May 6, 2007 Meeting
5pm EST (GMT - 5);
(GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
Back to News
Transcript work by: Ar-Pharazon-(V)
and Varda-(Valar)
Attending: (14)
Ancalagon-(V)/sarujil, ArathornValar, AriehnV,
ArPharazonV, Arwen V1, Bombur-(V)/MrMonkey2002Blah, Eonwe Valar
(presiding), Gelmir-(V)/Shaggyjoe, Gil-galad-(V)/Xseanzee disco,
GilraenV, Glorfindel VG, Menelvagor Valar, Pallando Valar, VardaValar1
Before-meeting
Meeting begins
Membership:
Legolas-(V) is our new Full Member
Ar-Pharazon's 22nd birthday is today. Yay!
Web:
Art
Poetry
Gaming:
Empire Earth
Jagged Alliance 2
LotRO Monday
WoW:
Uldaman
Wednesday
Lothar Friday
Gilraen and
Gwaihir will be remaining with WoW at this time, not moving to LotRO.
But they will
not be seen much on Lothar as they continue on their old PvP server.
Argent Dawn:
AD gamers
picked Thursday as their get-together night
Tolkien:
Topic from Eonwe: What examples of unrequited love
do we have from LotR and Silmarillion, and what are some of the
consequences?
After-meeting:
Story page, programming, movie. Lot of side windows
going on.
Before-meeting:
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Sarujil: aiya
Sarujil: might be a short meeting today :-)
ArPharazonV: could be :-)
ArPharazonV: especially if we're the only ones!
ArPharazonV: hmm.... a forum I used to be a member of just sent me an
email saying happy birthday
ArPharazonV: but that same forum has been online for months, as far as
I could see
ArPharazonV: so is the forum still there, and is it my settings or
browser or connection that can't find it...
ArPharazonV: or is the forum gone but is the birthday-database and
system still active?
Sarujil: huh
ArPharazonV: ehrr
ArPharazonV: replace the online with offline
ArPharazonV: it's been offline for months
ArPharazonV: never was able to find it
ArPharazonV: and yet, it sent me an email for my birthday
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Arwen V1 has entered the room.
Shaggyjoe has entered the room.
GilraenV has entered the room.
Shaggyjoe: hola
MrMonkey2002Blah has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: heya all
ArPharazonV: Aiya all
MrMonkey2002Blah: hail
GilraenV: Aiya folks. That time already? :-)
Eonwe Valar: Yep
Xseanzee disco has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Elwing is giving Varda a surprise trip to Spiderman 3, so
I'll be chairing tonight.
Eonwe Valar: We'll begin shortly.
Eonwe Valar: ok, let's begin.
top
Eonwe Valar: Elenn
sila lumenn omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: Varda's watching
Spiderman 3 :}
Eonwe Valar: We have a new member, Legolas,
joining us through LotRO.
Eonwe Valar: He was tested by Irmo.
Eonwe Valar: Finals this week for some of us.
Eonwe Valar: Any other membership news?
top
Eonwe Valar: Ok, on to Web news:
Eonwe Valar: New additions to the Glittering
Caves of Aglarond art page.
Eonwe Valar: Varda
now has her own art
cave, with a sketch of Legolas.
ArPharazonV: oh, hang on, membership news
ArPharazonV: happy to announce...
ArPharazonV: it's my birthday!
Eonwe Valar: Deepgrover-(TV)
has added some new
photes of his medieval and fantasy models.
Eonwe Valar: Happy Birthday Phar :}
ArPharazonV: thanks :-)
GilraenV: Happy Birthday! :-)
ArPharazonV: thank you!
Eonwe Valar: In further web news, there is also a new poem added to our
poetry page.
Eonwe Valar: "The
Eyes of the Valley" by He that Walks Unseen-(TV)
top
Eonwe Valar: On to Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: Anyone play anything besides WoW and LotRO?
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: finished Empire Earth, got started on its
expansion
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya!
ArPharazonV: already seeing it's a lot harder than the original :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya Menel, made it just in time for gaming. Play anything
besides WoW and LotRO this week?
Menelvagor Valar: Old Jagged Alliance 2.
Menelvagor Valar: but other than that, mostly WoW.
Menelvagor Valar: I do have some good news from the European WoW branch
though.
Eonwe Valar: ok, When we get to that I'll call on you.
Menelvagor Valar: okido.
Eonwe Valar: Anyone else play anything besides LotRO or WoW?
Eonwe Valar: Ok, LotRO
report then:
Eonwe Valar: LotRO Monday:
Eonwe Valar: Irmo, Miriel, Ancalagon, and Legolas gamed much of the
"day", nearly wiping out the Lone Lands quests and leveling a couple of
times (thank you Ancalagon for the report).
Eonwe Valar: Varda had difficulty reaching a computer until late but
ran several characters. Merry came in after work with Kalimacoin.
Eonwe Valar: Beleg/Belleg kindly passed around goodies after a long
time of questing (including some wonderful recipes!), then switched to
the farmer/cook addict character that his Belleg supports.
Eonwe Valar: Others gamed as well, and I'm sorry to have missed their
sterling company. Erkenbrand's otherguild Herdy and Dis's otherguild
Astarte said hello.
Eonwe Valar: That concludes the LotRO report.
Eonwe Valar: WoW: Uldaman Wednesday:
Eonwe Valar: Varda does not have a report up for Wednesday, so nothing
to give here. [Note: Varda's blood elf warlock Tinta and Elwing's
RedRoseDawn gamed]
Eonwe Valar: Lothar
Friday:
Eonwe Valar: I came in a bit late after working on stuff for finals.
Varda was playing her Priest in Zangarmarsh and completed "Gathering
the Reagents" and "Diaphonous Wings" while I was there.
Eonwe Valar: I played My Paladin in Blade's Edge and completed "Show
Them Gnome Mercy" and "Culling the Wild" before Bilbo joined me.
Eonwe Valar: At that point, we cleared out three or four more quests
from Evergrove.
Eonwe Valar: After Bilbo left, I went to my Druid and levelled him up,
so he's 24 now.
Eonwe Valar: Thus concludes the WoW Lothar Report.
Eonwe Valar: Menelvagor, you have good news from our Argent Dawn branch?
Menelvagor Valar: Aye.
Menelvagor Valar: We've been together this week, and we decided we
should introduce a weekly game night.
Menelvagor Valar: we haven't gotten together for one yet, but for now
we have set it to thursday night.
Eonwe Valar: Cool. I hope that night works out for you all.
Menelvagor Valar: Unfortunately, it won't for Fladrif.
Menelvagor Valar: He announced that he will quit WoW for an indefinite
amount of time.
ArathornValar has entered the room.
ArathornValar has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: He says he plays too little to justify the monthly
fee.
Eonwe Valar: Understandable reason.
Menelvagor Valar: aye.
Menelvagor Valar: As for me, I have returned to WoW completely.
Eonwe Valar: You said the Argent Dawn branch got together this week.
Care to tell us about that get-together?
Menelvagor Valar: I had the "luck" of almost 2 months of game time left
when I got bored, so I got unbored before my time ran out.
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Menelvagor Valar: well, mostly through our chat channel.
Eonwe Valar: Ah, no gaming together then?
Menelvagor Valar: apart from today where Pharazon and I teamed up with
a few friends and a random for Blackrock Depths, nope.
Menelvagor Valar: Last week was a great one in the Sunken Temple
though, but I am sure Arien already reported that one.
Menelvagor Valar: I have also been levelling my Shaman again, at 54
now, so closing in to Outlands capabilities and taking on the bigger
dungeons :-D
Eonwe Valar: Congrats.
ArPharazonV: I decided to set up sunday as alt-day starting this week,
but the first installment didn't go as planned...
ArPharazonV: indeed, my main was drafted into BRD with Menel's shaman,
and I got stuck farming cobrascales for someone's leg-enchant, both
with my main :-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: So that does it for Argent Dawn Valar Guild branch reports?
ArPharazonV: so the best I could do for my little rogue was 4 or 5 Loch
Modan quests.... but hey, every bit helps
ArPharazonV: does it for me
Eonwe Valar: Ah, more, pardon.
Eonwe Valar: oki.
Eonwe Valar: ok even.
Menelvagor Valar: I hope we will have more to report next week.
Eonwe Valar: We all look forward to it :}
Menelvagor Valar: as do I.
top
Eonwe Valar: Ok, Tolkien time :} You all have
until I prepare my tolkien topic to propose one of your own :}
Eonwe Valar: OK, my topic is prepared. Anyone besides me have one?
Eonwe Valar: Anyone besides me, and maybe Phar and Menel, here? :}
Menelvagor Valar: I had one earlier this week, but it will take some
time to remember what it was *grin*
Eonwe Valar: Ok, we shall begin mine.
GilraenV: (I'm here in spirit, but am cleaning in fact)
AriehnV has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Arien, just made it for Tolkien Time.
AriehnV: Aiya alltogether
AriehnV: /me smiles
AriehnV: Have you chosen a topic already?
Eonwe Valar: Today's topic is *drumroll*
Eonwe Valar: (Was just about to announce it)
AriehnV: /me chuckles
Eonwe Valar: I was considering Arien the other day, as well as Tilion
and Fionwë, the Vala form of Eonwë from the Lost Tales.
AriehnV: Interesting little figure she is, Arien
Eonwe Valar: The Silmarillion says that Tilion loves Arien, but doesn't
say Arien loves Tilion. Furthermore, I don't believe the Lost Tales
ever said she loved Fionwë.
Eonwe Valar: So, the topic is, what other examples of unrequitted love
do we have from LotR and Silmarillion, and what are some of the
consequences?
Menelvagor Valar: Finduilas versus Turin.
Eonwe Valar: for those not familiar with the term, unrequitted
essentially means unreturned.
Menelvagor Valar: Does that include unrequitted as wished or sought for?
AriehnV: I guess if somebody loves someone at least one part wants or
wishes it
Eonwe Valar: If one person loves another person, and the other person
does not return that love.
Menelvagor Valar: I mean that Turin loves Finduilas, but not in a
romantic sense, more like a wise queen or elder sister.
Eonwe Valar: Romantic love.
Menelvagor Valar: thanks.
Menelvagor Valar: Well, I was reading the newly released full version
of The Children of Hurin...
Menelvagor Valar: so the tale of Turin is kind of fresh in my memory.
AriehnV: Anarion and Emeris is an example from the silmarillion
Menelvagor Valar: Would you explain that, Arien?
AriehnV: I think that Emeris loved him in the beginning but the love
lost itself fairly quickly between the green hills of Numenor and the
vast see
AriehnV: Everybody knows who both figures are ? and the name is Aldarion
Eonwe Valar: Aldarion was the Ship-King of Numenor.
AriehnV: My fault here, aye
AriehnV: him I mean
Eonwe Valar: For information on his relationship with his wife, one has
to go to Unfinished Tales.
Xseanzee disco has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Wasn't Aldarion the first one who sailed to the new
shores of Middle Earth in force and made colonies of Numenor there?
AriehnV: well , if i remember the tale correctly, they met first each
other withug her knowing who he was
AriehnV: and she fell in love with him
Sarujil has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: but he was more in love with the sea and was never
home.
AriehnV: indeed
Menelvagor Valar: I don't think that was unrequitted love.
Menelvagor Valar: it just went horribly wrong because Aldarion's
greater love wasn't her.
Eonwe Valar: That is an interesting question as to whether that counts
as unrequitted love.
AriehnV: true .. then i withdraw this
Eonwe Valar: He did marry her.
Menelvagor Valar: Don't ever withdraw things in here Arien :-)
Menelvagor Valar: it was a good example.
Menelvagor Valar: it sparked some thought and discussion.
Menelvagor Valar: therefore it is good :-)
AriehnV: probably i just drew the line too wide
Menelvagor Valar: We always do eventually :-)
Eonwe Valar: Did he love her in the beginning?
Menelvagor Valar: If I remember the tale correctly, he always loved her.
Menelvagor Valar: he just loved the open seas better, and could not go
long without being on the open water.
AriehnV: I am not entirely sure , as his father wanted Aldarion to marry
Eonwe Valar: I haven't read it in a while.
Eonwe Valar: I'd have to skim it to find out.
AriehnV: but he hesitated an awful long time because he knew that his
love for the sea was a bit (too) big
AriehnV: or at least had an inkling
AriehnV: it was duty and obedience towards his father and the beauty of
Emeris i think
AriehnV: there was a kind of love between them , i d say that
Menelvagor Valar: Her name is Erendis btw.
AriehnV: erendis .. when will i learn to get the names of people and
countries right? no matter where
ArPharazonV: not to be confused with Emeriss, green dragon!
AriehnV: /me blushes and whistles
AriehnV: Anyway, ye knew whom i meant from the beginning ;-)
AriehnV: your honor
Menelvagor Valar: Of course :-)
Menelvagor Valar: only the naming was wrong, not the character.
AriehnV: any other and better examples?
Eonwe Valar: After a brief skimming, I suppose he did love her.
AriehnV: but whether she loved him i do not know
Eonwe Valar: She loved him as well.
Eonwe Valar: At least at first.
AriehnV: i d say in the beginning
Eonwe Valar: He was obsitnate about getting married because he didn't
want to leave a woman sitting at home waiting for him.
Eonwe Valar: He knew himself well enough to know that was going to
happen.
Eonwe Valar: His father pushed for marriage, his mother kept contriving
ways for Aldarion and Erendis to meet.
Eonwe Valar: Doesn't sound like it began too well, despite their love.
Menelvagor Valar: not exactly Eonwe.
Eonwe Valar: How not so?
Menelvagor Valar: Unfinished Tales states that at a point Tar-Meneldur
would not let his son leave Numenor.
Menelvagor Valar: but Aldarion's mother persuaded Meneldur not to use
the King's power to make Aldarion stay.
Eonwe Valar: I told you was was just skimming, heh.
Eonwe Valar: *I was
Menelvagor Valar: However, it was the custom in those days that when a
ship would set out over the Great Sea, a woman,
Menelvagor Valar: usually of the kin of the captain would come down to
the harbour and set a Green Bough of oiolairë upon its prow for
safe returning.
Menelvagor Valar: Meneldur forbade his wife and his kin to do so.
Menelvagor Valar: At that time, Erendis volunteered to take the Bough
herself, since she was not forbidden.
Eonwe Valar: Aye
Menelvagor Valar: here a quote.
Menelvagor Valar: At that time Aldarion first looken on Erendis with
love; and he stood long in the stern looking back as the Palarran
passed out to sea.
Menelvagor Valar: It is said that he hastened his return, and was gone
less time than he had designed; and coming back he brought gifts for
the Queen and the ladies of her house,
Menelvagor Valar: but the richest gift he brought for Erendis, and that
was a diamond.
Menelvagor Valar: Cold now were the greetings between the King and his
son; and Meneldur rebuked him, saying that such a gift was unbecoming
in the King's Heir...
Menelvagor Valar: unless it were a betrothal gift, and he demanded that
Aldarion declare his mind.
AriehnV: and she had that diamond set in a ring of silver i think , in
a headband
AriehnV: exclusively wrought and well fit for her exterior
Eonwe Valar: Ok, but the part pertinent to the topic is that the love
was returned.
AriehnV: aye
Eonwe Valar: Any other examples we can examine?
Menelvagor Valar: aye.
Menelvagor Valar: as I said, Turin and Finduilas.
Eonwe Valar: So far we have Turin and Finduilas as the only example of
unrequitted love.
Menelvagor Valar: well, there's more to the story of course, but if you
take my word for it, I guess I don't need to explain :-D
Menelvagor Valar: Maeglin is another one.
Eonwe Valar: Pardon, I should probably not assume so quickly everyone
knows about Turin and FInduilas.
Menelvagor Valar: I'll try to make the story as quick as possible.
Eonwe Valar: THanks.
Menelvagor Valar: I'll start with the return of Gwindor and Turin to
Nargothrond.
Menelvagor Valar: Gwindor had been captured in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad
and had saved Turin the same fate by helping him escape his own capture.
Menelvagor Valar: Now, before the Nirnaeth, Gwindor and Finduilas had
been lovers.
Menelvagor Valar: but Gwindor had been broken by his slavery and he was
diminished in wisdom and power and beauty.
Menelvagor Valar: But Turin was in the prime of his life, and with
Anglachel, the Black Sword he had taken from Beleg, he soon became a
well known power in Nargothrond, one which the Orcs feared.
Menelvagor Valar: And Finduilas was torn in half, for her heart still
longed for Gwindor, but gradually was turned to Turin.
Menelvagor Valar: But Turin saw in her a sister, or a wise queen and
did not love her back as she might have wished.
Menelvagor Valar: Eventually, Gwindor found out and confronted Turin,
who responded that he did not love her like that.
Menelvagor Valar: then Gwindor prophesied: "Beware, Turin son of Hurin,
for on you a heavy doom is set, and now only Finduilas, daughter of
Orodreth may come between it"
Menelvagor Valar: Now, when Morgoth finally set his mind to getting rid
of the pests in Nargothrond (and with it deal another stroke to Hurin
and his kin)...
Menelvagor Valar: Glaurung came forth once again and with a mighty army
of Orcs destroyed the forces of Nargothrond.
Menelvagor Valar: Turin escaped death in that battle because he saved
Gwindor.
Menelvagor Valar: However, Gwindor was already mortally wounded and
urged him on to save Finduilas.
Menelvagor Valar: As Turin came to the great bridge of Nargothrond, the
prisoners were just being herded out.
Menelvagor Valar: but there Turin was caught in a spell of Glaurung.
Menelvagor Valar: Instead of minding the prisoners, he went north to
Dor-Lomin, his home of old to check on his mother and sister, who he
loved more than anything.
Menelvagor Valar: Now, as the army of orcs came up from Nargothrond,
they were waylaid by the men of Brethil, and the Orcs killed their
captives immediately.
Menelvagor Valar: There ends my hastened story.
Menelvagor Valar: Now the point is, that had Turin really loved
Finduilas, he would not have been caught in Glaurung's spell as easily.
Menelvagor Valar: then his doom, and ultimately the doom of Gondolin
would have been averted.
Menelvagor Valar: and the doom of Nienor Niniel as well.
Eonwe Valar: THat's quite a consequence.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye.
Menelvagor Valar: but Gondolin is not his doing alone.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, now go to your next one :}
ArPharazonV: ah, yes...
Menelvagor Valar: After Turin and Nienor died, Hurin was set free and
shouted near the Echoriath to Turgon.
ArPharazonV: Idril and Maeglin...
Menelvagor Valar: thus Morgoth knew the general location.
Menelvagor Valar: and that is where Maeglin comes in.
Menelvagor Valar: for Morgoth then drew a net of scouts around the
Echoriath, outside the range where the eagles would kill them.
Menelvagor Valar: Then, as Maeglin got more and more angry with Idril's
refusal and Tuor's standing with Turgon, tunneled through the Echoriath
and ventured beyond the ring.
Menelvagor Valar: then he was caught by Morgoth's spies and brought
before him.
Menelvagor Valar: and thus he betrayed Gondolin.
Eonwe Valar: Not going to tell about the promises of Morgoth for
Maeglin's betrayal? :}
Menelvagor Valar: so, even though Maeglin might have been caught
eventually, without the spies being there due to Hurin's calling, due
to him being set free due to his children's death, due to the fact
Finduilas was not able to avert Turin's doom...
Menelvagor Valar: Idril of course.
Menelvagor Valar: The same happened in Rohan by the way.
Menelvagor Valar: Gríma's lust for Eowyn drove him to betray
Rohan to Saruman.
ArPharazonV: too long have you haunted her steps..
Menelvagor Valar: aye.
Menelvagor Valar: but that's 1 example where the chain of events could
hardly be overseen.
Menelvagor Valar: I must admit though, that if Turin had not fallen to
his doom, Gondolin would not have fallen, and thus Eärendil not
escaped and come before the Valar.
Menelvagor Valar: the other 2 are examples of unrequitted love leading
to betrayal.
Eonwe Valar: Well, I don't know if GOndolin wouldn't have fallen, but
it would've taken longer.
Menelvagor Valar: aye.
Menelvagor Valar: but then would Eärendil not been older and
possibly have fallen in the defense of Gondolin?
Menelvagor Valar: I have yet another example.
Menelvagor Valar: Eowyn towards Aragorn.
Eonwe Valar: Earendil as heir to the king might've still been sent off/
Eonwe Valar: I was waiting for someone to name that one, Menel :}
Menelvagor Valar: well..
Menelvagor Valar: it's not exactly what you are looking for.
Eonwe Valar: Is it really love though? Aragorn says Eowyn is not in
love with him, but "a thought and a shadow."
Menelvagor Valar: as it is not Aragorn Eowyn loves, but that which he
embodies.
Menelvagor Valar: being free, having adventures.
Menelvagor Valar: not being caged to the household because she is a
woman.
Eonwe Valar: That's why I was waiting for someone to name it :} Some
people might've still seen it as unrequitted love.
Menelvagor Valar: in some part it is.
Menelvagor Valar: but even though it takes a while, Aragorn's refusal
does lead to a good end.
Menelvagor Valar: for Eowyn disobeys her King's orders and leaves with
the Rohirrim to Gondor.
Menelvagor Valar: she also helps Merry disobey.
ArPharazonV: if she only loves what he embodies, and she *does* end up
having adventures...
ArPharazonV: is that still unrequitted love? ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: together they manage to break the strongest foe on
the field against Minas Tirith: The Witch King.
Menelvagor Valar: no, Phar.
Eonwe Valar: I would say it's not because it's not really love towards
Aragorn.
Menelvagor Valar: but the fact is that at the time, Eowyn believes she
loves Aragorn.
Eonwe Valar: Believing she loves is different from actually loving,
though.
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: so from Eowyn's point of view (even temporary) it is
unrequitted.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Varda, tlaking about Unrequitted love.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya Varda~!
Eonwe Valar: talking even
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
VardaValar1: Me, I like requited love. :-)
Eonwe Valar: One sec, I'll quote the topic beginning :}
VardaValar1: Poor Eowyn. Infatuated with a walking ideal.
Menelvagor Valar: true, but even though you be the Lady of the Stars,
you are also an Entwife.
Eonwe Valar: Eonwe Valar: The Silmarillion says that Tilion loves
Arien, but doesn't say Arien loves Tilion. Furthermore, I don't believe
the Lost Tales ever said she loved Fionwë.
Eonwe Valar: Eonwe Valar: So, the topic is, what other examples of
unrequitted love do we have from LotR and Silmarillion, and what are
some of the consequences?
VardaValar1: Requited both ways, Menel. ; )
Menelvagor Valar: so far we have had Erendis and Aldarion.
VardaValar1: So we have Eoywn, any others so far?
VardaValar1: Thank you
Menelvagor Valar: but we figured that it was in fact requited, but that
Aldarion's love for the sea was the greater.
Menelvagor Valar: then we have Finduilas and Turin.
Eonwe Valar: I suppose I should use the term "other" loosely in there,
since it also doesn't say that Arien doesn't return their love in those
situations...
AriehnV has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: which together with Maeglin and Idril's leads to the
fall of Gondolin.
VardaValar1: Arien probably likes him fine, just not in a
boyfriend/girlfriend way.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, I also specified we're talking about Romantic love.
ArPharazonV: well, she probably loves Tilion, Fionwe, or neither, so
there's *some* unrequitted there
VardaValar1: Eol for Aredhel
Menelvagor Valar: also Gríma and Eowyn.
Eonwe Valar: Is that really unrequitted? Seems she was happy enough to
live with him until Maeglin decided he wanted to go.
VardaValar1: Aredhel was in need of a refuge and grateful, but
ultimately didn't seem to have real love for Eol.
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Probably an iffy one. : )
VardaValar1: Welcome back, Arien : )
AriehnV: Hannon Le, Varda :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Well...
VardaValar1: Melkor for Varda, that really was unrequited, whatever the
feeling was.
Glorfindel VG has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: it does seem to be a bit like Brodda and Aerin, in
Dór-Lomin.
AriehnV: indeed< guess Melkor wanted her only for her power
VardaValar1: The maid of Nimrodel and the Man of Dol Amroth, whose name
escapes me, was a marriage of convenience. She left him.
VardaValar1: Aiya Glorfindel : )
Glorfindel VG: hello : )
Menelvagor Valar: I am wondering. which Glorfindel are you exactly?
Glorfindel VG: hmm never really thought about that exactly
Glorfindel VG: my theory is they are the same
Menelvagor Valar: Are you the Gondolin Glorfindel restling and killing
a Balrog on the northern pass of the Echoriath...
VardaValar1: JRRT decided to agree with you, Glorfindel. Sweated to try
to make it work.
Menelvagor Valar: it's hardly possible though.
Menelvagor Valar: one sec, grabbing BoLT 2 for fall of Gondolin for
correctness.
Glorfindel VG: well consider Gandalf the Grey & Gandalf the White
Glorfindel VG: so it is possible
VardaValar1: JRRT had Glorfindel reborn.
Eonwe Valar: I've got BoLT1 to see if Tilion was a concern while
Fionwë was around.
Menelvagor Valar: that is different really.
Eonwe Valar: OK, here's a line I think I will share :}
Menelvagor Valar: Gandalf is a Maia with a mission.
Menelvagor Valar: his spirit was sent back to Middle Earth by the Valar
to complete that mission.
Eonwe Valar: Setup: The Valar had decided to set down the courses of
the newly-made Sun and moon."
Eonwe Valar: scratch out the "
Menelvagor Valar: same goes for Beren and Luthien, while that mission
is not that clear.
Eonwe Valar: "So saying Manwë sent Fionwë his son, swiftest
of all who move about the airs, and bade him say to Urwendi that the
bark of the Sun come back awhile to Valinor,..
Eonwe Valar: for the Gods have counsels for her ear; and Fionwë
went most readily, for he had conceived a great love for that bright
maiden long ago, and her lovliness now,....
Eonwe Valar: when bathed in fire she sate as the radiant mistress of
the Sun, set him aflame with the eagerness of the Gods."
Eonwe Valar: Ok, two reasons for this quote:
Eonwe Valar: 1.)It neatly once again skirts the issue of Urwendi's
feelings towards Fionwë
Eonwe Valar: 2.) It paints a great picture. Fionwë was already the
"swiftest etc," and this just paints a picture of even greater speed,
so I'm guessing, Warp27? :}
VardaValar1: hehe
Eonwe Valar: About Glorfindel: One of TOlkien's letters does suggest
Glorfindel was sent back with a mission in the Second Age, and Tolkien
goes through a great deal to make the two one and the same.
Menelvagor Valar: well, I was about to speculate some on that.
Menelvagor Valar: but I thought I should not interrupt you on your
Fionwe story :-)
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
VardaValar1: Glorfindel is a completely different topic, so it is nice
to get to finish the earlier one first.
Menelvagor Valar: What I was thinking was that Glorfindel did die in
the Echoriath, as is told in BoLT...
Menelvagor Valar: well, just plain common courtesy not to interrupt
once someone has started quoting.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, it seems that Ilinsor, the steersman of the Moon, did
not have Romantic love towards Urwendi in BoLT.
Eonwe Valar: He was "jealous of her radiance."
Menelvagor Valar: hihi
Eonwe Valar: Tried to make the stars dim themselves when he approached,
the stars would have none of that.
AriehnV: hmnm , that would be swiftflyer is certainly after me
Menelvagor Valar: hmmm...
Menelvagor Valar: I remember that.
AriehnV: but he will never catch me .. the Vala dont allow it
Menelvagor Valar: he wanted to be close to her radiance and was
scorched by it.
Eonwe Valar: Enter here my standard quote from the Tale of Qorinomi :}
Menelvagor Valar: thus the cycle of the moon became one of darkened
stages, when he started coming too close to Arien again.
Eonwe Valar: Has anyone here not heard me tell about the Tale of
Qorinomi and actually wants to?
Menelvagor Valar: even if I had heard it, I can't remember, so let's
hear it again and commonly call out: "Ah right! Now I remember!"
AriehnV: Have to admit that i cant remeber hearing the word Qorinomi
Eonwe Valar: Or you can read it yourself :} It just I pretty well
mentioned it whenever the topic came up, don't want to bring it out
again if everyone knows it :}
VardaValar1: hehe, Menel
AriehnV: so enlighten me , noble Herald
Eonwe Valar: One moment *Prepares narrative voice*
Menelvagor Valar: while you enlighten us (and I will say "Ah right! Now
I remember" if I did hear it before) I will go and escort Windbored
through Stormwind.
Eonwe Valar: "For ‘tis said that ere the Great End come Melko shall in
some wise contrive a quarrel between Moon and Sun, and Ilinsor shall
seek to follow Urwendi through the Gates
Eonwe Valar: and when they are gone the Gates of both East and West
will be destroyed, and Urwendi and Ilinsor shall be lost.
Eonwe Valar: So shall it be that Fionwë Urion, son of Manwë,
of love for Urwendi shall in the end be Melko’s bane, and shall destroy
the world to destroy his foe, and so shall all things then be rolled
away."
Eonwe Valar: So, that's what would happen if Ilinsor tried something
against the Sun :}
Menelvagor Valar: auchie.
Menelvagor Valar: and no, I did not know that one.
AriehnV: hmm interesting ...
Menelvagor Valar: Now I fully understand the reason behind Eonwe's
quarrel with Morgoth :-D
Eonwe Valar: :}
AriehnV: better not meddle with the sun then , or with me :P
Eonwe Valar: This comes from The Hiding of Valinor
Eonwe Valar: BoLT 1
AriehnV: for I will defend her untill i go down in glory]
VardaValar1: I mess with your pathway now and then, but generally not.
: )
VardaValar1: You seem to have it under control : )
AriehnV: hehe :-) *bows*
Eonwe Valar: I'm sure Varda's safe from Fionwë's wrath in any case
:}
Menelvagor Valar: so am I *grin*
Menelvagor Valar: anyways, escorting that slow goat Windsor/
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, also says Urwendi brought her ship "unwillingly" to
Valinor to hear the counsel of the Valar.
Eonwe Valar: Nothing to indicate Urwendi's feelings toward Fionwë.
Curious that Tolkien left this one open when all the other "great
romances" are fairly well defined.
Eonwe Valar: But what gal could resist a guy who would destroy the
world for her? :}
VardaValar1: She might like being chased? Very serious about her work
though
Eonwe Valar: Interesting point.
Menelvagor Valar: uhm...
Menelvagor Valar: Eonwe...
Eonwe Valar: yes?
Menelvagor Valar: the fact that he would prefer her above the entire
world?
Menelvagor Valar: like that's a good trait in a person who's supposed
to be "good"?
Eonwe Valar: It's not like he targetted the world.
VardaValar1: Usually works to the world's advantage, since the loved
one usually needs the world in good shape to be in good shape.
Menelvagor Valar: well, it would kinda fit into Morgoth's all or
nothing thinking :-D
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth decided to stir up trouble, and Fionwë showed
him the results :}
AriehnV: I dont think Morgoth would have cared
Menelvagor Valar: Morgoth wanted the mastery of all things living.
Menelvagor Valar: it is only natural that if he would not get it, he
would wish for no one else to have it either.
Menelvagor Valar: and going back to Windsor (first time failed due to
disconnection)
VardaValar1: Evil dc!
Eonwe Valar: He would still not wish for his own demise.
AriehnV: true enough , guess he only really cared for himself .. , me
myself and I , all for me
AriehnV: thats his mottow
AriehnV: what made me a bit wonder is why he gave the light of the
trees to Ungolianth
VardaValar1: He didn't exactly give it. He was using Ungoliant as a
weapon against the Valar.
AriehnV: was it real gratefulness or was he in the end afraid of her?
AriehnV: a true , using her
AriehnV: sounds all right
Eonwe Valar: Aye, he used Ungoliant against the Valar. She would not
serve him willingly, so he had to coax her.
Eonwe Valar: He had no use for the light of the Trees, so why not?
AriehnV: his realm was darkness , indeed, black as the void
Eonwe Valar: Ok, so the relationship between Fionwë and
Urwendi/Tilion and Arien is ambiguous at best. What other examples and
consequences of unrequitted love are there?
AriehnV: where he ruled (or thought he did)
Eonwe Valar: or do we have any left?
AriehnV: Beruthiel and her husband
Eonwe Valar: The cat lady?
AriehnV: King and Queen of Gondor , either the last or the last before
the line of the kings came to an end
AriehnV: aye her
Eonwe Valar: Don't think enough is given in Sil or LotR to draw
conclusions about their relationship.
AriehnV: there is in the BoUT
AriehnV: I think
VardaValar1: Melkor "his vengeance was achieved" referring to
destroying the Trees.
Eonwe Valar: Trying to stick to those two so more people can chime in,
thought it does seem we only have a handful chiming in anyway.
AriehnV: there is a reference to her ... , not much true , but it seems
that she was a rather ruthless lady who used her cats as spied and he
mentions that the King shut her away in Osgiliath
AriehnV: so cant imagine there was love between them if he banned her
AriehnV: but go on if ye can think of more
VardaValar1: there is a good bit about her. Using her black cats to spy
on everyone, with a white cat to keep them in line. Banished onto a
ship.
Menelvagor Valar: just finished making sure Windsor got back into his
eternal loop of being captured, freed, killed and recaptured. (whether
he was resurrected before or after is speculation)
Eonwe Valar: Do we have any evidence that either Beruthiel or her
husband loved the other and the other did not?
AriehnV: :-)
VardaValar1: They keep a group of priests on call just for Windsor. ; )
AriehnV: dont think so
AriehnV: no evidence other than that he banned her
Menelvagor Valar: I think Onyxia just likes to be uncovered all the
time.
Menelvagor Valar: or rather, likes to be uncovered and settle right
back into her place a few minutes after, as if nothing has happened.
AriehnV: i killed her twice '-)
AriehnV: rather Findu did
AriehnV: alas
AriehnV: well anyway, it has been a pleasure as usual, ladies and
gentlemen
Eonwe Valar: I think we've exhausted our list of unrequitted lovers at
this point.
VardaValar1: Pardon, was exhuming Queen Beruthiel
VardaValar1: Found her in Unfinished Tales
Menelvagor Valar: I wouldn't know any others, no.
VardaValar1: Says she was loveless
VardaValar1: also childless
VardaValar1: The King had her set on the boat alone with her cats.
VardaValar1: Sounds as if it was a lack of love on both sides.
Eonwe Valar: So no unrequitted love, because there was no love to begin
with.
AriehnV: I have to make my boat ready and assure that Silpion does n
AriehnV: iok hang on i have the reference for queen beruthiel]
AriehnV: Its a footnote in the Book of Unfinished tales
AriehnV: footnote 7, p. 519
AriehnV: an addition to the chapter on the Istarti
VardaValar1: Aye,that's where I got it except p. 419
AriehnV: else i dont think there is other reference
VardaValar1: A bare mention by Aragorn in LotR
AriehnV: and that is from private notes partly illegible even to the
closest kin
AriehnV: I remember that .. as sharp as they eyes of the cats of Queen
Beruthiel
AriehnV: just not exactly where
AriehnV: got it
AriehnV: Aragorn said it to gandalf in Moria about Gollum
VardaValar1: It was in Moria
AriehnV: He is surer footed and has sharper eyes than the cats of Queen
beruthiel
VardaValar1: FotR II 4
AriehnV: Namarie all :-) May the light shine upon your road and the
Earth Mother keep you strong
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, ladies and gents.
Eonwe Valar: *Bangs Gavel*
top
After-meeting:
Eonwe Valar: Meeting adjourned. You all are free :}
Menelvagor Valar: I thought I was free to come and go as I pleased
without the official gavel banging?
VardaValar1: Of course you are. : )
VardaValar1: means free chat
VardaValar1: Eonwe and I sorta feel we need to stay here during the
meeting. Gavel says we can go. : )
VardaValar1: Couple of us are trying to set up the Forum for LotRO
VardaValar1: Alatar also set up Ventrilo for LotRO and plays
VardaValar1: Mahtan-ex now has the buddy key and is trying it out. : )
Menelvagor Valar: Oh yes, I wouldn't exactly leave early unless I
really had to :-)
VardaValar1: He could de-ex himself that way.
Menelvagor Valar: cool.
Menelvagor Valar: he would be my former ex-father in law.
Menelvagor Valar: or something like that :-)
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: He's been watching LotRO over Alatar's shoulder. : )
Menelvagor Valar: kewl.
Menelvagor Valar: oh.
VardaValar1: Anyone need changes on the Members page?
Menelvagor Valar: since he is in contact with Alatar...
Menelvagor Valar: Can you ask him if Alatar could contact me concerning
my access to the webpage?
VardaValar1: I told Alatar about your problem
Menelvagor Valar: ah, good.
VardaValar1: He was surprised to hear we had a problem with his email.
VardaValar1: Also, he says he will soon be moving the Valar Guild files
to a better server, where the PHP will be updated.
VardaValar1: The current one can't be updated.
VardaValar1: It's Linux also.
Eonwe Valar: That's certainlt good from my perspective :}
VardaValar1: I thought you'd be happy : )
Eonwe Valar: *certainly good. The updated PHP part :}
Eonwe Valar: Means I don't have to write my own code for standard PHP
functions :}
VardaValar1: I am also hoping to get into PHP, and am very happy about
it. : )
VardaValar1: Aye : )
Menelvagor Valar: I guess I will have to wait a bit longer then :-)
VardaValar1: Not really
VardaValar1: It will be set up the same
Eonwe Valar: It's the little things, like case-insensitive functions,
that will help with the Search Engine.
Eonwe Valar: Well, Search Program.
VardaValar1: On the Search for the poetry and stories,
VardaValar1: The folders are a bit untidy right now, and some stuff is
doubled where I was experimenting
VardaValar1: Think I'd better tidy it up pretty soon? Are we getting
close?
Eonwe Valar: I haven't added that functionality yet. Still some kinks
to work out in the Encyclopedia version.
VardaValar1: ok.
VardaValar1: whilst I am tidying, is there any request for arrangement
changing?
Eonwe Valar: I don't know why, but it's still at times including what
should be removed when I strip out the html tags.
Eonwe Valar: Nothing that's leaping to mind right now.
VardaValar1: some of the older files say html, all the newer ones say
htm
VardaValar1: My email is always open. : )
Eonwe Valar: What would be helpful is if more people in the guild would
use it and tell me about stuff they find problems with.
VardaValar1: So, you guys ready to give the Search engine a test?
VardaValar1: What should we mainly be looking for?
Eonwe Valar: Trying to fix problems might give me an idea for anything
I'd ask about arrangement changing.
Eonwe Valar: Or other ideas period.
VardaValar1: On the LotRO forum section, I am not sure what we say
under General. Guess that's why we all it general? : )
VardaValar1: *call
Eonwe Valar: Aye :}
Eonwe Valar: Basically, anything that doesn't have its own board.
VardaValar1: okies
Eonwe Valar: Bragging about character titles and the like.
VardaValar1: The Search tells me we need an article on Beruthiel
VardaValar1: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Do you think you'll need/wants a hunts/grouping/questing
board like for WoW?
VardaValar1: Guess we still have a problem with the author's name in
the article showing up as a searched character name.
VardaValar1: So far, we haven't needed it
Eonwe Valar: Aye, seems that's still happening.
VardaValar1: We might
VardaValar1: Generally we see who's on and jump in together wherever we
can
Eonwe Valar: I'm hoping some of our new LotRO members will want to
see/meet/chat with those not in LotRO.
VardaValar1: Had 6 of us today questing together who were lower level,
and three questing together who were higher level.
VardaValar1: Me too
Eonwe Valar: Cool.
VardaValar1: Both groups chatting together : )
VardaValar1: Fainan has been acting as guild bank when needed
VardaValar1: All I can think of at this point on the search is making
the author's name into an image. Not great.
Eonwe Valar: an image?
VardaValar1: Then it wouldn't be picked up as text
VardaValar1: Like the Valar Guild gif
VardaValar1: But that would be murder
Eonwe Valar: We'd need someone willing to do upwards of 100 gifs for
each author, heh.
VardaValar1: I know who it would be, too. :-(
VardaValar1: 1 gif per author, recopied onto their articles, but still
an awful lot.
Eonwe Valar: Aye
VardaValar1: maybe filter out names if they have a guild mark attached?
Eonwe Valar: There's a way to get them into the pages, but the initial
work would be a pain :}
Eonwe Valar: Actually, I have tried searching for the guild tag.
VardaValar1: My little web comp is not good for image work.
VardaValar1: Did you find it? : )
VardaValar1: what was the trick again for finding more than one word?
Eonwe Valar: I'm guessing part of the problem might be that in some of
the code, the words "by" and the guild name are not on the same line
for some reason.
Eonwe Valar: I noticed that in a few of the samples I took from the
Encyclopedia to base the Search Engine on. I thought I'd accounted for
it though.
VardaValar1: it would be an error on my part
VardaValar1: Do some not have "by" at all?
VardaValar1: It seems to be noticing the two words
VardaValar1: If you could let me know which are misbehaving, I could
see about fixing them.
Eonwe Valar: That would be an interesting test.
VardaValar1: Got a couple?
VardaValar1: brb
Eonwe Valar: None specifically.
VardaValar1: back
VardaValar1: Any way to check
Eonwe Valar: wb
VardaValar1: Cool. It notices by Varda-(Valar) and serves it up.
Eonwe Valar: Well, you could look at the html code, and if the only
reference you see to what you searched for is the by line, then
something's wrong.
Eonwe Valar: Let me look at the Search code real quick. As I recall
editting it last, it shouldn't even display search results based on
author names.
VardaValar1: Tilion gives results, by Tilion does not.
VardaValar1: by Tilion-(Valar) gives results
VardaValar1: Pharazon, happy birthday. :-)
ArPharazonV: thanks :-)
VardaValar1: How was the party?
VardaValar1: so your code works, Eonwe. : )
Eonwe Valar: Hmmm,.. Apparently the code that looked for the tag as
part of the by line isn't in there...
VardaValar1: Sounds as if it worked on those Tilion examples.
Eonwe Valar: The code should divide the articles into 3 groups.
Eonwe Valar: The third one, being "Articles by so-an-so" shouldn't
display, and all articles where the only reference in the byline should
be there.
Eonwe Valar: *only reference is in
VardaValar1: I only see the two divisions
VardaValar1: subject, article
Eonwe Valar: Those are the only two that should show.
VardaValar1: No worries then
Eonwe Valar: I blocked the third from showing until I fixed it, which
obviously wasn't done.
Eonwe Valar: Put simply, a search for "Varda-(Valar)" should display no
results.
VardaValar1: When the Stories/Poems/Articles are all being searched, I
assume we need to hit something to pick one of them?
Eonwe Valar: I'll set it up so that you can choose the section you want
to search, aye.
Eonwe Valar: That way Encyclopedia results won't mix with Story
results, for example.
VardaValar1: Oops. Varda-(Valar) does show results. Which does not
displease me.
VardaValar1: Thanks. Could get pretty murky searching for an article
and having six Fiction pieces come up.
Eonwe Valar: Aye
Eonwe Valar: I may wait for the move to the new server to do anything
with the Search Engine, simply so I can make all the code adjustments
at once.
VardaValar1: This Search thing is great.
VardaValar1: He'll pick up the entire folder for Valar and move it to
the new server, so it should probably not matter.
VardaValar1: same domain name.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, but with the new PHP I can replace some of the stuff
I do in the Search Engine with the PHP functions.
VardaValar1: Oh right!
VardaValar1: Nice : )
Eonwe Valar: It's surprising how many pages Eonwe-(Valar) is on in the
Encyclopedia :}
VardaValar1: Because you're a busy busy guy!
VardaValar1: We are going to be having an increasing need for alternate
names found in the books, for characters.
VardaValar1: I keep spotting ones we haven't listed yet in HoMe.
VardaValar1: I would like to show where they come from.
Glorfindel VG has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: TT on TBs for anyone interested.
Eonwe Valar: *TBS
VardaValar1: Thanks Eonwe : )
Eonwe Valar: I still don't like some of those commercials they made for
the movies.
ArPharazonV: afraid I didn't see too many of those
Eonwe Valar: Feel fortunate.
VardaValar1: hehe
MrMonkey2002Blah has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Miranda Otto made a good Eowyn.
VardaValar1: Yay : )
Eonwe Valar: Not so pleased with the choice of Arwen.
GilraenV: Really? I like Liv Tyler
Eonwe Valar: Then again, I'm also not so pleased by what they did to
Arwen's character, but you've all heard me complain about that enough :}
GilraenV: The scenery in TTT is just gorgeous
Eonwe Valar: Live Tyler's ok, but I'm not a fan.
VardaValar1: I was glad they dropped most of the XenArwen, just the
Glorfindel-steal scene that really bugs me that I can think of.
Eonwe Valar: Beside sthe part where she's all of a sudden going to die
if Aragorn loses the WotR?
VardaValar1: Eowyn's character was written more like the book.
GilraenV: That part made no sense
VardaValar1: ack, ok that one was annoying. Not Liv Tyler's fault.
Eonwe Valar: Sure she was, because Everybody likes putting forward the
Eowyn-type woman.
VardaValar1: Not much in the books to show Arwen doing.
VardaValar1: Makes the romance tough to show.
Eonwe Valar: There's always flashbacks.
GilraenV: aye, but flashbacks aren't a very good storytelling device, I
find
GilraenV: I want to see the story... don't want you telling ht estory
and jumping further back to explain things every ten minutes
GilraenV: *the
VardaValar1: They used some flashbacks during the movie in various
spots.
Eonwe Valar: Well, it depends on if the person knows how to use them
effectively.
GilraenV: I love this "Gollum-Smeagol" scene
VardaValar1: Every ten minutes would be annoying, aye. : )
Eonwe Valar: Aye, I certainly am not advocating that extreme.
Eonwe Valar: But perhaps, say Aragorn sees Arwen, and we get a glimpse
of his memory of his first sight of her.
VardaValar1: Aye. Dancing in the forest.
VardaValar1: That's visual enough for a movie.
GilraenV: Aye... but how many non-book fans would ocmplain that they
had no idea what was going on, or who this woman was?
Eonwe Valar: Rather than our first encounter of Arwen being some
sword-toting "she-elf."
GilraenV: And no doubt the Aragorn/Eowyn fangirls would be out in
force, as Arwen would apparently do next to nothing bar play the
wilting flower in a couple of scenes
Eonwe Valar: How many non-book fans knew who Gandalf was when he rode
up to the Shire on his wagon?
GilraenV: No idea :-)
Eonwe Valar: Well I would argue that those fangirls have little
understanding of the women in LotR.
ArPharazonV: can you blame them then? :-)
Eonwe Valar: Yes, because if you're going to be a "fan-anything" that
means you should have an understanding of what you're a fan of.
Eonwe Valar: And why would the "Aragorn/Eowyn" fangirls care how Arwen
is? It just means they get to convince themselves even more of how
Eowyn should've got Aragorn.
Eonwe Valar: Cause after all, it's all about whether or not a woman
brandishes a sword.
VardaValar1: One reason so many people were angry about Arwen was that
she was using a sword.
VardaValar1: afking again
VardaValar1: Turns out dinner got turned off early on somehow, and
people are hungry
Eonwe Valar: People hungry? That is madness :}
GilraenV: I'm probably not explaining myself.... Arwen as she would
appear in the movies (as she does appear, mostly) is the stereotypical
defenceless fair maiden. Which is a stereotype that the "modern female"
is often taught to hate
Eonwe Valar: Aye, agreed, which is sad.
Eonwe Valar: Which reminds me of a quote by Frank Burns in the series
"M*A*S*H" : "Individuality is fine, as long as we all do it together."
GilraenV: *laugh*
Eonwe Valar: I would argue that every woman in LotR is the way she is
for an important reason, that the woman are even more varied than the
men, and I am further encouraged day by day to write that paper showing
it.
Eonwe Valar: *woman = women
Eonwe Valar: I am sure that the "modern woman" would find Robert
Jordan's "Wheel of Times" series more to their liking.
Eonwe Valar: *Wheel of Time
GilraenV: and I would definitely agree with you on that.... but the
movies are design to appeal to a wide range, including those who are
not ans of the books.
GilraenV: I'd be willing to wager money that one of the reasons they
gave Glorfindel's scene to Arwen was to make her more 'appealing' to
the audience, as more than a decorative piece.
GilraenV: *designed
VardaValar1: back
GilraenV: and ans = fans
Eonwe Valar: Well, it's sad that she'd be seen as a decorative peice.
GilraenV: compared to Eowyn, without the backstory, she is :-\
VardaValar1: Arwen was given Glorfindel's scene to give her more active
screen time, get her involved in the main story, and because Glorfindel
was not a continuing character, just a walk-on.
GilraenV: and Eowyn, as the other frequently-seen female character, is
the one she is compared to
Eonwe Valar: piece even.
VardaValar1: That's why flashbacks are needed.
VardaValar1: Eowyn spent a lot of time being suicidal.
Eonwe Valar: Galadriel also didn't need the,.. what shall I call
it,...look,.. that they gave her.
GilraenV: I just don't know whether flashbacks would do it justice,
Varda... and Eowyn's suicidal tendancies are not clearly show in the
films, eh?
Eonwe Valar: If I recall Bakshi's version of Galadirel's scene as well
as I hope I do, I may think that's something he managed to do well, and
better than the movie version.
Eonwe Valar: *Galadriel's
GilraenV: I've never seen that version
Eonwe Valar: It's been a while for me. It's not typcially I version I
speak positively of.
Eonwe Valar: It's amusing in its way, but the errors are quite annoying.
ArPharazonV: Bakshi's Galadiel was... interesting indeed...
ArPharazonV: *Galadriel
Eonwe Valar: ok, I'll break out my DVD right now and check the scene
out.
ArPharazonV: sorry, we have someone in our THG guild called Galadiel,
it confuses me from time to time
ArPharazonV: anyway!
ArPharazonV: It's getting late, 4 am
ArPharazonV: I'll save and send, and go to bed
Eonwe Valar: Wow, not hard to find the Galadriel part on the DVD.
Eonwe Valar: afk for a quick sec.
ArPharazonV: saved
Eonwe Valar: back
GilraenV: night, Phar :-)
Eonwe Valar: Not bad voice for Galadriel.
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Phar.
ArPharazonV: ok, it's sent
ArPharazonV: Eonwe, I hope you or Varda manage to save the rest of this
conversation :-)
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
Eonwe Valar: Galadriel's scene in Bakshi's version is better.
VardaValar1: Namarie, Phar :-)
VardaValar1: Thanks
Menelvagor Valar: w00t
Menelvagor Valar: only 15k xp to go for 55 :-D
ArPharazonV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
VardaValar1: nice
Menelvagor Valar: not there yet, but getting close :-)
VardaValar1: Could you refresh my memory on the Galadriel scene? Did
they maybe have Sam?
Eonwe Valar: Bakshi's is better. Not perfect to the books, but
Galadriel reacts more as she does in the book as opposed to,.. well,
how she does in the movie.
Eonwe Valar: When Frodo offers Galadriel the Ring.
Eonwe Valar: "Instead of a Dark Lord you would put up a Queen!" Movie
version of the scene goes downhill from there.
Eonwe Valar: Freaky lighting, possesssed Elf-woman.
GilraenV: *nod*
GilraenV: I'll have to try and find a copy fo that to watch some time
GilraenV: *of
Eonwe Valar: Rankin-Bass Hobbit and RotK are in my opinion the superior
animated Tolkien-based works.
Eonwe Valar: Gandalf's voice for the Rankin-Bass versions was great.
GilraenV: I think I
GilraenV: I've only seen parts of the Rankin-Bass version
Menelvagor Valar: hmm...
Menelvagor Valar: still need 215g.
Eonwe Valar: Great songs in tyhe Rankin-Bass version too :}
Menelvagor Valar: and that within 5 levels.
Eonwe Valar: I notice all my stories on the Stories page now say "The
End" at the end :}
Menelvagor Valar: isn't that rather obvious?
Eonwe Valar: Well, they used to not because I did not put them there :}
Eonwe Valar: Ok, everyone needs to go read the Stories Page now ;}
VardaValar1: Should I remove them?
Eonwe Valar: No, they're fine. Not complaining, just looked strange
with them there after having seen them so many times without.
VardaValar1: I do mess with things. :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Seriously though, everyone needs to go read the Stories
Page :}
Eonwe Valar: If I might recommend a few, this Eonwë guy has a
couple of good ones :}
Eonwe Valar: Other good stories are by Varda and both Irmos :}
Menelvagor Valar: Do not forget one or two by Menelvagor.
Menelvagor Valar: Siobhan and Cassia seem to have pretty good work as
well.
Eonwe Valar: I'm not impressed by Cassia and Siobahn.
Menelvagor Valar: hoe come?
Menelvagor Valar: how*
Eonwe Valar: Their writing does not appeal to me. They seem to me to
impose their own view of Ea instead of embracing Tolkien's.
Eonwe Valar: They don't write within the lore.
Menelvagor Valar: you mean they include things that are outside the
lore, meaning speculation, or which simply do not fit?
Eonwe Valar: Simply do not fit.
Menelvagor Valar: yes, I can see why it would not appeal to you, oh
master of lore.
Eonwe Valar: hehe.
Menelvagor Valar: so, what do you think of my short stories?
Eonwe Valar: They're free to write what they want, I'm free to think of
it as I will.
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, good question. Let me reread your stories to refresh
myself real quick.
Menelvagor Valar: Creation of Glaurung is the better of the two.
Eonwe Valar: Doesn't seem bad.
Eonwe Valar: Fairly enjoyable.
Menelvagor Valar: it was a while ago.
Eonwe Valar: Seems somewhat more like speculation for an Encyclopedia
article, but it's not weighted down like a paper would be.
Eonwe Valar: Overall a good story.
Menelvagor Valar: thank you.
Eonwe Valar: To be honest, I find myself preferring most of the stories
put out by Guild members than the reprints we get from elsewhere. Not
out of any bias towards guild members, I assure you.
Menelvagor Valar: Oh, I know you are generally impartial.
Eonwe Valar: I just think that most of the writers in the guild manage
to hold truer to Tolkien.
Menelvagor Valar: the only thing you're not impartial in is when it
involves other guilds versus the Valar Guild.
Eonwe Valar: generally, heh :}
Eonwe Valar: Well, I am a member of the Valar Guild, and so I prefer
our guild's efforts to be put forward as opposed to other guilds'
efforts. It used to be a more common sentiment.
Menelvagor Valar: well, generally I would agree with you.
Menelvagor Valar: However, there are some times when I can understand
why the sentiment would fade into the background.
VardaValar1: back
VardaValar1: I do put forward our stuff more. But we have not been
producing much to put forward.
Eonwe Valar: The Voyage of Voronwë wasn't really that bad. Remind
me of which mountain Mount Taras was again?
Menelvagor Valar: Welcome back Varda.
VardaValar1: Aiya. I run in and out of this room, checking the chat.
Menelvagor Valar: sending you the same file I sent Eonwe.
Eonwe Valar: afk for a moment.
VardaValar1: I don't generally take files over AIM
VardaValar1: What is it?
Menelvagor Valar: Mount Taras was the southern and westernmost mountain
on the lands of Turgon before he went to Gondolin.
Menelvagor Valar: My latest creation.
VardaValar1: Story?
Menelvagor Valar: a new version of "The Ugly Duckling"
VardaValar1: Why not email it?
Menelvagor Valar: could do that :-)
VardaValar1: Is it just for fun or for the Story Page?
Menelvagor Valar: just that I am used to send stuff by IM when I find
people online :-D
Menelvagor Valar: just for fun.
VardaValar1: Thanks. I'll simply enjoy it : )
Menelvagor Valar: it's not set as a Tolkien'ish atmosphere.
Menelvagor Valar: I just took the story of the ugly duckling and gave
it my own twist, while keeping the original story more or less intact.
Pallando Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Cassia-(TV) and Siobhan-(TV) are Valar Guild members
VardaValar1: Aiya Pallando : )
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya Pallando.
VardaValar1: We were just talking about the Story page : )
VardaValar1: You happen to have some goodies there too. : )
Menelvagor Valar: mail sent :-)
Pallando Valar: totally here on time.
Pallando Valar: one goodie
Eonwe Valar: back.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, to clarify, full guild mmembers, or stories that are
original to our site, which I believe were provided by full members.
Eonwe Valar: Not to say I'm opposed to Tolkien-Onlies and their
stories, to make sure I'm clear.
Eonwe Valar: Not to say that full members all write perfect stories
either, heh :}
Arwen V1: Wow, long meeting =P
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, looking at your story, Pallando, I'd say I haven't
read it because I haven't had time to read a story that long :}
Menelvagor Valar: long meeting?
Menelvagor Valar: nah, meeting is long over.
Menelvagor Valar: we're just coming in and out of aftermeeting.
Eonwe Valar: This is After-meeting
Menelvagor Valar: and timing well this time, as it is not bleeding dry
by coming back just when all others are afk.
Shaggyjoe has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: ding 55 btw.
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
VardaValar1: Aiya
VardaValar1: Grats on 55 :-)
Menelvagor Valar: thanks.
Menelvagor Valar: oh, and I also got exalted with Darnassus this week
:-)
VardaValar1: Woot!
Menelvagor Valar: My Draenei Shaman is very happy with both her horse
and her tiger :-)
Menelvagor Valar: The Elekk is not so happy with them though.
VardaValar1: Thanks for emailing the story, Menel : )
Menelvagor Valar: Okay, time for bed now.
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie!
Menelvagor Valar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well :}
VardaValar1: Namarie belatedly
Eonwe Valar: Once again I encourage everyone to remember we have a
Forum and to put it to use :}
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Arwen V1 has left the room.
GilraenV: Well, chat was nice, but I'm dragging Gwai off for dinner and
to watch a DVD now he's up
GilraenV: Namarie, folks :-)
GilraenV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Namarie
Eonwe Valar: Take care.
VardaValar1: I should hotkey "Belated namarie" : )
Eonwe Valar: hehe
VardaValar1: 1:40am here, 2;40am EDT, think I'd better call it a
morning. : )
VardaValar1: Namarie
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