Valar Guild

March 3, 2013 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (5)
    Arien-(Valar)/AriehnV, ArPharazonV, EonweValar, Ioreth-(V)/LizMarr, VardaValar1 (presiding)

Meeting begins
    Art by DeepGroover-(T)
    Mass Effect 3
    StarCraft 2 beta
    World of WarCraft (WoW)
    Lord of the Rings Online (LotRO)
    StarCraft 2: Heart of the Swarm new trailer
    In JRRT's books, he makes mention a number of times in often very strong plotlines concerning oaths. What such plotlines did he use, and what seemed to be his opinion about taking oaths?
    Time change next week, EST moves 1 hour forward.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Phar. :-) Still about 25 minutes.
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
ArPharazonV: Still, gives me some time to level up my elemental pet a bit :-)
VardaValar1: Go go!
VardaValar1: Time slipping up on us
ArPharazonV: Yep.
AriehnV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: But out of WoW now, so ready for meeting :-)
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien :-)
AriehnV: aiya there
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
LizMarr has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Ioreth :-)
LizMarr: Aiya
VardaValar1: I think that's everyone that could make it for the minute.

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: The sweep letter to all members has a draft made up, but we have some last minute news still in progres, so it hasn't gone out yet.
VardaValar1: Any membership news from the rest of you?
LizMarr: *shakes head*
VardaValar1: Aragorn and Thranduil had birthdays this past week, something I usually forget to mention. : ) I hope their days went well!

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: DeepGroover-(T) sent in a new model for the Tolkien Site, one that will be going to a show later this year.
VardaValar1: A life-sized head of a wolfman, Oliver Reed's werewolf actually:
VardaValar1: Last night he sent in the final mounted version, now updated in case you need to hit Refresh.
VardaValar1: I made a couple of indices for Vampires and for Wolfmen in the Tolkien Site, helping collect the images and few articles.
VardaValar1: We could use more articles on those subjects, as not a lot of people realize those beings were in the lore. : )
VardaValar1: Any further web news?
VardaValar1: I paused because AIM says Arien is entering text. : )
AriehnV: hehe sorry
VardaValar1: Pardon, it's not the greatest indicator!

VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: Any non-WoW, non-LotRO gaming this past week?
VardaValar1: Sauron is at a nearby table playing Mass Effect 3.
VardaValar1: StarCraft/BroodWar for a short by by Fangorn and Varda.
ArPharazonV: Ehh, bit of flashgaming, but nothing noteworthy.. but I will say that the SCII beta is closed now, and I hope those participating got their exclusive portraits in time :-)
LizMarr: Been playing Rift some. Strange game, keep finding what I think has been borrowed from WoW
VardaValar1: Good luck on the portraits!
VardaValar1: WoW also grabs from everything else, so whose is whose gets tricky. : )
ArPharazonV: (hint: pet battles come from Pokemon, not other way around)
LizMarr: This game is only just two years old, so I'm not surprised with the familiarity with others
VardaValar1: One hopes they choose the best elements fitting into their own lore for the new games.

VardaValar1: WoW:
VardaValar1: Go ahead, Eonwe.
Eonwe Valar: Darkmoon Faire is this week.
VardaValar1: ahh, must drop in for that.
Eonwe Valar: Make sure you get in your quests for 5 easy profession skill points, darmoon tickets for prizes, etc.
Eonwe Valar: *darkmoon
Eonwe Valar: That's it for me.
VardaValar1: Thank you, Eonwe. :-) Anyone else with WoW news?
AriehnV: patch has been delayed two weeks
ArPharazonV: 2 weeks? You sure? The round-up was this week.
AriehnV: so it will come out wednesday in a week .. seems they have to do some hotfixes before
AriehnV: and bug sorting
VardaValar1: Thanks.

VardaValar1: LotRO:
VardaValar1: Folks are trying to finish up deeding, Hytbold (mostly on alts), and high level instances or are running alts, trying to get in ahead of Update 10.
VardaValar1: We've heard that Fate is going to be an important trait then, so people are having to deed that one up on various characters.
VardaValar1: Any other comments on LotRO?
AriehnV: well any spare unyielding drakeeye donations welcome for Arriehn ^^
VardaValar1: Oh, crafting experience dropped to about half.
VardaValar1: Have you checked the kin chest for class items? It does seem to be getting use. : )
AriehnV: i have managed to finish the pre class quests of the grinding part but its down to that now
AriehnV: yeah i got some from there :-) but still have to get about 15 or so
VardaValar1: Whenever I have spares like that, they go to the kin chest. What is the actual name?
AriehnV: also some bat parts
VardaValar1: Sounds like Angmar fun.
LizMarr: I ended up buying 3/4
VardaValar1: Would that be the place you've been finding them?
AriehnV: yeah .. i wanted to grind with my burglar there but she got stuck in some Rohan quests and unintenntionelly got her to 77 hehe
VardaValar1: I meant Angmar rather than AH. : )
VardaValar1: Nice sort of oops. : )
VardaValar1: I can see about dropping into Angmar for a bit on a character or two.
AriehnV: so was playing around with the on notice quests and finally managed to make it tol knight of the wold
VardaValar1: Very good!
VardaValar1: That's not a typo, she really does mean Wold as an area.
ArPharazonV: ah :-)
ArPharazonV: I was wondering!
AriehnV: part of the Eastemnet

VardaValar1: In Ventrilo news, for those who want to help out Irmo paying for that server with a buck or two, he has a PayPal donation box on the Forum section (see the top link) on
LizMarr: well, if I can ever help let me know. all I have been doing is crafting (10 levels in about 5 hours until they cut it)
VardaValar1: We use that Ventrilo for a variety of Valarite games.
AriehnV: all right Iorethj
VardaValar1: Run into
VardaValar1: Angmar for a little while and kill bats, drakes, and drop the goodies into the kin chest or to Arien if she's online.
VardaValar1: You'll note a link back to Valar from Wolves of Valinor and some mention.
VardaValar1: Any other news, suggestions, comments?
VardaValar1: Tolkien:
ArPharazonV: A new Starcraft: Heart of the Swarm is out, if you want some late gaming news?
ArPharazonV: *trailer, sorry
VardaValar1: In JRRT's books, he makes mention a number of times in often very strong plotlines concerning oaths. What such plotlines did he use, and what seemed to be his opinion about taking oaths?
VardaValar1: Thanks Phar. Link if you have it handy?
VardaValar1: Nice : )
VardaValar1: Teen rating on the trailer
ArPharazonV: Oaths. Well, there were the Oathbreakers, who pledged an oath of loyalty to... Isildur, or Elendil, not sure. When they didn't come through on their oath, they were cursed to a few thousand years of undeath until a new king came to visit.
ArPharazonV: Well, it's the Zerg :-)
VardaValar1: Sounds like Mengsk overdid it and got Kerrigan back into the game. ouch
VardaValar1: Thanks Phar

[Topic repeat: In JRRT's books, he makes mention a number of times in often very strong plotlines concerning oaths. What such plotlines did he use, and what seemed to be his opinion about taking oaths?]
[ArPharazonV: Oaths. Well, there were the Oathbreakers, who pledged an oath of loyalty to... Isildur, or Elendil, not sure. When they didn't come through on their oath, they were cursed to a few thousand years of undeath until a new king came to visit.]
ArPharazonV: So yeah, just one example showing Tolkien taking his oaths very seriously. One of many, no doubt.
VardaValar1: And that new king was Aragorn. The villagers called him the King of the Dead as they rode wildly past.
VardaValar1: Good example.
VardaValar1: How about Feanor's?
ArPharazonV: Feanor and his sons took an oath to reclaim the Silmarils, the consistent following of which didn't turn out very well for the Elven war effort in Beleriand, and several kinslayings were the result.
ArPharazonV: What else.. Finrod's oath.
ArPharazonV: Oath of friendship to Barahir who'd saved his life, by token of a ring, which ultimately led him to sacrifice his own life for Beren in Sauron's tower.
VardaValar1: Ahh, right. The Ring of Barahir was the symbol of that oath, later worn by Aragorn.
VardaValar1: And that oath was why Finrod never married. He had a foreknowing that it would bring his death.
VardaValar1: One trusts he met his lady again in Valinor where the oath no longer was a problem.
ArPharazonV: Oath fulfilled, moving on.
ArPharazonV: Handy, such an afterlife.
VardaValar1: That returning to Valinor after the death of the body really helps mitigate a good bit of the great sorrow of the stories of the elves in Middle-earth.
ArPharazonV: Indeed. Some even returned afterwards. Death was just a long vacation.
VardaValar1: A time of reflection before re-embodying. Rarely they did not take a body again, like Feanor's mother.
VardaValar1: Even humans had a short stop-over for that. I wonder if that gave them a chance to meet elves they had known before moving on outside of Arda? Most would not want that, but some like Aragorn and even Arwen might avail themselves of such an opportunity.
VardaValar1: Feanor made his sons swear again at his death, so they were doubly oathbound.
Eonwe Valar: Well, the halls for Men and Elves were separate.
ArPharazonV: Maybe some of them dug a tunnel to the other one.
Eonwe Valar: I recall something from HoME about the fëa unbodied being rather solitary.
ArPharazonV: Sneaking over the wall.
VardaValar1: Yet would those few be allowed to meet if both the human and elf wished it? Or would it be something that would increase rather than decrease sorrow? Perhaps a chance to say goodbye that they didn't have before.
Eonwe Valar: I couldn't tell you where, except for somewhere is Morgoth's Ring or Peoples of Middle-Earth.
VardaValar1: When in the Halls of Mandos, they were mostly involved in introspection, working out what they had learned from their lives before moving on.
VardaValar1: That would be a solitary pusuit too.
VardaValar1: Better if unbodied fea were solitary only. A few tried to swipe a body, and that didn't end well.
VardaValar1: Maybe that was why they were solitary, doing something similar to what they would have done in the Halls of Mandos?
Eonwe Valar: A fëa who refused the summons to Mandos already showed a penchant for ignoring proper authority.
VardaValar1: Separation can be its own punishment.
VardaValar1: The refusal would doom them to a lonely existence, seems like.
ArPharazonV: "I didn't vote for you!"
VardaValar1: In the Fellowship, Gimli suggests taking an oath to stick together to take back the One Ring, to strengthen quaking hearth. How well did this go over? Should they have taken that oath?
VardaValar1: hehehe Phar
ArPharazonV: I think Elrond did not allow it? He did not want them to go any further than they dared or wanted.
VardaValar1: Right
ArPharazonV: They stuck together out of friendship and loyalty and wisdom, and were thus in the perfect situation to break apart when it was for the best.
VardaValar1: Rather than strengthen quaking heart, he suggested that the oath might break it.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: They would have been oathbound to apparently leave Merry and Pippin to the orcs rather than follow Frodo.
ArPharazonV: If there was an oath, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli could not have let Frodo and Sam go alone, and would have ended up abandoning Merry and Pippin to their deaths. Not that they were ultimately involved in their survival.
VardaValar1: They would have remained under the influence of the One Ring as it became stronger.
VardaValar1: True.
ArPharazonV: Merry and Pippin would have survived in much the same way, probably; though Rohan might have been worse off.
VardaValar1: Instead their attempt at rescue put them where they could give the most help to Frodo by luring the orcs out of their way, so they could reach Mount Doom.
ArPharazonV: Agreed.
AriehnV: i wonder if the ring would have any influence over Aragorn through the binding of the oath
AriehnV: like the oath of Feaonor with the silmaril
VardaValar1: Hwould have had to go to Mount Doom instead of Rohan and Gondor.
Eonwe Valar: Would the Ring try to work on Aragorn? No doubt. Would it succeed? I'd like to think not, that Aragorn knew what he wanted and that the Ring could never give it to him.
VardaValar1: The Ring would try to work on them all, aye, and been stronger as they neared Orodruin.
AriehnV: 11
VardaValar1: Gandalf had intended to go to Mount Doom too, not stop in to help in Rohan. Interesting how their plans were shifted.
ArPharazonV: Hmm, good point, Eonwe. In fact, those most likely tempted by the Ring were already shaken off with or without oath.
VardaValar1: It put them right in the big battles.
LizMarr: Look how strong the ring was on Bromir, would it had done that to Aragor eventually?
VardaValar1: Boromir wasn't even one of those originally picked for the Fellowship, which may have been why he was the one that succumbed.
ArPharazonV: What would the Ring have tried on Legolas?
VardaValar1: Perhaps the safety of Thranduiil, his people. Give him Mirkwood and Dol Guldur?
VardaValar1: As a starter.
VardaValar1: The Ring picks the weak point of what they want, then expands from there.
Eonwe Valar: Aragorn had already rejected the ring, as indicated by a conversation with Arwen on his deathbed, as I recall. Boromir started out knowing about the ring with the idea it was a good plan to use it against its creator.
VardaValar1: Sam saw how ridiculous it got. Give him his own big garden, then spread it over the world? And unable to put his own hands in it all?
ArPharazonV: Galadriel was offered, tempted and she ultimately refused. What does this say about Elven resistance to the Ring, or is she just a special case?
VardaValar1: Give a safe, happy haven for the elves without having to fade and go to Valinor? He was a young elf, not yet tired of living.
VardaValar1: Galadriel is a special case. :-) But she still says a lot about elvendom.
VardaValar1: Maybe offer forests that were once again protected by Ents and Entwives, where elves could roam.
VardaValar1: Gimli's dwarven people had a similar problem in that they were dying out. In their case it was a lack of potential wives. Not as bad as the ents' problem, but there's a touch of the same idea.
ArPharazonV: I wonder how much fanfiction is out there about Legolas claiming the Ring and becoming a new Dark Lord. There really is little to nothing about any efforts the Ring would've made to him, Gimli, Merry or Pippin.
ArPharazonV: In the actual works, I mean.
VardaValar1: Like JRRT said, the number one complaint by himself and fans was that the work was too short. : )
ArPharazonV: Hah. Perhaps the Ring tried to influence Gimli with promises of women.
VardaValar1: More characterization would have been very welcome.
ArPharazonV: Tall, fair-haired women, perhaps, after the visit to Lorien.
VardaValar1: A woman of his own, more women born for his people, more marriages. Aye.
VardaValar1: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Based on how the Rings of Power affected Dwarves in general, I think we can surmise the One would've tried to act on Gimli through greed.
VardaValar1: Galadriel may have spoiled Gimli for a real dwarven marriage.
VardaValar1: True for most dwarves, although Gimli seemed to have less greed problem than most, possibly one reason he was chosen to represent his race.
VardaValar1: Good point. Mountains of gold for Gimli, would make him attractive to the ladies too.
ArPharazonV: Eh. He was the son of one of the Thirteen. Nepotism might've been in play.
VardaValar1: Not with the Valar, unless they had it planned to come from them.
VardaValar1: Thorn's Company had more interaction with outsiders than most dwarves.
VardaValar1: *Thorin
VardaValar1: Gloin was actively visiting Rivendell with his son!
VardaValar1: Merry and Pippin were both hobbits with hereditary leadership positions. Perhaps they would have been offered greater roles starting with those positions?
ArPharazonV: Expand the Shire!
VardaValar1: (To Phar: I've run across fan fic with Legolas claiming the Ring, or becoming a minion of Sauron from being around the Ring. Not many though.) [Note: In our own Stories site, two by Jay of Lasgalen with Legolas tempted or fallen are: "Temptation", and "Dark Elf".]
VardaValar1: Or expand Buckland or Tookland. The Shire's such a stuffy place to both of them.
ArPharazonV: If you can conceive it, it's probable that there's fanfiction of it somewhere ;-)
Eonwe Valar: For good or ill.
ArPharazonV: Cut down the Old Forest, claim it for Buckland!
ArPharazonV: Take the Barrow Downs, drive out the spirits, and you suddenly get a whole bunch of readily hollowed out hills to put hobbit holes in.
VardaValar1: It would be interesting to see fanfic based on any one or (to that one's surprise) more of them being influenced by the Ring. Or fighting off just to see it take over someone else.
VardaValar1: heh, and gold in them thar hills.
VardaValar1: /duck
VardaValar1: But aye, holes ready made and full of treasure, just the other side of the Old Forest.
VardaValar1: Get rid of that bad influence, definitly look like a plus. Maybe have those wights *serve* them instead, for good of course. Yeah right.
ArPharazonV: Who knows? The Ring might make it look good :-)
VardaValar1: It definitely would! Aye.
VardaValar1: Maybe some here will be inspired to do some bits of fan fic. : )
VardaValar1: We've gone over most of the oaths, that they're serious and better not to be made.
ArPharazonV: Merry claims the Ring, takes power for his part of the Shire, and expands eastward. It might be interesting to write about.
VardaValar1: We've gone over how the Fellowship members might have been tempted.
VardaValar1: Aye, it could be. And how would the other Fellowship members, family react? Other regular characters? They don't live in a vacuum.
ArPharazonV: Though I can't see him getting away with it unless his mind is more powerful than we know.
VardaValar1: How did they walk off with the Ring even for a short time?
ArPharazonV: Claim the Ring in full? Take the loyalty of the Black Riders, perhaps?
ArPharazonV: Bring down Sauron?
ArPharazonV: You'll have to be very powerful for that, even with the Ring.
VardaValar1: Hey, Merry could be allowed to take the Ring, the nazgul pretend loyalty.
ArPharazonV: But for how long?
VardaValar1: Then when he's done all that can be done to wreck Sauron's enemies to take the Ring, he takes it back. Merry would no longer have protection.
VardaValar1: However long that takes. : )
VardaValar1: He could be a good lure too, if others went into hiding.
ArPharazonV: Good point.
VardaValar1: That could be scary stuff.
VardaValar1: The Ring has a part of Sauron in it, and therefore can truly belong to no one else. It lies and slips on and off fingers to get closer to Sauron.
VardaValar1: Genie wishes maybe. : )
VardaValar1: World peace? Sure, no other humans left now.
ArPharazonV: But was Galadriel not confident that if she took the Ring, she would be able to rule instead of Sauron?
VardaValar1: At the time, she imagined that to be so. But she was still only an elf, not a Maia like Sauron.
ArPharazonV: But you'd think she'd know better.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: She was the greatest of elves, once lived in Valinor same as Sauron. No puny little woods runner only.
Eonwe Valar: Some elves could rival some Maiar. Glorfindel/Ecthelion fought Balrogs.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: Maiar ran a long line of ability, from just barely a Maia to about as strong as a Vala. (Not the Aratar, but the Valar.)
ArPharazonV: So we have Maiar who can rival Valar. Elves who can rival Maiar. Humans who can rival Elves, no doubt.
ArPharazonV: It's truly one continuous spectrum of power :-)
VardaValar1: The story changed later so that Balrogs were much more powerful and there only seven. I wonder how those stories would have changed after that.
Eonwe Valar: Well, Elves had a nature similar to Ainur.
VardaValar1: Aye, Ar-Pharazon.
VardaValar1: The Ainur, the First-born, and the Second-born were all Children of Iluvatar. The Ainur looked on the other two groups as brothers of a sort.
ArPharazonV: All one big happy family.
VardaValar1: And aye, the elves were closer in nature to the Ainur, and had spent time with them, learing their ways and adding to the similarity.
VardaValar1: And good ol' Uncle Morgoth. And cousins.
VardaValar1: And those listening to the whisperings, often hearing nothing else.
ArPharazonV: Every family has its black sheep.
ArPharazonV: Or well, most.
VardaValar1: If they're lucky to be big enough, probably so!
LizMarr: dumb web has Maiar as a lesser Valar, and Valar as a greater (or good) Maiar and Maiar are Ainur and they are descended to Arda. How do you be descended to someone? I'm confused.
VardaValar1: Have to be careful of where on the web you're looking. : )
VardaValar1: Ainur include Maiar and Valar.
VardaValar1: They came out of the outside to the world of Arda, thus like descending from space.
Eonwe Valar: The came from outside Ea, which means they descended from somewhere outside of the universe :}
Eonwe Valar: Or multiverse, as the case may be. Outside of this level of reality.
ArPharazonV: They came from outside Ea and hung up some stars outside of Arda. I wonder how big Ea was at that time.
LizMarr: O.o This does say that Elrond is 1/16 Maia...
Eonwe Valar: Sounds about right.
VardaValar1: Arda is the planet Earth.
LizMarr: o.O
VardaValar1: Elrond does have some Maia in him, right. So does Aragorn.
ArPharazonV: So do I!
AriehnV: and i AM a Maia :-D , *outshines all *
VardaValar1: That comes from Melian, the Maia that married Elu Thingol.
Eonwe Valar: In... Morgoth's Ring I believe.. "The realm of Arda" is the entire solar system.
VardaValar1: Some Valar here. *cough*
VardaValar1: Interesting.
AriehnV: isnt Ea the entire solar system or is Ea the plain of existence?
ArPharazonV: Makes sense. The vessels of the moon and sun came from Arda and would have been considered part of Arda in any case.
ArPharazonV: So in the renewed universe, the solar system would probably be part of Arda.
Eonwe Valar: Ea is all of this level of reality.
LizMarr: It makes mention of Arien, Sauron, and Olorin
VardaValar1: Ea "behold". All that can be beheld.
VardaValar1: You could try looking at our website. : )
VardaValar1: Good idea to put in some articles explaining Arda and Ea.
AriehnV: oh that idea :-) i think some greek Philosopher said that our reality is cut into several layers of perception
AriehnV: forgot who that was
VardaValar1: And we have scientists talking about branes. : )
LizMarr: and wikipedia of all things
VardaValar1: heh, the guy that runs that started that used to come to our meetings.
VardaValar1: Tolkien Gateway
ArPharazonV: was that about humanity living in a cave and only seeing the world by the shadows the light makes on the wall, and not by what's really outside the cave, Arien?
VardaValar1: Yet when the description tells of what the Valar do in Arda, it seems to be about making the Earth, before it was round.
ArPharazonV: Well, before the cosmological revision, everything that was the solar system (and more) did come from Earth. The sun, the moon, the stars.
VardaValar1: That would explain it.
VardaValar1: The stars were outside Arda for the elves to look up to see for light though.
VardaValar1: or one could consider it in Arda as part of the higher airs.
VardaValar1: Shall we call it a night? : )
Eonwe Valar: BoLT had some pictures of the cosmology as a ship.
AriehnV: something like that Phar
VardaValar1: Aye, with vai as the water that the ship floated on.
AriehnV: or you know like an onion has nine layers of skin ^^
AriehnV: but still part of the same onion
ArPharazonV: The Earth has several layers, but they're all part of the same planet :-)
AriehnV: :-D
VardaValar1: It tells of layers of the airs, references like upper Ilmen.
AriehnV: aye i remember vaguely something like that
ArPharazonV: It also tells of doorways to the left and right of Arda, leading outside Ea.
VardaValar1: Speaking of ships, the stars were once described as sailing ships. Earendil's Vingilot went along with that earlier story.
VardaValar1: Aye. Morgoth was shoved outside the Door of Night.
LizMarr: is that a hint?
VardaValar1: And what about th eVoid?
ArPharazonV: So if Ea was indeed a lot bigger than Arda, it must've been really been crunched up and small at the part where Arda was situated, if its edges coincided with the edges of the world :-)
VardaValar1: No. Just continuing the conversation. That was one of the doors Phar mentioned.
Eonwe Valar: Or,.. the doors are connected to the edges of Ea in a spacial dimension not perceived by incarnates.
VardaValar1: Morgoth thought the Void was being neglected, was upset about that. Thought it might be the hiding place of the Secret Fire, which was actually part of Eru.
ArPharazonV: Hourglass-shaped perhaps.
VardaValar1: Aye Eonwe.
VardaValar1: But the Void apparently became a place of great works, a place full of stars I think. I"m foggy here.
VardaValar1: Eru had plans for it, not neglecting it.
VardaValar1: Morgoth was outside of Arda a long time, came back and coveted it. This was not when he was out the Door of Night, so was he in the Void then?
ArPharazonV: I thought the Void was outside Ea, since Ea was not created until after Morgoth had some exploring in the Void.
Eonwe Valar: The Void would be outside Ea.
VardaValar1: The Void was first, aye.
Eonwe Valar: The "Space" between planets would be Ekkaia.
ArPharazonV: So he would only have been in the Void after being pushed out the door.
VardaValar1: So Morgoth would have been exploring the part of Ea that was not where Arda was.
ArPharazonV: Yes, Arda.
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar.
ArPharazonV: ..Varda.
ArPharazonV: Typos are getting in if I'm calling you a planet.
Eonwe Valar: Ea was not created until after the Ainulindallë, when Eru said "Let these things be!" Before that, there was nothing beyond the Timeless Halls.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: I mean aye to what Eonwe said. : )
ArPharazonV: Nothing beyond the Timeless Halls?
ArPharazonV: What does that say about the Void?
ArPharazonV: Though technically void is nothing.
VardaValar1: There was nothing but Eru
VardaValar1: Then he made the Valar
VardaValar1: and the Valar had the Timeless Halls
VardaValar1: So would the Void be inside or outside the Timeless Halls?
VardaValar1: Morgoth traveled away from the rest of the Valar, spending time alone in the Void.
ArPharazonV: Depends on how you define void. If void is simply nothing, it could be outside the Timeless halls.
ArPharazonV: Which means that at the start, there's Eru and Void.
VardaValar1: Or Eru only
VardaValar1: If something is made in one spot, that suggests something is not made in another.
ArPharazonV: Unless Eru is of infinite size and shape, that can't be spatially conceived, anyway.
VardaValar1: No space, no time. only Eru
ArPharazonV: If there was no time but only Eru, there cannot have been a time when there was just Eru :-)
VardaValar1: Outside of space and time.
VardaValar1: No space, no time.
ArPharazonV: I feel like we're getting a bit philosophical here.
VardaValar1: Create a bubble of space-time.
VardaValar1: True, going outside the scope slightly. : )
ArPharazonV: A bubble usually has a medium outside the bubble.
Eonwe Valar: We're assuming that there's only a single temporal dimension, hehe.

VardaValar1: I'm calling After-meeting, as we're mvoving outside Tolkien's given info. : )
ArPharazonV: Fair enough :-)
VardaValar1: Arien has an interesting YouTube that seems to go along with this. : )
AriehnV: this discussion reminded me of a wonderful song .. epic and non tolkien aye
AriehnV: you might have heard it before .. or not but enjoy :-)
VardaValar1: New to me, thanks.
ArPharazonV: Not heard it either.
VardaValar1: Gathering in the harvest. Sudden thought of harvesting the elves for Valinor.
VardaValar1: Not what is meant here, just a thought.
ArPharazonV: Heh. Reminds me of the Death from the Discworld series. Who cares for the harvest, if not the reaper?
VardaValar1: heh
VardaValar1: I like Terry Pratchett's books too.
VardaValar1: By the way, I'm often in Ventrilo when on LotRO, alone or not. : )
LizMarr: I keep forgetting
LizMarr: be right back
LizMarr has left the room.
AriehnV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Guys, I meant to say earlier
VardaValar1: USA goes to Daylight Savings Time next Sunday.
ArPharazonV: Ah.
ArPharazonV: I'll check when ours does.
VardaValar1: That would be good to know.
ArPharazonV: according to
ArPharazonV: 3 weeks later
VardaValar1: Thank you.
VardaValar1: That's quite a difference.
ArPharazonV: Yus.
VardaValar1: heh, some states in the US refuse to use Daylight Savings Time.
ArPharazonV: Are you going back or forward an hour?
VardaValar1: If Texas ever goes that way, with Eonwe and myself both in Texas, should get interesting. But we'll stick with EST.
VardaValar1: Whatever the computer says. ;-)
VardaValar1: Does that site say?
ArPharazonV: Not that I can tell.
VardaValar1: checking. Forward 1 hour
ArPharazonV: Forward one hour. So a specific time will be an hour earlier.
ArPharazonV: So the meeting will start an hour earlier for me.
VardaValar1: It's on this computer's clock info when clicked.
VardaValar1: Might be a little easier on you? Except it cuts into WoW time. :-(
VardaValar1: People really busy at this time of day in the US. One reason we see fewer of them here.
ArPharazonV: So it does. But we often cut the raid a bit earlier anyway, since people tire, and I tend to spend my time finishing dailies or hunting pets after that. Nothing I can't skip.
VardaValar1: or be in both places at once? : )
ArPharazonV: Or well, not skip, but postpone or something.
ArPharazonV: That works.
ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript