Valar Guild

February 16, 2014 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (UTC/GMT - 5)

AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by Ar-Pharazon, Eonwe, and Varda.

Attending: (6)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), Indis-(V)/karakedi25, Menelvagor Valar, VardaValar1

Before-meeting
Meeting begins
Membership:
    Faramir
Web:
    Forum changes
Gaming:
Tolkien:
    RP discussion
    Question: How much would the Silvan tongue differ from the old days before the trek from Cuivienen to Aman?
After-meeting:
    Continues language discussion.
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Before-meeting
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
Eonwe Valar: I guess we'll give it a couple more minutes to see who else shows :}
AriehnV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
karakedi25 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Indis and Arien :}
karakedi25: aiya
AriehnV: aiya Eonwe , indis and Phara :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya Indis!
Eonwe Valar: OK, let's go ahead and begin the meeting.
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Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: You all are here :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other Membership news?
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Eonwe Valar: Web:
AriehnV: *shakes head at the membership question*
Eonwe Valar: If you've been on the forum this week, you'll notice the names are more colorful than they were :}
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Sorry about that, random internet disconnect.
ArPharazonV: Aiyata
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.
karakedi25: Have to reboot my computer. Back in a bit.
karakedi25 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: As I was saying, to help make officers as well as other members more visible to the Guild, we now have Member Groups for our different honors and levels of membership.
Eonwe Valar: *Member Groups on the forum.
Eonwe Valar: I've tried to go through the roster of forum accounts and get everyone I could be certain was a member of the Valar Guild and using the Guild Name into the proper Member Group.
Eonwe Valar: *using their
ArPharazonV: Must've been some effort.
Eonwe Valar: It was quite a list to go through and try to verify , aye :}
Eonwe Valar: Right now the only difference of note is the colors of the display names once you're in the proper group: Tolkien Members are sort of a bluish-grey, Full Members are a bronzish color, Maiar silver, Valar gold. Simple color scheme right now :}
Eonwe Valar: And of course the proper Member Group displaying under your display name.
Eonwe Valar: The changes with v5 may allow us to do fancier things in the future however, so we'll see what's available and what fits.
karakedi25 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Member Groups are something that's been discussed in the past, but v5 made it a bit more feasible and worthwhile.
Eonwe Valar: Aiyata Indis :}
karakedi25: hantale
ArPharazonV: We already had ranks, though, didn't we? In the forum? Stars and all that?
Eonwe Valar: Well, we had "staff" ranks, i.e. moderator, global mod, Admin, and we had some ranks based on post count.
karakedi25: The Valar Guild is not large. What is the advantage of advertising ranks?
Eonwe Valar: We have some 120-odd members last count, though we are probably due for a sweep. Also, it's not advertising so much as making it obvious who people can go to for any questions about the guild, who can test ,etc.
ArPharazonV: I guess we dream large? :-)
Eonwe Valar: It's basically reflecting on the Forum what people can see on our pages for easier recognition, just as we can see it in games.
Eonwe Valar: And aye, Phar :}
Eonwe Valar: My apologies, the Games Site has our current count sitting at 156 members admitting to playing 12 games.
karakedi25: admitting?
karakedi25: sounds as though they're confessing to something
Eonwe Valar: Admitting --> Those who responded to the Games Site Mass-Update e-mail asking people to update their gamign info :}
ArPharazonV: "I deny playing anything!" *goes back to WoW*
karakedi25: ?
Eonwe Valar: I use the word "admitting" with humorous intent.
karakedi25: ok
Eonwe Valar: I always have when I've jokingly talked about members "admitting" to playing games. :}
Eonwe Valar: The point is that we have members playing 12 games that we know of, based on who responded to the GSMU e-mail.
Eonwe Valar: To further answer you question on the advantages, Indis, I also said this before you came in :
Eonwe Valar: "The changes with v5 may allow us to do fancier things in the future however, so we'll see what's available and what fits."
AriehnV: according to my mother i am completely not "acting my age" by playing mmorpgs , roleplaying and Larping :-P
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: "Member Groups are something that's been discussed in the past, but v5 made it a bit more feasible and worthwhile."
ArPharazonV: Pff, the age-stereotype is something to shrug off ;-) I think there was a saying about how being an adult means not worrying about being an adult.
Eonwe Valar: Any other questions/comments on the Member Groups?
karakedi25: Apparently not
Eonwe Valar: Indeed.
Eonwe Valar: Well, you know where to find me if you do :}
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Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: WoW: Love is in the Air event is going on right now.
ArPharazonV: Oi! Forgot to fight apothecaries today. Will do that now.
ArPharazonV: Still missing the rocket mount, but I think otherwise this year has nothing new.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, nothing new.
Eonwe Valar: They didn't even bother upping the ilvl of the necklaces, so if you have everything from previous LiitA events, you're still all set.
ArPharazonV: or.. you know.. better
ArPharazonV: like Timeless Isle stuff :-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye :}

Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: Sapience is still not ready to take *his* Hobbit on Landroval to Isengard :}
karakedi25: My news is somewhat depressing...
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead Indis.
karakedi25: some of you may know that Turbine suffered layoffs last week
karakedi25: Most of them appear to have come from DDO and LotRO.
karakedi25: Some well-known names were let go, along with a fair number associated with QA
karakedi25: Needless to say, we're sad for those affected, and also, I feel for those left behind, who must be seriously demoralized.
karakedi25: And also needless to say, there's a lot of speculation about what this means for LotRO, though there's no hard information.
karakedi25: We don't even know if the 'roadmap' in the producer's letter is still valid. Sapience has said nothing, though he's limited in what he can share without clearance.
karakedi25: Nothing new to say about gameplay.
karakedi25: though ---> we can assume that
Eonwe Valar: Aye. I hope they are able to keep their plans on track. They were going to be revisiting alot of stuff people have been asking to be revisited, and now they've got less staff with which to do it.
karakedi25: Right, though some posters on the forum who are familiar with large corporations have indicated that such layoffs are not spur-of-the-moment, but are planned well in advance, including consultations and clearances. We can therefore hope that the 'roadmap' was made with advance knowledge of the staff to be available to execute it.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: Might be the reason there's no new raids in those calculations.
karakedi25: In any case, it's very saddening news for me, and I can only hope that the game will survive and even prosper, though perhaps in more limited ways.
karakedi25: There was a huge amount invested in the mechanics of Helm's Deep, which might account for lack of raids, but lack of an expansion could well be related to finances etc.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, the Big Battles system was the big thing for Helm's Deep.
karakedi25: And hasn't been met with a lot of enthusiasm.
Eonwe Valar: I haven't tried it so I can't comment either way on it.
Eonwe Valar: It sounded interesting in theory last I read about it though.
karakedi25: I have. It's ok, but it doesn't sustain interest for very long. As a simulation of a major battle, it's very interesting and generally well done, but it doesn't leave a lot of room for playing one's class.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks for bringing this information to our attention Indis.
karakedi25: You're welcome. I wish it had been cheerier.
AriehnV: sorry to hear it but thanks for that

Eonwe Valar: Pardon, I realized there are a couple of more pieces of WoW news.
Eonwe Valar: The big one is that the Challenge mode season will be coming to an end in "a" patch prior to Warlords of Draenor. This means that once that patch hits, you won't be able to get any of the challenge mode rewards for the Mists of Pandaria dungeons.
Eonwe Valar: See the announcement here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/12930280/challenge-mode-end-of-season-early-warning-2-13-201 4
Eonwe Valar: Second, they added some info on some more characters for the "Characters of Warcraft" section of the official site: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/12811668/characters-of-warcraft-updated-2-12-2014
ArPharazonV: *nods* It was brought up on the forum for my WoW group too; and we have plans to go through the Challenge Modes on saturdays from now on, let's see how far we get.
Eonwe Valar: Third is that they've added New Player guides for the Elwynn Forest area, 1-5 and 5-10: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/12855769/new-player-guide-human-starting-zone-elwynn-forest-1-5 -2-15-2014 and http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/12855773/new-player-guide-human-starting-zone-elwynn-forest-5-1 0-2-16-2014
Eonwe Valar: And aye about Challenge Modes. I'd like to see if we have members interested in trying to get them, but I'm going to need to see about my schedule first.
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news?
ArPharazonV: Well
ArPharazonV: to continue with WoW first, I did another Celestial Tournament victory, ironing out a few more line-ups for the latter fights so I'll have to restart the tournament less often, make everything a bit more predictable :-)
ArPharazonV: otherwise still continuing a bit of archeology, though not very successfully so far
ArPharazonV: outside of WoW, I'll say that the Cookie Clicker browsergame I've mentioned before got a new Valentine's update, with a bunch of newer and higher level stuff, so if you've not poked it for a while, feel free to take a look.
ArPharazonV: Otherwise, not much to say that I can think of.
ArPharazonV: So yeah, I'm done.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news?

karakedi25: I spent several days in the Elder Scrolls Online beta.
karakedi25: And liked it better than I expected to, but still much prefer lotro.
Eonwe Valar: Good to hear it was enjoyable at least :}
karakedi25: Have any of you tried it?
Eonwe Valar: Not I.
ArPharazonV: Not me. Don't think I shall.
karakedi25: It took me quite a while to get used to the mechanics. I also had a lotro friend who was very helpful, as he knew the Skyrim series well.
ArPharazonV: Skyrim series?
karakedi25: Elder Scrolls series of single player games, of which Skyrim is the most recent.
ArPharazonV: Ah, like that.
ArPharazonV: Yeah, I've played Morrowind, and I think I've got Oblivion lying around.
ArPharazonV: Naming the series after Skyrim threw me off :-)
karakedi25: My error.
Eonwe Valar: If there's no other gaming news, on to Tolkien :}
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Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
Eonwe Valar: First, I put a small post to the RP. Not much, just a little something.
karakedi25: I saw it. I guess to progress further, we need Varda back.
Eonwe Valar: Well, for some of it, but since the group at the training grounds has already gone its way, we can continue as individuals our parts. My next part is probably going to skip straight to the evening of the following day.
karakedi25: What do you intend at that point?
Eonwe Valar: Unless my chronology is off, that's going to be the meeting between Auros and his friends mentioned in a previous post, some character development there, that kind of thing.
ArPharazonV: Evening of the following day, hm? Maybe I'll make a timeskip somewhere in between when my "scouts" return :-)
AriehnV: shame .. i was wanting Frali to join with them there after a bout with Gimli or them watching a bit or commenting .. but well guess i might as well have run him into the stables and look after his pony and maybe run into fainan
AriehnV: or trying to get out of the valley because he is bored and trying to return home
ArPharazonV: Feel free to insert what you want to insert, we can be wary with our timeskips :-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye, I was holding off my skip to the evening of the next day until I was sure whether or not there would be more story for other characters between the departure from the training grounds and then.
Eonwe Valar: Trying to keep the story *mostly* chronological :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other comments on the RP?
AriehnV: i ll try to post tomorrow when my mind is a bit more awake ^^
Eonwe Valar: OK :}
karakedi25: Not sure about Meren. She's probably still poking around Imladris and talking to experts.
Eonwe Valar: Fainan would probably be speaking to one of the border scouts the next morning, but Varda gets to write that, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: *border guards.
ArPharazonV: Between my and Fainan's findings we should probably discuss beforehand how the scouting's going to work out, what's going on up north.
ArPharazonV: You know, what the results are.
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
Eonwe Valar: Speaking of glowing valier... :}
AriehnV: oh spiak of the .. er just that :-D
karakedi25: Aiya
ArPharazonV: If my reports say there's nothing up there and the other reports say an army of Orcs is coming to besiege Rivendell, something went wrong ;-)
AriehnV: aiya :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya Varda!
Eonwe Valar: Heya Varda :} We were just discussing the RP. My next post is going to take us to the evening of the day after the training grounds seen.
Eonwe Valar: I posted this week, assuming you and Phar weren't intentionally having Calion and Fainan pretend Auros wasn't there and walk away :}
VardaValar1: Not intentional. Thought Fainan spoke to Auros?
VardaValar1: Checking
ArPharazonV: I think I was under the impression that Auros was already gone and it was just Fainan when I walked up to her.
Eonwe Valar: After Malril politely made his departure, Auros was still there, Calion and Fainan just proceeded as if he wasn't hehe.
VardaValar1: Aye. looks as if we assumed Auros went when Malril did. A definite mistake.
VardaValar1: Good thing we can go back and edit.
VardaValar1: ok, how do we want to fix it?
VardaValar1: Part of the not speaking was thinking Auros was gonetoo, I think
Eonwe Valar: Well, I just posted mine assuming you two knew I was there, then responded to Calion's comments, acknowledged your departures, and ended the post.
Eonwe Valar: *knew Auros was there
ArPharazonV: Hmm, yes. My lines don't work that well when Auros is standing right there.
ArPharazonV: Maybe I said them softly in Sindarin and hoped Auros would not catch on?
VardaValar1: aye, throws it all off
VardaValar1: For one thing, we now still have a Noldo present not ignoring us.
Eonwe Valar: I would say that would work Phar, but Sindarin was the common elven tongue of the time, so we were probably already speaking it.
Eonwe Valar: Well, the common tongue for the elves we're dealing with.
ArPharazonV: Mirkwood dialect?
ArPharazonV: Silvan, perhaps?
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya!\
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
Eonwe Valar: Heya Menel :}
Eonwe Valar: We were discussing the RP :}
ArPharazonV: "Hey, Auros, look over there!" And then proceeding to whisper to Fainan in the Silvan tongue and hoping Auros doesn't overhear.
Eonwe Valar: Hmm.
AriehnV: aiya Menel :-)
Eonwe Valar: It's not too much of a stretch to think the peoples of Mirkwood and Lorien would retain their Silvan language along with Sindarin.
Menelvagor Valar: Not that Estarion would be near to overhear, but how much would the Silvan tongue differ from the old days before the trek from Cuivienen to Aman?
ArPharazonV: Especially since Fainan and I are actually Silvan, I think.
AriehnV: right guys .. i ll have to call it , just to sleepy and trying to win a gold medal in the yawning olympics :-)
Eonwe Valar: To answer that question, Menel, we start to get into the HoME area.
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien :}
AriehnV: nn i ll read up when its put on the forum
AriehnV: Namarie for now :-)
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien did discuss in... vol 12 I think? ... the differences in the languages of several groups of elves.
ArPharazonV: Namarie Arien!
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie!
VardaValar1: oh, quick news membership
VardaValar1: Faramir's birthday is today. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Happy Birthday to him :}
Menelvagor Valar: Congrats Faramir!
ArPharazonV: Congrats to him!
VardaValar1: Aiya Menel :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Though I suppose in his native timeframe it's congrats yesterday :-P
VardaValar1: today-Arizona
Eonwe Valar: Quenya and Sindarin would've been more similar than say, Quenya and Avarin, because Quenya and Sindarin would've diverged from eachother at a later period.
VardaValar1: Never heard back from the Faramir in Turkey
Menelvagor Valar: Oh... doh... I was thinking of Fladrif. My apologies.
VardaValar1: Hi to Fladrif wherever you are. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Oh, on a bit of non-related news, next week, or the week after I will be coming back to WoW, it will be on a different server though, so I may not meet directly with Valarites.
Menelvagor Valar: New Zealand last we knew, right? :-)
ArPharazonV: Cross-server is possible. EU or US?
ArPharazonV: I think so, yes. Not sure.
Menelvagor Valar: EU. A friend of mine introduced me to a new Guild she was in contact with and I've had a blast with them during the 10-day mists trial.
VardaValar1: If US, you could make a character with us or use one of your old ones, if character number is not an issue?
VardaValar1: ah ok.
ArPharazonV: What server?
ArPharazonV: Might even have a low alt there.
Menelvagor Valar: Lightbringer I believe. Horde side.
Menelvagor Valar: US I would have gone straight back to Lothar.
ArPharazonV: Lightbringer.. yes. I have an alt there. I think I made a lvl 1 human there (Pharazon) when Arien mentioned going there at some point? Never played though, sitting in the Goldshire inn doing absolutely nothing.
Menelvagor Valar: I think Arien is more invested elsewhere, and I am on Horde side there :-P

VardaValar1: The Mirkwoodites did feel as if they had been dropped like a hot potato by Auros. If he hung around, then that would get their attention in a good way.

ArPharazonV: Myes, not sure what my point was going to be, it's not like I'd have joined you there even if I was horde. Or you alliance.

Eonwe Valar: Hmm, was flipping through HoME, pardon, looks like it might be vol 11 that I was thinking of, though vol 12 does discuss the Shibboleth of Fëanor.
karakedi25: happ birthday
Eonwe Valar: Btw, I think at one point we were trying to remember where it mentioned Celeborn as a kinsman of Thingol: Looks like it's LotR Appendix B, within a few paragraphs at the beginning of the section on the Second Age.
VardaValar1: ok, Fainan does say she's willing to wait until the scouts have rested, but then is told they might not speak with her.
Menelvagor Valar: So it seems.
Eonwe Valar: Based on "Quendi and Eldar" of vol 11, the section on the Nandor, the differences in language between Sindarin and "Nandorin" (which I use for expediency, not as an official language name) were already great in the First Age when those Nandor who came into Beleriand finally arrived.
Menelvagor Valar: I would surmise that the greatest difference would lie within the new things the Sindarin would have named since their departure from Cuivienen then.
karakedi25: More than that, as languages drift apart when not in contact
Eonwe Valar: Well, there's changes in accent, pronunciation, morphology, etc. to be considered, happening over thousands of years.
Menelvagor Valar: So, in essence, Estarion would, dependant on their contact with the men from the east who have had contact with the west speak only bas westron, and at best a basic version of Sindarin.
karakedi25: exactly
Menelvagor Valar: bas = bad.
Menelvagor Valar: I never considered that when I entered the RP actually :-P
Eonwe Valar: Well, Estarion seems to communicate fine for our purposes, so we can assume we can communicate well enough in Westron.
Menelvagor Valar: Though technically speaking, it is possible to learn a language from mere observation, though it is hard, and under the circumstances maybe nigh on impossible.
karakedi25: and may have picked up more Sindarin during his travels
ArPharazonV: It's magic!
Eonwe Valar: An Istar did it? :}
karakedi25: I'd think he'd have picked up a fair amount from his travels with our group
VardaValar1: ok, edited the post so Fainan says bye to Auros.
Menelvagor Valar: Well, considering that Estarion was sent to learn more of the West, it might be assumed that he's mingled with Westerners and with an aptitude in languages (as far not discussed as so in RP) could have picked up on Westron that way.
Menelvagor Valar: It is a bit far fetched, but there is basis for it in modern science.
VardaValar1: True. Estarion might have been sent partly because he's good with the languages needed for scouting, info collecting.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye.
Menelvagor Valar: And any mistakes he might have made along the way with the party might have been assumed to have been because he's Avari and therefore overlooked, seeming to be that he's communicating just fine.
ArPharazonV: So the reason Estarion was picked was... his social and communicative skills?
VardaValar1: We do need a post showing what Estarion is doing while in Riv, maybe ghosting around to see what the place is like.
ArPharazonV: And yet we never see him!
VardaValar1: Estarion would also need high solo survival skills.
Menelvagor Valar: Though it could be a good basis for Estarion's absence in Imladris, to learn more of the Elves after Cuivienen as well as his own desire to learn more about the evolving of the languages.
Eonwe Valar: If memory serves (and granted it may be fuzzy on this particularly tidbit) wasn't there supposed to be an Avarin connection to the mannish languages anyway?
Menelvagor Valar: Which is easily explained as his training as a scout.
Menelvagor Valar: Might be, but Westron is quite a bit different from Eastron or Southron.
VardaValar1: The Avar would be the first ones that Men met as they fled towards the West away from Morgoth's control.
ArPharazonV: I don't appear to see your edit, Varda?
VardaValar1: The humans learned from elves, so that would probably be from the Avar/
VardaValar1: heh, needed to hit Save Changes. Thanks!
ArPharazonV: And yes, Westron also has Elven and Adunaic influences.
Eonwe Valar: How old was Estarion again?
VardaValar1: That suggests the Avari might have had Westron influence on their language from that activity.
Eonwe Valar: Westron itself as I recall was supposed to have spread pretty far in use.
VardaValar1: Wasn't Westron used as the Common tongue?
karakedi25: it's not impossible by any means that the two languages could have mutual influence
karakedi25: at least in the area where Avarin was spoken
Menelvagor Valar: Not that old, fairly young as I recall, but nore sure exactly. I'll try and look it up though.
VardaValar1: That history would still affect Estarion, young or old.
ArPharazonV: Hmm, I'm editing my post, but it still doesn't mesh well with Eonwe's.
VardaValar1: The Avari would most likely have crossed with Silvans, especially on the border?
karakedi25: one would think so
karakedi25: unless they were very reclusive
Eonwe Valar: Avari might've met with Nandor, but the Teleri in general (which would include the Nandor and would be related to a portion of the Avari) didn't seem to gather into large settlements too often. Part of Thingol's problem was that his people were so spread out.
Menelvagor Valar: As I recall, small groups of Elves split off from the journey here and there, but it wasn't until the Silvans of Greenwood that a large portion decided to stay in generally one place. It was a long journey before that though.
Eonwe Valar: I don't recall that any Eldar actually forsook the march until the Nandor broke off, though many Teleri were apparently dragging their feet :}
VardaValar1: saw good settling places
Menelvagor Valar: Well, that could be it :-)
ArPharazonV: "Where have you been these past 3 thousand years?" "Oh, we were resting near the stream back there."
Eonwe Valar: By the way the Sil tells it, the Teleri didn't cross over the Misty Mountains until the Vanyar and Noldor had already made it over the Blue Mountains, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: Alot of uncounted time there.
Eonwe Valar: Or at least some uncounted time, hehe. Doesn't say how long they took to cross Eriador for either group.
Menelvagor Valar: But when he had traversed this dark wood for several days, he could not come to the conclusion that this "Mirkwood" was really all that evil. It was a name he had picked up from several Elves a few days back at the start of the forest.
Menelvagor Valar: It's part of my first post in the RP. At the very least it shows Estarion knows a bit of Sindarin, as I would assume most Elves would speak in their native tongues when no other races are nearby.
VardaValar1: Sindarin is like Common for elves.
Menelvagor Valar: No mention of age yet though... just "He remembered his own youth in his own forests"
ArPharazonV: So his youth is over anyway, that makes him.. at least 50? :-)
Menelvagor Valar: At least. Readin on :-)
Eonwe Valar: For those interested, here's a quick diagram of the Elf groups as they seem to be: http://valarguild.org/eonwe/Pictures/Elves.png
Eonwe Valar: Feel free to ask for clarification/correction if one of these seems wrong to you, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: I suppose I could've included there "Sindar = Eglath"
Eonwe Valar: Other than that, I think everything's there.
Menelvagor Valar: Nothing seems wrong, but Laiquendi is a term I have forgotten or have never known.
Eonwe Valar: Laiquendi are the Green-Elves, the Nandor who came over the Ered Luin into Beleriand and made their homes in what came to be called Lindon.
Menelvagor Valar: Ah.
Menelvagor Valar: There they refined their ring-smithing skills, right?
ArPharazonV: That was Ossiriand, right?
VardaValar1: Eregion
VardaValar1: Hollin
Eonwe Valar: The Laiquendi came to live in Ossiriand, yes.
VardaValar1: Laiquendi + Beren
VardaValar1: 1-hand typing
Eonwe Valar: Eregion/Hollin is related to the Gwaith-i-Mirdain.
Menelvagor Valar: Derping here. Lindon is the Grey Havens.
ArPharazonV: Right :-)
Eonwe Valar: Ok, did we establish what needed establishing here? :}
VardaValar1: Fainan is going to see Elrond
VardaValar1: Eonwe, will you be playing Elrond?
Eonwe Valar: I have so far. If we need Elrond again so soon I don't mind reprising the role.
VardaValar1: Good deal, not talking to myself. ^^
Menelvagor Valar: Oh, and I just read the first few pages of Estarion's introduction, but could not find a mention of age, just the "of his youth" comment. I'd have to reread a lot more to get to that point, but I prefer going through the last parts and re-entering the story first :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Eonwe his been talking from his alter-ego self to his alter-ego self from time to time :-P
VardaValar1: Glad to have you back
Menelvagor Valar: Didn't seem to upset him, but then again, as a herald, I suppose one is used to hearing one's own voice reverberating :-)
Eonwe Valar: I planned to leave Fainan's discussions with the border guards to you, though :}
Menelvagor Valar: Thanks, though game night simply finished early tonight :-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe Menel :}
VardaValar1: I can, just like the interaction when possible
Menelvagor Valar: Interaction is more interesting than a monologue, I'll grant you that :-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye, interaction helps :}

Menelvagor Valar: At any rate, I'm going to watch me "An Unexpected Journey" while slightly dozing off and thinking of going to bed fairly early while failing miserably.
ArPharazonV: Spoiler: Eagles.
Menelvagor Valar: Spoiler, in part two, Gandalf meets Thorin in Bree in a not-so-chance encounter.
ArPharazonV: Ah, we're getting backstory?
Menelvagor Valar: Spoiler: In part 6 The Ring Bilbo finds gets melted down.
Menelvagor Valar: Spoiler: Darth Vader is Luke's father.
VardaValar1: O noes!
Menelvagor Valar: Oh wait, different movie :-P
ArPharazonV: Sauron: Frodo, I am your father!
VardaValar1: Better at boating than Drogo?
Menelvagor Valar: Son of Aragorn to Arwen: How am I supposed to call you? Mommie or great-X-auntie?
VardaValar1: Kissin' Cousin?
Menelvagor Valar: I guess that would be both acceptable and horribly wrong.
VardaValar1: Very distant cousin
Menelvagor Valar: At least it beats some random Mountain Troll trolling Arwen by saying "Don't you recognize me? I am your mother!" Thereby entirely negating the troll answer of these times: "your mother is a troll!"
Eonwe Valar: OK, I think we're are in Aftermeeting by now, so I'm going to bang the gavel and make it official :}
Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel*
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Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting:
ArPharazonV: Son of an ogre.
VardaValar1: *jumps*
Eonwe Valar: OK, here's an interesting tidbit in my re-reading of "Quendi and Eldar," which one can take as he or she will:
Eonwe Valar: It related to the use of the Sindarin equivalent to Quenya's "Moriquendi,"...
Eonwe Valar: "By the Sindar (my note: of the First Age) anyone dwelling outside Beleriand, or entering their realm from outside, was called a Morben. The first people of this kind to be met were the Nandor. who entered East Beleriand over the passes of the Mountains before the return of Morgoth; soon after his return came the first invasions of his Orcs from the North.
Eonwe Valar: Somewhat later the Sindar became aware of Avari, who had crept in small and secret groups into Beleriand from the South." (italics as they are in the text)
ArPharazonV: Sneaky.
Menelvagor Valar: That intro is epic! :-)
Eonwe Valar: To summarize some parts to keep this short, it also mentions the Men of the Three Houses, as well as other Men. "All these were at first acquaintance called Moerbin. Nut when the Nandor were recognized as kinsfolk of Lindarin origin and speech (as was still recognizable), they were received into the class of Celbin.... which became practically equivalent to 'peoples in alliance in the War against Morgoth'."
Eonwe Valar: "The Avari thus remained the chief examples of Moerbin. Any individual Avar who joined with or was admitted among the Sindar (it rarely happened) became a Calben; but the Avari in general remained secretive, hostile to the Eldar, and untrustworthy; and they dwelt in hidden places in the deeper woods, or in caves."
ArPharazonV: Eol.
Eonwe Valar: "But that no special reference to Elves was intended by the Sindarin word is shown by the fact that Moerbin was at once applied to the new bands of Men (Easterlings) that appeared before the Batle of the Nirnaeth. If in Sindarin an Avar, as distinct from other kinds of Morben, was intended, he was called Mornedhel."
Eonwe Valar: I cited that specifically for its mention of the Avari coming into Beleriand during the First Age.
VardaValar1: Good info there. I wonder about the Avari at the time of the War of the Ring.
Eonwe Valar: Also some interesting insight into general Elvihs attitudes of certain groups there.
VardaValar1: True
Eonwe Valar: *Elvish
VardaValar1: Moerbin sounds like any outsider, Celbin is an ally vs Morgoth.
Eonwe Valar: That's what it essentially became, aye.
VardaValar1: So we might refer to Estarion as a Celbin?
Eonwe Valar: The Sindar were of one Elvish group, and didn't need to differentiate themselves from another group or speaking people, for some long.
ArPharazonV: or a Mornedhel :-)
Eonwe Valar: In Sindarin, maybe. The use of the terms *may* still have application in Third Age Middle-Earth.
VardaValar1: Elrond might naturally think of the terms?
VardaValar1: Mornedhel sounds less friendly
Eonwe Valar: Well, it seems to be equivalent enough to Avari.
Eonwe Valar: As far as Auros is concerned you all are Umanyar and Avari anyway :}
VardaValar1: So our party might use the friendly term, or at least maybe Meren would since she's learned.
VardaValar1: Uman looks a lot like Human :-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe.
Eonwe Valar: U- is a negation: Umanyar < Uamanyar = Eldar not of Aman
karakedi25: What is considered the more polite/friendly term?
ArPharazonV: Celbin, probably.
ArPharazonV: Anyway, it's late. Saving and sending transcript.
karakedi25: Celbin looks like a plural. Might the singular be Celben, on analogy with Morben?
VardaValar1: Thanks!
VardaValar1: I may be stuck here a long time
karakedi25: :-(
VardaValar1: and am trying to find ways to use all the programs for the News etc
ArPharazonV: Eventually you'll have half a dozen transcript to put up :-)
Eonwe Valar: Celbin, from the Sindarin perspective, would be any ally in the fight against Morgoth (or Sauron, in our case) so it's not specific enough to identify Estarion.
ArPharazonV: *transcripts
ArPharazonV: Mellon!
ArPharazonV: Well, that's more Noldorin.
VardaValar1: They will be put up!
Eonwe Valar: Calben is the singular, Celbin the plural. Morben/Moerbin for outsiders.
ArPharazonV (8:29:21 PM): saved
Indis (8:29:55 PM): That makes more sense
ArPharazonV (8:30:36 PM): So Estarion and I can call each other Cal!
Varda Valar (8:30:43 PM): hehe
Eonwe Valar (8:30:48 PM): On :"Well, that's more Noldorin." ---> Hmm?
ArPharazonV (8:31:31 PM): Mellon was the word for "friend" on the gate from Eregion to Moria, I believe. But Eregion was a Noldorin settlement so it would've been in the Noldorin language.
ArPharazonV (8:31:36 PM): or.. Quenya, I suppose.
ArPharazonV (8:32:45 PM): So we who speak Sindarin would not, in fact, use it to refer to Estarion.
Eonwe Valar (8:32:46 PM): Well, probably still Sindarin since it was the common Elvish tongue.
Varda Valar (8:32:48 PM): We probably get some Quenya in class, like Latin, and might pick up a few goodies like that. So aye, you could call each other Cal. :-)
Varda Valar (8:33:17 PM): Ok, so we wouldn't use the words normally in our Mirkwood group.
Eonwe Valar (8:33:22 PM): Users of Quenta had been shunned because of the kinslaying, so no guarantee it would coome back as a widespread language.
Eonwe Valar (8:33:46 PM): *Quenta = Quenya
Varda Valar (8:33:56 PM): Silvans and Avari are probably closer to each other than Avari with other groups. Natural that he would join up with a small group of them for his scouting.
ArPharazonV (8:34:24 PM): transcript sent
ArPharazonV (8:34:43 PM): I hope someone else will be saving from here too :)
Varda Valar (8:36:01 PM): If there's more, Eonwe, please email it to me? I'll clean it up.
ArPharazonV (8:36:31 PM): Namarie, all!
Eonwe Valar (8:36:47 PM): Sure.
Eonwe Valar (8:36:51 PM): Sleep well Phar :}
Varda Valar (8:37:01 PM): Novaer :-)
ArPharazonV (ArPharazonV) has left the room.
Eonwe Valar (8:45:21 PM): On : "So we who speak Sindarin would not, in fact, use it to refer to Estarion." Well, if he's an unfamiliar Avar, no, it would not apply to him. *Maybe* on a personal level Calben/Morben would be used, but I doubt he would be considered Calben by Mirkwood, for example, at this stage.
Eonwe Valar (8:46:35 PM): *If one of the Mirkwood characters considers that he has done enough to be called "Calben"
Varda Valar (8:48:07 PM): So far he's been our companion until Rivendell, fought alongside us.
Eonwe Valar (8:49:30 PM): in a strict use of the Quenya terms, Moriquendi would be any Elf who had not reached Aman, as my diagram linked earlier indicates, though according to the section I'm quoting (a page earlier discussing Quenya) the Noldor modified their use in the daily sense so that Moriquendi was anyone not Noldor or Sindar.
Eonwe Valar (8:50:29 PM): Still referring strictly to Elves, however.
Indis (8:52:28 PM): quendi would definitely refer to elves and no other
Eonwe Valar (8:52:40 PM): Aye.
Eonwe Valar (8:54:23 PM): The word "quen" itself, as it appears in other words i.e. arquen - "a noble" would be used for any other Incarnate, but Quendi referred specifically to the Elvish people as a whole.
Eonwe Valar (8:55:58 PM): Or at least it developed that connotation in Aman when they had entered other peoples and needed to distinguish themselves from other peoples, but when they were the *only* people they knew of, it didn't need that connotation for obvious reasons.
Eonwe Valar (8:57:08 PM): *encountered other peoples
Indis (9:00:39 PM): quendi were the ones who speak with voices, dating from Cuivienen
Eonwe Valar (9:01:03 PM): Aye.
Indis (9:01:14 PM): hence elves
Eonwe Valar (9:01:38 PM): What we call Elves, aye "|
Eonwe Valar (9:01:39 PM): :}
Indis (9:01:53 PM): indeed
Eonwe Valar (9:06:18 PM): Quoting from what I'm perusing: "As has been seen, the word was made when the Elves as yet knew no other 'people' than themselves. The sense ' the Elvihs people, as a whole', or in the sg. 'an Elf and not some other similar creature', developed first in Aman, where the ELves lived among or in contact with Valar and Maiar. During the Exile when the Noldor became re-associated with their Elvish kin, the Sindar, but met other non-Elvish people, such as Orcs, Dwarves, and Men, it became an even more useful term."
Eonwe Valar (9:07:07 PM): Any typos are mine.
Eonwe Valar (9:09:47 PM): On Telerin equivalents: "Also the Teleri felt themselves to be a separate people, as compared with the Vanyar and Noldor, whom taken together they outnumberd. This sentiment began before the Separation, and increased on the March and in Beleriand. In consequence they did not feel strongly the need for a general word embracing all Elves, until they came in contact with other non-Elvish Incarnates."
Eonwe Valar (9:11:53 PM): "Pendi, the dialectal equivalent of Q Quendi, survived only as a learned word of the historians, used with reference to ancient days before the Separation;.... they did not regard their language as a 'dialect' of Quenya, but called it Lindarin or Lindalambe. Quenya they called Goldorin or Goldolambe; for they had few contacts with the Vanyar."
Eonwe Valar (9:12:30 PM): my note: all of which apparently resulted in bringing blonde hair to the Teleri :}
Eonwe Valar (9:13:07 PM): How else would we have got blonde-haired non-Vanyar? :}
Indis (karakedi25) has left the room.
Eonwe Valar (9:16:25 PM): "The old compounds in Telerin form Calapendi and Moripendi survived in historical use; but since the Teleri in Aman remained more conscious of their kinship with the Elves left in Beleriand, while Calapendi was used, as Kalaquendi in Quenya, to refer only to the Elves of Aman, Moripendi was not applied to the Elves of Telerin origin who had not reached Aman."
Eonwe Valar (9:18:11 PM): Hmm, am I still here? I see some discrepancies in who the channel list says is here and who the chat says is here...
Varda Valar (9:19:27 PM): aye
Varda Valar (9:19:44 PM): be sure to save
Varda Valar (9:20:03 PM): afk
Eonwe Valar (9:20:08 PM): I'm showing Indis is here and Varda is not, but the chat seems to indicate Indis left and Varda did not leave, heh.
Eonwe Valar (9:20:22 PM): Just saved again to be safe :}
Varda Valar (9:20:27 PM): yay hehe
Eonwe Valar (9:27:26 PM): Another interesting tidbit:
Eonwe Valar (9:29:52 PM): In section C of "Quendi and Eldar" : "The first Avari that the Eldar met again in Beleriand seem to have claimed to be Tatyar (from which Noldor come), who acknowledged their kinship with the Exiles, though there is no record of their using the name Noldo in any recognizable Avarin form. They were actually unfriendly to the Noldor, and jealous of their more exalted kin, whom they accused of arrogance."
Eonwe Valar (9:30:05 PM): Hmm, a Noldo accused of arrogance? Unheard of! :}
Eonwe Valar (9:31:25 PM): Also two amusing pieces that are more amusing when put back-to-back:
Eonwe Valar (9:32:28 PM): "The Noldor indeed asserted that most of the 'Teleri' were at heart Avari, and that only the Eglain (Eglath in the Sil) really regretted being left in Beleriand."
Eonwe Valar (9:33:25 PM): "Indeed the Teleri on their side asserted that most of the Noldor in AMan itself were in heart Avari, and returned to Middle-earth when they discovered their mistake; they needed room to quarrel in."
Varda Valar (9:34:57 PM): hehe
Eonwe Valar (9:38:01 PM): "Teleri meant 'those at the end of the line, the hindmost', and was evidently a nickname arising during the March, when the Teleri, the least eager to depart, often lagged far behind."
Eonwe Valar (9:39:07 PM): "(Vanyar) was probably given to the First Clan by the Noldor. They accepted it, but continued to call themselves most often by their old numerical name Minyar." More gold here to be had in this section, no pun intended :}
Eonwe Valar (9:41:24 PM): Alot of this stuff is great stuff I glossed over or pased up in my general Elves article, but would include in an article about the specific groups.
Eonwe Valar (9:43:38 PM): "(Noldor) was probably older than Vanyar, and may have been amde before the March. It was fiven to the Second Clan by the others. It was accepted, and was used as their regular and proper name by all the Eldarin members of the clan throughout their later history.
Eonwe Valar (9:43:39 PM): "
Eonwe Valar (9:43:46 PM): amde = made
Eonwe Valar (9:44:34 PM): "The name meant 'the Wise', that is those who have great knoweldge and understanding. The Noldor indeed early showed the greatest talents of all the Elves for both intellectual pursuits and for technical skills."

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