Valar Guild

July 2, 2017 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (UTC/GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (6)
    AIM: Arien, Ar-Pharazon, Elladan, Eonwe, Varda (presiding)
    Discord: Gil-galad, Varda

Meeting begins
    Tolkien Site: updated Timeline, new article
    Games Site: tweaks ongoing
    General gaming report by Eonwe
    Topic: What was the main trait bringing on evil in Tolkien's world?
    Flashgaming Reviews by Ar-Pharazon
    Personal gaming by Ar-Pharazon


Chat History for Valar Guild Meetingplace
Sunday, July 2, 2017
Ar-Pharazon's timestamps.

Varda Valar (23:07:56):    Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
Varda Valar (23:07:59):    Membership:
Elladan (23:08:09):    Aiya :)
Varda Valar (23:08:17):    Please say Aiya if you would like to be put on the rolls for today
Varda Valar (23:08:21):    Aiya
Varda Valar (23:08:25):    Aiya Elladan :)
Eonwe Valar (23:08:32):    Heya and Aiya :}
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:08:58):    Aiya
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:09:03):    and Aiya Elladan!
Elladan (23:09:30):    :)
Varda Valar (23:09:41):    Any membership news? Bogey going to join? :)
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:09:24):    (yay, just got my illusion from Ahune, after almost 2 weeks trying)
Varda Valar (23:11:06):    Congratulations, Phar :)
Eonwe Valar (23:11:18):    That's Deathfrost, right?
Varda Valar (23:11:22):    Got a message on Discord, think we just don't have the hang of getting into the same spot yet.
Elladan (23:11:23):    there's an illusion from it??
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:11:27):    Yep, Deathfrost :)
Eonwe Valar (23:12:10):    Got that at some point since the event started too :}
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:12:18):    was fighting him twice a day with my druid and DH, the only ones at lvl 100 or higher. Did not really think I'd get it.
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:12:20):    But there it is :D
Elladan (23:12:55):    gah! I stopped running it cause I thought all I could get is the blossoms now!
Elladan (23:12:59):    is it account wide?
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:12:40):    It is.
Elladan (23:13:04):    transmog right?
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:12:59):    Yep. Weapon enchant transmog. You need level 100 or higher to get the daily satchel that can contain it.
Elladan (23:13:22):    cool! That gives me about 20 runs a day then haha
Elladan (23:13:45):    oh okay, maybe 10 runs then if its 100 or over
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:13:33):    Good luck, including today you've got 3 days left ;)
Elladan (23:13:56):    sorry, Varda. Carry on lol. I'm good for hijacking
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:13:52):    Or 2? Not sure if US events are a day sooner.
Eonwe Valar (23:15:12):    It'll end the 5th but before the dungeon reset.
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:15:24):    That's 3 then.
Eonwe Valar (23:16:20):    Today, 3rd, and 4th, aye.
Varda Valar (23:19:24):    Arien coming?
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:19:23):    Oh! Letme check.
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:19:36):    Urwendi last online 3 hours ago
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:19:38):    sorry :(
Varda Valar (23:20:10):    Thanks for checking, much appreciated.
Varda Valar (23:20:21):    Any other membership news?
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:20:20):    Saw Fladrif again in Hearthstone! But perhaps that's a gaming story :)
Varda Valar (23:21:06):    Good to hear. :) *drags Flad back into the chat*

Varda Valar (23:21:32):    Web:
Varda Valar (23:21:35):    Tolkien Site:
Varda Valar (23:22:09):    The big Timeline that can pull all our articles together now has all the main events. Tweaking it from now on for other events and links to articles. :)
Varda Valar (23:22:13):    Speaking of,
Varda Valar (23:22:37):    lots of places don't have even a small, explanatory article. So, here's a new one:
Varda Valar (23:22:43):    "Almaren"
Varda Valar (23:22:46):
Varda Valar (23:23:18):    The "Places" articles are sadly neglected. Also, we could use more on the variouis battles.
Varda Valar (23:23:40):    Then of course Characters are always welcome, and Objects, etc.

Varda Valar (23:24:07):    Eonwe, do you have any news on the Games Site?
Eonwe Valar (23:24:44):    Nothing new, no, just always looking out for tweaks to make.
Varda Valar (23:24:59):    Sounds good!

Varda Valar (23:25:02):    Gaming:
Varda Valar (23:25:25):    For instance, you add to your Games Site News a lot. Would you be able to give the report today?
Eonwe Valar (23:25:35):    Certainly.
Varda Valar (23:25:44):    Fire away!

Eonwe Valar (23:26:00):    World of Warcraft:
Eonwe Valar (23:26:17):    See what's going on This Month in WoW.
Eonwe Valar (23:26:48):    See the latest hotfixes. . (Previous hotfixes during the week as well, but I'll skip listing all of them.)
Eonwe Valar (23:27:03):    The Mythic difficulty and Raid Finder Wing 1 of the Tomb of Sargeras raid are now open.
Eonwe Valar (23:27:14):    This week's bonus event is Legion dungeons.

Eonwe Valar (23:27:33):    Lord of the Rings Online:
Eonwe Valar (23:27:57):    Servers were brought down Wednesday for an update.

Eonwe Valar (23:28:12):    Starcraft:
Eonwe Valar (23:28:26):    The release date for Starcraft: Remastered has been announced: August 14th!
Eonwe Valar (23:29:15):    It's going to be for 14.99 USD, and you can pre-purchase on Blizzard's Site if you're interested in getting some cosmetic goodies for the game and for SC2.
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:29:09):    same price as necromancer *grin* interesting contrast in content though?
Eonwe Valar (23:30:19):    One is a remake of a 20-year old game, one is new content for a more recent game. Both I find to be better prices than I expected, hehe.
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:30:08):    right, afk-ish for a bit, darkmoon faire concert event time ;)

Eonwe Valar (23:30:47):    Diablo 3:
Eonwe Valar (23:30:57):    Patch 2.6.0 is now out.
Eonwe Valar (23:31:21):    As Phar alluded to: The Rise of the Necromancer purchaseable content is now available.
Eonwe Valar (23:32:09):    It comes with more than just the Necromancer: 2 stash tabs and some cosmetic goodies.
Eonwe Valar (23:32:44):    And a character slot, if you're already running low and are concerned about having one for the character you're buying.

Eonwe Valar (23:33:41):    Starcraft 2:
Eonwe Valar (23:33:56):    Map changes are coming.

Eonwe Valar (23:34:13):    Heroes of the Storm:
Eonwe Valar (23:34:41):    A new event is going: Sun's Out, Guns Out. With it there's also a sweepstakes. Take a look here for the rules on that, if you're interested.
Eonwe Valar (23:34:52):    Check out the hotfixes.

Eonwe Valar (23:35:07):    Overwatch:
Eonwe Valar (23:35:23):    A new patch is out.

Eonwe Valar (23:35:43):    Thus completes my report of gaming news I'm privy to.
Varda Valar (23:36:01):    Thank you, Eonwe. :)
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:36:05):    back
Varda Valar (23:36:37):    Guess I should have emailed the LotRO news to you. Here we go:

Varda Valar (23:36:43):    LotRO:
Varda Valar (23:36:57):    Box run this past week and through today is 3-man Sword-Hall of Dol Guldur.
Varda Valar (23:37:16):    LOTRO Game Servers were brought down on Wednesday, June 28th from 8:00 AM - 12:00 PM Eastern (-4 GMT) for an update to the game.
Varda Valar (23:37:41):    From the Launcher's news: "The Summer Festival is back, now through July 16th! Click here for our guide."
Varda Valar (23:38:19):    For more LotRO news, check out Developer Cordovan's New issue of the Beacon #17

Varda Valar (23:39:03):    Switching to Valarites spotted this past week:
Varda Valar (23:39:06):    LotRO:
Varda Valar (23:39:18):   
Varda Valar (23:39:27):    StarCraft 2:
Varda Valar (23:39:51):    Anyone else have a report? Phar did one earlier
Eonwe Valar (23:40:04):    WoW Lothar:
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:39:55):    Well, I can tell you about Fladrif in Hearthstone yes... ;)
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:40:25):    We both had a "challenge a friend" daily quest, he on friday and I on saturday, so we fought each other each day and ended up with 160 gold reward each :)
Varda Valar (23:41:07):    Nice teamwork, of a sort. :)
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:40:49):    Yep!
Varda Valar (23:41:28):    Any other news, suggestions, etc?

Varda Valar (23:43:25):    Tolkien:
Varda Valar (23:43:44):    What was the main trait bringing on evil in Tolkien's world? [Original in the chat appeared blacked out. Removing formatting makes it visible again.]
Varda Valar (23:43:50):    ack, let me try that again
Varda Valar (23:44:21):    What was the main trait bringing on evil in Tolkien's world?
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:44:19):    Envy and ambition, to rise up and take power for your own.
Elladan (23:44:47):    Greed
Varda Valar (23:46:37):    Examples?
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:46:30):    Morgoth, wanting the power to create that Eru had.
Elladan (23:47:02):    Everyone wanted the ring :P
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:46:56):    Some silly human king, trying to break a ban and gain the immortality of others.
Eonwe Valar (23:47:26):    "My will, not Thy Will," both in the "biblical" sense of being toward the Diety, and in the sense of one's fellow sentient beings: the desire to have what one wants without concern for others' rights.
Varda Valar (23:47:44):    So, extreme ego, as in hubris?
Eonwe Valar (23:48:14):    *Deity, not Diety,.. villians may be trying to lose weight, but that's not at the heart of this conversation, hehe.
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:48:13):    Could also be fear and envy... envy of what others have, and once you have it, fear of losing it.
Varda Valar (23:49:12):    All of these answers are good ones.
Varda Valar (23:49:29):    Fear is a root trait too, aye.
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:49:17):    But mostly it comes down to control. Wanting to control your own at the cost of the freedom of others, and being able to do and make what you want.
Varda Valar (23:49:41):    Greed, envy coming from them.
Varda Valar (23:50:17):    Fear of being harmed by others having any control at all, rather than your own control period?
Varda Valar (23:50:21):    (for a villain)
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:50:23):    If others have the power to harm you, you are not in full control of everything relevant to you :)
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:50:38):    So yes, it's tied together.
Varda Valar (23:52:20):    All of them work together to make a nasty soup.
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:52:04):    Yep.
Varda Valar (23:52:26):    From Gil-galad in Discord:
Varda Valar (23:52:35):    Well, the trait that usually brings evil in the world: pride, and greed. It was Melkor's desire for the Flame Imperishable that he wove in the song of the Ainur, and it was shame and anger that Eru's rebuke brought that moved his evil
Varda Valar (23:52:40):    Is that readable?
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:52:27):    With effort.
Varda Valar (23:53:06):    And again when the Valar chose Manwë as their leader, it was Melkor's pride and greed that moved him.
Elladan (23:53:08):    highlight it and iit is
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:53:37):    I like a quote I first saw in Discworld... 'Evil begins when you begin to treat people as things'
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:53:57):    Morgoth certainly saw people as things to control, or exterminate if he could not.
Ar-Pharazon-V (23:56:58):    too philosophical? ;)
Eonwe Valar (23:57:30):    No :}
Eonwe Valar (23:58:05):    I think it does play into the philosophy of the end justifying the means though :}
Varda Valar (23:58:18):    Never too philosophical for this group. :)
Monday, July 3, 2017
Eonwe Valar (00:00:38):    Once you decide the there is a line at which it is ok to do evil for a "greater good," you're on a dangerous road. Sauron, for example. As I recall he tried to lie to himself at the end of the First Age, that what he was doing was for the betterment of Middle-Earth. That didn't hold long though and it just became about him getting what he wanted.
Varda Valar (00:01:19):    Gil-Galad-Today at 5:00 PM
But I don't agree with the quote. Evil doesn't begin when you treat people as things, that is quite an advanced stage. Evil begin when you start to consider yourself better than the other, consider yourself superior.
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:01:57):    Interesting thought. I suppose a point could be made that by the time you consider yourself better than other people, you already think of them as "things" to be superior to...
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:02:27):    and if not, you could still say that while there the motivation of evil begins, the deeds of evil begin when you start treating people as things?
Eonwe Valar (00:02:49):    Gil-Galad's I can agree with: that you know better than someone else what is good for them, and that you should make their choices for them. That would agree with my statement earlier.
Varda Valar (00:04:00):    Gil-Galad-Today at 5:03 PM
^What Eonwe said
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:04:15):    We can all have our opinions ;)
Varda Valar (00:04:52):    That's what makes conversations interesting. :)
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:04:39):    True.
Eonwe Valar (00:05:13):    At the beginning you would probably still tell yourself you're doing what is best for everyone, that only you know what is truly best.
Eonwe Valar (00:05:31):    And if you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette, what of it?
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:05:31):    Ah, treating people like eggs, there it is ;)
Eonwe Valar (00:05:53):    Sad, tragic even, but we have to get stuff done!
Eonwe Valar (00:07:09):    And when you're fighting that kind of evil, of course you yourself must abandon the principles that stand in the way of victory. And if you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette, what of it?
Eonwe Valar (00:07:21):    It's sad, tragic even, but we have to defeat this Dark Lord!
Eonwe Valar (00:08:08):    :}
Varda Valar (00:08:21):    Which is why JRRT said if he had been making the story actually like the real World Wars, the Free People would indeed have used the Ring, with terrible consequences all around.
Eonwe Valar (00:08:32):    Aye.
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:08:59):    Now I want there to be a LotR version of the World Wars that ends with a brave group of heroes dropping a nuke in a volcano.
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:09:29):    Details to be worked out later? ;)
Eonwe Valar (00:09:57):    Except the volcano shooting radioactive lava and smoke everywhere would not be good.
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:10:12):    Hm. Did I just develop a superweapon?
Eonwe Valar (00:10:54):    No, Sauron did, he just let you think it was your idea :}
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:10:38):    hehe
Eonwe Valar (00:11:25):    Like that big temple to Melkor in the middle of Numenor... *totally* your idea too I'm sure :}
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:11:36):    Oh yes. My new advisor had a few things to say about the details, but the main thing was totally my idea.
Eonwe Valar (00:15:17):    More to the original topic though: there is a reason Sauron is considered "less evil" than Melkor "for a time," when he was serving Melkor, and that was because he could acknowledge a will of equal or greater importance to his own. He wasn't *just* about what he wanted, but what also about what Morgoth wanted. Not that either one wanted very good things, hehe.
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:16:28):    And even after Morgoth was cast out, he still placed Morgoth above himself, in a way, at least as a method to turn Numenor to a new god.
Varda Valar (00:16:58):    Exactly right. Shades of evil. JRRT did not actually paint in black and white as some claim.
Varda Valar (00:18:37):    Aye, Sauron followed Morgoth himself and wanted others to as well.
Eonwe Valar (00:18:47):    Well, he had Absolute Good in Eru, but he did not believe in Absolute Evil, which I may have said before, but makes amazing sense: if you have a being that is the "Everything" his equal-opposite would literally be "Nothing." Nonexistent.
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:18:33):    Sauron did not treat everyone else as things, just everyone else except Morgoth ;)
Eonwe Valar (00:19:04):    hehe
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:20:30):    Getting into religious territory a bit, but I always thought that a being that has "everything" cannot be absolute good because it must also contain evil. But for the sake of this discussion I'm okay with absolute good being the source of evil that comes later :)
Eonwe Valar (00:21:36):    Well, actually no :} I can still discuss that and not move out of Tolkien's works.
Eonwe Valar (00:22:26):    Tolkien gets alot into the philosophical considerations of Ea in HoME's later books.
Eonwe Valar (00:22:32):    Nature of reality and all.
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:23:20):    That was also the time where he started to revise the nature of his universe to contain balls of rock and gas rather than ships made from fruit, so if we take that into the canon, things start to get a bit iffy ;)
Varda Valar (00:23:42):    Gil-Galad-Today at 5:21 PM
This is a interesting discussion. When do you guys think that Sauron changed? When did it become about himself and what prompted it?
Eonwe Valar (00:25:06):    Eru's statement of "everything has its innermost source in me" does not necessarily mean that there is Evil in Eru, it *does* mean that Evil is the rejection or corruption of something that finds its source in Eru.
Eonwe Valar (00:25:37):    Eru created the Ainur as sentient beings, he taught them, and then he laid out the blueprint for all of reality.
Eonwe Valar (00:26:16):    Melkor's "fall" to evil is not that he was contributing to the Ainulindallë: that is as was intended.
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:26:57):    He did create Morgoth with the capacity - nay, the tendency - to rebel. Did Eru not intend Melkor's fall?
Eonwe Valar (00:27:38):    Melkor's fall was when he determined that the Music should be all his ideas, without regard to anyone else contributing.
Varda Valar (00:27:57):    Eru gave them all free will
Eonwe Valar (00:27:59):    Eru gave each Ainu Free Will.
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:27:59):    Alright, fair enough.
Eonwe Valar (00:28:28):    Manwë had the same options Melkor did in that respect.
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:28:19):    But obviously a different personality.
Varda Valar (00:29:23):    Aye, a different will.
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:29:16):    One given by Eru, logically.
Varda Valar (00:29:40):    Gil-Galad-Today at 5:28 PM
Rebel doesn't necessarily equal covet and destroy. Not every rebel is evil
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:29:28):    yikes
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:29:49):    Ah, but if the rebellion is against something that is absolute good? :)
Varda Valar (00:31:00):    Could be a serious error in judgement.
Varda Valar (00:31:19):    Gil-Galad-Today at 5:31 PM
Well, then we get back to the discussion of if anything is really absolute, be it good or bad
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:31:09):    So it is possible that Morgoth did not perceive Eru as good?
Eonwe Valar (00:31:41):    Eru granted Free Will, and then gave them the chance to exercise that will "Here's the blueprint, build it up from there". Melkor was the first to say "Eh, I've got a better set of blueprints."
Varda Valar (00:32:39):    If one believes that what he thinks is the only right way, then even an Absolute Good's comment that disagrees must be inherently wrong.
Eonwe Valar (00:34:14):    Well, in the discussion of Absolute Good (since we already acknowledged Absolute Evil was ruled out by Tolkien) the part that alot of people tend to simoultaneously toss out or use as argument against it as their needs fits is: Not everyone is Eru :}
Varda Valar (00:34:41):   
Gil-Galad-Today at 5:33 PM
I know that we are comfortable with the dichotomy of evil/good, but most of time things fall completely out of it. I don't see Eru as good, or bad. Eru was/is/will be.
He wasn't bad or good, he just was.
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:35:03):    And in being so, created beings that could choose to think and do both good and evil thoughts and deeds.
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:35:19):    There needs not be absolute good.
Varda Valar (00:36:11):    But in Tolkien's world, is there absolute good?
Eonwe Valar (00:36:29):    Everyone *except* Eru is by definition *not* perfect, finite, and can only understand things to the limit of their ability. But even if the Ainur had trouble understanding it, Eru did lay it out for them by letting them know they were all to contribute what they will to the Music. That's clearly an "everyone gets to participate," not "Let's drown out everyone we don't like." :}
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:37:13):    If we can consider Eru not to be absolute good, but rather, simply Eru, I'd argue there is no absolute good.
Varda Valar (00:38:04):    Gil-Galad-Today at 5:37 PM
I don't thin that absolute good or bad exist at all, be it in the real world or Tolkien's world
Eonwe Valar (00:38:30):    So then by what right do we determine that Morgoth doesn't have the right to dominate all of Middle-Earth?
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:38:52):    Because just because absolute good may not exist, does not mean we cannot strive to approach it is as closely as possible, and be against those who don't ;)
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:39:11):    who don't, by our definitions of good, anyway
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:39:25):    Which we already established by defining evil earlier in the discussion ;)
Eonwe Valar (00:39:54):    But we have tohave a definition of "Good" and therefore must have a "perfect" or "absolute" version to strive for.
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:40:12):    Sure, we can. But that does not mean it's objectively the correct one (if that's even a thing) or that it is actually possible to reach it and conceive of it in one being.
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:40:24):    What matters, perhaps, is the attempt :)
Elladan (00:41:05):    Gotta get going. Great to see you all! <3 See you next week!
Elladan (00:41:08):    Namarie!
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:40:51):    Namarie!
Eonwe Valar (00:41:13):    Well, The point of an Eru-like being is that we, as finite creatures, couldn't possibly fully comprehend him anyway :}
Varda Valar (00:41:26):    Namarie Elladan!
Eonwe Valar (00:41:28):    Take care Elladan :}
Varda Valar (00:41:42):    Gil-Galad-Today at 5:40 PM
Morgoth is not evil because he went against the designations of Eru, Morgoth is evil because he acted out of pride, out of greed, out of a belief that he was better and that he deserved all that the others had. Morgoth acted through destruction, and that's why he was evil.
Eonwe Valar (00:42:20):    So if Morgoth had convinced all of the Ainur to just shut up, that would've been better?
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:42:00):    Agreed. Morgoth is not evil because he stood against Eru, but because his motivations and deeds were what the audience considers evil.
(00:42:31) Elladan left this group chat.
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:42:47):    Did Elladan just manually leave the room? Will need to be invited next time then.
Eonwe Valar (00:43:18):    "Hey, let's show Eru we're not going to participate in any more of his singing!"
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:43:21):    If they did, knowing what we do of Eru, it all would've fit into his grand scheme anyway :)
Varda Valar (00:43:43):    (I do manually invite him, Phar)
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:43:26):    Ah.
Varda Valar (00:44:21):    Morgoth was just too full of himself. Had no room to let in others.
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:44:36):    And yet he reached out to Sauron, or was that Sauron's initiative?
Varda Valar (00:45:02):    Morgoth's music forced those nearby to join his or be quiet.
Eonwe Valar (00:45:26):    Sauron was likely one of those who had waivered/been drawn to him during the Music.
Varda Valar (00:45:49):    Morgoth reached out to many. It's called seduction to do what he wanted, often with bribery or flattering egos.
Varda Valar (00:46:36):    or just going the way of least conflict.
Eonwe Valar (00:46:44):    I would love to continue this conversation, but I'm already way over my time, so I will make this last point and let it be built upon or destroyed as you all see fit :}
Varda Valar (00:47:01):    It is over time.
Varda Valar (00:47:36):    (by a lot)
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:47:24):    heh
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:47:32):    That means we had a lot to say.
Eonwe Valar (00:48:59):    I started with the argument of "My will, not Thy Will": that Free Will and the respect for it is at the Heart of Good. Notice that Eru did not stop Melkor from singing, he did raise up others to contend with him, to protect their own rights, and did not step in until the very End, after introducing many other important things to the Music of his own.
Eonwe Valar (00:49:44):    The Valar learned this lesson and were careful in their dealing with the Free Peoples.
Varda Valar (00:49:57):    Agreed. Eru allowed Melkor's free will and incorporated it into the music in a way that was good for others.
Eonwe Valar (00:50:18):    The Noldor learned this lesson after some serious violations.
Eonwe Valar (00:51:36):    Morgoth did not care about the Free Will of others. Sauron did not either, except for in Morgoth in the beginning.
Varda Valar (00:52:42):    This suggests that Free Will is at the heart of doing good.
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:52:49):    The morality of free will is a paradoxical thing because even at the heart of doing good it is the only way to bring evil into existence :)
Eonwe Valar (00:53:35):    That is why Good is a constant choice :}
Eonwe Valar (00:55:05):    But it is ultimately a choice :} and Morgoth/Sauron can be very convincing :}
Eonwe Valar (00:55:15):    Through force or guile :}
Eonwe Valar (00:55:38):    Anyway, I will leave it there. Take care all, good night, sleep well, and have fun :}
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:55:20):    Namarie!
Varda Valar (00:56:05):    Thank you and namarie!
Arien V (00:56:32):    Namarie and my apologies for not turning up and aiya :)
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:56:19):    Aiya!
Varda Valar (00:56:49):    Aiya Arien :)
Arien V (00:56:54):    we got surprise invited to a bbq by our infinity friends :)
Varda Valar (00:57:03):    How marvelous :)
Ar-Pharazon-V (00:57:07):    Yum!
Arien V (00:57:53):    i had hoped we would make it back in time for the meeting but time passed and when i looked to the watch again it was already past start time and it seemed unfair to disappeaar then
Arien V (00:58:18):    but it was very yum and very fun :)

Varda Valar (00:58:51):    *the hammer sneaks over to the hammerpad and they eat barbecue together, banging tongs and spoons together for the hammer noise*
Arien V (00:59:39):    *lights it up golden*

Varda Valar (00:59:41):    After-meeting!
Varda Valar (00:59:45):    Free chat :)

Arien V (01:00:16):    uh i managed to ding 95 with the Guardian btw Varda :) [LotRO]
Varda Valar (01:00:41):    Woot! Grats Arien!
Arien V (01:00:47):    found a random who helped me with the Siege master in Brockbridge
Ar-Pharazon-V (01:00:48):    Grats!
Arien V (01:01:10):    thank you :)
Varda Valar (01:01:23):    Nice
Arien V (01:01:46):    in WoW Europe i got my last class into Legion .. the warrior :)
Ar-Pharazon-V (01:01:35):    Yay!
Arien V (01:02:28):    and in WoW US i only got three reps left to grind until flying :)
Varda Valar (01:02:56):    Loved flying in WoW. :) But it did make us miss a lot of the ground stuff going on.
Arien V (01:03:42):    thats the idea of the Pathfinder achievement .. you get to do all that Legion has to offer before you get flying
Varda Valar (01:03:55):    We were commenting that it was smart of you posting in Discord in case someone was around to help. Could work.
Arien V (01:04:16):    yup i thought i would try :)#
Arien V (01:04:57):    Gil Galad was on and Falco at the time but they were about to log when i came on then
Varda Valar (01:05:16):    ouch. It can happen though.
Arien V (01:06:04):    aye it can ... and ..i have to fly to bed i fear .. it was a long day and last night short :)
Arien V (01:06:19):    so just a short visit today
Varda Valar (01:06:21):    Thanks for dropping by!
Varda Valar (01:06:31):    Let's us know you're ok. :)
Varda Valar (01:06:37):    Sleep well!
Ar-Pharazon-V (01:06:17):    Namarie!
Arien V (01:06:54):    aye :) Namarie!
Ar-Pharazon-V (01:10:02):    I'll get started on my gaming report before it's Storm time.
Varda Valar (01:11:10):    Yay for time management. :)

Ar-Pharazon-V (01:15:37):    Flashgames!
Ar-Pharazon-V (01:16:11): is the first; different website again but apparently the link got changed later in the week, it wasn't responding well on the site where I first played it so I guess they changed it to link to another.
Ar-Pharazon-V (01:17:01):    A micromanagement game where you activate up to 2 crewmembers of your pirate ship at the same time, managing food, ship-health, and obstacles that come your way.
Ar-Pharazon-V (01:19:58): is a puzzle game where you have to rotate and switch around slices of pizza to match up the ingredients.
Ar-Pharazon-V (01:23:00):    and for the third game I give you which is a small-ish ghost-hunting point and click game. A few red herrings and some things you have to look hard to click on, but otherwise fun!
Ar-Pharazon-V (01:24:03):    Apparently should've been the first episode leading to a series, but I don't think others ever got made. It is the same company that made a ton of other smaller point and clicks that I've linked in the past, though :)

Ar-Pharazon-V (02:01:21):    Blizzard gaming!
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:02:22):    Heroes of the Storm: Level 200 today, wooh! Epic chest of the kind for this summer event, containing a legendary illidan skin and an epic summer skin for Stitches.
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:03:16):    This week's brawl was Pull Party, with 5 bikini stitches vs 5 bikini stitches on the opposite side of a small swimming pool, using hook pull to grab your enemies and bring them to your side where you can kill them. First to 20 kills wins. Funny, ridiculous, but quite intense :)
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:06:05):    Hearthstone: All classes are gradually starting the long trek from level 49 to level 50, for the last golden class cards (generally speaking). This week's brawl is the one where you choose a class, one card, and you get 22 copies of that card alongside 8 random class cards. A lot of fun to be had with a lot of options for that one card, can be quite overpowered, but then, so can your enemy's :)
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:06:50):    Got myself a golden quest legendary for the hunter, might be fun if I build a deck around it. If it works, I'd end up with a deck full of golden raptors ;)
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:12:38):    Now that I've gotten legendaries from the classic set and my first from the Un'goro set, I'm thinking I'll hold out opening packs for a while because when the next expansion comes, you can no longer get duplicate legendaries from a set, instead always getting new ones until you have all from that set.
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:12:49):    If I didn't, I'd kick myself every time I get a duplicate ;)
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:13:12):    WoW:
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:18:04):    Got to see the first 4 bosses in Tomb of Sargeras, killing the first 5 on normal, and then the first 2 on heroic tonight :) last tuesday we also went deeper on normal in the previous reset, up to 8/9 bosses killed, with a few good tries at Kil'jaeden, the last boss.
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:18:14):    So already close to the end, but the main focus will be on heroic.
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:19:57):    Some more world quests done, including one pet master fight and a couple of mark of honor pvp quests, giving me enough marks to buy the second arsenal, for pvp season 3. It was while buying season 4 stuff that I discovered the arsenals, so I'm almost done getting duplicates :)
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:26:51):    This week's weekly was doing 4 mythic dungeons, which in turn got me enough artifact power to get Concordance on my guardian artifact. After that I switched to pouring more AP into my balance and restoration artifacts, both of which almost immediately capped out to the point where they need broken shore Empowerment to continue.
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:28:36):    So I might get started on that next week, and any artifact power I get in the meantime will go my guardian or feral artifacts, not that it'll do much after getting the first Concordance.
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:31:16):    Cleared all the midsummer stuff I wanted to do! Got enough burning blossoms for the new toy, pet, and the 3 cosmetic items that are now unlockable for the appearance tab. I also killed Ahune twice a day, as mentioned earlier in the meeting, until I got the Illusion: Deathfrost I was after.
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:35:31):    And finally, poked the new concert thing at the Darkmoon Faire a few times. There are some odd achievements involved there, and I've gotten the 2 easier ones (including just participating), but it's also still slightly buggy.
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:35:47):    I'm sure they'll fix things along the way, I assume it's a permanent feature.
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:36:46):    And that's my report for the week!
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:42:22):    Oh! Almost forgot.
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:42:34):    I finished Arcatraz in my appearance hunting, getting the epic dagger.
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:43:00):    Started Black Morass (also known as Dark Portal) which is the last 5-man instance in BC that I'm missing stuff from.
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:43:20):    Only need items from normal, so it'll be faster, and I've already gotten 3 out of the 5 items I lacked.
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:43:49):    After that's done, hopefully by tuesday, I can start doing all the BC raids, one for every day of the week :)
Ar-Pharazon-V (02:45:10):    Now my report's done!

Varda Valar (02:51:07):    Thank you, Phar :)
Ar-Pharazon-V (03:54:05):    Namarie, transcript to follow tomorrow!
Varda Valar (03:54:36):    Thanks!