Valar Guild

January 19, 2014 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (UTC/GMT - 5)

AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

Back to News
Transcript work by Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (8)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, arwenv1, EonweValar (presiding), Indis-(V)/karakedi25, Ioreth-(V)/LizMarr, Menelvagor Valar (After-meeting), VardaValar1 (After-meeting)

Before-meeting
Meeting begins
Membership:
Web:
Gaming:
Tolkien:
    Five degrees of separation
After-meeting:
    continued Five degrees of separation.
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Before-meeting
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
AriehnV: Aiya Phari :-)
AriehnV: i thought i had still a bit time left to the meeting
ArPharazonV: You do. I just warned you before I logged off :P
AriehnV: *chuckles*
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
arwenv1 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya all :}
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
Eonwe Valar: Heya Arwen :} Been a while :}
Eonwe Valar: We'll give it a couple more minutes, then begin the meeting.
Eonwe Valar: OK, let's begin the meeting.
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Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: As you no doubt have in and the News page and Phar likely mentioned last week, Eowyn and her husband are now proud parents :} Which of course makes Varda and Fangorn proud grandparents :}
ArPharazonV: Arien was running it, actually.
Eonwe Valar: My apologies, Arien.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks for the correction.
AriehnV: hehe hey Arien
AriehnV: err aiya Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: :}
AriehnV: the report from last week should have been sent to you actually
ArPharazonV: to Varda, anyway
ArPharazonV: And I believe it's on there?
ArPharazonV: No it's not, guess she's not back yet.
Eonwe Valar: Varda is spreading some time with her new daughter and grandson, and may or may not be able to pop into the various online activities she normally engages in, including page updates, until she gets back.
ArPharazonV: Alas, last week's exploits appear not yet to be available online.
Eonwe Valar: Spreading = spending
Eonwe Valar: Er, daughter and new grandson. That sentence is full of problems, heh.
Eonwe Valar: Varda will make any updates she's not able to make now when she gets back.
arwenv1: grandson, her daughter is the old one though
arwenv1: teehee
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other member news?
arwenv1: not on my end.

ArPharazonV: I saw the end of The Hobbit (first movie) finally?
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
AriehnV: great :-) did you enjoy it?
ArPharazonV: I did.
ArPharazonV: The whole movie as a whole felt a bit less... mature than LotR, which makes sense, given the nature of the book, but it was still good.
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, that would describe some of the humour, aye.
ArPharazonV: Especially the Great Goblin's song made me almost literally facepalm.
ArPharazonV: But it was a good movie and I'm looking forward to the next one in EE next year ;-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
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Eonwe Valar: Web:
Eonwe Valar: The above Member info about Varda should explain why you won't see your new stories, poetry, articles, etc. put up immediately if you send them in. Feel free to send them in though. I'm sure Varda would love to read them, and will put them up as soon as she can when she gets back.
Eonwe Valar: Forum: Still waiting on the update to v5, which will be coming any time now.
Eonwe Valar: Some visual changes are being considered once the update occurs and we see what it'll do to and for our current layout.
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Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
LizMarr has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: Scouting report for Warlords of Draenor, giving us a little bit of what to expect: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/12426481/warlords-of-draenor%E 2%84%A2-scouting-report-1-16-2014
arwenv1: Cant wait for the beta of that
Eonwe Valar: I'm dubious about the selling of boosts to 90, but realize since they're including it with the purchase of WoD anyway, it would happen one way or another with people inclined to do so.
ArPharazonV: I just hope they learn their class before they raid with us!
arwenv1: Don't you know, thats what LFR is for =D
arwenv1: I think it would be great for people who want to get back into the game
arwenv1: or those with so many alts
Eonwe Valar: Proving Grounds would probably be a better place for that, given some better attention to it.
arwenv1: Proving Grounds is a bit boring though.
ArPharazonV: Imagine making a level one, turning him 90, and sending him straight to Draenor without so much as a gear upgrade...
arwenv1: and just because they get a boost to 90, doesn't mean they get one to 100
arwenv1: They will probably do something about that.
ArPharazonV: and seeing them get trodden into the ground by the first mob encountered.
Eonwe Valar: It's not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction. And aye, what Arwen said. They have 10 levels to get a feel for their character. Hopefully that'll be enough.
arwenv1: so people can go quest in Draenor right away, besides
Eonwe Valar: Well I'm sure they'll get a starter set.
arwenv1: some people have played their characters for 90 levels and still dont know how to do it, wont make a difference for 10 levels. If they want to figure it out they will, if they don't, no amount of levels will make them.
arwenv1: they gave you a starter set with the lvl 80 boost thing
LizMarr: they got draenar open on test now?
arwenv1: when you reactivated an account
Eonwe Valar: Not on PTR, no.
Eonwe Valar: It should be going into closed beta soon though, so if interested make sure you've opted in.
LizMarr: Varda said she was going to try the web page to logon
arwenv1: not that I know of, but it might be internal alpha, I've gotten friends and family betas for the past several expansions, so I'd have heard I hope.
arwenv1: Ever since WotLK anyways.
LizMarr: I've not gotten closed beta or alpha in wow, have gotten into closed beta every time since I started playing LOTRO
arwenv1: in betas I like to play a bit, but I hate spoiling the whole thing
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, everyone has the scouting report link to take a look :}
arwenv1: Usually they let you import characters and then make max ones too
LizMarr: did that in public beta. you know that server is still running? is it on all the time? (cut throat place it is)
arwenv1: for which game?
LizMarr: wow
LizMarr: it's been a couple weeks but I got right on
ArPharazonV: if beta starts soon, I hope we'll get more information about garrisons. Would rather like to know details for locations, buildings, available followers, etc.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: One more piece of WoW news before we move on to LotRO:
arwenv1: Depends on NDA as to how soon, but then it usually leaks anyways
Eonwe Valar: Lunar Festival will be starting soon, so if you have any achievements to complete or anything to collect for it, be ready.
ArPharazonV: Any idea if there'll be anything new?
Eonwe Valar: Nothing that I've seen announced recently.

Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: The winter festival is over.
Eonwe Valar: Looks like Sapience is going to be having some server events where the denizens of each server get to try and lead her Hobbit safely to Isengard.
Eonwe Valar: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?537901-Take-the-Hobbits-to-Isengard!
LizMarr: 3 of 4 days of Winterstock. 22 bands, visited even from other servers. pretty good music and dancing and free smokes (what else) and fireworks
Eonwe Valar: Players are welcome to either bring their characters in to get her there safely, or create their own Hobbit and get led there by the group.
LizMarr: I've attended pretty regular, they have a good web site. even if you don't do RP, it is just fun
ArPharazonV: Reminds me of the lvl 1 gnomes running from Ironforge to Stormwind.
ArPharazonV: Only more topical :-)
LizMarr: sapience is a he...
Eonwe Valar: That's right.. Don't know why I was thinking "she"
LizMarr: we used to have tauren herd but can't any more
Eonwe Valar: Replace me pronouns for Sapience with "he" and "him" above.
Eonwe Valar: *me = my
Eonwe Valar: Any other LotRO news?
LizMarr: http://lotroartists.com/servers/us/landroval/winterstock-2014/
Eonwe Valar: Anyone interested in the event should read the post I've linked. Looks like it's an opportunity for more than just "taking the Hobbits to Isengard."
LizMarr: like I said, landroval is famous for its RP
LizMarr: fun to watch even if you don't dance
LizMarr has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, back in the day, when US and EU servers were separate and there was no RP-designated server in the US list, it was the official unofficial RP server

Eonwe Valar: SC2:
Eonwe Valar: A couple of new previews from last week. Were they mentioned last week?
ArPharazonV: Don't recall.
Eonwe Valar: First one is on "Extension Mods": http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/12316139/patch-21-preview-extension-mods-1-7-2014
Eonwe Valar: Second one is on new levels and rewards: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/12277092/patch-21-preview-more-levels-and-new-rewards-1-9-2014

Eonwe Valar: D3:
Eonwe Valar: Info for the pre-expansion patch and the expansion itself is going through the background downloader.
Eonwe Valar: Looks like it's about 6 gigs in size.
Eonwe Valar: Don't forget D3: Reaper of Souls will be available March 25th :}
ArPharazonV: Hmm. Might have to load up the program while I'm browsing or idling now and then, and let the downloader come through?
ArPharazonV: Or I'll just wait until I get the expansion.
Eonwe Valar: Either way you'd rather do it.
Eonwe Valar: I was going to wait until Ioreth got back to thank her for the LotRO-related link, but she's not back so,.. thanks Ioreth :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news?
arwenv1: RoS is awesome!
karakedi25 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: :}
karakedi25: aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya Indis :}
Eonwe Valar: We were just wrapping up gaming news. Did you have any to add?
ArPharazonV: Oh, yes.

WoW continued:
ArPharazonV: I'll just add in an update to my ventures on the Timeless Isle
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead, Phar :}
ArPharazonV: that I got my 100th Bloody Coin yesterday, and got my newest pet for it. Managed the last 25 in one day, with the help of one friend who let me kill his characters 10 times :-)
Eonwe Valar: Somehow that doesn't seem quite right, heh.
ArPharazonV: Next on my little pre-expansion project list is to level up a bunch of pets for the Celestial Tournament. I'll need to do that weekly for 10 weeks to get all the possible pets from that, but for now let's start with making good teams of pets for it.
Eonwe Valar: Good luck :}

ArPharazonV: Also! Flashgaming. Not much unusual in the games played this week, but there has been an update on the website I play them on, Kongregate.
karakedi25: Has anyone talked about LotRO?
ArPharazonV: As you may know I've been trying to do the "badge of the day" every day when possible, for about a year now; still a lot of fun, still get to see a lot of different games.
ArPharazonV: They added in a new system where they release pets or "companions" for you to collect, by doing at least one badge of the day every week, and if you do five in a week you get a shiny version of that pet, which is unique to every week. There are even plans to use them in games later on. So now I have yet another place to compulsively collect pets ;-)
ArPharazonV: So if you've visited Kongregate in the past, and are thinking of playing some games, I recommend going for them, even if you just like to collect stuff.
arwenv1: hehe

arwenv1: Wow news for me: my main got her legendary cloak.
ArPharazonV: And that's pretty much it for me.
ArPharazonV: Grats!

arwenv1: I used to play a game on Kongregate, was a tower defense one.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Phar :}
Eonwe Valar: And congrats Arwen :}
arwenv1: Is a cool site though, yes :-)
arwenv1: thanks :-)

Eonwe Valar: Indis has more LotRO news for us. Your floor, Indis :}
ArPharazonV: Odds are by now that I've played it too, Arwen :-)
karakedi25: Looking for the link with the list of changes...
karakedi25: There will be an update to the expansion soon: update 12.2. There is quite a list of fixes, none of them huge, but a number that will make some of the class changes easier on players
karakedi25: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?538616-Update-12-2-Preliminary-Release-Notes-B ullroarer-ONLY-%E2%80%93-SUBJECT-TO-CHANGE
karakedi25: The update is currently on the public test server, Bullroarer. Anyone can play on it, no need for an invitation.
karakedi25: They're gradually fixing some of the raw spots left when they rushed the expansion to live, also.
karakedi25: I think that's all of general interest. On a personal note, I have 3 characters at level cap now, and two on the way.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Indis and congrats :}
karakedi25: I'm done, unless there are questions
Eonwe Valar: Looks like no questions. Any other gaming news? Now is the time to whisper me a Tolkien topic as well.

ArPharazonV: Hmm, late addition, a reminder that I just came across while browsing.
karakedi25: About to start an instance, so I'll be semi-afk
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead Phar.
ArPharazonV: http://www.legendsofequestria.com/ this MLP-based MMO's second open server test is starting in 5 days, so if you want to wander around in a fresh new alpha-stage MMO for a few days, as a pony, now's your chance!
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Phar :}
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Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
Eonwe Valar: Ok, everyone here and ready for some sort of Tolkien fun, say Taniquetil :}
ArPharazonV: Taniquetil
ArPharazonV: Actually had to backspace there a few times to get the spelling right.
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Well if it's just you and me Phar, I guess we can discuss the *insert big fancy words* of *insert obscur person, place, or event in Tolkien's mythos* :}
ArPharazonV: Like the left shoe of Eorl?
Eonwe Valar: Exactly! And why this shoe was so important! What made it so much better than the right shoe? Why did he choose to wear that particular shoe on that particular day?
Eonwe Valar: If he had put his shoes on backwards, might he have survived that day?
ArPharazonV: If he wore the wrong shoe, he might've fallen off his horse, and his people would not have been able to help Gondor in their hour of need.
karakedi25: No, if his horse wore the wrong shoe.
ArPharazonV: Such horror!
Eonwe Valar: :}

Eonwe Valar: OK, for something a little different, how about,.. I think it would be called "5 degrees of separation", LotR style. Connect 2 characters in 5 steps or less.
Eonwe Valar: I.e. If I say Aragorn and Rosie Cotton, you would say "Aragorn was part of the Fellowship with Sam Gamgee, who went on to marry Rosie Cotton."
Eonwe Valar: Everyone game?
ArPharazonV: Sure, sounds fun.
karakedi25: ok with me

Eonwe Valar: OK, let's start with something not too hard. Frodo Baggins and Radagast the Brown.
karakedi25: Frodo with Gandalf, Gandalf with Radagast
ArPharazonV: Hmm, I wanted to do something with hobbits and Isengard, but that works too :-)
Eonwe Valar: Let's include what connection each has to the next link in the chain as well.
Eonwe Valar: I would say that if you have one in mind, you could use it and we could try to connect it, but I think we could get it at this point :}
Eonwe Valar: Since I went first, and Indis is the next in channel list order, did you have one, Indis?
ArPharazonV: Frodo is related to Merry and Pippin, who were taken to Isengard, which is home to Saruman, who is a colleague of Radagast the brown!
Eonwe Valar: Oh, pardon, thought you meant the the suggestion for what to link, but aye, actually, that works too :}
ArPharazonV: Yes, this is what I meant :-)
Eonwe Valar: Frodo > Merry and Pippin > Saruman > Radagast :}
karakedi25: No, not really. In fact, I can't think of any that can't be linked.
karakedi25: Or that would be very difficult
ArPharazonV: Throw in an Isengard in there if you want to make the connection clearer, but yes, that's the idea :-)

Eonwe Valar: Fëanor to Frodo? :}
Eonwe Valar: Actually no, I could link those, lol.
karakedi25: Feanor was related to Galadriel who hosted Frodo and helped him.
ArPharazonV: I'd go through a Palantir myself to get there.
ArPharazonV: Feanor creates palantir, palantir ends up used by Pippin, who is related to Frodo.
Eonwe Valar: I was thinking Fëanor was the brother of Fingolfin, who was the ancestor of Elrond, who healed Frodo in Rivendell.
karakedi25: Same principle

Eonwe Valar: For these connections I was thinking more a connection directly between people, not really a connection through objects.
ArPharazonV: Allright.
Eonwe Valar: Though those obviously can be made as well.
Eonwe Valar: Maybe we should be trying to see who we *can't* link in 5 or fewer steps, lol.
ArPharazonV: Through people?

ArPharazonV: Hmm... I'll go with Ungoliant and Bill the Pony.
ArPharazonV: Good luck.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, as in X person knows/ is friends with/is related to Y person.
Eonwe Valar: Ungoliant is the mother of Shelob, who attacked Sam, who cared for Bill the Pony :}
AriehnV: nice one

Eonwe Valar: Here's one:
Eonwe Valar: Ghan-buri-ghan and Ar-Pharazon.
ArPharazonV: Ghan-buri-ghan worked with Theoden, who fought alongside Aragorn, whose ancestor is Elros, who is also an ancestor of Ar-Pharazon.
karakedi25: as I said, it's going to be hard to find any we can't connect
Eonwe Valar: Aye :}
karakedi25: it's going to be hard to find any we can't connect
karakedi25 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: But part of the fun is making the connection anyway, so I guess that's not too terrible, here :}
Eonwe Valar: hehe = hehe
karakedi25 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: *here = hehe
karakedi25: I seem to have missed some of the conversation
Eonwe Valar: WB Indis :} You missed:
Eonwe Valar: But part of the fun is making the connection anyway, so I guess that's not too terrible, here :} hehe = hehe
karakedi25: I'd be surprised if we could find any that have no connection at all
Eonwe Valar: Eonwe Valar 5:47 pm *here = hehe

Eonwe Valar: The spiders of Mirkwood,.. and Ioreth of Minas Tirith.
karakedi25: spiders-bilbo-frodo-merry-ioreth
ArPharazonV: The thing about the system is that if you find someone who has *no connection at all* to another person, every person connected to the first person cannot be connected to the second person either. You get like.. separate "clouds" of people and their connections.
karakedi25: spiders attacked and killed by bilbo; bilbo uncle of frodo, frodo close to merry, merry attended by ioreth in houses of healing
ArPharazonV: That's why you can never find actors without a bacon number :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Well, like I said, part of the fun is in the connecting, matching those relationships, making the most direct connection, that kind of thing :}

Eonwe Valar: Say, Tom Bombadil and Golasgil :}
ArPharazonV: I'm not sure who Golasgil is.
karakedi25: Bombadil helped the hobbits, especially Pippin, who as at Minas Tirith when Golasgil led his men there
Eonwe Valar: Lord of the Langstrand, brought some of his men to the aid of Minas Tirith as Indis noted.
ArPharazonV: Aha.
karakedi25: *was

AriehnV: an easy one . Imrahil ..Amrod
Eonwe Valar: Amrod? or Amroth?
AriehnV: Amrod? the lad who was after Nimrodel i think?
Eonwe Valar: Pretty sure that was Amroth.
karakedi25: Son of Feanor
Eonwe Valar: Hence the name, Dol Amroth :}
AriehnV: Amroth then then all right i mean him :-)
karakedi25: Imrahil was of elven descedent, so at the most distant there would have been a connection through Cuivienen
Eonwe Valar: "He was of X race like Y person" is a poor link that we should probably skip for the purposes of this game, were we to do it again, hehe.
karakedi25: sorry, gaming at the same time, and have to keep an eye on whether there are enemies about
Eonwe Valar: No worries.
ArPharazonV: Are we still allowed to use ancestry? Otherwise our options for five steps become extremely limited.
Eonwe Valar: Ancestry is a little more direct than "He was an Elf" so yes.
Eonwe Valar: Eol was an Elf. Doesn't give him a direct link to Ingwe unless we know the two actually met.
karakedi25: That wasn't exactly what I said. I said he had some elven ancestry, and so at least there would be link through the orignial elves. There's no way he would have met with a son of Feanor. We could say that he became close to Aragorn, who was raised by Elrond, who did know the sons of Feanor at first hand.
ArPharazonV: He was the father of, who was the son of, who was the daughter of, who presumably met Ingwe on Aman?
Eonwe Valar: I was just pointing out it was something to be avoided, Indis. If we have an actual character to trace back to, then use that character to link to someone else, great, but better to avoid vague links.
karakedi25: Eol would have known Thingol, who of course did know Ingwe.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, *that* would be a link between Eol and Ingwe.
ArPharazonV: That works too.
karakedi25: did you see my alternative for Imrahil?
Eonwe Valar: Being part of a race doesn't work as a link, i.e., "Gimli was a Dwarf, and we know Dwarves fought in the Wars of Beleriand, and so did Ancalagon" is not a link.
Eonwe Valar: " There's no way he would have met with a son of Feanor. We could say that he became close to Aragorn, who was raised by Elrond, who did know the sons of Feanor at first hand." That one, Indis?
karakedi25: yes, the aragorn elrond link
Eonwe Valar: Well, expanded a bit, aye, that would probably work for Imrahil -> Amrod.
Eonwe Valar: Arien was going for Inrahil -> Amroth though :}
Eonwe Valar: *Imrahil
karakedi25: Inrahil or Imrahil?
Eonwe Valar: Typo on my part, corrected immediately after :}
Eonwe Valar: If we go by UT, I believe we would have something along the lines of Imrahil, descendant of a human lord (whose name escapes me at the moment), who took for wife a handmaid of Nimrodel, who was in love with Amroth.
AriehnV: i had that in mind Eonwe
AriehnV: somewhere in my subconcious memory
ArPharazonV: Sounds about right. What age was this?
Eonwe Valar: Still the Third Age I think? Can't be much further back than the mid-late Second.
ArPharazonV: Well if I recall Dol Amroth was a Faithful stronghold, so must've dated to late Second.
ArPharazonV: So either it was renamed after the whole Nimrodel-situation, or its founding was around the same time.
ArPharazonV: Also, Varda is trying to come in, but I can't invite her. Can you?
Eonwe Valar: No, doesn't look like what she's using supports it.
Eonwe Valar: Varda says hi to everyone though :}
Eonwe Valar: It is 7:22 Valar Time now. Shall we bang the gavel? :}
ArPharazonV: Guess so.
Eonwe Valar: *Raises gavel into the air*
Eonwe Valar: *Bangs Gavel*
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Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting:
Eonwe Valar: I must go afk for a moment, but feel free all to continue chatting Tolkien, or be free and go game :}
Eonwe Valar: Back
karakedi25: wb
ArPharazonV: Aiyata
Eonwe Valar: Hantalye :}
AriehnV: welcome back aye

Eonwe Valar: OK, here's one to link (I know it can be done but why not anyway, hehe) Gimli, and Glaurung :}
karakedi25: Glaurung was a creature of Morgoth, whose lieutenant Sauron was. Sauron made the ring, which tortured Frodo as he went through Mordor. Gimly was a member of Frodo's fellowship and a close friend by the end.
karakedi25: And of course Sauron was the great enemy of both.
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Woot! That worked!
ArPharazonV: Well, if Glaurung was truly "father of dragons" and therefore ancestral to Smaug...
Eonwe Valar: Heya Varda :}
ArPharazonV: an easy link presents itself?
karakedi25: aiya, Varda
ArPharazonV: Aiya Varda!
VardaValar1: Thank you to Faramir-(init) for finding a way to connect.
VardaValar1: So, we have Glaurung, Smaug?
Eonwe Valar: Indis's link was pretty good. I'm a bit iffy on the Sauron > Frodo because it seems the primary link there is the Ring, but overall it works.
Eonwe Valar: Linking Gimli to Glaurung was the challenge I posed :}
karakedi25: if the Ring doesn't work, common eney might
karakedi25: *enemy
karakedi25: the Ring did, of course, have something of a personality of its own
Eonwe Valar: Well, none of them acutally "met" Sauron, so a loose link there. I'm 50/50 on saying "common enemy" works.
VardaValar1: Glaurung gave the silvan elves a hard time, like Gwindor. Gimli was friends with a silvan elf Legolas. Reaching a bit. :-)
Eonwe Valar: I ruled out "X is the same race/group as Y" already :}
VardaValar1: He was actually a Sindar, so it's not quite there yet
VardaValar1: o ok :-)
Eonwe Valar: Must be connection by meeting, friendship, ancestry, that kind of thing.
ArPharazonV: So is Glaurung ancestral to Smaug?
ArPharazonV: Because then we can link them through Bilbo and Gloin :-)
VardaValar1: Father of dragons comment was good.
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, Glaurung was called "Father of dragons" so I suppose ancestrally it could work, assuming the winged dragons through Ancalagon came from glaurung's stock.
Eonwe Valar: I'll allow the Glaurung link through ancestry.
Eonwe Valar: If you can finish the link from him to Gimli via Smaug :}
ArPharazonV: Glauring is ancestral to Smaug, who encountered Bilbo, who travelled with Gloin, who was the father of Gimli.
Eonwe Valar: You could've cut Bilbo out of there and still made that connection :}
karakedi25: It's not clear if 'father of dragons' means the others were descended from him or if he was the first
ArPharazonV: I could, if I was sure that Gloin and Smaug actually *met*.
VardaValar1: Sauron used Smaug as a tool, Gimli fought against Sauron by helping take Sauron's Ring towards Mordor. *stretch*
Eonwe Valar: Well, good point there.
Eonwe Valar: I did narrow it down because of Sauron.
Eonwe Valar: I would've made the following connection:
Eonwe Valar: Gimli has met Elrond, who is descendant of Tuor, cousin of Turin, who slew Glaurung.
VardaValar1: Nice
ArPharazonV: Nice one.
Eonwe Valar: Now here's one I'm still working out, due to my restriction on no links via items.

Eonwe Valar: Gimli to Telchar.
karakedi25: I can't do that without reference to genealogies, as we can't use items
ArPharazonV: If all the 7 fathers of the dwarves were originally together at their creation, we can go ancestor meets ancestor, though we have names for them.
ArPharazonV: *no names
karakedi25: I believe that he did make the Naugramir, which means he almost certainly met Thingol, whose descendant Elrond was, and we can take it from there.
Eonwe Valar: Actually, hmm..
karakedi25: Or maybe he didn't make the Naugramir. But he might well have met Thingol as part of all the crafting at Menegroth.
Eonwe Valar: Gimli knows Elrond, descendant of Beren, who took the knife Angrist from Curufin directly (they fought and thus they met). The knife Angrist was forged by Telchar, and it's likely would've been delivered by him to Curufin in person.
VardaValar1: Telchar made Angrist, Narsil, the dragon-helm
Eonwe Valar: It's rough, and based on assumption,..
ArPharazonV: Even a messenger between Telchar and Curufin could be added.
karakedi25: It's tough, since there isn't a lot of information about Telchar other than what he made.
VardaValar1: The dragon-helm may have been made in reaction to Glaurung, so that could run us through the earlier points of connection.
Eonwe Valar: "he met the messenger who had met Telchar" feels like a bit of a cheat though.
Eonwe Valar: And aye, Indis.
Eonwe Valar: Easy links through Angrist and Anduril, a bit harder through personal relationships.
Eonwe Valar: Did Telchar forge the dragon-helm? I don't recall that part off the top of my head.
karakedi25: yes
VardaValar1: Telchar''s master was Gamil Zirak. I wonder if he met Celebrimbor?
Eonwe Valar: OK, now where are we getting the name of his master?
VardaValar1: That may be wrong. Double-checking
karakedi25: If their lives overlapped. Celebrimbor was a descendant of Feanor, but he might have lived after Telchar died. We need some chronology for this one.
ArPharazonV: Celebrimbor is the son of Curufin, I believe?
ArPharazonV: Curufin did not survive the First Age.
karakedi25: But Celebrimbor did.
ArPharazonV: Therefore, Celebrimbor was born in the First Age.
karakedi25: True. When did Telchar die?
VardaValar1: Zirak was in the UT, The Departure of Turin, according to Tolkien Gateway. I don't have my books.
Eonwe Valar: Telchar was around during the Third Age of Melkor's Captivity in Aman. Dwarves average about a 250-year lifespan. Not sure when/where Celebrimbor was born, whether in Endor or Aman.
VardaValar1: http://www.tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Celebrimbor
VardaValar1: hah, Glaurung is on the helm as decoration:
VardaValar1: http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/articles/h/HelmofHador.htm
Eonwe Valar: I'm not seeing anything in the Sil saying the helm was forged by Telchar. Was that in another booked then? UT maybe? Or the Lays of Beleriand perhaps since I haven't read that in a long while?
ArPharazonV: In earlier versions of the story such as the second version of The Lay of the Children of Hurin (The Lays of Beleriend) and those in the The Shaping of Middle-earth; Telchar was originally one of the wicked dwarves of Belegost (certain elements got switched around including where dwarves originated from see Indrafang). In that version Telchar also made the Dragon-helm in the dark dwarfland in the deeps of time.
ArPharazonV: that's from his lotr.wikia page
Eonwe Valar: Ok.
VardaValar1: Children of Hurin: The Helm of Hador was a great helmet and a family heirloom of the house of Hador. It was forged by Telchar c. 260. It was given in the keeping of Thingol by Morwen until Túrin came of age.
VardaValar1: That's from our site, the link above.
ArPharazonV: *gasp* we have a site?
VardaValar1: We need to be adding to it, but yes. :-)
Eonwe Valar: That's a cue for all of you to fill Varda's inbox while she's out of town :}
VardaValar1: Yay!
Eonwe Valar: *with Tolkien-Site contributions, that is :}
VardaValar1: Aye :-)
karakedi25: Fun as this is, I need to get some dinner. I'll be afk, in case there's any more discussion.
Eonwe Valar: OK, so we've decided that most people -> Telchar is going to be tough since we don't have too much on his life specifically, just on what he made.
Eonwe Valar: Bon apetit Indis :}
VardaValar1: Celebrimbor died S.A. 1690
VardaValar1: er
VardaValar1: 1697
karakedi25: Telchar would have died well before that.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: Celbrimbor, son of Curufin, son of Feanor

Eonwe Valar: OK, here's a hard one... Rosie Cotton and.... Sam Gamgee :}
VardaValar1: *Celebrimbor. Not my night for typing.
VardaValar1: Elanor
ArPharazonV: I do believe they met on occasion.
ArPharazonV: Once on a wedding, even.
karakedi25: I believe they even became intimate.
arwenv1 has left the room.
karakedi25: Could they have been connected through Elanor?
VardaValar1: Shared genes
Eonwe Valar: Like Phar, I would've just gone straight to the connection via "Rosie married Sam Gamgee" myself :}
Eonwe Valar: Checkmate in 1 move, hehe.

Eonwe Valar: Ok, a wilder connection... The spiders of Mirkwood, and....
Eonwe Valar: Farmer Maggot's mushrooms :}
VardaValar1: I was just playing :-)
karakedi25: spiders to Bilbo, Bilbo to Frodo and friends, the hobbits to Farmer Maggot and his mushrooms
karakedi25: of course the mushrooms are an item :-P
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: The last two were obviously in fun :}
VardaValar1: The mushrooms became part of hobbit bodies.
VardaValar1: So we could go spiders - Bilbo - Farmer Maggot
ArPharazonV: Or spiders - Bilbo - Frodo since Frodo ate mushrooms?
VardaValar1: Right!
VardaValar1: The uncle nephew business is surely secondary to mushrooms.
karakedi25: We don't know for sure if Bilbo ate Maggott's mushrooms, though he probably did at some point
VardaValar1: All this wild speculation!
Eonwe Valar: :}
ArPharazonV: I wonder if Telchar ate Maggot's mushrooms through space and time!
VardaValar1: Ancestral spores of Maggot's mushrooms?
karakedi25: He probably made the fertilizer Maggot used.
VardaValar1: Dwarves living underground might have eaten quite a few mushrooms.
VardaValar1: *imagines Gimli and Sam having conversations about mushrooms on the journey*
Eonwe Valar: hehe
AriehnV: shiny mushrooms? red glowing and blue sparkling in green light?
VardaValar1: Those might not be entirely safe
ArPharazonV: "What do you mean, your mushrooms don't glow? Then how can you find them?"
AriehnV: *gg* the cave of shining mushrooms* invents new dungeon :-D
VardaValar1: Love it.
VardaValar1: LotRO does have caves with mushrooms.And WoW has a forest of giant mushrooms that would drive Hobbits crazy.
AriehnV: indeed .. well i trundle to bed now and dream of .. mushrooms probably :-)

ArPharazonV: Namarie!
VardaValar1: Happy dreams!
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien :}
AriehnV: thank you
AriehnV: Namarie for now :-)
AriehnV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Namarie ilye Valar. :-)
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
Eonwe Valar: Take care Varda :} Good to see you :}
VardaValar1: Great to make it in!
VardaValar1 has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya Menel :}
karakedi25: aiya Menel
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
Eonwe Valar: You just missed Varda by seconds.
Menelvagor Valar: Dagnabbit!
karakedi25: I'm going to call it a night too--this was for me one of the best Tolkien discussions we've had in a long time
Menelvagor Valar: I planned on being home earlier today..
Menelvagor Valar: I failed marginally by about 4 hours.
Menelvagor Valar: What was the discussion about?
Eonwe Valar: For Tolkien? We did 5 degrees of Separation, LotR style.
Menelvagor Valar: Heads u[, I had one too many beers. I might need some extra information :-)
karakedi25: namarie
karakedi25 has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie Indis. Good nigth!
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Indis, belatedly :}
Eonwe Valar: Put simply, connect character A to character B via intermediate characters.

Eonwe Valar: I.E. Frodo to Radagast.
Eonwe Valar: Frodo knows Gandalf, who in turn knows Radagast.
Eonwe Valar: Try to do so in 5 steps or less.

Menelvagor Valar: Turgron to Turin :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Which can be done in 2 steps provided you count the single meeting between Turin and Tuor as the 2nd. Otherwise it's 3, via their fathers :-P
Eonwe Valar: Aye, that's the idea.
Eonwe Valar: Seems alot of people can be connected in 3 or fewer steps, hehe.

Menelvagor Valar: Varda to Aragorn :-)
Eonwe Valar: Varda met Fingolfin, who is an anscestor of Aragorn :}
Eonwe Valar: *ancestor
Menelvagor Valar: A lot of steps between Fingolfin and Aragorn though.
Menelvagor Valar: I was thinking more along the lines of Varda - Cirdan - Elrond - Aragorn.
Menelvagor Valar: Or, better yet, Varda - Galadriel - Aragorn.
Eonwe Valar: Well, I allowed ancestry as a single step, hehe.
ArPharazonV: Ancestry counts as a step.
Menelvagor Valar: That makes things infinitely more easy though.

Menelvagor Valar: You can Connect Beren to Frodo in 2 steps that way.
Menelvagor Valar: Though I suspect one can do that on a direct route as well :-)

Eonwe Valar: Relationship, friendship, or meeting. Ruled out connection by item. i.e. Anduril does not connect Aragorn to Telchar.
Menelvagor Valar: That isn't really a connection anyways, unless you count Items of Power.
Eonwe Valar: I suppose next time we try it, we may limit it to single-generation, i.e. parents or children.
Menelvagor Valar: Sauron, in a way, does share a connection to Frodo, through the One Ring.
Eonwe Valar: Well, you couldn't say "Aragorn wields Anduril, which was forged by Telchar" to connect say, Gimli to Telchar.
Menelvagor Valar: Though that is mainly due to Saurong having poured forth much of his power into the Ring.
Menelvagor Valar: Except that Anduril was not forged by Telchar.
Eonwe Valar: Yes it was.
Eonwe Valar: Unless you're getting technical and pointing out that it was Narsil :}
Menelvagor Valar: Anduril was reforged and renamed. Its connection is tenuous at best.
Menelvagor Valar: I do get technical on that point.
Menelvagor Valar: It's almost saying Turgon and Gandalf share a direct connection through Orcrist.
Eonwe Valar: Not quite.
Eonwe Valar: Orcrist and Glamdring are literally two different swords. Anduril is still Narsil reforged.
ArPharazonV: I thought Glamdring was Turgon's sword.
Menelvagor Valar: Sorry, late / drunk, mixing up things... Turgon + Gandalf through Glamdring or Thorin + Turgon through Orcrist.
Eonwe Valar: I don't recall who wielded Orcrist before Thorin, if we have a name for it's previous owner, but Glamdring was indeed Turgon.
Menelvagor Valar: Might have been Ecthelion.
ArPharazonV: Not Turgon named I believe, but he was Gondolin's only king.
Menelvagor Valar: Though in the Hobbit, it's only alluded at that it was Turgon's. but nowhere else verified.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, don't believe they actually named him in the Hobbit, but he was *the* king of Gondolin, so aye, the evidence is there.
ArPharazonV: That kinda makes it verified.
Menelvagor Valar: I would hardly claim myth or folk tale as evidence though :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Even when it comes from Gandalf.
Eonwe Valar: I would trust Elrond's first-hand knowledge of the First Age :}
Menelvagor Valar: For Gandalf only came to Middle Earth in the third Age.
ArPharazonV: And Elrond was not around while Turgon was alive.
ArPharazonV: He's not some big expert on the first age; yes, he was around, but only for the last few years.
Menelvagor Valar: Close call though :-)
Eonwe Valar: Elrond was Turgon's great grandson. I think he'd know about the heirlooms of his house.
Menelvagor Valar: Then again, of the wise, only Galadriel and Celebrimbor in Middle Earth can be counted on being experts of the first age.
Menelvagor Valar: Point taken :-)
ArPharazonV: His House was in complete disarray from the moment he was born until he and his brother (and, well, technically his parents) were the only ones left.
ArPharazonV: But he would have done some research into it at a later age.
Menelvagor Valar: I would reckon indeed.
ArPharazonV: Well, it's late, I'm gonna save and send.

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