varda Valar (16:27:21):    If there is no furhter news or business or suggestions?
Varda Valar (16:27:26):    then

Varda Valar (16:27:29):    Tolkien!
Varda Valar (16:27:43):    Here's a topic from Eonwe. ;)
Varda Valar (16:28:03):    How did the elven Rings affect the elves' development?
Varda Valar (16:29:38):    First, the Rings' existence meant they were interacting with Sauron, learning from him.
Varda Valar (16:30:07):    Apparently he worked in a coding virus for all the Rings made to let them hook into the One Ring later.
ArPharazon-V (16:30:12):    Strange to call it "development" when the primary effect was conservation :)
Varda Valar (16:30:16):    No telling what else he slipped in.
Varda Valar (16:30:20):    There you go!
Varda Valar (16:30:35):    They seemed to become stagnant if they had a Ring.
Varda Valar (16:31:10):    Trying to keep what they used to have, rather than the old pushing forward with new crafts.
ArPharazon-V (16:31:10):    And yes, though Sauron had no part in the making of the 3, Celebrimbor did use his teachings... I guess he failed to catch that loophole :)
Arien V (16:31:16):    one ring to rule them one ring to bind them one ring to enthrall and in darkness bind them ..
Varda Valar (16:31:32):    Aye
Varda Valar (16:31:55):    The three Elven Rings, although not made by Sauron, could be seen and acted through by Sauron.
Arien V (16:32:01):    .. *to enthrall them all . my pardon*
Varda Valar (16:32:10):    So the elves had to stop wearing them for a long time.
Varda Valar (16:32:36):    Once Sauron was put away for a good long while, they started using them.
ArPharazon-V (16:32:54):    While the Ring was lost, at least.
Varda Valar (16:33:18):    Aye. Seemed safe enough.
Varda Valar (16:33:52):    I wonder if Gollum ever picked up anything elvish through them, maybe a sense of belonging.
Varda Valar (16:34:06):    That could have added to the pull from Sauron's side of the Ring.
Varda Valar (16:34:25):    What effects did the Rings have on Elvish civlizations?
Arien V (16:35:30):    they protected each other kind of
Varda Valar (16:35:50):    You mean the elves and the Rings?
Arien V (16:35:57):    the rings protected and preserved them or gave them invisibility and yes
Arien V (16:36:14):    and the Elves protected the rings lest they fall into the wrong hands
ArPharazon-V (16:36:47):    Interesting interaction.
Arien V (16:37:04):    Cirion kept his ring secret in the Grey Havens for a long time right?#
Varda Valar (16:37:17):    Did the elven rings give invisibility? I don't remember that happening
Arien V (16:37:18):    until it was needed elsewhere
ArPharazon-V (16:37:33):    Galadriel wasn't invisible, at least.
ArPharazon-V (16:37:37):    Nor was Gandalf for that matter.
Arien V (16:37:37):    i am not sure either probably not actually
Varda Valar (16:37:49):    He handed it over to Gandalf who would have greater need of it
Varda Valar (16:38:00):    Elrond was visible
Arien V (16:38:08):    no Gandalf never was invisible and neither was Eonwe
Arien V (16:38:16):    Elrond i mean
Varda Valar (16:38:35):    Can you imagine how Elrond must have felt, wearing his Elven Ring, and there was Frodo with the One Ring right in front of him unconscious?
Varda Valar (16:39:08):    I was considering doing a short story on that one, heh.
ArPharazon-V (16:39:11):    "I may have to stop using this one soon."
Arien V (16:39:13):    so all three were visible and had the rings so ergo they didnt but just because it wasn't needed or because they couldn't?#
Arien V (16:39:55):    . make invisible i mean?
Varda Valar (16:40:07):    The Rings didn't seem to be all that visible unless the other person also had a ring. Sam mentioned that it just seemed as if starlight were coming past her fingers, not like a ring there.
Varda Valar (16:40:11):    Frodo could see it
Arien V (16:40:32):    the rings werent visible . but the bearers where
Arien V (16:40:45):    .. were
ArPharazon-V (16:40:55):    Might just be an Elven thing.
ArPharazon-V (16:41:05):    They did have a glow, might have intentionally obscured it.
Varda Valar (16:41:49):    Interesting thought. Since they knew elves would wear those rings, they might have set that very thing up.
Arien V (16:43:07):    maybe a thing of this protection collaboration :) .. but its intriguing
Varda Valar (16:44:28):    New thoughts can happen here!
Varda Valar (16:45:09):    What did the elves try to preserve in their different homes? Were they different aims?
Varda Valar (16:46:14):    Elrond, Galadriel. Maybe a guess for Cirdan?
Arien V (16:47:24):    the ships and the port for the Elves who wanted to depart Middlearth?
ArPharazon-V (16:47:38):    Forests, buildings, knowledge...
Varda Valar (16:47:50):    The Havens may have needed protection, improvments, aye.
ArPharazon-V (16:48:04):    Did it really need a ring to conserve Rivendell? How could it have changed otherwise?
ArPharazon-V (16:49:06):    I do know Lorien started changing quite a bit after Galadriel's ring went away.
Arien V (16:49:08):    in Rivendell there wqs all the knowledge, lore and wisdom
Varda Valar (16:49:14):    So knowledge for Elrond, and a hidden refuge for friendlies. A river that could wash away enemies at the border. Some kind of defensive perimeter.
ArPharazon-V (16:49:22):    Ah, true.
ArPharazon-V (16:49:29):    That might have been ring-powered.
Varda Valar (16:50:01):    Might be why Elrond stayed in Rivendell, keeping up the defenses.
Arien V (16:51:36):    Galadriel didnt move much from Lothlorien before she left either
Arien V (16:51:52):    apartr from in dreams of course .. well that might game :)
Varda Valar (16:51:54):    Aye
EonweValar (16:52:11):    My conjecture based on the evidence: the Ring conferred on the bearers a corruption of Elvish fading: they lived longer than was natural for their kind as they faded into the "wraith world." The "invisibilty" is more forcing the bearer into the wraith world for a period. I suspect that for Elves, Calaquendi at the least (since they walked in both realms at once) but probably for any Elf due to their greater control of themselves, would not be drawn into the wraith world by the Rings.
Varda Valar (16:52:14):    Not until after Lothlorien was attacked three times.
EonweValar (16:52:48):    Pardon the late interjection.
Varda Valar (16:53:00):    So Galadriel and Elrond stayed physical longer than normal?
Varda Valar (16:53:21):    Glad of the interjection, whenever you were able to make it
ArPharazon-V (16:53:55):    I think Eonwe was more referring to the effect on non-elven bearers, as in that they got a variation on Elvish fading.
Varda Valar (16:54:01):    Gandalf would not be affected that way, as a Maia
EonweValar (16:54:02):    Not really, that aspect just never affected them. Just like certain qualities of the Rings given to Dwarves never affected the Dwarves.
EonweValar (16:54:23):    Aye Phar.
Varda Valar (16:54:24):    Interesting
Varda Valar (16:55:03):    I wondeer if it did slow the natural fading of the elven bodies too, however. Elrond and Galadriel were ancient.
EonweValar (16:55:29):    Cirdan was moreso, and he was still fine without one.
ArPharazon-V (16:55:42):    Cirdan had one for a while though.
Varda Valar (16:56:14):    Cirdan didn't keep it. And I wonder if it helped him get that facial hair. :)
Arien V (16:56:23):    *i have seen three ages ! . Elrond said .. and i believe that Cirdan is mentionened somewhere before the Lord of the Rings ^^
Varda Valar (16:56:43):    Cirdan was another old one, agreed.
ArPharazon-V (16:57:46):    Gilgalad was pretty old too, though he died a bit sooner, it doesn't seem like he was starting to get signs of fading or aging.
Varda Valar (16:58:29):    That's an interesting thing. At what point would the fea make the body less, as it was supposed to be doing?
Varda Valar (16:58:56):    We know Glofrndel's fea was very visible to those that could see the other side.
EonweValar (16:59:44):    That ties in with my following question:
Varda Valar (17:00:02):    So we don't acdtually know of any elves that faded in that time. Apparently much later on, in the time of Men.
ArPharazon-V (17:00:09):    That was a fresh incarnation though, so he's got a bit of a margin. His fea was greater, his... *looks up term* hroa was fresh, leading to a strong body but stronger spiritual presence.
Varda Valar (17:00:36):    Good point. Fresh hroa.
EonweValar (17:01:00):    Since the Elven Rings were used for/geared towards preservation, do you think they sped up, slowed down, or had no effect on the general fading of the Elves? Was the Third Age of the Sun always it for them, or could they have been a presence longer as a civilization? Why?
Varda Valar (17:01:58):    Galadriel seemed to believe they could have remained a much longer time if they had not had to lose the Rings along with the One Ring's destruction.
ArPharazon-V (17:02:27):    Sounds about right. At least their homes would've been around for a bit longer, which might have helped them resist the fading.
EonweValar (17:02:39):    Aye, but that would be because the Rings would let them continue to preserve what they had.
ArPharazon-V (17:02:42):    But it could also easily have had an effect on the Elves themselves.
Varda Valar (17:02:45):    That was one of the sorrows of the Eldar. Any way the War went was hard on them.
ArPharazon-V (17:02:54):    Preserving their hroar.
EonweValar (17:04:37):    Had there not been the Rings of Power at all, could the Elves have preserved their civilization longer?
Varda Valar (17:05:14):    Oddly, yes.
ArPharazon-V (17:05:35):    Why? Would Sauron's military power have been diminished?
Varda Valar (17:05:42):    Thrandui'ls elves remained, at least as long as they could keep from seeing the sea.
Varda Valar (17:06:14):    The others became addicted to their Rings and stagnated.
Varda Valar (17:06:33):    They might have been forced to work together, or more with other races.
Varda Valar (17:06:56):    *more
Arien V (17:08:36):    this is what the wikepedia sais about "fear and hroar"
EonweValar (17:08:37):    So Thranduil's realm did not stagnate?
Arien V (17:08:46):    i found this interesting
Arien V (17:08:52):    When an Elf dies, the fëa leaves the hröa, which then "dies". The fëais summoned to the Halls of Mandos, where it is judged; however as with death their free-will is not taken away, they could refuse the summons.[3] If allowed by Mandos, the fëa
Arien V (17:09:10):    may be re-embodied into a new body that is identical to the previous hröa
Varda Valar (17:09:36):    Refusers became the Houseless Ones.
Arien V (17:10:07):    this is the full article
Arien V (17:10:13):
Varda Valar (17:10:59):    Thranduil's realm worked with dwarves of Erebor and men of Laketown and Dale. They had areas outside their main home such as for the Raft-elves and later in Ithilien. Their main problem was constant attacks from the Necromancer and the Nazgul.
Arien V (17:13:27):    aye
Arien V (17:13:41):    who were Sauron pluse the ine human Ringbearers
Arien V (17:13:58):    pardon me .. plus
Varda Valar (17:14:08):    Right
ArPharazon-V (17:15:43):    I suppose the question whether they'd have been able to preserve their civilizations longer depends on your definition of preservation.
ArPharazon-V (17:15:57):    Survived, yes. Survived without the necessary change... no.
Varda Valar (17:16:33):    What would the necessary change have been?
ArPharazon-V (17:17:31):    A change in their culture, their way of looking at the world, I guess? Mirkwood views on friendship with dwarves had to change, for example, for them to survive :) Such things might not have been necessary with a Ring of preservation on your finger.
Varda Valar (17:17:57):    Aye
Varda Valar (17:18:10):    Necessity is the mother of invention. :)
ArPharazon-V (17:18:11):    The stagnancy of the Ringbearers' realms indicates that they did not like change at all, even when it's not necessarily a bad thing.
EonweValar (17:18:42):    The biggest problem/necessity for a civilization is birthrate. If not enough new Elves are being born, then you end up with alot of old ones, who are getting world-weary because the pace and lifespan of everythign around them is short compared to their own, and they end up sailing away.
Varda Valar (17:18:43):    Change means taking a risk. They may have become more and more risk-advesrse, or unable to adapt to change.
Varda Valar (17:19:30):    Sadness at the deaths all around them? Like older people that stop keeping pets after losing several well-loved ones to age.
EonweValar (17:20:04):    That's part of it, aye Varda.
ArPharazon-V (17:20:20):    The way I see it, all 3 types of rings exploited a weakness in their bearers' races, giving them promises and rewards that were not necessarily for the better. For men, it was their mortality; for dwarves, their greed; for Elves, their tendency to conserve and stagnate.
Varda Valar (17:20:36):    That's it in a nutshell.
Varda Valar (17:20:44):    Weakness exploitation.
Varda Valar (17:20:53):    Making it addictive.
ArPharazon-V (17:21:00):    Yep.
EonweValar (17:21:58):    Well, they're all the same "ring" per se, Except for a version of a story that suggests that it was Celebrimbor himself who gave a ring to Durin, there's no reason to believe the rings themselves were made for specific races.
Varda Valar (17:22:23):    Well, that poem suggests it.
ArPharazon-V (17:22:28):    The Elven rings were separate, at least.
ArPharazon-V (17:22:35):    For not being made in part by Sauron.
Varda Valar (17:23:17):    That did make them different, aye.
ArPharazon-V (17:23:45):    But yes, they basically operated in the same way, even while finding different weaknesses to exploit per race.
Varda Valar (17:24:04):    Aye
EonweValar (17:24:08):    Aye, but the other Rings of Power weren't. The SIl says Sauron "recovered some, and some he gave to men and dwarves," paraphrasing.
ArPharazon-V (17:24:18):    There were differences in effectiveness though, which I suppose were partly due to their target races and partially their origin in case of the elves.
EonweValar (17:25:21):    Aye, different aspects of the ring's power affected the races differently.
EonweValar (17:25:53):    Interestly, I don't think we ever hear about what these rings Sans the Three are capable of in the hands of an Elf.
ArPharazon-V (17:26:54):    If the method of operation was the same between all 19 (and possibly lesser), I imagine it would do pretty much the same thing, except perhaps make them more vulnerable to the One.
EonweValar (17:27:46):    Based on the ability and inclination of the wearer, aye.
ArPharazon-V (17:28:16):    the same thing as the Three, I mean, if that was unclear.
EonweValar (17:28:30):    Well, the Three were made specifically with preservation in mind.
EonweValar (17:29:16):    The Three were probably the culmination of everything Celebrimbor learned from Sauron and from making the other Rings, his silmarilli, as it were.
Arien V (17:29:47):    .. i wonder yes of course .. Thrain had one dwarven ring right? thats why he got so obsessive about his hoard
EonweValar (17:30:25):    He had one, but I don't think the movies gave him his due, hehe.
EonweValar (17:30:40):    Sorry all, but I have to go now.
EonweValar (17:30:55):    Stayed too long as it is :}
Arien V (17:30:57):    strange that the Arkenjewel affected his son .. Thorin .. in a similar way .. at least he became obsessive with the stone
EonweValar (17:31:04):    Take care all and have fun :}
Arien V (17:31:11):    take care :)
ArPharazon-V (17:31:17):    *gasp* Arkenstone was a crusted over ring? Nahh...
ArPharazon-V (17:31:20):    Namarie!
Arien V (17:31:51):    hehe no it certainly wasnt bvut it affected Thorin almost like one
ArPharazon-V (17:33:10):    Thorin may not have had a Ring, but I wonder if it started having some generational effect. The influence it had on his direct ancestors made him too a bit greedy and attached to the jewelled pride of his house.
Varda Valar (17:33:12):    pardon, had to answer the door, bunch of friends came by. ::)
Varda Valar (17:33:16):    Namarie Eonwe
ArPharazon-V (17:34:35):    We don't what effect Rings have on the bearers' descendants, especially over multiple generations. The 9 never passed on their Rings, the Elves didn't either. Gollum and Bilbo never had any children.
ArPharazon-V (17:34:39):    *don't know
Varda Valar (17:35:02):    Biblo passed his to frodo
Varda Valar (17:35:11):    *Bilbo
ArPharazon-V (17:35:41):    Couple of millennia of Dwarven generations later, there might have been some residual genetic effect that made Thorim "corrupted" even though the ring stayed with his father.
ArPharazon-V (17:36:00):    Yes, but Frodo wasn't a genetic descendant of Bilbo, if that makes sense :)
Arien V (17:36:25):    it does .. he was his nephew .. twice removed
Varda Valar (17:36:30):    Nephew by blood, not a son, true. Raised in the same house with the Ring
ArPharazon-V (17:36:35):    Aye.
ArPharazon-V (17:37:43):    Elrond did have a child to pass any Ring-corruption to, but both Elves and their rings were more resistant to it, perhaps.
ArPharazon-V (17:37:49):    And it was only one generation.
Varda Valar (17:38:22):    True. He did have three children of his own, and raised many young Chieftains.
ArPharazon-V (17:38:25):    Multiple children, in fact, I forgot about the twins ;)
ArPharazon-V (17:38:27):    Yep.
Varda Valar (17:39:16):    One has to wonder how the children are affected just by being in close proximity to a Ring of power for their whole lives, posssessed by someone so very close to them in all ways.
Varda Valar (17:40:00):    Also, what about the people around them? Since thesee are their leaders, and present in many aspects of their lives.
ArPharazon-V (17:40:17):    Yes. Now multiply that with so many dozen generations of dwarves, possessing a Ring of power in an unbroken sequence until Thrain. Is it difficult to believe Thorin was still affected by its influence?
Varda Valar (17:40:42):    It does seem possible.
Varda Valar (17:41:38):    The dwarven Rings let them make hoards of gold, but it required gold to start with, a problem for Thrain and Thorin.
Varda Valar (17:42:15):    That had to be a frustration to grow up with: a source of immense wealth if they could get the pump primed, get it started working.
ArPharazon-V (17:42:48):    No wonder they were eager to reclaim their homes of Moria and Erebor :)
Varda Valar (17:43:50):    Home plus wealth after being poor and gvien grief for a long time? O yes.
ArPharazon-V (17:44:13):    They did have gold to invest, but it was kinda inaccessible until they rooted out some home infestations, notably a dragon, a balrog and some orcs.
Arien V (17:44:52):    aye
Varda Valar (17:44:54):    They needed some serious Raid.
Varda Valar (17:45:03):    /duck
Arien V (17:45:05):    not to mention the minor problem of a Balrog ..
ArPharazon-V (17:46:29):    I wonder if Smaug could've made use of a Dwarven ring.
ArPharazon-V (17:46:50):    Invest a bit of gold to make an even bigger hoard? Yes please. If he could stand to lose that bit of gold.
Varda Valar (17:47:19):    If the idea that the race didn't matter for the Sauron-touched Rings, maybe? Then why did the dragons melt them in dragon-fire?
ArPharazon-V (17:47:53):    Oversight, perhaps? Melted their owners before noticing the shiny metal bands on their fingers until it was a puddle?
Varda Valar (17:50:04):    It's possible that since they were rings, they were intended for humanoid fingers. Might havve angered the dragons that they could not use them?
ArPharazon-V (17:50:34):    Tip of the claw? Easy to lose perhaps.
Arien V (17:50:48):    *if we cannot have them noone shall but we keep the shiny *raaar*
Varda Valar (17:51:09):    Sounds right
ArPharazon-V (17:51:29):    Now I'm imagining an invisible dragon...
Varda Valar (17:52:55):    Only if one got the One Ring and could wear it. Wouldn't that be something!
ArPharazon-V (17:53:30):    Where's all this fire coming from? And why did that cart crash into an invisible wall?
Varda Valar (17:55:22):    Spontaneous combustion. Of a town.
Arien V (17:56:50):    oh dearf .. dont give Sauron ideas :)
Arien V (17:57:35):    *stealth nazgul with dragon as mount*
Varda Valar (17:57:42):    He just left, no problem. ;) Makes one wonder about our friends at the door. What will happen to them now that he is in their company!
Varda Valar (17:58:11):    That dragon would be telling the Nazgul what to do. Fly in formation!
Varda Valar (17:59:07):    I'm going to call it here, gang. We can keep going in Affter-meeting if we like. :)
Varda Valar (17:59:33):    *hammer jumps as if spring-loaded into the hand*
Varda Valar (17:59:39):    *spannnnng!*
Varda Valar (17:59:51):    *the table vibrates for a few moments*
Varda Valar (18:00:03):    *replaces the hammer in the shelf*

Varda Valar (18:00:07):    After-meeting!
Varda Valar (18:00:45):    Smaug with a ring. He should keep one of the dwarves to ooperate it, make lots of gold.
ArPharazon-V (18:01:35):    I wonder if Sauron would've been okay with that. He was collecting them.
Varda Valar (18:03:23):    Only if the dragon and dwarf did what was needed, as in blocking the free people but letting Sauron's do what he wanted.
Arien V (18:03:34):    dwarves or rings or dwarves with rings?
Varda Valar (18:03:42):    Once they figured that out, may-be.
ArPharazon-V (18:03:52):    He was collecting rings, yes, not dwarves :)
Arien V (18:04:09):    :)
Arien V (18:04:17):    just being silly
Arien V (18:05:26):    but .. yes gang *yawns*
Arien V (18:05:45):    got up this morning at six 6
Arien V (18:05:50):    ^^
Arien V (18:06:24):    so thank you for the meeting and thanks for the interesting discussion :)
Varda Valar (18:06:26):    Sleep well!
ArPharazon-V (18:06:30):    Alright, Namarie :)
Varda Valar (18:06:33):    Thanks for coming!
Arien V (18:06:47):    Namarie :)

ArPharazon-V (18:41:48):    Well, as for personal gaming report, like I said, I've done almost nothing but a few flashgames which I always do, usually daily...
Varda Valar (18:42:22):    Good for the flashgame report at least. Sorry about your video card.
ArPharazon-V (18:42:58):    Nah, I meant it's just games I always do, nothing new. Some MMO-like stuff which I've linked in the past.
ArPharazon-V (18:43:46):    But if you do want something, I did notice that this week's badges of the day on Kongregate had a few of a series I always liked. And I did re-play the first installment today for that reason. So even if I've linked it before...
ArPharazon-V (18:44:07):    have fun with :)
ArPharazon-V (18:44:21):    And if you like it, go for the 3 sequels!
ArPharazon-V (18:58:54):    So yeah, that'll be it for my report ;)
Varda Valar (19:02:00):    Thank you, Phar. :)