Valar Guild

October 11, 2015 Sunday Meeting

5pm EDT (UTC/GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (6)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar, Gwaihir Valar, PallandoValar, Varda Valar (presiding)

Before-meeting
    Tail end of the chat marathon.
Meeting begins
Membership:
    End of the chat room marathon today.
Web:
Gaming
Tolkien:
    Discussion topic:  Tolkien Moments concerning interactions of the Valar with the beings of Middle-earth. Discussed: sub-creation, Time, Rings, Bombadil. (Mentions of previous topics pop up during later topics, as this is live chat, not an essay.)
After-meeting:
    Gaming news from Arien and Ar-Pharazon, including the ever-popular flashgaming reviews.
    WoW and Pony cross-over art.
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Before-meeting
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Transcript might start here unless I disconnect ;-)
ArPharazonV: Well
ArPharazonV: I just encountered a big tree in Diablo 3 called "The Old Man".
ArPharazonV: I wonder what that's a reference to...
ArPharazonV: wooh, level 70 wizard at last
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Last day of the marathon! And still a good place to hang out and leave messages. :-)
VardaValar1: If you've seen anyone not yet credited on the News, please let me know.
ArPharazonV: Nobody new since I logged in today.
VardaValar1: Thanks :-)
VardaValar1: Ok, back to work I go. :-)
VardaValar1: *with frequent peeks in here*
VardaValar1: *peek*
VardaValar1: Fangorn waves hello from the phone. :-)
ArPharazonV: *waves*
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: Aiya all :-)
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien :-)
AriehnV: how are thingz?
AriehnV: just back from work/ shoppeing here
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
ArPharazonV: Testing if I'm still here.
ArPharazonV: yay.
ArPharazonV: Never know with this version ;-)
AriehnV: aye you are stil here ^^
AriehnV: what version of Aim do you use?#
ArPharazonV: 5.something. Has better transcripts.
ArPharazonV: But lately it can throw me out of the room without telling me, and the only way I'll know is if I try to type something and it doesn't show up.
AriehnV: ah right
ArPharazonV: So occasionally I'll check.
VardaValar1: Any excuse to get a Phar comment. :-)
ArPharazonV: Even if it's just "check" every half hour? ;-)
VardaValar1: Eowyn, Faramir, and the toddler say hi!
ArPharazonV: Hi!
VardaValar1: Check, please!
VardaValar1: Sauron says hi :-)
ArPharazonV: Also hi!
VardaValar1: Bilbo is camping at RenFaire. How Tolkienesque of him.
VardaValar1: The Fellowship didn't seem to use tents.
VardaValar1: Wonder how they handled rainy sleep times?
VardaValar1: I'm planning on doing Tolkien Moments at the meeting tonight. Love to hear them from other folk. Doing a pre-type now on Notepad. We have a Valar theme, but it can be any nifty moment.
AriehnV: Aiya Sauron :-D
VardaValar1: Muhahahaha!
VardaValar1: /wave
ArPharazonV: Hmm, it must've rained at some point on their journey.
VardaValar1: Absolutely.
ArPharazonV: Shelters of branches and leaves etc? Seems weird for one night.
ArPharazonV: Maybe they just crept under their cloaks.
VardaValar1: JRRT was used to hiking and being in the rain under primitive conditions. It probably seemed obvious to him and he didn't mention it.
AriehnV: uhm .. i saw a horned one snatching a star *races to Vardas rescue"
VardaValar1: *Varda flies to the star's rescue*
VardaValar1: Varda hears most things, just passed on Sauron's comment. :-)
AriehnV: :-)
VardaValar1: The early stories give a literal meaning to "starship".
ArPharazonV: Sounds like proper mythology.
VardaValar1: Agreed. :-)
AriehnV: hey :-) we have a new guildie called Arnor :-)
VardaValar1: Huh?
ArPharazonV: Hah!
AriehnV: i mean in my wow guild Varda
VardaValar1: oh ok. :-)
VardaValar1: The "we" threw me.
AriehnV: he sais its after a real life friend in iceland
VardaValar1: Cool :-)
AriehnV: but i explained the Tolkienesqe side to it ;-)
VardaValar1: Tolkien loved to use the languages from that area of the world. :-)
ArPharazonV: Interesting though. If we could name ourselves after regions and locations instead of characters...
ArPharazonV: I claim Numenor ;-)
VardaValar1: So, the dirt is talking now...
VardaValar1: I typed that while you were typing, not calling you dirt. :-)
ArPharazonV: Hmm, looked suspicious!
VardaValar1: It did!
AriehnV: I already am celestial body i dont need any more *nod*
VardaValar1: Looking at potential Moments, the "his" is Manwe: Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls
VardaValar1: Those are *spirits*. They just appear to be birds to the eyes.
VardaValar1: Also rather like Odin with his two ravens.
ArPharazonV: *check*
VardaValar1: Heya :-)
ArPharazonV: Hey :-)
ArPharazonV: And just started building the level 3 barracks!
VardaValar1: Nice :-)
VardaValar1: Still collecting Moments. Hope the rest of you have some so I don't do all the talking, heh.
ArPharazonV: Can always comment on yours! ;-)
VardaValar1: True. :-)
VardaValar1: Coming up on that time.
ArPharazonV: Check!
VardaValar1: Aiya! Ready for the meeting? :-)
ArPharazonV: Sure! Still doing some stuff in WoW but I can talk :-)
VardaValar1: Sounds good
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VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: A star shines on the hour of our meeting!
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: This is the end of our 18th Anniversary chat marathon and the beginning of the meeting that it ran to. Thank you all so much for being a part of the tradition and of all the fun we have together. :-)
ArPharazonV: Yay!
VardaValar1: These are teh people I show to have been in the marathon. Was anyone left out?
VardaValar1: AriehnV, ArPharazon, Eonwe Valar, Farmer Maggot/thesirg3, Gilraen-(V)/Iyrenth, Gwaihir Valar, Pallando Valar, VardaValar1
ArPharazonV: Not that I recall.
VardaValar1: Thank you. :-)
VardaValar1: You are all given mention in the Anniversary Page:
VardaValar1: http://valarguild.org/varda/NewsArchives/extras/2015/Anniv2015/anniv18th.htm

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: Anything sent in to the Tolkien Site this month may request to be part of the Anniversary proceedings and be added to the Anniversary page as well as the usual publishing, along with a special credit on the entry.
VardaValar1: The Games Site has additions to the News from Eonwe, going into that next.
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VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: http://valarguild.org/eonwe/index.php
VardaValar1: WoW:
VardaValar1: Check out this week's latest hotfixes.
VardaValar1: StarCraft 2:
VardaValar1: It's out: Patch 3.0, and with it comes access to the Legacy of the Void Prologue missions. Enjoy!
VardaValar1: (and for Phar):
VardaValar1: Check out the new short story: Perdition's Crossing.
VardaValar1: See the latest beta balance updates.
VardaValar1: Heroes of the Storm:
VardaValar1: For those who purchase Starcraft 2: Legacy of the Void, you will get Artanis for free! See the announcement for more info.
VardaValar1: Also, new patch introducing a new hero: Lt. Morales.
VardaValar1: LotRO:
ArPharazonV: Yay short story!
VardaValar1: :-)
VardaValar1: The LotRO servers will be down Tuesday October 13th to launch the new in-game store.
VardaValar1: The LOTRO Game Servers will be brought down on Tuesday, October 13th from 8:00 AM - 3:00 PM Eastern (-4 GMT) to launch the new in-game store.
VardaValar1: Gives people time to write something for the Tolkien Site. ;-)
VardaValar1: Wednesdays the adventures of Bingo Boffin continue in episodes with new rewards as we escort him to amazing places beyond his house.
VardaValar1: Any other general gaming news?
VardaValar1: Sauron is back to playing Eve on his repaired new computer.
VardaValar1: Any other comments, suggestions, business old or new?
AriehnV: great to hear and hope fully soon see that Sauron is back online :-)
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VardaValar1: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: Today we'll be bringing up Moments that spoke to us in Tolkien's works and hearing comments on them.
VardaValar1: The theme of our 18th Anniversary was the Valar and their interactions with the rest of the living beings of Arda.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: We are the Valar Guild, therefore Valarites, but we also play characters that live on the Earth (and other places they affect), giving us a lot of room
VardaValar1: Eonwe!
ArPharazonV: Aiya Eonwe!
Eonwe Valar: Heya :}
VardaValar1: Who did you kill to make it here today? So good to see you!
AriehnV: Eonwe :-D
AriehnV: My goodness me there is a stranger *cheers*
Eonwe Valar: A rare chance due to schedule, so I took the chance :}
AriehnV: A chance to prove your quality , hm , :-)?
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: The very highest. :-)
VardaValar1: We were about to move into Tolkien. Did you have anything you wanted to mention before we shifted over?
Eonwe Valar: Since i get to say it in person: Happy 18th Anniversary :}
ArPharazonV: Happy 18th anniversary from me as well!
VardaValar1: Happy 18th Anniversary!
VardaValar1: We'll be starting on the Tolkien Moments next, maybe even related to our anniversary theme, comments welcome.
VardaValar1: the Valar and their interactions with the rest of the living beings of Arda.
VardaValar1: A major interaction would be the original coming into existence of many of the beings of Arda
ArPharazonV: For some of them that's not so much interaction as "Hey, we're alive. How'd we get here?"
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: That's an interaction too. :-)
VardaValar1: This Moment is from "Of the Beginning of Days", Silmarillion
VardaValar1: Valmar is the city of bells of the Valar.

VardaValar1: Before its (Valmar's) western gate there was a green mound, Ezellohar, that is named also Corollairë; and Yavanna hallowed it and she sat there long upon the green grass and sang a song of power, in which was set all her thought of things that grow in the earth.
VardaValar1: (sorry, spaces unexpected :-( )
VardaValar1: But Nienna thought in silence, and watered the mould with tears. In that time the Valar were gathered together to hear the song of Yavanna,
VardaValar1: and they sat silent upon their thrones of council in the Máhanaxar, the Ring of Doom near to the golden gates of Valmar; and Yavanna Kementári sang before them and they watched.
ArPharazonV: Nienna the fountain.
VardaValar1: And as they watched, upon the mound there came forth two slender shoots; and silence was over all the world in that hour, nor was there any other sound save the chanting of Yavanna.
VardaValar1: (interesting, good point, Phar)
VardaValar1: Under her song the saplings grew and became fair and tall, and came to flower; and thus there awoke in the world the Two Trees of Valinor.
VardaValar1: Of all things which Yavanna made they have most renown, and about their fate all the tales of the Elder Days are woven.
VardaValar1: /endquote

AriehnV: ((brb bio))
VardaValar1: Scrolling is a handy thing. :-)
ArPharazonV: And finally the Valar could see what they were looking at again.
VardaValar1: *stops stubbing toes*
VardaValar1: From the same chapter:

VardaValar1: But as the ages drew on to the hour appointed by Ilúvatar for the coming of the Firstborn, Middle-earth lay in a twilight beneath the stars that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labour in Eä.
VardaValar1: And in the darkness Melkor dwelt, and still often walked abroad, in many shapes of power and fear,
VardaValar1: and he wielded cold and fire, from the tops of the mountains to the deep furnaces that are beneath them; and whatsoever was cruel or violent or deadly in those days is laid in his charge.
VardaValar1: /endquote

ArPharazonV: He must've been really bored.
VardaValar1: So we have the making of the Two Trees that are the source of so much light and the making of so many things.
VardaValar1: Probably. :-)
VardaValar1: So the Valar have left Middle-earth. Did they forget about it and ignore it? Surely so? Why no.
VardaValar1: Same chapter:

VardaValar1: But Manwë Súlimo, highest and holiest of the Valar, sat upon the borders of Aman, forsaking not in his thought the Outer Lands. For his throne was set in majesty upon the pinnacle of Taniquetil, the highest of the mountains of the world,
VardaValar1: standing upon the margin of the sea. Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world.
VardaValar1: Thus they brought word to him of well nigh all that passed in Arda; yet some things were hidden even from the eyes of Manwë and the servants of Manwë, for where Melkor sat in his dark thought impenetrable shadows lay.

VardaValar1: Manwë has no thought for his own honour, and is not jealous of his power, but rules all to peace. The Vanyar he loved best of all the Elves, and of him they received song and poetry; for poetry is the delight of Manwë,
VardaValar1: and the song of words is his music. His raiment is blue, and blue is the fire of his eyes, and his sceptre is of sapphire, which the Noldor wrought for him;
VardaValar1: and he was appointed to be the viceregent of Ilúvatar, King of the world of Valar and Elves and Men, and the chief defence against the evil of Melkor.
VardaValar1: /endquote

VardaValar1: If you see a picture of Manwe with that scepter, you know the Noldor are already in Valinor at the time.
VardaValar1: So Manwe was keeping an eye on things. Those hawks and eagles are spirits in bird forms.
VardaValar1: Maiar, one would figure.
ArPharazonV: Interesting how there were familial relations among them, even so.
VardaValar1: Aye, even the Valar had family-style relationships
AriehnV: a phoenix then i would be :-)?
VardaValar1: :-) Spirit of Fire
VardaValar1: So we can figure if Manwe feels this way, he's not going to rein in the secret forays of the other Valar to help Middle-earth.
VardaValar1: Say, Ulmo, in this quote:

VardaValar1: And thus it was by the power of Ulmo that even under the darkness of Melkor life coursed through still by many secret lodes, and the Earth did not die; and to all who were lost in that darkness or wandered far from the light of the Valar the ear of Ulmo was ever open;
VardaValar1: nor has he ever forsaken Middle- earth, and whatsoever may since have befallen of ruin or of change he has not ceased to take thought for it, and will not until the end of days.
VardaValar1: /endquote

ArPharazonV: Manwe's eyes, Ulmo's ears.
VardaValar1: (Varda also heard all the voices. So lots of watching, aye!)
VardaValar1: And Yavanna, no shrinking violet she!

VardaValar1: And in that time of dark Yavanna also was unwilling utterly to forsake the Outer Lands; for all things that grow are dear to her, and she mourned for the works that she had begun in Middle-earth but Melkor had marred.
VardaValar1: Therefore leaving the house of Aulë and the flowering meads of Valinor she would come at times and heal the hurts of Melkor;
VardaValar1: and returning she would ever urge the Valar to that war with his evil dominion that they must surely wage ere the coming of the Firstborn.
VardaValar1: /endquote

VardaValar1: Surely that's all of the slipping back over to Middle-earth, right? Why no.

VardaValar1: And Oromë tamer of beasts would ride too at whiles in the darkness of the unlit forests; as a mighty hunter he came with spear and bow, pursuing to the death the monsters and fell creatures of the kingdom of Melkor,
VardaValar1: and his white horse Nahar shone like silver in the shadows. Then the sleeping earth trembled at the beat of his golden hooves, and in the twilight of the world Oromë would sound the Valaróma his great horn upon the plains of Arda;
VardaValar1: whereat the mountains echoed, and the shadows of evil fled away, and Melkor himself quailed in Utumno, foreboding the wrath to come.
VardaValar1: /endquote

ArPharazonV: So what was Tulkas up to in this time?
VardaValar1: Griping that he wanted to go fight Melkor. :-)
VardaValar1: So, the Valar had left. Someone else is watching...
Eonwe Valar: Sounds likely, hehe.

VardaValar1: For it is said that after the departure of the Valar there was silence, and for an age Ilúvatar sat alone in thought. Then he spoke and said: "Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Quendi and the Atani!
VardaValar1: But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have the greater bliss in the world.
VardaValar1: But to the Atani I will give a new gift." Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life,
VardaValar1: amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and the smallest.
VardaValar1: /endquote

VardaValar1: (The Tulkas bit was actually in there, not in my words, but close.)
VardaValar1: So, that's a pretty solid interaction. Eru's going to put Elves and Man in the world, whether the Valar are present or not.
VardaValar1: Ok, the Valar are definitely planning on returning. But Yavanna's worried about her work.
ArPharazonV: Leaving the Valar to scurry about, trying to make things safe for the Elves.
VardaValar1: Right. Work work.
ArPharazonV: So inconsiderate!
VardaValar1: So Yavanna goes to Manwe to see about protecting her growing things.
VardaValar1: He receives a vision from Eru and tells Yavanna Kementari what he learned.

VardaValar1: And Manwë said, "O Kementári, Eru hath spoken, saying: 'Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake,
VardaValar1: then the thought of Yavanna will wake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence,
VardaValar1: and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young.
VardaValar1: But dost thou not remember, Kementári, that thy thought sang not always alone? Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds?
VardaValar1: That also shall come to be by the heed of Ilúvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West."
VardaValar1: "Of Aulë and Yavanna", Silmarillion
VardaValar1: /endquote

ArPharazonV: So did the Eagles come into play then, in physical form? Or is that the spirits mentioned earlier?
VardaValar1: The spirits take on physical forms.
VardaValar1: These eagles are definitely in physical form, known as the Great Eagles.
ArPharazonV: So the eagles did not go about until this point? Or were they spiritual before?
VardaValar1: Manwe had hawks and eagles looking over Arda while he was on Taniquetil. He's explaining more to Yavanna.
AriehnV: So the Great Eagles mentionened in The Hobbit .. are they Maiar of Eonwe then?
VardaValar1: Eagles are of Manwe, not Eonwe.
AriehnV: I mean Manwe i mean ..
AriehnV: i am silly ^^
ArPharazonV: Dunno, they do seem to be heraldic at times :-)
VardaValar1: By the time of Gwaihir, the Eagles are having young. Gwaihir is born in Middle-earth. Is he still a Maia? Maybe.
VardaValar1: Child of a Maia might be a Maia?
VardaValar1: The Maiar blood affected elven lines, such as from Melian.
ArPharazonV: But could the Maiar actually breed among themselves? I thought that idea was abandoned.
VardaValar1: A child of two Maiar Eagles then, would still be a Maia? They also continued to work for Manwe, one of the definitions.
Eonwe Valar: If they were Maiar, yes. Would they actually be Maiar though? I'm not sure The Great Eagles would be though.
VardaValar1: These particular Maiar Eagles were intended to be part of Middle-earth
VardaValar1: Then they had young. Those, although serving Manwe, may have been considered of Middle-earth instead, just great parentage.
VardaValar1: They were the thought of Manwe at this point, so they were not Maiar.
VardaValar1: They were sub-creations.
VardaValar1: The ents were also, for the same reason.
VardaValar1: They were not made at the same time as the Valar by Eru, as fellow Ainur.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: So no, not really Maiar although with a very similar function.
ArPharazonV: so.. what about the dwarves, then?
VardaValar1: They still served the Valar.
ArPharazonV: seem similar in origin
VardaValar1: The dwarves were the adopted children of Eru.
VardaValar1: They were like the first and second born, not Maia.
Eonwe Valar: Dwarves were the Children of Aulë, and adopted Children of Eru. They were made in impatient anticipation of Eru's Children.
VardaValar1: They were robots of Aule, given life by Eru, then put to sleep on Arda until their time came.
VardaValar1: Seven fathers and their wives, but this is scattered around the boo,
VardaValar1: k.
VardaValar1: Did we get it straight yet? :-)
VardaValar1: Ok, got another batch of living things coming up:
VardaValar1: "Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor", Silmarillion

VardaValar1: And she (Yavanna) set a sleep upon many things that had arisen in the Spring, so that they should not age, but should wait for a time of awakening that yet should be.
VardaValar1: But in the North Melkor built his strength, and he slept not, but watched, and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread.
VardaValar1: And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption;
VardaValar1: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days.
VardaValar1: /endquote

ArPharazonV: We're not happy about those ;-)
VardaValar1: If they hadn't been corrupted, they could have been pretty amazing.
VardaValar1: One more sub-creation coming up. You're lucky I ran out of time so it's pretty short. :-)
VardaValar1: "Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor", Silmarillion

VardaValar1: But at the bidding of Manwë Mandos spoke, and he said: "In this age the Children of Ilúvatar shall come indeed, but they come not yet. Moreover it is doom that the Firstborn shall come in the darkness,
VardaValar1: and shall look first upon the stars. Great light shall be for their waning. To Varda ever shall they call at need."
VardaValar1: Then Varda went forth from the council, and she looked out from the height of Taniquetil, and beheld the darkness of Middle-earth beneath the innumerable stars, faint and far.
VardaValar1: Then she began a great labour, greatest of all the works of the Valar since their coming into Arda. She took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and therewith she made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn;
VardaValar1: where fore she whose name out of the deeps of time and the labours of Ea was Tintallë, the Kindler, was called after by the Elves Elentári, Queen of the Stars.
VardaValar1: /endquote

VardaValar1: So we're back to the light of the Two Trees. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Mandos was cryptic there with that "Great light" bit.
VardaValar1: Namo "Cryptic" Mandos
Eonwe Valar: I bet that guy never loses at poker.
VardaValar1: Probably not :-)
ArPharazonV: I bet he enjoys being cryptic.
ArPharazonV: He's like "Haha, you'll never figure it out and I'll look clever when you do."
VardaValar1: He didn't give them spoilers that they were going to have to make a moon and sun with drivers yet.
VardaValar1: He had to be poked by Manwe to tell that much.
VardaValar1: Want to know more? Check out those tapestries. Oh, you may have to be inside the Halls of Mandos to do that.
VardaValar1: That's all I had prepared. Please feel free to bring in your own Tolkien Moments. :-)

ArPharazonV: Well, there was the bit about Bilbo and Frodo being meant to have the Ring...
VardaValar1: That's a good one! Bet it's on one of those tapestries. :-)

VardaValar1: Since Varda made those first, fainter stars, she had to feel personally responsible for the one source of light that the Elves could have.
VardaValar1: That's why she went immediately out of the council and started working.
VardaValar1: Just as soon as she was done (took quite a while), the Elves awoke. Sounds as if Eru was waiting for that.
ArPharazonV: At least he didn't give her an impossible deadline then.
VardaValar1: She had no clue what the deadline was or if one existed. Had to be a ton of pressure.
VardaValar1: She would just have to hope not to be too late.
Eonwe Valar: A fun thing to think about: Varda was changing the cosmic layout of Ea from Arda. Must've had a pretty good map of everything in her head to do that without bringing too much crashing into eachother and just wrecking the rest of existence.
VardaValar1: Maybe, since the stars were faint, there was a whole lot of room. It also mentions that she gathers up the older stars, moving them to form constellations of greater brightness than they would have had individually.
VardaValar1: And aye, she had to really know what she was about.
ArPharazonV: I wonder how she did that and still make galaxies and all that.
VardaValar1: There went the creatures living on that methane planet, oops.
VardaValar1: The stars would also be gathered into galaxies, maybe same mechanism.
ArPharazonV: Yeah, but it has to work out there, but also look good over here.
ArPharazonV: Must be very impressive.
VardaValar1: Galaxies are generally pointed out by astronomers by saying they are in such and such an area of a constellation (not actually, but just by sight).
ArPharazonV: Well it's the only viewpoint we've got ;-)
VardaValar1: More! Brighter! Jam ''em up!
VardaValar1: Have to wonder if in the time crunch they are less bright and brought together farther out. :-)
Eonwe Valar: She was there when Eru laid out the blueprint for all creation, so she knows the rules for the elements and the equations for using all that to make stars hehe.
VardaValar1: She may have kept going with it, to make it all just as good.
VardaValar1: True.
VardaValar1: The light was her song, and the stars were part of that.
VardaValar1: She may have had only a general guideline and then had to work out the math. May have had a lot of Maiar working away to help with all that!
ArPharazonV: Well they had a long time to work it out.

VardaValar1: Time, another Valar. Hours, Minutes, and Seconds hang out with him. :-)
VardaValar1: *Vala, pardon.
VardaValar1: I need to find that reference again.
ArPharazonV: There, just ask him, Time should be good with deadlines and long processes.
ArPharazonV: That should be in the Book of Lost Tales :-)
VardaValar1: Moved his castle to a location near Taniquetil. ;-)
VardaValar1: (Made that up.)
VardaValar1: ahh, Day, Month, and Year
VardaValar1: the children of Time
ArPharazonV: Each one smaller than the next.
VardaValar1: Time, named Aluin, the oldest of the Ainur
VardaValar1: He is "beyond" and subject to Iluvatar. Suggests not in Arda.
VardaValar1: Day, Month, and Year work for him and return to him after they turn over timing to Manwe
VardaValar1: Day Danuin
VardaValar1: Month Ranuin
VardaValar1: Year Fanuin
ArPharazonV: I sense a theme.
ArPharazonV: So he supplies Arda with time, through his 3 children?
VardaValar1: All is bound in time because of the Music of the Ainur. Arda has an ending.
VardaValar1: BoLT 1 "Hiding of Valinor" near the end of the chapter.
ArPharazonV: So what is Aluin's job exactly?
VardaValar1: Sets up time so things can happen linearly allowing the eventual end of this existence, so a new one can be made in perfect understanding of each other.
ArPharazonV: So he organizes time.
VardaValar1: Aye. They use ropes to do it and hand the ends to Manwe. Interesting reading.
VardaValar1: The three appeared to be three aged men in form
ArPharazonV: Well, time is bound to rub off on you if you string it along.
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Neat story, not as simple as I just made it.
ArPharazonV: I remember reading it once, and being thoroughly confused.
ArPharazonV: *check*
Eonwe Valar: *cashed*
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Or were we doing a mike check? :} *taps mike*
ArPharazonV: Just checking whether I haven't been disconnected from the room yet.
Eonwe Valar: You're still in Valar country :}
VardaValar1: welcome back
ArPharazonV: Was I gone?
VardaValar1: *scrolls.* I see no crash
Eonwe Valar: Not on my screen.
ArPharazonV: so why the welcome back? :-)
VardaValar1: No welcome back for you! ;-)
VardaValar1: sorry, got to reading the chapter.
ArPharazonV: More confusion!
Eonwe Valar: Kobold says, "You no take welcome back?" :}
VardaValar1: Mmmrglllllglmp.
VardaValar1: Did anyone else have a Tolkien Moment or other they wanted to share?
Eonwe Valar: I guess I can throw this one out there:
VardaValar1: *fiddles with one of those hammers that Aule keeps dumping in the shelf on a conveyer belt*
VardaValar1: Go for it. :-)
Eonwe Valar: The Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age":
Eonwe Valar: Discussing when the Elves realized what Sauron was doing, took off their rings, and refused to give them to Sauron:

Eonwe Valar: "But Sauron could not discover them, for they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring." (my emphasis added)

Eonwe Valar: That one word makes it sound like they did use the Rings, but that there was some way that, were they discreet, they could avoid Sauron noticing.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: Have to wonder how they could hide the use. Maybe very small, running alongside a natural happening and pushing it.
ArPharazonV: They did use them for preservation of their lands when possible, I think. They just kept it indoors.
ArPharazonV: Or, yes, just using them to do smaller things.
Eonwe Valar: The problem is that they were able to immediately perceive Sauron's mind when he put on his Ring, and he theirs. He would certainly not have taken his Ring off.
VardaValar1: Aye - seems as if they could not wear the Rings at all without being caught.
Eonwe Valar: Indeed.
VardaValar1: Maybe the Rings had a little power just sitting in a grove, keeping it from withering?
VardaValar1: It's under the flower pot.
ArPharazonV: Just look for the center of the garden.
VardaValar1: We just work really hard on that garden, yep yep.
VardaValar1: Even later after Sauron didn't have the One Ring, Elrond and Galadriel had kingdoms with magical properties. Did he assume it was from the inherent magic of elves?
VardaValar1: Lothlorien especially was of large size and amazing qualities.
Eonwe Valar: Some ambient effect, maybe, for the Great Rings. Though we have no precendence based on those specific rings, the One does have something of an ambient effect without being worn.
ArPharazonV: They might use it a bit more, then. Actually wear it sometimes, doing some yardwork around the place. Not much he could do about that without his own Ring.
ArPharazonV: And that is true, Eonwe.
VardaValar1: He couldn't take them over through the One Ring since he didn't have it, ok.
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
VardaValar1: Sauron may have suspected Lothlorien at least of harboring a Ring of Power, especially with Galadriel there.
Eonwe Valar: The Three were all about preservation, but the servants of Sauron didn't usually get out from those areas alive, so it's not like he had anything terribly solid to go on from his own reports.
VardaValar1: There's that. :-)
Eonwe Valar: I believe it's said as mnuch, that Sauron suspects, but he doesn't know for sure.
VardaValar1: And the elves did have magic of their own without the Rings. Thranduil had magical gates, for instance.
VardaValar1: Galadriel being from Valinor and ancient might be assumed by Sauron to have a great deal of natural power, which she did but not that much.
Eonwe Valar: Given that Gandalf sat in one of his prisons, likely with Narya in his possession, it's reasonable to suspect Sauron even in his own back yard couldn't be sure without the Ring, or without some outward evidence that "Nenya is here."  [Note: Narya is the Ring of Fire, held by Gandalf. Nenya is the Ring of Water, Ring of Adamant held by Galadriel. Hey, they sound similar!]
VardaValar1: Saruman was a Ring-maker, though of lesser power, and his ring attempts may have hidden Nenya's presence if not used?
ArPharazonV: Yet he was still capable of tracking down the Dwarven rings. He did capture Thrain and his ring, after all.
VardaValar1: Keeping the Ring hidden might be why Gandalf could be contained?
VardaValar1: Then there's the power of two Maiar in the area that might hide the Ring's
ArPharazonV: Yes, that is true. The presence of the Ring could have been masked simply by the presence of Gandalf.

VardaValar1: Phar, in that time chapter, Manwe is worried about the ships of the sun and moon zipping about uncontrolled. Time is sent from Eru to help out with the problem. (I'm not finished reading, but that's what it looks like, with side stuff)
ArPharazonV: Ahhh, creating stable orbits. That's a nice application.
VardaValar1: Pretty much, aye. :-)
ArPharazonV: Nice image, though, seeing the sun and moon zip across the sky at random speeds and directions.

Eonwe Valar: As far as the other Rings, consider the Sauron also had historical precedence to work from: he's the one who distributed those rings, so it's a matter of tracing it from those he gave it to.
Eonwe Valar: For the Three, he never saw them, never knew who had them, never knew what was done with them beyond the moment he put his on. From there it was all guesswork and deduction.
ArPharazonV: But if the three Elves could sense him putting his Ring on, wouldn't he have had a good idea of where those three were too, before they could take them off?
Eonwe Valar: "Who: but maybe not "Where".
Eonwe Valar: * "Who"
Eonwe Valar: And those of the Three did change hands.
Eonwe Valar: *two of those Three
VardaValar1: Cirdan to Gandalf, Gil-galad to Elrond
ArPharazonV: Good point.
Eonwe Valar: Gil-galad wouldn't have worn it to the battle at Mordor, for obvious reasons. Elrond wouldn't have brought it either if it'd already been handed off.
Eonwe Valar: In the Third Age, the three safest bets of their locations probably would've been Rivendell, Lothlorien, and the Havens, all things considered. Narya, ironically, might've been the safest, or as Pippin put it in the movie: "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm." :}
Eonwe Valar: *safest = ring in the least danger, as it was not stationed at one of those three locations.
Eonwe Valar: Those were really the three remaining strongholds of the Eldar, all due respect to Thranduil and his people.
ArPharazonV: And only one of those three really saw any combat action in the War of the Ring.
ArPharazonV: Guess it can help to be far away after all.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, due to geographical location.

ArPharazonV: I wonder if Sauron knew about Bombadil, and what his opinion on him was.
ArPharazonV: "Annoying little guy, but doesn't seem to get in my way much, so I'll leave him for now."
Eonwe Valar: Bombadil set his own bounds, and had no interest beyond him. Sauron probably would've left him for last if only for that reason.
VardaValar1: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: If my memory of the Council of ELrond is still good, it seemed that was the concensus he would present at least some effort from Sauron, *perhaps* as much as any one of the Elven kingdoms.
Eonwe Valar: After his fashion, at least, obviously not in raw manpower.
Eonwe Valar: He'd have orcs dancing and singing, lolol.

VardaValar1: (Earlier time story, Melkor causes a quarrel between the Sun and Moon, both go through the Gates of Night, the two gates - other is Morning - are destroyed. Fionwe who loves the Sun - Urwendi/Arien - destroys Arda to try to destroy Melkor.)

VardaValar1: Like that video. :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: What video, dare I ask?

ArPharazonV: Makes me wonder why the Valar could not rebuild the gates. They made the things in the first place, no?

ArPharazonV: And I remember that video. Let's try to find it!
ArPharazonV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZouiWmzWoY this one?
ArPharazonV: Try to pronounce that youtube url....
VardaValar1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmEsCKAb7r0
VardaValar1: heh, you already got it
Eonwe Valar: But either way, whatever delay Bombadil could put up, it's a matter of divide and conquer: cut off each kingdom from the other, and doesn't even have to move in for the immediate win. He can just slowly tighten the noose and squeeze them at that point.
ArPharazonV: Poor Sauron gets so confused.
Eonwe Valar: Lol.
Eonwe Valar: Looks like that was from Battle for Middle-Earth?
VardaValar1: Divide and conquer, something he was working on, aye.
VardaValar1: Aye :-)
VardaValar1: Tom is mentioned right after Gandalf's tale about his betrayal by Saruman, in the Council of Elrond.
VardaValar1: So many stories in that chapter that it needs tabs. Might do that. :-)
ArPharazonV: You could divide that chapter into a dozen more.
VardaValar1: heh
VardaValar1: It's not that Tom has power over the Ring, but that it has no power over him.
VardaValar1: That would most likely be because Tom has no interest in becoming a spreading "greater" power.
ArPharazonV: He'd pass Galadriel's test and not even realize it was one.
VardaValar1: He would find the Ring so uninteresting that he would make an unsafe guardian for it. He would forget or discard it.
VardaValar1: Right :-)
ArPharazonV: In fact, he kinda did.
Eonwe Valar: Why take it all the way to Mount Doom when good ol' Tom could've just made it disappear? :}
VardaValar1: But disappear to where? :-) Magic trick up his sleeve?
ArPharazonV: Same reason you can't just toss it in a drainpipe. It's bound to show up somewhere.
VardaValar1: "Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself. And yet we have seen that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills."
VardaValar1: They also couldn't send it to Tom without being noticed at that point.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.

Eonwe Valar: You know, I was just doing some looking on Youtube for TOm BOmbadil stuff for the SNES version of LotR, and I just noticed that the portraits in that game for the four hobbits look alot like the Bakshi versions of the characters....
ArPharazonV: Well they are rather iconic.
Eonwe Valar: I'd consider the Rankin-Bass versions more iconic personally.
VardaValar1: heh, forgot that only Sam of the Hobbits sneaked into the Council. The others did in the movie to speed it up, I'm sure.
Eonwe Valar: Or at least I like the Rankin-Bass version more.
VardaValar1: :-)
ArPharazonV: Right, sorry. I was mixing them up.
Eonwe Valar: Ah, ok :}
Eonwe Valar: Try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUgBwWUF2XY for the SNES game, pause at 2:43.
Eonwe Valar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c75g7W9uJc for a scene in the Bakshi version, paus at 7 seconds in.
ArPharazonV: Does look similar!
VardaValar1: For such a simple game, the trees are pretty nifty
ArPharazonV: rather reminds me of an old Warcraft, or possibly War Wind. But yeah, the trees look good.
Eonwe Valar: I enjoyed the SNES version. So many fun times playing that one with my brother.
VardaValar1: awww. Hi to Dracxil!
Eonwe Valar: And the soundtrack was enjoyable too.
Eonwe Valar: I've got a review of it on the Games Site, hehehe.
VardaValar1: :-)
Eonwe Valar: I'll pass on the hi :}
VardaValar1: Thanks!
Eonwe Valar: He says hi back :}
VardaValar1: /wave
VardaValar1: Thank you
ArPharazonV: *waves*
Eonwe Valar: Oh, about 3:40ish of that first one he actually holds on the stat screens longer so it's easier to compare each face.
VardaValar1: That helps
VardaValar1: Old Man Willow :-)
ArPharazonV: Who I spotted in D3 earlier today ;-)
VardaValar1: ?
ArPharazonV: big angry tree called The Old Man.
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, there's one thing about Bombadil: it's hard to mess up his wardrobe. If you can't figure out to give him a bright blue jacket and yellow boots, you're not paying attention :}
VardaValar1: ahh
VardaValar1: Right :-)
VardaValar1: ahh, there's Tom
Eonwe Valar: Heh, I'm almost tempted to drag out my SNES now, lol.
VardaValar1: Enjoy your vacation time!
ArPharazonV: Make use of it :-)
VardaValar1: or *drags you to LotRO*
VardaValar1: ;-)
VardaValar1: j/k Have some fun in this rare off-time
VardaValar1: Maybe you can drag Dracxil in for a game too!
VardaValar1: *picks up a hammer from the shelf. Shelf doubles as a conveyer belt*
VardaValar1: *hefts it*
VardaValar1: *Swings overhead*
VardaValar1: *chandelier breaks into masses of stars*
Eonwe Valar: *covers head*
VardaValar1: *sets hammer back in the shelf and chases the stars back into the sky. Goofing off as a chandelier? Heavens!*
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VardaValar1: After-meeting!
Eonwe Valar: Good to see you all :}
VardaValar1: Free chat!
VardaValar1: So good to see you. :-)
ArPharazonV: Just doing one more Hearthstone match and then I'll launch into aftermeeting :-)
VardaValar1: Let us know how the match turned out!
ArPharazonV: my warlock deck at rank 19, so odds are usually in my favor.
VardaValar1: So, we should put our shekels down on you to win. :-)
ArPharazonV: Then again I did lose the last one.
VardaValar1: *takes shekels back*
VardaValar1: *puts half back*
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: I couldn't get into Hearthstone. Not my game type, but not everything can be, so hey, as long as someone enjoys it :}
VardaValar1: Exactly!
ArPharazonV: Did 3 matches for the WoW mount, then I decided I wanted to collect all the cards and level all the heroes.
ArPharazonV: year and a half later, here I am...
Eonwe Valar: I couldn't even make it through for the mount.
AriehnV: hehe
VardaValar1: Spend half your life mining in Eve, but the view is great.
AriehnV: i did it for the mount
AriehnV: cant really get into it either but very occasionally i ll play a game
AriehnV: but .. great to see you around Eonwe :-) and hallo to lurkers and backgrounders and Namarie for now :-)
Eonwe Valar: I did the vs AI stuff to learn, then tried the vs players stuff so I could get the mount, and didn't come anywhere close to winning. I wasn't feeling it, so I wasn't going to subject myself to it.
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien :}
AriehnV: you too when you get to it :-D
AriehnV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Namarie!
VardaValar1: So close
ArPharazonV: Namarie Arien!
ArPharazonV: Less close
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: There we go, quest complete, and another class to 37.
ArPharazonV: Speaking of!
ArPharazonV: My personal gaming!
VardaValar1: Grats!

ArPharazonV: Right! Flashgaming. I'll give you two shorter physics puzzler games I played a bit this week.
ArPharazonV: http://onemorelevel.com/game/catch_the_crowns in this one you have to drop stuff on people and obstacles to claim your stolen crowns back.
ArPharazonV: http://www.kongregate.com/games/turboNuke/flaming-zombooka-2 is a zombie game where you have to kill zombies with a bazooka and other weapons in as few shots as possible. Some planning required!
VardaValar1: Catch 'em with the backblast from the bazoooka!
ArPharazonV: Oh, and one more, a strategy game that has you build ships and conquer the caribbean.
ArPharazonV: http://www.onemorelevel.com/game/battle_sails

ArPharazonV: Now! Blizzard gaming!
ArPharazonV: Hearthstone: Gotten a few more key cards from packs this week, and finally starting to get used to some decks that I've upgraded (in cost, and usually effectiveness) from the basic decks I was using.
ArPharazonV: My new paladin deck is especially doing well.
ArPharazonV: 6 out of 9 classes are 37 now, the other 3 are really close to it as well. Could get it done in an evening or so if I freed up enough time :-) Probably tomorrow.
ArPharazonV: But alas, no new gold cards at 37 yet. Next ones are at 38.
ArPharazonV: Diablo 3: My seasonal wizard is level 70! Unlocking the fourth passive skill slot, which I filled with a life-saving ability, which is starting to get quite useful at these difficulty levels, especially since I plan to try Torment difficulty from now on.
ArPharazonV: Wizard truly is a glass cannon. You can destroy things in heaps, even from afar, but if you're a bit careless and let yourself get boxed in, you're probably going to die.
ArPharazonV: Chapter 3 of the season journey is complete, 2 out of 9 conditions finished for chapter 4. The rest is all Torment difficulty. But with any luck I should soon have finished that chapter and gotten the new pet :-)
ArPharazonV: Oh, and because of the cross-promotion, getting level 70 in a season unlocked a new mount for me to use in....
ArPharazonV: Heroes of the Storm:
ArPharazonV: Still chugging along with my heroes! Getting good gold, but no new levels or heroes yet. Hasn't been necessary. New hero seems nice, but not bought it yet.
VardaValar1: (Tolkien movie moments; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1Kh3EJQrq0
ArPharazonV: Now, recently there was a tournament of sorts, I believe, a championship, and the 5 heroes of the winning team have gone up for sale this week, starting last tuesday.
ArPharazonV: And for each of those heroes, a real-money skin/model is going up for sale in the next week, starting next tuesday.
ArPharazonV: One of these heroes was my favorite hero, Abathur, and the skin that's going on sale is the one I've been waiting for...
ArPharazonV: so this weekend I put up some money in my battle.net balance account, and am planning on buying the Pajamathur skin on tuesday!
ArPharazonV: Going from 10 euros to 5. Not too bad, considering I plan on using it a *lot*.
ArPharazonV: So I'll let you know how that goes at the next meeting :-)
VardaValar1: Enjoy!
ArPharazonV: And now! WoW!
ArPharazonV: Much, much progress and luck this week. Been working on the shipyard, the barracks, rep, raiding... and the latter half of the week has been marked by at least one happy event for me every day :-)
ArPharazonV: On tuesday I got the best raid trinket in the game for my druid! By far the best guardian trinket in the game, to be surpassed only by higher difficulty versions of the same trinket, and it also doubles (because it's the class trinket, switching with each spec you use) as the best cat-trinket for its own difficulty range.
ArPharazonV: *On thursday, sorry.
ArPharazonV: It has unique and fun effects, and is just downright overpowered in certain fights ;-)
ArPharazonV: It drops from the last boss in the raid, Archimonde, and I have been aiming for it ever since we first killed him. And this week, finally won!
ArPharazonV: On Friday:
VardaValar1: yay!
ArPharazonV: Got my special cat druid toy from Firelands at last! Had been killing the bosses of that place once every week for months, perhaps almost half a year.
ArPharazonV: Even saw both mounts drop in that time.
ArPharazonV: But the toy is really rare, it seems!
ArPharazonV: But now that I have it, I can have the fire-form of my catform pretty much all the time, because it lasts through combat, through shapeshifting, has a duration of an hour and a cooldown of 10 minutes.
ArPharazonV: In other words, much better than the old staff-version which you had to keep equipped :-)
ArPharazonV: Saturday: Level 3 shipyard unlocked and built, after finally getting my 25 naval treasure missions completed. Took a lot of time and resources, because I don't have a steady supply of oil yet. But now every ship I build is at least rare quality, and I can have an even larger fleet! Now I can really start optimizing my ships.
ArPharazonV: And sunday: Level 3 barracks, completed early on in this very meeting :-) After focusing on patrol missions for a few weeks, I finally got the 50 required.
ArPharazonV: Now I can customize my garrison with any racial guards I want, and can employ 5 more followers at the same time! That is going to be very useful.
ArPharazonV: And that's my gaming news!

ArPharazonV: Now I did promise you one more thing in the last meeting, and that's the last MLP/D3 (or HotS) match-up art-piece, which came out earlier this week.
ArPharazonV: http://atryl.deviantart.com/art/Twilight-Sparkle-the-Wizard-564806788
ArPharazonV: Full set complete, and visible under the picture :-)
ArPharazonV: And with that, I'm going to dive into Heroes of the Storm myself to finish a quest. Afk-ish for a bit, though I'll still watch the chat ;-)
VardaValar1: Enjoy :-)
VardaValar1: "I am unstoppable"
ArPharazonV: Yep, that's pretty much the glass cannon I mentioned earlier *grin*
VardaValar1: ^^
Eonwe Valar: Afk for a several minutes.
VardaValar1: My computer needs a restart. :-(
VardaValar1 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: *test*
ArPharazonV: right, saving and sending transcript
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