Valar Guild

May 17, 2015 Sunday Meeting

5pm EDT (UTC/GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (4)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, VardaValar1 (presiding)

Meeting begins
    Tolkien Site: new art from the Bohemian Weasel-(T)
    Games Site news for games, see Gaming
    Topic: Starting with the LotR, going on to the H and Sil if we have time. what leadership styles do we see?
    More Tolkien and gaming, including flashgaming, Heroes of the Storm

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Aiya Phar :-)
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: aiya all :-)
VardaValar1: Aiya Sunshine :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Inviting
karakedi25 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis :-)
karakedi25: aiya
VardaValar1: Hello from Gorlim and Fangorn in LotRO
VardaValar1: Hello from Sauron in EVE

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: We continue to be an active kin across several games, to meet here, and still keep up the Tolkien and Games Sites, even after 17 years. May we continue to prosper.
VardaValar1: Web:
AriehnV: aiya from eve too :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya indis!
VardaValar1: ah cool :-)
ArPharazonV: And... Eve?
VardaValar1: Are you in EVE Online right now, Arien?
ArPharazonV: Oh, like that.
VardaValar1: yep, like that. :-)
ArPharazonV: Thought we had a new member called Eve.
AriehnV: aye
VardaValar1: Folks often don't capitalze the whole name
AriehnV: just a sec have to get through low sec then i am here
VardaValar1: Arien, do you have any of Sauron's character names, he asks?
ArPharazonV: Ah, missed the EVE from Sauron. In that case, Aiya Gorlim, Fangorn, Sauron!
VardaValar1: He may be joining you there shortly
VardaValar1: And is Pallando there? Hi to him. :-)

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: "The House of Elrond" Frodo looks out over Rivendell
VardaValar1: "Do you remember when we first met?" Aragorn and Arwen in Rivendell
VardaValar1: "You said you'd bind yourself to me." Aragorn and Arwen in Rivendell
VardaValar1:  "And to that I hold." Arwen

AriehnV: nope have none
VardaValar1: Arien, what's your EVE name?
ArPharazonV: Hmmm, we have seen it on that screenshot.
ArPharazonV: But I can't remember!
VardaValar1: Annatar Valarite is his name
AriehnV: Kirtani Lasarien and Suntarien Kavees
AriehnV: The other account Sularien Firestar and Suntarien Khashour
AriehnV: and .. err let me think Ketana Afuran
ArPharazonV: Sularien Firestar, that was the one we saw.
VardaValar1: Does that one still exist?
AriehnV: yup both accounts are active
VardaValar1: Ok, putting the names on the Membership page to help members find each other.
AriehnV: :-)
AriehnV: i ll add Sauron to contacts
VardaValar1: Try something like Find and type EVE
VardaValar1: yay :-)
VardaValar1: He's adding you also, firing up his computer.
VardaValar1: Hey, we got something accomplished this meeting already. :-)
VardaValar1: Now online
VardaValar1: Celbrian-(V) on EVE has Seraphima Laytose, Leelan Argeneau
VardaValar1: Celebrian, pardon
VardaValar1: I picked her names up from Eonwe's Gaming site
VardaValar1: Elrond-(V) is Shang Ty
VardaValar1: Since we're in Gaming,
VardaValar1: Gaming News:
VardaValar1: EVE Online
Valarite names above, on the Membership page, and some that emailed on the Games Site.
VardaValar1: We hope to update the Games Site also, easy to find there.
VardaValar1: WoW:
VardaValar1: A new blog is up: Mastering the Many Mounts.
VardaValar1: The PTR patch notes have been updated again.
VardaValar1: Recent hotfixes.
ArPharazonV: Summary: Stables, rare worldbosses, garrison invasions and reputation.
VardaValar1: Nice summary!
VardaValar1: StarCraft 2:
VardaValar1: Patch 2.2.10 is out.
VardaValar1: We got a Legacy of the Void Balance Update preview and then the Balance Update itself.
VardaValar1: StarCraft/BroodWar:
played this last week by Fangorn, Varda, and Sauron
VardaValar1: Diablo 3:
VardaValar1: Blizzard suggests that this third Anniversary of Diablo 3, we not bull-lieve everything we hear. See their blog Debunking the Cowspiracy. Good luck.
VardaValar1: Heroes of the Storm:
VardaValar1:Check out the closed beta patch notes and the Performance Notification Updates.
VardaValar1: Hearthstone:
VardaValar1: Patch notes.
ArPharazonV: Well, I'd just like to add that for Hearthstone, the new patch includes a cardback related to Heroes of the Storm
ArPharazonV: And vice versa: It seems you get a Storm reward for winning in Hearthstone.
VardaValar1: Nice crossing
VardaValar1: LotRO:
VardaValar1: Game and account servers will be down Monday May 18th 3:00am to 2:00pm for maintenance.

ArPharazonV: The cardback is related to a promotion event, so you might want to check out HotStorm (okay, that abbrevation doesn't work) soonishly.
ArPharazonV: *lets Varda continue*
VardaValar1: o pardon.

VardaValar1: Any other LotRO comments?
VardaValar1: Gorlim and I have been doing the new Ashes raids.
VardaValar1: We also jump in with groups for them. I meant to write instances, pardon.
VardaValar1: This is the new instance cluster that came out with the latest update.
VardaValar1: Any other gaming news?
karakedi25: LotRO: I've been with a group that's attempting to master Dome of Stars tier 2. It's very tough, but we're learning how it works. We got through the first boss and are approaching the second. We ran out of time, but we plan to continue.
VardaValar1: Tier 3 should be a nightmare. Hoping Tier 2 knowledge will help with that.
VardaValar1: Is there a minimum morale or other suggestion for tier 2 you'd like to make?
karakedi25: there is no t3. There's t2 challenge, which is usually an additional requirement
VardaValar1: For folks who just want to try the instances for a little familarity, it can be set as low as level 50.
VardaValar1: Ahh, thanks.
karakedi25: max out your morale if you can
VardaValar1: Sounds as if the glass cannons are in trouble.
VardaValar1: Mitigations, resistance.
karakedi25: glass cannons aka squishies should aim for 20K morale (which I don't have yet...I'm at 18.5K and need morale essences).
VardaValar1: Thanks for the 20K tip
karakedi25: 30K for med. armor, 40 for heavy
VardaValar1: Thank you, Indis. Good to know.
AriehnV: how do these essences work by the way? i ve come across one or two but i ve got no clue what to do with them
VardaValar1: Right now essences are being tried out with level 100.
VardaValar1: Sorry, imbuement
VardaValar1: Essences are used in slotted armor and jewelry
VardaValar1: Removing them can only be done by a special scroll
VardaValar1: Essences can be crafted to go from major to greater or supreme
ArPharazonV: *tries to compare to WoW* like gems?
VardaValar1: Slotted items are drops, some are from epic quests.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: We're hoping that smaller essences will be able to be worked up, maybe like settings or the essence recipes, for later.
VardaValar1: So some of us are stashing smaller essences on mules, just in case.
AriehnV: alll right , I understand
VardaValar1: The system is still in the process of being tried out on live servers.
VardaValar1: Imbuement is only level 100, for instance, but they hope it will be used for lower levels after working out the bugs.
VardaValar1: Essences are drops and quest rewards
VardaValar1: They can be mailed, put on the AH
VardaValar1: Any other questions or comments?

VardaValar1: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: Nar-(V) has been attending a medieval conference that includes Tolkien.
VardaValar1: He's hearing quite a few professors lecture on their papers on the subject.

VardaValar1: The Italian Ringers are putting on a convention for Tolkien in Milan, Italy early December of this year.
VardaValar1: If anyone has a Tolkien subject, please let me know. I have one if you don't. :-)

VardaValar1: Starting with the LotR, going on to the H and Sil if we have time. what leadership styles do we see?
VardaValar1: In the early LotR, both Frodo and Merry show leadership for the hobbit group.
ArPharazonV: Mostly in matters of organization and planning.
VardaValar1: Frodo also in the reason, drive.
VardaValar1: Merry also in logistics.
VardaValar1: Both are pretty laid back with the others, treating them as friends. Frodo is close-mouthed and the others have to learn the reasons with conspiracy, observation, and guesswork.
ArPharazonV: And are not punished for the conspiracy, as some leaders might :-)
ArPharazonV: *might do?
VardaValar1: Aye. Frodo sees behind the conspiracty to the why and the caring, that it's helping him.
AriehnV: he understands why it was done Phari :-)
ArPharazonV: That helps of course.
AriehnV: They kept it secret because they thought he might dissuade them
VardaValar1: Right, that's a major part of Frodo's style. He understands, looks into hearts.
ArPharazonV: It's the type of leadership that regards others as equals, really. Which appears to be the main theme among hobbits.
VardaValar1: True. He's also protective of them, more than they want.
VardaValar1: Frodo does not quite treat them as equals, or he would not keep the secrets.
VardaValar1: He's not treating them as equals by being protective.
ArPharazonV: That is true.
VardaValar1: They pick on him so that they become more equal, but he doesn't really mind.
VardaValar1: They have to want it.
VardaValar1: Aragorn meets the hobbits at Bree and his position as guide seems to change to leadership over time.
VardaValar1: Why does it shift?
ArPharazonV: Same reason he was effective as a guide. He knows the land, he knows the enemies, he knows the risks and dangers.
VardaValar1: True
VardaValar1: He also starts out already knowing Frodo's secrets, and more.
VardaValar1: Only Frodo has the ability to carry the Ring for a long time, and Aragorn is fine with that too.
VardaValar1: He doesn't try to take the Ring away.
ArPharazonV: Because he knows the risks and dangers!
VardaValar1: The group was planning on Gandalf's leadership, but found they had to handle things themselves. This is Valaresque unintentionally on Gandalf's part, as the free people have to learn to fend for themselves.
VardaValar1: And has the ability to resist in his character, aye.
VardaValar1: Leadership changed at Rivendell. The group dissolved partly and reformed.
VardaValar1: Who was leader then?
ArPharazonV: Typical Gandalf. When he doesn't need to leave on another assignment, leaving the party to its own devices (both in the Hobbit and early LotR), and actually tries to stick around, he dies.
VardaValar1: heh
VardaValar1: He was stuck with coming back though. :-)
ArPharazonV: Gandalf was defacto leader from Rivendell onwards, I think? But he put some decisions on Frodo. Never knew what the point of that was. Making the little guy feel in charge?
VardaValar1: Gandalf's job as an Istar was to advise, not lead. They were supposed to teach the free people to lead themselves versus evils.
VardaValar1: That's why the Istari were sent as old men with part of their power and memory removed.
ArPharazonV: Ah, that might be it. He's not supposed to lead, so he lets the hobbit lead while he and Aragorn really have the know-how.
VardaValar1: Aragorn also showed a great deal of leadership of the Fellowship. Especially when Gandalf was taken away. He deferred a great deal to Gandalf, whom he knew to be a Maia.
VardaValar1: Legolas apparently also was aware.
VardaValar1: Was anyone else?
VardaValar1: They knew he was one of the Wise, and a Wizard. But maybe not more than that.
ArPharazonV: That Gandalf was a maia? Frodo might have suspected. Galadriel knew, but I assume you're talking about the Fellowship.
VardaValar1: Aye, the Fellowship.
VardaValar1: Frodo probably figured it out or could even see it with the Ring.
ArPharazonV: For one thing, the Ring might have made it more obvious to Frodo. Glowy aura, ethereal shimmer, that sort of thing.
ArPharazonV: Yes :-)
VardaValar1: Agreed.
ArPharazonV: Not sure if Gimli really cared to know.
VardaValar1: Aule? Big deal. Not-Aule? Not a big deal to a dwarf. :-)
VardaValar1: They usually called him Mahal, trivia bit that you all already know.
ArPharazonV: hehe
ArPharazonV: I would not have gotten that in a trivia quiz, but it does sound familiar.
VardaValar1: Olorin in the West (Valinor), Mithrandir to the elves, Gandalf to (did he say the north or man?)
ArPharazonV: Pretty sure that was north.
VardaValar1: Probably includes Gandalf to the dwarves then.
ArPharazonV: Did he mention anything for the south?
ArPharazonV: Stormcrow? :-)
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: He was Mithrandir in Gondor because of their elvish studies
ArPharazonV: That is true.
VardaValar1: Lathspell "Ill News" as long as we're using Grima's names. :-)
VardaValar1: Tharkun by the dwarves.
ArPharazonV: Oh, there we go.
VardaValar1: Grey Wanderer, Grey Pilgrim in Westron
VardaValar1: Incanus by the Haradrim. Guess he scared them.
ArPharazonV: Tharkun by the dwarves? I remember Saruman being named Sharku by the orcs. Sounds vaguely similar.
VardaValar1: Harsh sounds, aye.
VardaValar1: Gandalf Greyhame for the Rohirrim
VardaValar1: Ok, I digressed. :-)
ArPharazonV: Good to have a complete list! I did remember Grey Wanderer and Greyhame, but wasn't sure about the latter and didn't know if the former was actually his official name somewhere.
VardaValar1: So we have Aragorn and Frodo given a major voice by the real leader, Gandalf, until after the Balrog.
VardaValar1: Grey Fool to Denethor, who didn't like his friendship with his rival Thorongil (Aragorn).
VardaValar1: After the Balrog, Aragorn led until the group broke up with Boromir's being overcome by the Ring.
VardaValar1: Frodo took leadership of the Ring quest, concerned that the others would fall too.
VardaValar1: The other hobbits almost went with him, but Merry and Pippin lured off the orcs so Frodo could escape.
VardaValar1: Sam couldn't be shaken, despite what the movie might say. :-)
ArPharazonV: Sam, of course, being helpfulness incarnate, was no threat to Frodo's possession of the Ring or his leadership.
ArPharazonV: Just happy being a servant.
VardaValar1: Aye, and his mindset made it easier for him to turn over to Frodo.
VardaValar1: He was JRRT's tribute to the yeomen of the officers in the Great War. Incredibly brave and self-sacrificing and loyal.
VardaValar1: Gollum was added to Frodo's party and also had to accept Frodo as leader. He swore on the Ring.
VardaValar1: Frodo pulled Sting on him. He knew when not to be just gently wording his statements.
karakedi25: Incanus in the south
VardaValar1: Aye, Incanus in the south. That's the quote, thanks. :-)
karakedi25: Tharkun by the dwarves
ArPharazonV: Anything in the east?
VardaValar1: Might not be a nice word. ;-)
karakedi25: not that I know of
karakedi25: Tharkun probably meant staff-one.
VardaValar1: Possible. Gandalf was wand elf
karakedi25: lots of information there
ArPharazonV: Staff-man.
ArPharazonV: To go together with Wand-elf.
VardaValar1: or a quick list:
ArPharazonV: White Rider! Well that was a recent one.
VardaValar1: From there, you can pop back to a list of articles both short and long.
VardaValar1: The short articles are on the same page, longer ones with their own pages.
VardaValar1: The images section needs updated with our own image collection.
VardaValar1: Good to peruse the site now and then to see where updates are needed. :-)
VardaValar1: The group split up and obviously at this point Aragorn begins to take over leadership.
VardaValar1: He has some trouble giving in to Theoden with his disarm requirement.
VardaValar1: What about Theoden's leadership?
karakedi25: Once Gandalf woke him up, it was culturally appropriate.
ArPharazonV: Bit of a rough patch until that moment.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: Theoden's leadership contrast with Denethor's?
AriehnV: Theoden was just , he offered offenders a second chance .. see Grima
VardaValar1: For one, he hopped on a horse at the head of his people and led from in front. Got him killed gloriously.
VardaValar1: True
ArPharazonV: Well, Theoden was more trusting of outsiders, and also took charge of things personally, such as in battle. Denethor mostly stayed in his chambers and ordered others to do the fighting.
VardaValar1: Denethor also scouted at a distance using the palantir secretly. Hard to do in a camp.
AriehnV: while Denethor sought to punish "Traitors" straight away even if one should be his son ..he was more self centred , a bit like a dictrator
AriehnV: dictator
VardaValar1: Do this, do that, or else.
ArPharazonV: He ruled by fear more than by love.
VardaValar1: A man who handles horses all the time may have more of an idea how to work with people who didn't want to say anything to the king.
karakedi25: Denethor was paranoid.
VardaValar1: True
VardaValar1: Sauron helped push that paraonoia by picking what he saw in the palantir.
karakedi25: Theoden may not have been as learned as Denethor, but he was psychologically more stable.
VardaValar1: Denethor was afraid of losing his position. At first to Thorongil, later to Gandalf's Aragorn. Did he know it was the same man?
karakedi25: Possibly not, because he doesn't seem to have let sauron know
VardaValar1: Aye, after being freed of Saruman's influence, Theoden's own strong personality was able to rebound. He already had shown that he cared about his sister's children.
VardaValar1: Good point
ArPharazonV: After what Saruman did to him, "psychologically stable" is an interesting descriptive.
VardaValar1: He might not intend to let Sauron know, but it could easily have slipped.
VardaValar1: If Theoden had not had a very strong personality to start, he could have been permanently damaged. It may have left him overprotective?
karakedi25: After what Gandalf did for him, psych. stable is not inaccurate. He certainly didn't seem to suffer from PTSD.
VardaValar1: He understood the concept of the second chance very well, as Indis mentioned. Denethor did not.
ArPharazonV: Agreed.
VardaValar1: There's that. Gandalf would be an excellent mind doctor, as that was a lot of what he did for the elves as Olorin.
VardaValar1: if the elves listened to his invisible whisperings, he gave them hope.
VardaValar1: He built up people/elves/etc. all the time. He was perfect to help Denethor.
VardaValar1: How about Faramir's leadership?
VardaValar1: He led the rangers of the south, as Aragorn did in the north, as well as being son of the Steward.
VardaValar1: What was Faramir's style?
karakedi25: firm but fair
VardaValar1: True
VardaValar1: Like his father he could see into the minds of men (understand), but it moved him to compassion rather than domination.
VardaValar1: He could understand those whom he led.
VardaValar1: Eomer also was a leader. What was his leadership like?
ArPharazonV: Quite similar to Faramir, really. Good leader in the field, and capable of standing up to or disobeying his "boss" when needed.
VardaValar1: True. With the addition of speed and distance thanks to horses.
VardaValar1: Faramir worked in hard to travel forests and mountains.
VardaValar1: brb oven beeping
VardaValar1: back
VardaValar1: We see brief glimpses of other leaders as well, such as Forlong the Fat, quite popular, came to the aid of Minas Tirith himself with what men he could bring.
VardaValar1: Prince Imrahil, who also had healing knowledge.
ArPharazonV: If they're fat, it usually doesn't say much good about their field leadership.
VardaValar1: Another mention about Faramir, also well-loved by his men. Beregond and others show this.
VardaValar1: He [Forlong] did come to the battle, he did bring men, they were willing to follow him, but perhaps his death was partly due to being out of shape. Certainly he had courage to do what he did.
ArPharazonV: That is true.
ArPharazonV: He was big on courage.
VardaValar1: Apparently Forlong had been doing more of the domestic style of leadership. And he had hope of being able to follow those who were more used to the field.
VardaValar1: Going to call it here, but we can discuss more if we have more thoughts during after-meeting. :-)
VardaValar1: *picks up a hefty hammer with a leather strap*
VardaValar1: *whonk!*
karakedi25: Yes, I need to log out...good discussion
VardaValar1: *yep, hefty all right*
karakedi25: namarie
VardaValar1: Glad you could join in!
VardaValar1: Namarie :-)
ArPharazonV: namarie!
karakedi25: orcs and trolls killed, so I could come in :-)
karakedi25 has left the room.
VardaValar1: Yay :-)

VardaValar1: After-meeting
VardaValar1: I need to handle dinner, but will come back and forth and scroll.
ArPharazonV: I'll start on my person gaming news then.
ArPharazonV: *personal
VardaValar1: :-)
VardaValar1: (Didn't get around to Sauron's and Saruman's leadership, maybe another day.)
ArPharazonV: Saruman actually got a bit more respect from his subjects than Sauron did, I think. Sauron just ruled by fear and being an evil eye that can watch you sleep...

ArPharazonV: Allright, for flashgaming I'll give you a game inspired by the Portal series, about a green blob that you have to platform (is that a verb now?) and teleport through a series of lab-tests.
ArPharazonV: Now, let's see.
ArPharazonV: Diablo 3: Only one set of bounties done with the season monk, got him from level 19 to level.. 22 or 23? Something. I've upped the difficulty for more experience, but it's still slow going. At least he's still killing things fast.
ArPharazonV: Hearthstone: Finished the Blackrock Mountain adventure at last. Got most of the last fights in one attempt, which is either quite lucky, or maybe I'm simply getting better at anticipating the AI :-)
ArPharazonV: Last boss' mechanics caught me by surprised, but I'll not spoil it; let's just say that I won the fight with one health left and a barely exhausted deck of cards.
ArPharazonV: *surprise
ArPharazonV: Let's just say I won't be trying heroic for some time, and then only with highly specialized card-decks!
ArPharazonV: WoW: Still struggling with heroic Blackhand, but we have reached phase 3 a few times now; best attempt: 17%. I also finished the quest that grants immediate access to him instead of having to clear the entire raid instance first.

AriehnV: I wonder whether Forlong was like a Scottish Clan chief :-) liked feasting .. the more people you can entertain the higher the prestige and reputation gain .. hence the constant need for cattle and cattle thefts in the highlands by the way ^^, but they also were and are very curagi
AriehnV: courageous in battle and good in the fields
AriehnV: in the field .. i .. e. combat

ArPharazonV: We had no luck with new pets in the old raids, but I did get 2 new pets from rare mobs while questing, one from a man-eating plant in Gorgrond that dropped a tiny version of itself, and one from a demon in southwest Shadowmoon Valley.

ArPharazonV: Could be! Certainly has the name for it.

ArPharazonV: And the most interesting news perhaps, I started playing Heroes of the Storm!
ArPharazonV: Only done some of the tutorial thingies so far, but it looks pretty good, and I'm looking forward to levelling to 12 for the Hearthstone card-back, and also increasing my collection and levelling in Heroes of the Storm itself.
ArPharazonV: Not yet sure what hero I'm going to specialize in. Abathur looks interesting, but requires a lot of gold to unlock and seems very difficult to play.
ArPharazonV: Bit annoying, though, that Heroes of the Storm and Heart of the Swarm have the same acronyms, HotS. I could call them HotSwarm and HotStorm but that just sounds weird, so I think I'll just stick with Swarm and Storm :-)
ArPharazonV: Anyway, that's it from me!
AriehnV: Ah right :-)
AriehnV: sounds fun and many things
AriehnV: it is good night from me for now .. work tomorrow
AriehnV: Namarie for now !
AriehnV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
VardaValar1: Belated namarie :-)
VardaValar1: You're still here, wow. :-)
ArPharazonV: Just did some Hearthstone. Only 2 wins, but eh, didn't need to finish a quest today, got an empty slot for tomorrow.
VardaValar1: neat
VardaValar1: Think I'll jump into LotRO at last. :-)
ArPharazonV: Have fun!
VardaValar1: You too. :-)
ArPharazonV: Thanks :-)
ArPharazonV: Saving and sending transcript.