Valar Guild

November 29, 2015 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (UTC/GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (5)
    AnarionV/Anarion House of Elendil, Arien-(Valar)/AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Lenwe-(V)/perseid28, and VardaValar1 (presiding)

Meeting begins
    Discussion topic:  In the books, a character or even a people may have to reach the absolute end of the rope before receiving help. Where do we see this?
    Tolkien chat continues.
    Gaming news from Ar-Pharazon including flashgaming reviews.

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Golden One :-)
perseid28 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Lenwe :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
perseid28: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Looks like that time. Inviting now. Remind folks if you see any that might like to join us.
AnarionV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Anarion :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya
perseid28: Aiya, Anarion!
ArPharazonV: No Arien online in 22 hours.
VardaValar1: ok, thanks.
VardaValar1: Thanksgiving travel and fun is going around too.
ArPharazonV: in the UK? :-)
VardaValar1: For the US area
VardaValar1: Meriadoc was at our house, but is now on the road.
AnarionV: Aiya folks!
VardaValar1: Mae govannen, Anarion. :-)

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: A star shines on the hour of our meeting.

VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: Eru hantale! Thanks to Eru, and Thanksgiving.
VardaValar1: In the US, we have a lot going on thanks to Thanksgiving, so you may see more or less of some of us. :-)
VardaValar1: A second Texas RenFaire group came together despite the cold and intermittent rain, and had fun that warmed us up. Celtic Christmas RenFaire weekend.
VardaValar1: Valarites present were Fangorn, Meriadoc, Sauron, and Varda.
VardaValar1: Any other membership news?
VardaValar1: Hi from Sauron and Fangorn. Bilbo is traveling.

VardaValar1: Web News:
VardaValar1: New art from the Bohemian Weasel-(T). (Others are welcome to send art, poetry, stories, articles, etc too!)
VardaValar1: "A mortal life" Aragorn sees Arwen in the palantir, an attempt by Sauron to demoralize him.
VardaValar1: "Aragorn surveys the battlefield" Aragorn surveys the battlefield at the Pelennor Fields.
VardaValar1: "Mumak" Oliphaunt aka mumak in the the Battle of Pelennor Fields in Gondor.
VardaValar1: ‘Éowyn!’ Éomer finds his sister, Éowyn, by the fallen body of his uncle Théoden.
VardaValar1: "Sam carries Frodo" Sam
VardaValar1: "Glad to be with you" Sam and Frodo
VardaValar1: "At the end of all things" Sam and Frodo
VardaValar1: /end art listing

VardaValar1: Gaming News
VardaValar1: Eonwe has info for us.
VardaValar1: WoW:
VardaValar1: Should Gnomes be Hunters? Blizzard thinks so, because they're finally getting the chance, complete with mecha-pets.
VardaValar1: See the recent hotfixes.
VardaValar1: "Personal gaming: Got to Rank 7 in Brawler's Guild Season 2. I also finished the Campaign for StarCraft 2: Legacy of the Void last week. I won't spoil it for those who haven't, hehe."
VardaValar1: StarCraft 2:
VardaValar1: Now running until December 6th: double experience and hourly tournaments.
VardaValar1: Heroes of the Storm:
VardaValar1: There's a new map available: Towers of Doom.
VardaValar1: Lord of the Rings Online:
VardaValar1: Much questing and crafting is going on in our LotRO branch. :-)
VardaValar1: Any news from those of you playing LotRO?

VardaValar1: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: Before I give a topic, does anyone have a question relating to the books, or a Tolkien Moment?
VardaValar1: A Tolkien Moment is a quote from any of Tolkien's books that stood out for you, and sometimes we discuss it afterwards. Or just go wow.
VardaValar1: It may be a description that was dead on, amazing, or a bit of interaction or straight action, for instance.
VardaValar1: Anyone still here please type Mandos
VardaValar1: Mandos
perseid28: Mandos
ArPharazonV: Mandos

VardaValar1: In the books (we can range over all of them, but just the LotR is quite all right),
VardaValar1: a character or even a people may have to reach the absolute end of the rope before receiving help.
ArPharazonV: Often in the form of an eagle.
VardaValar1: One literal example is Frodo's letting go of the elven rope when it didn't seem long enough and finding ground a short distance away.
VardaValar1: heh. Eagles are a good example, since they are servants of Manwe himself. Between Manwe and Varda, they see and hear pretty much everything happening.
ArPharazonV: never doubt the elvish rope, it's always as long as it needs to be
VardaValar1: But the eagles are sent only in extreme need, when the person or people just can't do it.
VardaValar1: Gandalf simply could not leave the Tower of Orthanc on his own, but was needed elsewhere. Hence, an eagle.
VardaValar1: Good rope, aye, Phar. :-)
VardaValar1: A person might be the one pulling the others out of trouble. Or more than one. Merry and Pippin drew off the orcs so Frodo could escape to the boats with the Ring.
VardaValar1: Boromir added to the decoy effect with his tremendous redemption effort to help the hobbits, easily misinterpreted to seem that one of them surely had the important item.
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Sauron was too much for the Free People to handle, so the Istari were sent to advise and uplift.
VardaValar1: Aiya Sunshine. :-)
AriehnV: Aiya all:-)
AnarionV: Aiya Arien!
VardaValar1: Topic: a character or even a people may have to reach the absolute end of the rope before receiving help. What are examples of this from any of the Tolkien books?
AriehnV: sorry for being late but got caught up in ESO
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Happens.
VardaValar1: Hard to give you a poke there. :-)
AriehnV: yup true ^^
VardaValar1: Continuing with one of the Free People helping the others that needed it, the orcs were closing in on the Fellowship with a Nazgul exhorting them on and about to scout out the location of the Fellowship,
VardaValar1: in the pitch dark. A nazgul had no difficulty with seeing in the darkness.
VardaValar1: Legolas went to a high place, used the bow from Lorien, and killed the fell beast that the nazgul was riding. That forced the nazgul from his body to be sent back to Mordor to be re-embodied/re-clothed.
ArPharazonV: Elves, too overpowered.
VardaValar1: Thus, only one was along.
AnarionV: The example that seems most stand out to me is the struggle of Gondor. Gondor must call for aid! Enter Pippin.
VardaValar1: They could have used him in a number of places in the book to take down the nazgul flying overhead. Would have been handy
ArPharazonV: Like in the marshes.
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar.
perseid28: Sometimes the help seems to come more in the form of "apparently guided chance" (fate?) than a particular person stepping in to offer help. An example is when Frodo has made it all the way to Mt Doom, and at the end his strength of will is finally bested by the Ring's. But Gollum arrives at just the right moment.
AriehnV: hmm must have cheesed Gondor to have to call for help , more specific Denethor
VardaValar1: Aye, Lenwe. The Valar stepped in quietly where they could. "You were meant to find the Ring"
VardaValar1: heh, Denethor probably didn't like it, aye.
ArPharazonV: Bilbo being lost in the tunnels, and just happening to find a ring and a "guide".
VardaValar1: The guide part, good catch!
VardaValar1: Grima throwing the nearest big object to throw at Gandalf, with a side wish to hit Saruman, giving unintentionally a very important palantir to Gandalf (with Pippin's help).
VardaValar1: About Pippin and the beacon in the movie, that was a quick way of showing the beacons and making it more relevant to the characters.
ArPharazonV: In the movie I recall it being a messenger and a red arrow or somesuch?
ArPharazonV: I think Gandalf was saved from his confrontation with the Li- I mean Witch-king by the arrival of the Rohan army.. but that might just be movie.
VardaValar1: The messenger with the red arrow was in the books. Did they mention that in the movies, one of you that saw it more recently?
VardaValar1: Gandalf in the books confronted the Witch-king at the gate, but certainly didn't have his staff broken by a mere nazgul!
ArPharazonV: Right. Details are different :-)
VardaValar1: Aye, the Rohirrim came up right then, preventing the fight.
AnarionV: Good grief, the beacons aren't in teh books
ArPharazonV: And I don't recall the arrow being in the books. It was just a beacon-chain.
AnarionV: Oh, I'm mistaken twice
VardaValar1: No way Gandalf's staff was broken. The only time we see such a thing, Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff at the behest of the Valar.
VardaValar1: The beacons are in the books.
VardaValar1: But Pippin wasn't the cause of the beacons.
AnarionV: Right
VardaValar1: The movies will play with your memories, can be tough to separate.
AnarionV: And yes, gandalf's staff being broken was only in the extended edition, and it doesn't make sense, since it has no ontological inertia even into the next scene
VardaValar1: It was rightly not put in the movie, but should never have been considered in any case.
VardaValar1: The red arrow was in the books.
ArPharazonV: Sorry. I meant the movie.
VardaValar1: No dead body of the messenger in the movie? ok, I need to re-watch. :-)
VardaValar1: How about Tom Bombadil? He came twice when the hobbits were overmatched.
ArPharazonV: Summoned once, though, so that was planned!
AnarionV: Ah, if only people could summon each other by song alone...
VardaValar1: They sure come to concerts. :-)
AriehnV: hmm i remember that Rohan sent the messenger with an arrow .. , i think was red, back to Gondor to tell Denethor that Rohan would come
AriehnV: but the messenger probably was murderered on the way
ArPharazonV: I don't recall that in the movie, anyway.
AriehnV: in the books
VardaValar1: It seemed to me that the Rohirrim found the body of the messenger on the way to Gondor, as you said, but I'm having trouble locating it.
VardaValar1: The Woses aided them on the way, might be in that area of the book. Been digging. :-)
AriehnV: the camp before that before they wanted Merry to stay back?
VardaValar1: Hirgon was the messenger's name. Presented the red arrow and rode back.
AriehnV: i think it was just between that and the meeting with the woses
AriehnV: yep right
VardaValar1: First chapter of the RotK, Pippin tells Beregond that he saw the beacons and errand-riders "last night"
ArPharazonV: So there were beacons.
VardaValar1: RotK "Muster of Rohan" is where the messenger arrives to talk to Theoden.
VardaValar1: They had been talking about the Paths of the Dead.
VardaValar1: p77-78 in my paperback. :-)
VardaValar1: Hirgon says if they take a week as Theoden expects, they will only be there to shoo away the crows.
VardaValar1: Aragorn goes faster, using the Paths of the Dead, the Dead to get the Corsair ships,and travels by ship.
ArPharazonV: It always felt odd to me how all the armies took various amounts of days to travel to Gondor, but they all got there within a short period in the same battle.
ArPharazonV: But there's that fate thing again.
ArPharazonV: Or just really good logistics.
VardaValar1: JRRT worked out the times very carefully, even to rewriting if a phase of the moon was wrong.
VardaValar1: The tale isn't told straightforward in time, keep having to backtrack or run ahead to where someone tells what happened earlier.
VardaValar1: This chapter also has the bit about the foul token of the Lidless Eye, the mark used on the heads thrown into Minas Tirith to add to demoralization.
VardaValar1: We mentioned it last meeting.
VardaValar1: "Siege of Gondor"
VardaValar1: Woses are in "The Ride of the Rohirrim"
VardaValar1: And that is where they found Hirgon, p 120 my book.
VardaValar1: Two dead men and two horses
VardaValar1: In the part just after they leave the Woses. Elfhelm brings the report.
VardaValar1: They could not reach the City and had turned back when they were hit.
ArPharazonV: Life can be tough as a messenger.
ArPharazonV: Fairly short, too.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: The Riders on the road catch the fresh breeze that Legolas caught on the ships. Gives some timing.
ArPharazonV: Depends on how long the breeze takes to get there ;-)
VardaValar1: On to the beacons,
VardaValar1: Pippin saw the beacons on his ride with Gandalf
AriehnV has left the room.
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: The Rohirrim passed all seven beacons on the way
AriehnV: ((sorry folks interweb connection dropped"
VardaValar1: ouch
ArPharazonV: Aiyata
VardaValar1: Apparently the beacons were intended to warn the people of Anorien, since it was part of Gondor. The red arrow was for Rohan after it was made a separate area from Gondor.
VardaValar1: But most likely the Rohirrim would see them too, helpful in case the Red Arrow doesn't make the trip alive with the words of the messenger.
VardaValar1: Ok, we wandered a bit from the original topic, but it was an interesting research check.
ArPharazonV: Always good to have a backup plan.
VardaValar1: Always good to keep the books near when in one of these meetings.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: The Red Arrow allowed details, the beacons said "help!".
VardaValar1: Pippin's ride is in the Two Towers, on Shadowfax with Gandalf, in case the crossed up references were confusing.

VardaValar1: There was much more to be said on the actual topic, but the meeting has probably been long enough already. :-)
VardaValar1: *Cautiously picks up the latest gavel on the shelf, just thumped down from the conveyor belt from Aule's students.*
VardaValar1: *Whannnngoooo!
VardaValar1: *fire shoots up and in a fountain*
VardaValar1: Good thing fire is no big problem for a star maker, but it's still startling.
ArPharazonV: Those must be some interesting students.
VardaValar1: *puts the gavel on the "return" conveyor belt*
VardaValar1: Some turn into people like Feanor. :-)
VardaValar1: or Sauron
VardaValar1: but one hopes most turn out well.

VardaValar1: After-meeting!
VardaValar1: Free chat about anything by any of us. Go for it!
VardaValar1: Can even continue the same subject. *gasp*
ArPharazonV: Well you said you had more examples :-)
AriehnV: I cant really think of any more examples of people unwilling to call for help but eventually did out of need
VardaValar1: Not unwilling to call for help, and may not have called at all. They were just at the end of their ability.
VardaValar1: When they could go no farther on their own, they received help.
ArPharazonV: The timely arrival of the reinforcements to Gondor, not just the Riders of Rohan, but of Aragorn's little army as well, falls under that.
VardaValar1: Elwing was given the form of a bird when she leaped off the cliff with the silmaril.
ArPharazonV: Even though we knew they were coming.
VardaValar1: Hope, aid unlooked for.
VardaValar1: Faramir was an unexpected help, in the books.
VardaValar1: Friends unlooked for, was the quote
VardaValar1: Although Gandalf thought Pippin should never have looked in the palantir, Pippin gave them aid by doing so, and was put in place afterwards where he needed to be to save Faramir.
VardaValar1: Grima accidentally showed them that the link of messaging between Orthanc and Barad-dur was the palantir.
VardaValar1: And Saruman was in major trouble when he couldn't respond
VardaValar1: So Sauron was looking in the wrong place again.
ArPharazonV: So.

VardaValar1: I should probably mention, there's a group now working on all the wikis (maybe ones for Tolkien eventually too) to make them more "politically correct" in their opinions.
ArPharazonV: Hmmm.
ArPharazonV: That doesn't sound very good, if I may be honest.
VardaValar1: Makes me glad we're not a wiki, although we gave it shot once.
VardaValar1: Aye.
ArPharazonV: Well, shall I launch into the personal gaming sectoin?
ArPharazonV: *section
VardaValar1: Interesting article:
VardaValar1: Sure, fire away. :-)
ArPharazonV: Hmm, looking at that article, it doesn't seem very clear, the answer I mean.
ArPharazonV: He might've known, he might've not. It was a good system, regardless of its origin.
ArPharazonV: Anyway. Personal gaming!
VardaValar1: The comments mention the use of other beacons too.
VardaValar1: Go for it. :-)
VardaValar1: (The comments are actually more interesting, with more examples.)

ArPharazonV: I'll give 3 games for Flashgaming.
ArPharazonV: is a new puzzle or iq game, where blocks need to be arranged in a logical pattern. The logic is up to you to figure out.
ArPharazonV: Bit short, but it does get more difficult towards the end. Or to some it might be difficult all the way ;-)
ArPharazonV: Second game is
ArPharazonV: First of an interesting series/franchise, a top-down rpg with an interesting story, and fun combat mechanics, in my opinion. Got into my attention because I didn't have the badge of the day yet when it came up earlier this week ;-)
ArPharazonV: is the third game for this week. I read somewhere that it'll be retired in a few weeks, so I thought I'd check it out, get a few badges before it's gone.
ArPharazonV: A simple multiplayer (but that seems optional) racing game where you can get experience and make your character better when it comes to speed, jumping, etc, as well as collect costume parts.
ArPharazonV: Not sure if there's still time to get very far at this point, but while it exists, check it out!

ArPharazonV: Next up, blizzard gaming!
ArPharazonV: For Starcraft II, I did another level in Heart of the Swarm, the last one before the final world. Not sure when I'll get around to that one, but hopefully soon ;-)
ArPharazonV: Hearthstone: Finally got a class to level 38, the warlock. The other classes are close by.
ArPharazonV: 38's another golden card, so very nice!
ArPharazonV: Heroes of the Storm: Cho'gall acquired! Got a WoW friend to play the required matches with me, who had the hero already; after 2 wins while co-opping the hero, I got one of my own.
ArPharazonV: But you need to be in a party to actually play him, so I'm guessing he won't see too much action.
ArPharazonV: Also tried the new map, towers of doom, mentioned earlier in the gaming news.
ArPharazonV: It's certainly more unique in its approach than any other map so far, because it's the only one where you do not actually need to punch through tiers of towers to reach the core (with unique mechanics per map to help you do so), but the defensive towers only switch sides depending on if they're destroyed by the other side, and the only way to actually win is to attack the core by using towers that spawn in the middle of the map.
ArPharazonV: I'm not sure I like it as much. Seems too focused. You can basically win by ignoring the other side completely and only going for the unique objectives, and there's no way to win without using them.
ArPharazonV: It just doesn't leave much room for improvisation.
ArPharazonV: But it might grow on me :-)
ArPharazonV: WoW: Got a bunch of stuff done that had been waiting for some time.
ArPharazonV: I gathered all the different costumes for Pepe, the little bird you can wear on your head. The only hints you get to where they are, is through riddles that were once posted on the WoW blogs, although of course you can also rely on Wowhead to find their exact locations through the comments.
ArPharazonV: I also explored some little nooks around Draenor, finishing up some smaller unique quests and events, thereby recruiting several missing "flavor" npcs for my garrison, such as an ogre trader, a boar, a raptor, and a small tree.
AriehnV: very nice
ArPharazonV: And finally I started Tanaan, the new zone that came with patch 6.2 so long ago :-)
AriehnV: cool :-) , so much easier to get around there with flying ^^
ArPharazonV: Quests, reputation factions, apexis bonus objectives, everything. The only thing there I'm leaving for now is the pets until I'm done with some of the factions, giving me more daily time to spend on it.
ArPharazonV: Oh, I don't have flying yet. I need the 3 factions to Revered reputation first, and also I have to collect a bunch of treasures.
ArPharazonV: But it's really fun to explore the place on the ground!
AriehnV: yup :-)
AriehnV: anyway its fun to go exploring Irmos realm *yawns*
ArPharazonV: Finally feels like I really started all the new content now. And with the daily oil I'm getting from that place I can finally keep the shipyard running in full instead of just one mission every few days.
AriehnV: got an halfway early shift again tomorrow
ArPharazonV: Okay, namarie, sleep well :-)
AriehnV: Namarie :-)
AriehnV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: So that'll keep me occupied for a while! All the new quests there are fun, but not sure if they'll still be fun after I've done them every day for a few weeks ;-)
ArPharazonV: But at least I made sure to get some smaller projects done before I started it, so I can shift more of my focus there.
ArPharazonV: Oh, and for one bonus thing, I'd like to give a link to some of the druid forms in the next expansion, Legion, that are tied to the class artifacts. For most classes the only thing that changes if the artifact weapon, but for druids it affects the entire form.
ArPharazonV: for guardians, bearforms!
ArPharazonV: Note the particular set of rock-forms, stone bears :-) I plan to collect those and use the grey/white and purple one specifically. Though, depending on what's needed to unlock them, I look forward to getting all the different ones!
ArPharazonV: and here are the cats!
ArPharazonV: Not quite as spectacular in my opinion, but still interesting looks.
ArPharazonV: And that's my news for this week :-)
VardaValar1: Folks, for your enjoyment, here's the beacon section from the movie. Whatever else we may think, this is a pleasure:
VardaValar1: Thank you, Phar! That was a lot of info. :-)
ArPharazonV: no problem!
ArPharazonV: With one of the most memorable tracks of music in the movie, as I recall.
VardaValar1: Agreed
ArPharazonV: Looking at that scene, I realize how easy it must be for some young prankster to set off the beacons in time of peace, rallying an entire army when there's no need of one.
ArPharazonV: Though maybe they'd only take it seriously if they knew there was actually war a-brewing.
VardaValar1: Hmm, have to wonder how easy it would be for a non-hobbit. Bergil, behave now!
ArPharazonV: Right, "afk" a bit for some Heroes of the Storm.
VardaValar1: Happy hunting :-)
ArPharazonV: Thanks :-)
VardaValar1: Namarie!
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
VardaValar1 has left the room.
perseid28 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript