Valar Guild

November 3, 2013 Sunday Meeting

(and into the chat marathon)
5pm EST (UTC - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

Back to News
Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (6)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, EonweValar, VardaValar1 (presiding)
    Fladrifv, Gimli-(V)/jetwest, Ioreth (LizMarr) (After-meeting)

Meeting begins
    Daylight Savings Time ended in the Eastern time zone, which is Valar standard time.
    Games Site updated
    Diablo 3
    Hobbit movie banners
    Chat topic: What kind of "tech" do they use in the time of the LotR?


You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: How goes it?
ArPharazonV: Good, killed Paragons of the Klaxxi for the first time on normal about an hour ago.
ArPharazonV: Just one to go!
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
VardaValar1: Go go Phar!
VardaValar1: Fangorn waves hi :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya Fangorn!
ArPharazonV: Well, they're keeping Garrosh until tuesday, when I'm not here. So, bleh. But I'll get him one day.
Eonwe Valar: You know, it's not a dealbreaker for me, but I can see why some people would want something similar to the Experience Disabler option to disable their ability to be flagged for PvP.
VardaValar1: We were trying to rescue kobolds from giant spiders, disturbed a humongous centipede, oops.
Eonwe Valar: It's very annoying to end up having the tab-target or even auto-target choose a flagged player as my target when my current target dies.
ArPharazonV: Could work, Eonwe. But you'd have to disable it in places like enemy capitals etc.
VardaValar1: Toggle?

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Give Enemy faction guards in the cities the same teleport out ability the faction guards in Dalaran do.
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: Sounds like a good idea, Eonwe
VardaValar1: Fangorn and I will be away most of next week, leaving Sauron and Bilbo to hold the fort.
ArPharazonV: So you wouldn't be able to attack faction bosses with that enabled?
Eonwe Valar: Will continue thought on PvP in aftermeeting :}
ArPharazonV: Anyway, continue with news :-)

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: News update on Eonwe's Games Site. :-)

VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: Any non-WoW, non-LotRO gaming this past week?
ArPharazonV: More flashgaming, more GoTing, more cookieclicking too: a halloween update was added for that, with all sorts of spooky cookies. Quite fun.
ArPharazonV: All the flashgames with badge of the days have been Halloween-related too. Quite a spooky week.
ArPharazonV: Oh, and I did some more Rayman.
ArPharazonV: And that's it from me!
VardaValar1: SWTOR: group of Sauron, Bilbo, and Varda on the Empire side working together. Bilbo and Sauron duoing a good bit. Gimli is also gaming on Ebon Hawk at a different time of day mostly.
VardaValar1: and thanks, Phar. : )
VardaValar1: Any other?
VardaValar1: WoW:
VardaValar1: backing up
VardaValar1: Diablo 3 has two expansion previews out, according to the Games Site
VardaValar1: One for the Mystic, and one for historical Westmarch.

VardaValar1: WoW:
VardaValar1: We seem to need a way to not accidentally go into pvp, and for guards to be able to bug out at need?
VardaValar1: Any WoW news?
Eonwe Valar: We got a new guild achievement this past week: "That's alot of Quest Text".
VardaValar1: ohh, that's right. That's on the Alliance side.
Eonwe Valar: Darkmoon Faire this week.
ArPharazonV: How many quests? 10k?
Eonwe Valar: 50k quests
ArPharazonV: Ah, right. And Day of the Dead ended today as well, for news.
ArPharazonV: They made the pet permanent this year, so I hope you all remembered to get one :-)
Eonwe Valar: Arg
Eonwe Valar: No I didn't.
VardaValar1: Nope :-(
ArPharazonV: So many people are going to read this transcript and go "Arrrgh, I thought it was the same as previous years."
VardaValar1: Did get to see Elwing on both Alliance and Horde, and Eowyn on Alliance. : )
ArPharazonV: Which is the same response I got a few times in-game.
Eonwe Valar: Urion is lvl 90 as of this morning. He makes my fourth 90, my third 90 Paladin, and I've not leveled a Paladin of all three specs to 90 as that spec. Holy was by far the most painful of the three.
VardaValar1: That should make us pay better attention watching for changes. : )
Eonwe Valar: I've not levelled = I've now levelled
VardaValar1: Congratulations!
ArPharazonV: You really like paladins, don't you?
VardaValar1: He's The Paladin. : )
Eonwe Valar: Paladins are my favorite class, yes, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: Ret by far is the most fun to me, but Prot is pretty solid too.

VardaValar1: LotRO:
VardaValar1: A number of our people are off in the beta, as it only needs a Facebook like this time.
VardaValar1: But some of us are still hanging around in the regular and have been doing some instancing, first times for some folks, and to unlock more instances.
VardaValar1: The 100% experience boost is still going.
VardaValar1: It's to help people hit the 85 cap before the upcoming cap increase.
VardaValar1: We're also deeding hard trying to reach 18, made extra tough as we're not sure which traits we'll most need. Deeding everything!
VardaValar1: Crafting leveling is also ongoing, couple of us working up the tough scholar profession, trying to get around the cool-down problems.
VardaValar1: Any other comments about LotRO?
VardaValar1: oh, Menel has been on LotRO. : )
ArPharazonV: Deed all the things, indeed?

VardaValar1: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: If we can, indeed.
VardaValar1: The Hobbit movie has new banner pictures available. These are on Facebook and can be looked at individually:
VardaValar1: 1830.160617097307237&type=3

VardaValar1: For a chat question, one that we don't hear much about is what kind of "tech" do they use in the time of the LotR?
ArPharazonV: Well, they've got stone architecture and metalworking, for a start. The biggest industrializing seemed to be focused around Saruman and Sauron.
VardaValar1: The kind of tech we'd be most familiar would be the industrial style for Sauron and Saruman. Aye. : )
ArPharazonV: No electricity, no steam I think...
Eonwe Valar: I would imagine Minas Tirith would have running water, maybe the Shire too for the wealthier families.
ArPharazonV: Would they use steam?
VardaValar1: Tea would be a familiar use of steam, so they might consider using it for other things at some time.
Eonwe Valar: I think if anyone had that level of technology we would've seen it.
VardaValar1: They use mills.
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien : )
AriehnV: Aiya all :-)
VardaValar1: The question to us is what sort of "tech" was in use at the time of the LotR?
ArPharazonV: I wonder when agriculture became a thing. The Elves didn't seem to take to it.
ArPharazonV: But the Shire's famed for it, and so are the entwives.
ArPharazonV: And yet... there is wine.
ArPharazonV: Which really is an agricultural thing.
ArPharazonV: Which the elves made use of :-)
Eonwe Valar: The Elves had agriculture. Mentioned and hinted at in HoME at least.
VardaValar1: The entwives taught a lot to men about agriculture, over in what became the Brown Lands.
Eonwe Valar: Given lembas was made from ingredients that were grown by the elves.
VardaValar1: The Mirkwood elves were involved in trade with humans, picking up good things of unusual make that way. It seems to have been a robust, regular trade.
VardaValar1: They all needed a fair level of tech to make swords and armor.
VardaValar1: Siege weapons were in use.
AriehnV: hmm wasnt there Vine from Dorthonion very famed amongs the elves?
AriehnV: wine even
Eonwe Valar: Dorwinion
AriehnV: Dorwinion it was hehe
VardaValar1: yes, they traded for it. Dorwinion was the area where it was grown
Eonwe Valar: If memory serves.
AriehnV: me and names ^^
VardaValar1: Mostly at the king's table, the Dorwinion. Quite strong, not all that common.
ArPharazonV: Well, to be fair, most of what we've seen of Elves is that they prefer to live in the woods. The agricultural places, like Dorwinion, were never visited.
ArPharazonV: Rivendell didn't seem very farm-friendly either, geographically speaking.
VardaValar1: We don't know how much agrigulture took place in Rivendell, but they would have had a lot of trade.
VardaValar1: They could well have grown grapes, small vegetable plots, orchards.
VardaValar1: Lothlorien seems to have been pretty isolated, yet they lived quite well. Did they trade with anyone?
Eonwe Valar: It would've been hard to maintain a sedentary lifestyle without some agriculture.
ArPharazonV: They were located on a river. They could have had dealings with Beornings.
VardaValar1: The Mirkwood elves appear to have done a fair amount of hunting and probably gathering. They would have been especially hurt by damage to their forest.
Eonwe Valar: Given how long Elves live, and how long they had lived in those areas, if they relied solely on hunting and gathering, the area probably would've been hunted and gathered out long before the end of the Third Age.
VardaValar1: The Beornings were right against Mirkwood too, for trade.
AriehnV: and the Mirkwood elves maybe .. they had relatives living there as far as i know
AriehnV: and they would trade with Dale too
VardaValar1: If one uses care, one can continue harvesting in a forest. It would be quite seasonal.
VardaValar1: Acorns make flour too. Probably nut trees, tubers.
VardaValar1: Dale men had tech enough to make elaborate toys, and had access to magic to improve those toys. I wonder who did the magic? Humans or elves or *gasp* dwarves?
ArPharazonV: Depends on what you consider magic.
ArPharazonV: Dwarves could craft amazing things.
VardaValar1: The descriptions of the toys were that some had magic, but it didn't say what kind so we don't really know.
AriehnV: a bit alchemy with a bit bang sparks and fire look pretty magical too ^^
VardaValar1: Blacksmiths in medieval times were believed to be magical, but allowed to do it for the good of the community.
VardaValar1: There were far-seeing stones: the palantiri.
VardaValar1: Galadriel had her mirror.
Eonwe Valar: Are we citing "magic" or counting those as "tech"?
VardaValar1: Elven womens' hair was very good for bowstrings.
VardaValar1: We were just saying we weren't sure where the line was drawn. Good question.
ArPharazonV: In a way, exploiting magic is a form of technology.
VardaValar1: The architecture of Gondor would be a form of tech, architecture having been mentioned earlier.
ArPharazonV: And any sufficiently advanced magic can be counted as technology, as much as the way around ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Well, what some would call "magic" the Elves would call "art". Tolkien would describe magic in a different way.
VardaValar1: And let's not forget that the books are fantasy, so why wouldn't they have magic?
ArPharazonV: Aye, Varda, when I mentioned architecture, Gondor came to mind.
VardaValar1: Galadriel didn't like her art being lumped in with what Sauron did.
VardaValar1: The towns and homes of the Hobbits were comfortable. I agree that they had some sort of plumbing, if only pump wells.
ArPharazonV: No mention of outhouses. I can see Gondor and the Shire having plumbing; not sure about Rohan.
VardaValar1: Window glass seems to have been available, although it might have been a bit green and wavy, as we get no details.
VardaValar1: Leatherwork, textiles
VardaValar1: They had actual bathtubs. Did they carry water to them in buckets?
VardaValar1: They could have heated water in pots, had hot water that way.
ArPharazonV: Should be in the Conspiracy chapter. But I do recall copper tubing.
VardaValar1: Copper tubing - good for stills and for house plumbing.
ArPharazonV: Hang on, fetched the book.
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, the house at Crickhollow in Buckland did not seem to have indoor plumbing at least.
Eonwe Valar: Merry tells the group that there are "three tubs and a copper full of boiling water."
ArPharazonV: "three tubs, and a copper full of boiling water"
ArPharazonV: I knew I remember copper.
ArPharazonV: Even if it's tubs instead of tubes.
ArPharazonV: *remembered
ArPharazonV: Brandy Hall without plumbing would've been a mess to clean out.
VardaValar1: Good point. The warrens and all the hobbit holes would benefit by good plumbing, maybe pumps after rain.
VardaValar1: A copper full of boiling water... Copper kettle?
VardaValar1: That's where we might need to ask one of our folks who live in the UK if it's jargon.
VardaValar1: So maybe they pumped well water, and boiled hot water in pots?
Eonwe Valar: Seems to be the case.
ArPharazonV: Well, if Arien's here...
VardaValar1: The rangers would have known a lot. They apparently moved between towns and camps. The camps might have been well set up with tech not commonly known, from their days in Arnor.
ArPharazonV: Portable toilets.
AriehnV: hmm anatomical practicalities :-P but yes there are guidelines for out door toilets even today
AriehnV: i forgot what it was but i read on a website for campers what to do in the wild
Eonwe Valar: I suppose silverware and mirrors could count as technology, hehe.
AriehnV: dig hole use moss and grass and leaves .. you know stuff like that
AriehnV: and then cover up
Eonwe Valar: And keep it away from the camp.
ArPharazonV: Does that count as technology?
AriehnV: aye
AriehnV: *else the famous *thunderboard* :-P
AriehnV: guess they could manage something like that
AriehnV: unfortunatly not many novels give us details about things like that ;-)
ArPharazonV: I fail to see why that is unfortunate :-)
Eonwe Valar: Some blanks we can fill in for ourselves without the help of the novel, heh.
AriehnV: but let me think the romans definitly had a plumbing system
AriehnV: i ve seen that myself at various digsites
AriehnV: and quite a clever one for that
AriehnV: they were a military people but also artists, architecst i, poets, sculptors and politicians
ArPharazonV: But that technology was lost in the dark ages, as was much other.
AriehnV: like the Elves and Gondors
AriehnV: and folk from Gondor
ArPharazonV: Easier to compare that to, say, Numenor, whose technology would've given a boost to Arnor and Gondor but not quite all taken over.
AriehnV: so i think .. but it is speculation of course . if the romans could , The Elves and Edain could too
ArPharazonV: So if my island capital may have had plumbing, it doesn't mean it'd be copied to Gondor!
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: A fair bit of learning went from Numenor to Middle-earth with the Faithful.
VardaValar1: Their ships were already ready to bug out, so they had time to consider what they needed to take.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: Maybe a few copper tubes and fittings. ;-)
ArPharazonV: Hehe, perhaps. A plumbing schematic.
VardaValar1: The elves used to visit Numenor. Some cross-pollination of knowledge had to have taken place then.
VardaValar1: I need to leave, being pulled in several different directions, but will happily scroll back.
VardaValar1: Shall we move to After-meeting?
Eonwe Valar: I think the chat has died down enough, aye.
VardaValar1: *thunk*

VardaValar1: After-meeting:
VardaValar1: A lot of gems were made as well.
ArPharazonV: Jewelcrafting! Well, that's nothing special, they've got it in WoW.
VardaValar1: Did the elves in Valinor just mine and work them?
VardaValar1: Did they make some with carborundum, using the processes for that? They could have learned from Aule.
VardaValar1: Wow jewelcrafting. :-)
VardaValar1: They have it in LotRO too. : )
ArPharazonV: What they did to some gems, probably involved their making as well. The Silmarils and Palantiri come to mind.
VardaValar1: Agreed.
ArPharazonV: Silmarilli?
VardaValar1: :-)
VardaValar1: Feanor was best at it, but others created jewelry too.
VardaValar1: The Teleri were quite fond of pearls, perhaps had some aquaculture to have had so many available.
VardaValar1: Ok, there should be quite a few more things, if you happen to think of them. : )
VardaValar1: *flies away*
Eonwe Valar: Flipping through Letters of Tolkien seeing if anything is said on the level of technology used by diferent societies.
Eonwe Valar: Interesting commentary re "magic" earlier in the discussion in Letter 155.

AriehnV: Namarie for now guildies
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
AriehnV: by the way before i forget it and it gets still into the scipt .. i will be away next weekend from 8th to eleventh so i ll be back on monday afternoon/evebubg
AriehnV: errr evening
ArPharazonV: Allright, have fun with whatever you're doing :-)
AriehnV: LARP weekend incoming with my new character and travelling down by train
ArPharazonV: Oh, great, I'm sure having fun won't be a problem.
AriehnV: hehe aye :-D I am looking forward to it since i had to miss in August
ArPharazonV: I hope it's not too cold now.
AriehnV: its okay I was in NOvember last year
AriehnV: it was my second weekend then .. it is my fourth now hehe
ArPharazonV: It's almost tradition already!
AriehnV: its cooler but not as bad as one would think , these costumes are not that thin and if its cold thermals are always an option
ArPharazonV: Ah, good.
AriehnV: I am sure we will meet in WoW before somewhere knocking some mobs around :-)
ArPharazonV: Could be!
AriehnV: Namarie for now :-D
AriehnV has left the room.

Eonwe Valar: To answer Phars question at the beginning: "So you wouldn't be able to attack faction bosses with that enabled?" I'd say it'd need to be set such that attacking anything that would get you flagged would be impossible, and by the same logic anything that could flag you would not automatically attack you.
ArPharazonV: Sounds good.
Eonwe Valar: They'd need to make it so it's a feature only available on normal realms.
ArPharazonV: Of course. Wouldn't do much good on a pvp realm.
Eonwe Valar: Guards in all faction locations would need to be able to teleport out anyone of the enemy faction.
Eonwe Valar: So even if you did disable PvP functionality, trying to run through an enemy base would be inadvisable.
ArPharazonV: But they shouldn't be able to if you don't have PvP disabled, though.
ArPharazonV: Otherwise it'll make city invasions or even those old fishing achievements rather difficult.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, just like there's a faction check in Dalaran, there'd be a faction check *and* a "non-combatant" check for the teleport.
ArPharazonV: Right.
Eonwe Valar: Might take a bit more sophistication for achievements/honor to assure you're not just leeching from a group though.
Eonwe Valar: In theory, the teleport out would ensure you're not near enough to get credit, I suppose.
Eonwe Valar: That wouldn't help leeching in world PvP though. Of course, Disabling the PvP flag would also mean checking the source for a PvP flag before it would allow a heal on an ally as well.
ArPharazonV: Makes sense.
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, a series of macros could probably be arranged with one's attacks/heals to not go through if the target is flagged, assuming we can detect the PvP flag on characters like I *think* we can. Might be possible to do via addon as well.
Eonwe Valar: Wouldn't be perfect, but it'd be something.
ArPharazonV: Or just a mention in the game.
ArPharazonV: You try to heal someone, and it says that's not allowed.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: Something like if (flagged(target) != flagged(self)) print "Can't do that" else cast(spell);
Eonwe Valar: Rought pseudo code.
Eonwe Valar: Any spell cast would have to be run through it, so may introduce some input lag.

LizMarr has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Ioreth :}
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
LizMarr: aiya
ArPharazonV: Well, I've gotta get to sleep.
ArPharazonV: Saving and sending.
ArPharazonV: Transcript, that is.
ArPharazon-V: saved
Ioreth: I got here too late.... oh well, it was a nice dinner
EonweValar: Sleep well Phar :}
EonweValar: Good to hear you had a good dinner Ioreth :}
ArPharazon-V: and sent!
ArPharazon-V: Namarie!
ArPharazon-V: And thanks :)
ArPharazon-V (ArPharazonV) has left the room.
Ioreth (LizMarr) has left the room.
fladrifv has been invited.

Fladrifv has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Fladrif!
Fladrifv: Aiya
Fladrifv: Ent stomping middle earth
VardaValar1: The place to be!
Fladrifv: I just arrived so not much to report as of today im planning to update my cave with pictures of this beautifull land so everyone can enjoy the beaty of middle earth
VardaValar1: Huzzah!
VardaValar1: You seem to have internet again. : )
VardaValar1: So you're all set up in New Zealand now?
Fladrifv: almost some usefull utilities are still missing like a car
VardaValar1: ouch
Fladrifv: Im a reasonably modent ent
VardaValar1: Makes one much more adaptable. :-)
Fladrifv: im close to wellington where the famous rider scene was shot for lotr
VardaValar1: ohh
VardaValar1: Get to tour any yet? Bus tours maybe?
VardaValar1: Here you are, barely getting moved in and I ask that, heh.
Fladrifv: :)
Fladrifv: I made some hikes around town
Fladrifv: and sea/ river
Fladrifv: bush starts litterly behind my accomodation
VardaValar1: wow
Fladrifv: all in walk distance
VardaValar1: Ent strides
Fladrifv: an exploring fladrif shouldnt that be an contradictimus interminus?
VardaValar1: hmmm - maybe. : )
VardaValar1: But you might get tired of the view from just one hill after a few centuries, or feel like the rowans are no longer in danger.
EonweValar: Heya Fladrif :} has been invited. has entered the room.
 VardaValar1: Aiya Gimli :-) hi if any of yall play swtor, i would like to add yall to my friends list
VardaValar1: Bilbo's playing right now :-) light?
VardaValar1: I'll go look
VardaValar1: dark hmm i wonder if i can still add him to my friends list on light side
VardaValar1: I don't think so. :-)
VardaValar1: But you can pop onto dark side and find him
VardaValar1: Nastehyando haha i type that in google, and it pulls him right up
VardaValar1: :-) Sogeki'Hei is my character name
VardaValar1: Webcutter in Quenya
VardaValar1: You put in an apostrophe. The horror. :-) :-P
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: I'll let you type your name to him.
VardaValar1: Meeting transcript is now online
VardaValar1: click News, go to Sunday and click the Meeting Transcript. May need to reload if you've been on recently.
EonweValar (Eonwe Valar) has left the room.
EonweValar (Eonwe Valar) has entered the room.
EonweValar: I confirm that the meeting minutes are working :}
EonweValar: I guess with only a matter of days between now and the next LotRO expansion, I should get more bounders tokens together to either spend on something or get the next level of the achievement,
EonweValar: Re: the Tolkien Topic - "Tech in Middle-Earth" : riding by a windmill in LotRO made me think of the Sandyman's mill as well as the portrayal of Isengard in the movie with the spiked water-wheel. The mill is likely driven by water-power, since as I recall it's next to a river.
EonweValar: I owe LotR a reread soon, hehe. if this is any tech, dont forget about the catapults :-P
EonweValar: Well, tech from the books.
EonweValar: Did either side use catapults in the books? I forget. I remember the  battering ram Grond. Would count as tech. the Mordor War Catapults
EonweValar: Siege of Minas Tirith? Yea
EonweValar: I remember the flinging of the heads over the wall.
EonweValar: Yep, there were. Double-checked the book to make sure that was there and not just in the movie.
VardaValar1: In the book, I remember telling of the mark of the lidless eye on the heads being literal, but the heads let friends and relatives know for sure about the fate of their loved ones. An unintended kindness. A reminder of Eru.
EonweValar: That's a different way to see it. Hadn't considered that angle.
VardaValar1: Little things like that pop up all over. Easier to see when you start looking for them.
VardaValar1: The first wave of horror can blind the reader to them. Also another good tech, was the use of explosives to blast the walls of Helm's Deep at the Battle of the Hornburg
EonweValar: Aye. well im heading to bed, hopefully work will be abundant tomorrow night has left the room.
VardaValar1: Good night