Valar Guild

May 19, 2013 Sunday Meeting

5pm EDT (UTC - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (4)
    Arien-(Valar)/AriehnV, ArPharazonV, EonweValar (presiding), Indis-(V)/ karakedi25

Meeting begins
    Varda and family out of state.
    WoW patch 5.3 in the upcoming week.
    LotRO Update 11 came out this past week
       Strike Force Heroes
       Strike Force Heroes sequel
       Skills Idle
    Diablo 3 patch, anniversary
    NeverWinter: Dungeons and Dragons
    Trivia questions

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
ArPharazonV: Aiya! Sorry, was fighting Animus
ArPharazonV: Here now :-)
Eonwe Valar: WB :}
Eonwe Valar: Well, it's just you and me, and those reading the transcript when it goes up, so I guess we should begin :}

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
ArPharazonV: Gwaihir and Gilraen invited, then?
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: Menelvagor as well.
Eonwe Valar: Varda and all are out of town visiting Eowyn.
Eonwe Valar: Any other Membership news you know of, Phar?
ArPharazonV: Nay.
Eonwe Valar: OK.

Eonwe Valar: Web:
Eonwe Valar: Link on the News page: Lord of the Rings medley with violin played and sung by Lindsey Sterling. Video suggested by Eowyn-(V).

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: Word has it patch 5.3 will be launching this week.
ArPharazonV: Oh yes. Faster than I expected.
ArPharazonV: Back to the barrens.
Eonwe Valar: I've barely got to enjoy 5.2. Been too busy, heh.
ArPharazonV: Heh.
ArPharazonV: 5.2 was all about dailies on the island, and pet battling for me. And both are just about finished, for the most part. So I'm looking forward to something new, though it doesn't seem all too time-consuming this time.
Eonwe Valar: I got through the island stuff, was ready not to do that anymore, but haven't so much done raiding and world bosses to death yet.
ArPharazonV: Well there are no new raids, so you'll have another shot during the next patch ;-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: And the heroic skirmishes. Only 3 people needed for that :}
ArPharazonV: Heh, yes. Probably not bothering much with that myself.
ArPharazonV: I'll mostly focus on the barrens storyline.
Eonwe Valar: I doubt I'll have time for them, or rather that I'll be on when others will be on.

Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: Update 11 came out this past week.
Eonwe Valar: For patch notes:
Eonwe Valar: Plenty more links to specific stuff on the News page, if those interest you :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news?

ArPharazonV: Oh, more flashgaming. Few fun games, though mostly the same old racing or rpg or something. Was introduced to the sequel to an action/platform/shooting game I liked, Strike Force Heroes, so that was fun.
ArPharazonV: And the Skills Idle game I mentioned last week now contains fishing ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Cool :}
ArPharazonV: Want links for anything?
Eonwe Valar: Sure, can't hurt.
ArPharazonV: And the sequel
ArPharazonV: Oh, and the "feed me" series where you play a piranha to eat people, which is always fun, got a fifth installment
ArPharazonV: feed us, sorry
ArPharazonV: is one site that has it
ArPharazonV: That's it for me!
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}

Eonwe Valar: Also in gaming, Diablo 3 patch 1.08a came out this week.
Eonwe Valar: For patch notes:
Eonwe Valar: In addition, Elatan and Ancalagon have both mentioned on the forum that they're playing the open beta of Neverwinter: Dungeons and Dragons.
ArPharazonV: Going back to D3, it's the one year anniversary this week.
ArPharazonV: An experience and magicfinding buff all week, I think. Logged in for a bit to see if there was a feat too, but didn't find anything.
Eonwe Valar: Check out the post on the forum ( and all you Valar Guild Members who play it, feel free to post there and let us know.
Eonwe Valar: Ah yes. Thanks for mentioning that, Phar.

AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: aiya there :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
AriehnV: sorry for the late arrival but i was working today until ten
Eonwe Valar: Heya Arien :}
AriehnV: i forgot to tell ye
Eonwe Valar: We're just wrapping up gaming.
AriehnV: cool :-)
AriehnV: hope the packaging is colorful and entertaining
Eonwe Valar: Some blue, some red, a little gold, hehe.
karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: aiya
Eonwe Valar: We're in the "any other gaming" section of gaming, so if you have any other gaming, feel free to mention it.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Indis :}
ArPharazonV: Aiya Indis!
karakedi25: has anyone reported on LotRO?
Eonwe Valar: yes.
ArPharazonV: On the update.
karakedi25: OK--any questions (I've been in it)
Eonwe Valar: Doesn't seem so, but thanks :}
karakedi25: ok
Eonwe Valar: Doesn't seem there's any other gaming news either before we move into Tolkien, so....

Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
Eonwe Valar: OK, does anyone have a Tolkien topic?
AriehnV: not really i am being distracted by an attention seeking kitty &&
ArPharazonV: Can't say that I do.
Eonwe Valar: Quick round of trivia then?
AriehnV: aye sure
ArPharazonV: Sure!
karakedi25: ok
Eonwe Valar: Shall we start at the top? Got a question already Arien? :}
AriehnV: if this beastie lets me type ;-)
AriehnV: a creature is mentioned proverbally or not to have very good eyesight by night being owned by a female ruler .. Who was the female and what was the creature?
karakedi25: beruthiel and her cats
AriehnV: indeed :-D not very clever questioned since i am being pestered by one but it was somehow on my mind :-D
Eonwe Valar: hehe
karakedi25: I figured that was why, but cats normally have excellent eyesight at night
AriehnV: next one up or Indis who answered right first?
ArPharazonV: Guess it's me.
karakedi25: next one up
ArPharazonV: Hmm... name all the races that participated in the Battle of Five Armies.
ArPharazonV: Feel free to name them separately if that's faster :-)
Eonwe Valar: Silvan Elves, Dwarves, Men, Eagles, Orcs (with Wargs)
AriehnV: Hobbit one, even if he was knocked out at the start , dwarves (of Erebor and Blue Moountains) Elves < Eagles , orcs and wargs
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, aye, and Hobbits.
ArPharazonV: Both of you are missing one, but have covered for each other, so that's fine :-)
AriehnV: one Maia
ArPharazonV: Oh, very good!
ArPharazonV: Even I was missing that one.
ArPharazonV: I assume Beorn counts among Men?
Eonwe Valar: Tricky one there.
Eonwe Valar: Pretty sure he does, but he has some super-human qualities.
ArPharazonV: So yes. Hobbits, Elves, Eagle, Orcs (goblins?), wargs, dwarves, men and a shapeshifter.
AriehnV: which raises the question .. what or who was he ? idle one there alas but gives nice room for speculation
Eonwe Valar: It'd be interesting to see how Tolkien would've classified him, if he had decided to, to fit him into the larger cosmology once The Hobbit began to be integrated into his legendarium.
Eonwe Valar: But then, he may have just left him like Bombadil.
ArPharazonV: Could have Maia ancestry. Somehow having bear ancestry seems odd, but Zeus has seduced women in stranger forms.
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien's Ainur don't seem to go for that, at least on the good side. I can't speak for what Morgoth's followers would do.
AriehnV: indeed .. one of those could have of course spawned a halfblood some how and the mother would have managed to hide it from morgoths brood
Eonwe Valar: "Go for that" referring to Zeus' actions. Would a Maia fall in love with a human? Interesting thought, but one full of many complications.
Eonwe Valar: I'm not sure that having a Maia ancestor would be enough to allow "skin-changing" as casually as Beorn seems to manage it though. Even Luthien needed the corpses of the creatures she was disguising herself and Beren as.
ArPharazonV: An alternative would be that Beorn *is* a Maia; we know he has human descendants, but hybrids are not unheard of. Though a Maia and a human would be quite exceptional.
Eonwe Valar: Exceptional enough perhaps to have been mentioned.
Eonwe Valar: Beorn being a Maia would have some tough questions as well.
Eonwe Valar: OK, time for me to ask a question :}
Eonwe Valar: What are the fates of the palantiri?
ArPharazonV: ..y'know, that actually crossed my mind as a question a few days ago.
ArPharazonV: Let's see... 2 are in a lake in the north
ArPharazonV: 1 is in a tower looking west, I think that one's still there?
ArPharazonV: One ended up in barad-dur and is probably somewhere among the wreckage.
AriehnV: Aragorn kept the stone of Isengard
AriehnV: not sure how that ended up in Sarumans hand
ArPharazonV: One was kept in Minas Tirith and was tainted by the image of Denethor burning.
karakedi25: didn't he also keep the stone of Denethor, though it wasn't much use, or did he give it to Faramir?
ArPharazonV: And... one more sank with the ruin of Osgiliath.
Eonwe Valar: The stone of Denethor probably stayed right where it was for some time after the events.
ArPharazonV: Isengard was once a Gondorian fortress, Arien, so it would've been there since before Saruman moved in.
Eonwe Valar: Or at least until Denethor could be given a proper burial.

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Am I back now?
Eonwe Valar: WB Phar.
ArPharazonV: Allright, last thing I saw was Eonwe mentioning a proper burial.
ArPharazonV: Can someone copy what was said for transcript purposes?
ArPharazonV: I still here?
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: Almost thought I was gone for a moment there...
Eonwe Valar: For the record: Indis 5:02 pm of course the stone of Amon Sul was lost with the last king of Arnor in Forochel AriehnV 5:03 pm the sone of Fornost fell into the hands of the enemy or did it stay in the tower? stone even Indis 5:03 pm wasn't it sunk? oh nmArPharazonV (ArPharazonV) has left the room. 5:05 pm
ArPharazonV: Allright, I hope that covers it :-)
ArPharazonV: Nothing was said since I left the room for you?
AriehnV: wasn't it sunk? oh nmArPharazonV (ArPharazonV) has left the room. 11:05 pm Eonwe Valar 11:05 pm Guess we list Phar. We're missing the fates of a palantir or two. Indis 11:06 pm One remains in the Tower Hills
ArPharazonV: Did we? I thought I mentioned all of them.
ArPharazonV: 3 in the north, 4 in the south.
AriehnV: two in the lake .. one in the Tower Hills, one in Barad Dur, one in Minas Ithil , one Isengard and one Minas Tirith
AriehnV: and one Osgiliath
ArPharazonV: Yes. That's 7.
Eonwe Valar: That would be 8...
ArPharazonV: And there's an 8th stone in the west, on Eressea, I believe.
ArPharazonV: In contact with the one in the Tower Hills.
Eonwe Valar: OK, I missed mention of the one from Minas Ithil. I see it now.
karakedi25: yes, that's true, but I'm not sure it ever made it to Middle Earth
Eonwe Valar: There's 7 in Middle-Earth, and it looks like we covered them all.
Eonwe Valar: Indis' turn :}
karakedi25: How many different writing scripts do we know of Arda, and what were they?
ArPharazonV: Tengwar, Cirth are the Elvish ones; Tengwar was more a fluid script and Cirth was a rune system, I believe.
karakedi25: and...
ArPharazonV: There's a dwarven script with (what I assume to represent) the Westron alphabet, but I'm not sure if it had a name.
Eonwe Valar: Tengwar, Cirthas Daeron, and there's Angerthas Moria, which was adapted from Cirth by the Dwarves.
ArPharazonV: It was used in The Hobbit.
karakedi25: yes, but there was one more
karakedi25: don't limit yourselves to the Great Lands
ArPharazonV: Was there another in Aman?
karakedi25: yes
karakedi25: precursor to the Tengwar, extra points if you know who invented it
ArPharazonV: Sounds like something Feanor created.
karakedi25: He got the idea from someone else
Eonwe Valar: Rumil if memory serves, but Tengwar and Cirth (along with those two major variants) are all I recall.
Eonwe Valar: *as far as names go.
karakedi25: Rumil was the inventor; what was his writing system called?
karakedi25: and how was it written?
Eonwe Valar: Was this actually mentioned in Sil/Hobbit/LotR?
karakedi25: Might be in the appendices
karakedi25: It was called Sarati, and it was written vertically, and, if I remember right, from right to left
Eonwe Valar: I'm not sure that was in the appendicies, but if you can find a page reference for me so I can have it at hand next time, I'd appreciate it :}
Eonwe Valar: *next time the topic of letters and writing comes up.
karakedi25: my error, it was left to right
karakedi25: samples here:
ArPharazonV: I wonder what the source of all this is. It looks official, in any case, but I don't remember it any books. Might be some later published essay or something.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, I can't seem to find a reference to a primary source.
karakedi25: AAm — “The Annals of Aman” in Morgoth’s Ring: The History of Middle-earth vol. 10
ArPharazonV: Ah, that works.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks, that helps :}
karakedi25: Rúmil of Valinor created the first writing system of Arda in the Valian Year 1179 [AAm]. On one occasion, Tolkien refers to this script as “The Tengwar of Rúmil” [AppE], but the real name of the writing system was Sarati (each letter being a sarat) [QE].
karakedi25: QE — “Quendi and Eldar” in The War of the Jewels: The History of Middle-earth vol. 11
karakedi25: So not called Sarati in the appendices, but there, and more info in HoME
karakedi25: This site will have more than you ever wanted to know about Sarati :-P
karakedi25: Feanor, possessed of a giant-sized ego, as far as I know never acknowledged the predecessor system to Tengwar.
ArPharazonV: He wouldn't, really.
karakedi25: are you all stunned into silence?
Eonwe Valar: I'm looking in Morgoth's Ring for the source text :}
AriehnV: looking at that manbjorkmans site and he uses a lot of original sources
AriehnV: he has a list of sources he uses i like that :-)
karakedi25: yes, very helpful
ArPharazonV: Still nice to get it confirmed from the actual source :-)
Eonwe Valar: If you copy/pasted the sources above, he has them flipped: "Quendi and Eldar" is in Morgoth's Ring, and "Annals of Aman" is in War of the Jewels.
karakedi25: I copied them from the article
ArPharazonV: hehe
Eonwe Valar: From Quendi and Eldar:
AriehnV: looks very complicated
AriehnV: but nice
karakedi25: yes, it looks like a neat system, and clearly used many of the principles that Feanor 'borrowed' later
Eonwe Valar: "Before he turned to other matters Fëanor completed his alphabetic system, and here also he introduced a change in terms that was afterwards followed. He called the written representation of a spoken tengwe (according to his definition) a tengwa. A 'letter' or any individual significant mark had previously been called a sarat, from sar 'score, incise > 'write'.
karakedi25: which of course implies that he knew about the Sarati
ArPharazonV: I assume he did, or he wouldn't have "borrowed" from it :-)
karakedi25: indeed
Eonwe Valar: The Fëanorian letters were always called tengwar in Quenya, though sarati remained the name for the Rumilian letters. Since, however, in the mode of spelling commonly used the full signs were consonantal, in ordinary non-technical use tengwar became equivalent to 'consonants', and the vowel-signs were called omatehtar.
Eonwe Valar: When the Fëanorian letters were brought to Beleriand and applied (first by the Noldor) to Sindarin, tengwa was rendered by its recognized Sindarin equivalent tew, pl. tiw. The letters of the native S alphabet were called certh, pl. cirth. The word in exhilic Quenya, certa, pl. certar was an accomodated loan from Sindarin; there was no such word in older Quenya. The Sindarin certh is probably from *kirte 'cutting', a verbal derivative of a type not used in Quenya, the form of which would in any case have been *kirte, if inherited."
Eonwe Valar: There's the whle paragraph, the last part really just for fun.
Eonwe Valar: *whole
karakedi25: afk
AriehnV: sorry folks for being a bit more silent today i am really sleepy
karakedi25: back
ArPharazonV: I just can't contribute much to language stuff :-)
AriehnV: Indis have the log in problems in Lotro been fixed generally? i still get an internal error on that
karakedi25: They are supposed to have been fixed.
karakedi25: There appear to be scattered problems; I suggest you get in touch with tech support
AriehnV: i mean i can log in to where the server list comes up but when i want to click play then i get the error
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, RE: flipped sources... nevermind, he has them right. I could've sworn I had MR opened when I was looking for "Annals of Aman", but apparently I didn't. My fault.
karakedi25: it would have been surprising in light of his otherwise exemplary schoarship
Eonwe Valar: We're all human, heh.
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, for those wishing to be about their business, I shall bang the gavel.
Eonwe Valar: *Bangs the gavel*

Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting:
karakedi25: I guess I'll call it a night here. Need to get dinner. Take care all.
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
AriehnV: Namarie Indis
karakedi25 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Indis, belatedly.
ArPharazonV: Saving and sending transcript, though if you send one in it'll be more complete :-)