Valar Guild

July 27, 2014 Sunday Meeting

5pm EDT (UTC/GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (4)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, VardaValar1 (presiding)

Meeting begins
    Tolkien course being taken by some members.
    New art by The Bohemian Weasel-(T)
    PJ's Facebook - win a trip to Wellington
    LARP report by Arien
    Discussion: Why elves went to Valinor.
    Lego Smaug and other fun shared surfing.

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Aiya Golden One :-)
ArPharazonV: Arien poked.
VardaValar1: Thanks :-)
karakedi25 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis :-)
karakedi25: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: evenink
VardaValar1: Aiya Sunshine :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya! :-)
karakedi25: aiya
AriehnV: Aiya :-) how are you all?
VardaValar1: Good, especially now that the sun's out.
ArPharazonV: haha
karakedi25: ok
AriehnV: bloody stunners .. i hate em ^^
AriehnV: aye ... thats good to here ^^ yo sun is hiding behind clouds for a hange but .. it was very hot here this week
VardaValar1: oops, it's that time of day. Got side-tracked (not hard).
AriehnV: hehe with what?
VardaValar1: Tolkien chat with Indis, in-game just reached Elrond and about to log out.

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: Indis got me involved with an interesting online Tolkien and gaming class - hope we can bring you fun stuff from that.
karakedi25: it's an online (free) class
VardaValar1: Free, just my price.
karakedi25: And it's quite entertaining. It has an optional component that includes playing LotRO.
AriehnV: gaming class what is that?
karakedi25: Under the auspices of Vanderbilt University, so quite respectable
VardaValar1: Coursera is the name of the outfit.
AriehnV: does that have any qualification?
karakedi25: nope
karakedi25: The name of the course is Online Games: Literature, New Media, and Narrative
VardaValar1: Not sure if you can see this link, but here it is:
ArPharazonV: Could be interesting, if you kept us informed of things you learn :-)
VardaValar1: We hope to pass some of the good stuff to you during the Tolkien chat. :-)

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: New art up
VardaValar1: from the Bohemian Weasel-(T).
VardaValar1: I was hoping to have more up before meeting time, but we have this one at least.
karakedi25: No, Phar, it's a secret!
ArPharazonV: Pff.
karakedi25: *grin*
VardaValar1: "Sam, Wood-elves!"
karakedi25: That's very well done!
VardaValar1: It's from the movie, but still cool. :-)
VardaValar1: You can find it again from the start of her cave or at "Sam":
ArPharazonV: Well, yes. I think in the book they were hiding from a Black Rider at the time.
VardaValar1: Easy to lose a lot of time just looking through her stuff.
AriehnV: oh thats nice this one
karakedi25: afk for a couple of mins
VardaValar1: Aye, the Black Rider had just disappeared oddly (left), and it was because he heard the elves coming, heard their singing.
VardaValar1: Any other news from the rest of you?
VardaValar1: Arien, you had a big experience last weekend. Should we wait for Tolkien for the LARP tale?
VardaValar1: Maybe in gaming. :-)

VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: Non-WoW, non-LotRO for this past week.
VardaValar1: Phar, did you have some news?
ArPharazonV: Oh, sure. Number of things. Hang on.
VardaValar1: Hearthstone's Curse of Naxxramas has been released. :-)
ArPharazonV: Hearthstone: First wing of Naxxramas was released last week. The Arachnid quarter. 3 bosses, 2 class challenges, 6 new cards. Pretty fun!
VardaValar1: Nice! Thanks, Phar.
ArPharazonV: Didn't take me long to defeat normal mode and the class challenges, but I'm not gonna try heroic mode yet until I've got some more (rarer) cards. Even though there's already basic decks out there on the internet to defeat it, but still seems rather luckbased that way :-)
karakedi25: back
ArPharazonV: But I think there'll always be a good factor of luck in it.
ArPharazonV: Class challenges involve pre-set decks, which in fact include some cards from Naxxramas, so it's a good way to learn how to use some of them, too.
ArPharazonV: Next week next wing! I'll find out quick which wing that is.
karakedi25: [My bad cat just knocked over a bunch of things trying to get at an empty food container. He knows he's in trouble.]
VardaValar1: Uh oh!
karakedi25: [Now he's pretending nothing happened. Cats!]
ArPharazonV: Seems to be the Plague quarter next, with Loatheb as end-boss. The Loatheb card is one of the most discussed of the new cards, so it'll be interesting to see it entering the field.

ArPharazonV: Next up.. Starcraft II!
ArPharazonV: Fourth Anniversary week this coming week, with party hats for your workers in-game, apparently, and 3 new portraits to earn by gaming during the week. Gotta collect em all!

ArPharazonV: And for Flashgaming I'll give you...

VardaValar1: SC2 celebration for the anniversary is at

ArPharazonV: Clockwords: Prelude is about using a machine to shoot spiders, and you power it by "talking to it", in other words, typing words. Interesting gametype.
ArPharazonV: Right, thanks.
ArPharazonV: Forgot to link that ;-)
VardaValar1: Word bullets, our sort of gaming. : )
ArPharazonV: You get random bonus letters during the levels, which will then, show up in a big reservoir which you can customize to get letters that'll show up during the levels and give extra points, as in attack power.
ArPharazonV: It sounds complicated, and to be honest it seemed complicated when I first tried it like a year or so ago, but since it showed up again this week I decided to try it again and it's not as tough as I thought :-)
ArPharazonV: Gotta know your English words, though, and the longer the better!
ArPharazonV: Though of course, as with all wordgames, there might be words that are not included in its dictionary. But just gotta work around that.
ArPharazonV: And I think that'll be it for my gaming this week!
VardaValar1: Thanks Phar

VardaValar1: Also in StarCraft 2, they worked on balance issues:
VardaValar1: As expected, that always creates "discussion".

VardaValar1: WoW:
VardaValar1: New art before and after for the new Tauren female model:
ArPharazonV: Oh, one more thing.
karakedi25: balance issues are the real neverending story

ArPharazonV: Naxxramas trailer:
VardaValar1: Thanks :-)

VardaValar1: Too true, Indis.
VardaValar1: WoW continued: new update to the beta patch notes for Warlords of Draenor:
VardaValar1: That news is courtesy of Eonwe's Games Site for the Valar.
VardaValar1: He also sent an email with his latest personal gaming news:

VardaValar1: /quoth he:
VardaValar1: Created a SkyGolem for myself: for those interested in seeing it. It was a mount 30 days in the making, so that adds another mount to my list.
VardaValar1: Also worked on Archaeology, and got the crawling claw pet from Tol'vir Archaeology:
VardaValar1: /endEonwe'sletterquote

ArPharazonV: Grats!
VardaValar1: Impressive, especially with as little help as he gets.
VardaValar1: Any other WoW news?
VardaValar1: Arien and Phar? :-)
ArPharazonV: Hmm, our raids have resumed again.
ArPharazonV: Now that everyone's back from the meet.
ArPharazonV: No new loot for me though.
VardaValar1: Nice just to be active again.
ArPharazonV: And I've still been killing stuff on the Timeless Isle, got a few more things, now working on the Cliffdwellers for the piles of stone they drop. But they're pretty difficult to solo!
ArPharazonV: And yes, it is :-)
VardaValar1: Arien is probably working with her role-play group.

VardaValar1: LotRO:
VardaValar1: Monday from about 7 to 11 am Eastern, the servers will be down for patch Update 14.1.
VardaValar1: Sapience comments on Soon. :-)
VardaValar1: under General.
karakedi25: Are you aware that Sapience is leaving?
VardaValar1: I heard a rumor. True then?
karakedi25: Yes, he's going to be CM for Extra Life. Frelorn is replacing him. He was with LotRO before, and those who remember him say he is good people.
karakedi25: This is Sapience's last week.
VardaValar1: Always sorry when we lose LotRO team members, so many gone lately after Helm's Deep. Good to hear about Frelorn.
VardaValar1: I also heard a rumor that Warner Brothers was considering selling LotRO to a businessman, a rumor that we hope is not true.
karakedi25: This is a good fit for Rick (Sapience), as he's dedicated so much to that cause.
karakedi25: Ewwwww I hope not.
AriehnV: ah i wonder whether that quest is working now .. one of the book quests in that moor area in southern mirkwood was bugging and i could ever address the two guys i was supposed to find .. they always vanished as soon as i did
ArPharazonV: Can they even do that? Would the rights to Tolkien carry over?
karakedi25: Arien, that's working as intended. They're phantoms, and you have to find the real ones.
VardaValar1: Aye to what Indis said. It's part of the quest.
VardaValar1: Warner Brothers managed to buy LotRO, so there must be some mechanism in place.
ArPharazonV: Probably. Though I'd figure that the Tolkien Estate would have to renew the rights.
karakedi25: They bought Turbine, which included LotRO.
ArPharazonV: Or at least give permission of sorts.
VardaValar1: The idea that people don't want raid content is odd. They said it was the percentage, but in the case of a number of us, we have one or a few raiding characters while the rest are crafters or mules.
karakedi25: Apparently LotRO is making money, though it is probably being diverted to Infinite Crisis.
VardaValar1: That's not actually through the Tolkien Estate. What's the spelling, Saul Zaentz?
VardaValar1: heh, probably true, Indis.
karakedi25: Yes, it's Tolkien Enterprises, not the Estate.
ArPharazonV: Allright, that, then.
ArPharazonV: I'll not pretend I know all this stuff.
VardaValar1: You have a point, Phar. The moving around of the rights has to be a nightmare.
ArPharazonV: I just knew they had to get the rights from somewhere.
ArPharazonV: Right :-)
karakedi25: As for the raiding controversy, their it seems obvious to me that their budget was cut, and they've had to set some priorities.
VardaValar1: They make money and their budget still gets cut. Hard to do well in those circumstances.
karakedi25: Tolkien sold the rights to LotR and Hobbit at a time when he needed money.
VardaValar1: He did get a little money off the movie rights. A man has to eat.
VardaValar1: Too bad he didn't get a cut from the PJ films. That would've set him up.
VardaValar1: Being dead makes it tough.
ArPharazonV: Yes, it usually does.
VardaValar1: The kin in LotRO has been busy, enjoying the new content, leveling, crafting.
VardaValar1: Any other news, comments, suggestions? This is where you can make a difference, so feel free to sound off.

ArPharazonV: Well, some new stuff on Peter Jackson's facebook, with a few comic con posts and a Hobbit-related fan contest, but I haven't really looked at that. But I think you can win a visit to Wellington.
ArPharazonV: currently, the last 3 posts or so
karakedi25: Basically you register to get news from WB, and in some way you become eligible for the contest.
ArPharazonV: Otherwise, carry on!
VardaValar1: Thanks, very cool. :-)
VardaValar1: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: Arien, are you back?
AriehnV: i am here .. if you mean that
AriehnV: i am at home
VardaValar1: Would you like to tell about your LARP experience? :-)
AriehnV: yes sure
VardaValar1: [looks like they bothered PJ into making a teaser trailer before he was ready, which would be October after the effects in the movie are finished.]
AriehnV: first off .. it was absolute fantastic and i had a lot of fun .. cool i l look forward to that :-D
AriehnV: was a long drive downn and a new site but found it all .. so we went off monstering for friday night which was awesome in itself .. they had the mission as a kind of super boss with four super adds which had to be killed first in a particular manner before the main baddie could be killed
AriehnV: you know with real mechanics .. each sub boss was vulnerable only to oe type of damage and the main boss had to be tanked all the way through the other fights
AriehnV: ((one type of damage))
AriehnV: but they got them all down all five .. they lost one player the main tank and three other party members vanished and they dont know about there whereabouts .. the woman that was killed got resurrected the next day by the way curtesy of the referees ^^
VardaValar1: Yikes - lost them? Just went home or something?
AriehnV: know the party members disappeared i hear they got lost really as a whole bunch during that mission since it got dark but all came back safely oocly
AriehnV: it was new terrai for us
AriehnV: terrain for us .. new site
AriehnV: then a bit tavern after ... so rp fun there for my character too .. young priestes called Daria Nightbane
AriehnV: We had the mission on Saturday morning and it didnt sound too bad
AriehnV: we had to go into a desert to evacuate villagers because apparently there were some strange storms
AriehnV: the way in the usual fracass .. bandits .. orcs .. undead
AriehnV: bandits and orcs got steered a way without too much trouble we cleared them with a bit effort but combined healing kept us all in game#
ArPharazonV: What you find in any desert, of course.
AriehnV: yup ^^
AriehnV: unfortunatly i used all my power so i couldnt cast spells anymore
AriehnV: so basically *out of mana*
AriehnV: and had no armor
AriehnV: i survived that encounter .. with 1 hitpoint and no arms ^^
AriehnV: stupid paralyse spell from the monster and then just wacked ;-)
ArPharazonV: Must be difficult, to roleplay a lack of arms.
AriehnV: you just keep them folded behind your back and act duly the badly wounded
AriehnV: still had my eyes and legs so i could shout i the remaining encounters when they failed at their flanks ^^
AriehnV: /
AriehnV: they learned it the hardway and had something like the tactic together to stick together and not get split up
AriehnV: we got to a village elder in one of the villages who helped us heal up the worst bits apart from what they couldnt aka my arms and got to some ruins which were occupied by a mad masked person .. who gathered a lot of energy in a pool and blew everything up so we had to run for it
AriehnV: we made it to a village whose elder .. hurray was the woman we met before .. what could be found out was that it was maybe the works of demons even the storms that were in the desert
AriehnV: we got gated back from there and a skilled healer priest cleansed us from a disease we had caught in the desert and restored my arms .. not immediatly but over 3 days or so
AriehnV: so i had to play my other character for the remaining roleplaying events
ArPharazonV: First day, up to the elbow...
AriehnV: hehe aye then up to the wrist and last day hands with fingers ^^
AriehnV: so yeah the afternoon was roleplaying until the evening which was a pbarbarien special with a lot of kilts and blue woaded creatures running about ^^
AriehnV: beserking and such
AriehnV: that was the last powerdrain for all of us 15 encounters
AriehnV: but fun fun .. with some brambles we had to wade through and thunderstorm and lightning
AriehnV: "High table" was run by them with some nice moroccan food which was very tasty
AriehnV: i only made it until a bit after two am .. i was so groggy and i had to drive a bit the next day
AriehnV: but it was worth it as i say :-) Thats it
VardaValar1: Thank you Arien. :-)
VardaValar1: That is almost like getting to be there.

VardaValar1: We have a chat topic for you:
VardaValar1: For what reasons did elves sail to Valinor? Not all did, some delayed a great deal and had reasons for that.
VardaValar1: This can be across all the books if you like, since we have serious readers here. :-)
ArPharazonV: If you had the chance to meet the gods and live in a deathless, illuminated realm, when all you know is stars, and shadowy creatures moving across the land...
VardaValar1: Aye, that would be the viewpoint of the first elves.
VardaValar1: And everyone else was doing it. :-)
ArPharazonV: "Yeah, we're moving west tomorrow." "But we had that cardgame next week!" "So why not come with us?"
VardaValar1: Pretty much all the Vanyar went, the smallest and therefore able to be the most cohesive group.
VardaValar1: Good point. They would help push each other against a flagging resolve.
VardaValar1: A kind of fellowship.
VardaValar1: Others tried but were stopped by a lack of an island ship that had been anchored by Osse.
VardaValar1: Had it not been for Melian and Osse, we would have had far fewer Sindar in Middle-earth.
VardaValar1: What about later, when elves could take shop from the Grey Havens?
VardaValar1: \
VardaValar1: *ship
VardaValar1: They had been in Middle-earth a long time. Why start leaving again? Same reason? New reasons?
ArPharazonV: Well, mankind started to multiply and transform the land, the old realms were being lost (I'm sure the chopping of much of the forests by Numenoreans didn't help), and they figured it wasn't their place anymore.
ArPharazonV: But there's more to it than that. The Silvans didn't seem to be bothered much by the desire to leave, but if you look at Legolas (who, granted, was of Sindarin descent), when he came to the sea, it gripped him.
VardaValar1: True, the age of Man was coming at them. Yet the elves were tied to Arda while humans were not.
ArPharazonV: What effect did it have on Legolas? Why did it put a desire in him?
VardaValar1: True, the sea-longing was a constant mild thing in the Noldor, but absent completely from the Sindar unless they came in contact with the Sea. Then the sea-longing hit very hard.
VardaValar1: The Sindar are the sea-elves, called the Teleri in Valinor.
VardaValar1: Phar, that's a great queston.
VardaValar1: They had a stronger connection to the Sea. But why?
VardaValar1: It was absent until they contacted the Sea.
karakedi25: Among other things, their long association with Osse
AriehnV: and Frodo dreaemed of the sea at Beorns
VardaValar1: Good point. The early Sindar were on the shore working with Osse, Ulmo, Uinen all the time for years. So that somehow left an effect that passed on to their descendants.
VardaValar1: Odd that they could be free of the sea-longing by remainng inland from birth. Apparently it had to be triggered and then went off strongly.
VardaValar1: Aye. Frodo dreamed of the sea, perhaps one of his foretellings? He eventually sailed to Valinor.
AriehnV: perhaps .. and he had had contact with the elves before didnt he? he went to meet them at times in the forest
VardaValar1: Some of the elves had strongholds under the protection and preservation of the Elven Rings. Yet even with those havens, elves headed for the Grey Havens, noticeably more of them when the Enemy began to stir in Barad-dur.
ArPharazonV: Abandoning the sinking ship.
VardaValar1: Where were those elves coming from that were leaving? Places outside the Ring retreats? Some like Gildor Inglorion had been in Rivendell for a time and yet were leaving.
VardaValar1: Could be a lot of it, Phar. :-)
VardaValar1: Were any leaving Lothlorien before the Rings went dead? We know some came through Rivendell but it was closer to the Grey Havens.
ArPharazonV: To be fair, the Rings not only lost a lot of power after the One Ring was gone, but I can also imagine that those who wore them prior to that, considered using them more dangerous as Sauron (and the One Ring) grew in power.
ArPharazonV: Even though he didn't have the thing yet.
VardaValar1: Agreed. They did say that Sauron could detect them if they were in the process of using them. I think that was if he had the One Ring though? Maybe he could feel them a bit without it?
AriehnV: well it seems that some of the Noldo were leaving before the grand ring war started .. there were rumours about parties leaving Middlearth and seek the grey havens
ArPharazonV: Possibly, although they were made without his influence, I think?
VardaValar1: Aye. As evil things began to be called to Barad-dur, elves started heading the opposite direction.
VardaValar1: The Elven Rings were not touched by Sauron, but were made by his process. Apparently he put in some code that linked them to the One Ring, by our way of thinking.
ArPharazonV: They might also be linked to him, then, even without the Ring.
VardaValar1: Possibly - so they were very careful about using them.
VardaValar1: The elves that had no Ring dependency seemed more likely to stay?
ArPharazonV: They were used to that state, I guess.
VardaValar1: They were already used to having to protect themselves.
AriehnV: well yeah the art of ring forging was tought to the elves by Sauron or Annatar as he called himself at the time
VardaValar1: Galadriel was from Valinor and wanted to return home. She had not been allowed to go until she proved she had turned from her desire for power by refusing the One Ring. Originally she went to Middle-earth wanting to become a queen.
VardaValar1: Many of the elves used to following her and used to the lovely place she made for them followed her to Valinor.
ArPharazonV: She passed the test.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: But Celeborn resisted going to Valinor. He had been born in Middle-earth. His wife and people left, and he was not longer lord of much of anything.
karakedi25: I think that's a bit of sexism on Tolkien's part. It was OK for the male Noldor to want to establish realms of their own, but her wanting to have a a chance to rule was inappropriate power-hunger?
VardaValar1: Other Noldor had to drop the power hunger too.
VardaValar1: Celeborn apparently didn't have power hunger.
VardaValar1: He wanted to remain even without being a lord, and even stayed a long time at Rivendell.
karakedi25: I still think there was some sex role bias involved.
VardaValar1: Feanor with his power hunger was not portrayed as a good person.
karakedi25: Galadriel's desire for a place to rule was quite different from Feanor.
VardaValar1: JRRT gets hit a lot with sexism charges. I felt he refuted the ideas of sexism that he saw in the old days that were so common when he made Eowyn such a major character.
ArPharazonV: Most of the Noldorin realms didn't fair too well, and most of the truly ambitious ones were not allowed to return. Alive, in any case.
karakedi25: JRRT was a product of his times, and probably relatively enlightened for the period, but nevertheless still an 'old boy.'
AriehnV: want galadriel Feanors cousin?
ArPharazonV: I think that if Elrond had taken the Ring and failed the same test that Galadriel passed, he probably wouldn't be very welcome either :-)
ArPharazonV: Niece, I think.
ArPharazonV: Daughter of Finarfin?
karakedi25: It was never an issue for Elrond.
AriehnV: ah yes Niece then
VardaValar1: Yet JRRT came out strongly with Eowyn, showing how the times were unfair to a woman with the heart of a shield-maiden.
karakedi25: niece, yes. Finarfin's daughter.
ArPharazonV: Elrond never wanted to rule. But if he had..
karakedi25: Yes, and he showed Galadriel as a good ruler.
VardaValar1: Elrond could have been High King, but refused it.
karakedi25: And that she used her power well.
VardaValar1: Haleth was shown as a strong ruler too.
VardaValar1: Elrond had already passed the test of whether he could resist the call of power.
karakedi25: If Finrod had survived, would he have been subject to the same kind of test?
VardaValar1: Sauron and Saruman were very big on power.
VardaValar1: Finrod was so tested. He had to put his crown down to go help Beren.
VardaValar1: He honored his oath.
ArPharazonV: Sign of a good king, being able to help in the action?
VardaValar1: Oaths, loyalty are very big in the story.
karakedi25: I don't see what was wrong with Galadriel's desire to do what her brothers could do.
VardaValar1: Galadriel left the Valar with Feanor. She had something to prove before she could return.
VardaValar1: Her brothers got in a lot of trouble.
karakedi25: Yes, but their aspirations (other than the oath) were not considered abnormal.
VardaValar1: She was fine as a ruler, but had to prove that she was not addicted to power.
ArPharazonV: Which was something all her brothers had to do, or die trying.
VardaValar1: Everyone seemed fine with her as Lady of Lorien.
karakedi25: that's fair, as long as the others had to do so as well
VardaValar1: No one wanted to depose her.
ArPharazonV: If Turgon had lived to be tested by the Ring...
VardaValar1: It's another interesting theme. Those with power had to be able to lay it down at need. If they could not do so, they were not worthy of it.
ArPharazonV: Not one of Galadriel's brothers I believe, but still.
VardaValar1: Turgon refused to leave Gondolin when the Valar gave him warning. And look how that turned out.
ArPharazonV: Right. That's why I think he would've fared less in the test than Galadriel.
ArPharazonV: I think I need to look up the family tree. Who were Galadriel's brothers again?
VardaValar1: Galadriel proved herself to be great.
VardaValar1: Finrod was one
ArPharazonV: Finrod, Aegnor and Angrod?
ArPharazonV: The latter two were not all that notable in the stories though. They died relatively early, I think?
VardaValar1: four elder brothers were Finrod, Orodreth, Angrod and Aegnor.
ArPharazonV: Right. Orodreth had multiple versions, I recall.
ArPharazonV: In any case, he also failed the same test Turgon did, even if he had a bloody stubborn human pushing him to do so.
VardaValar1: heh
VardaValar1: Turin :-)
VardaValar1: I never could see his becoming a Vala.
karakedi25: Truly a flawed being.
VardaValar1: So in summary, reasons elves went to Valinor:
VardaValar1: they were called by the Valar to keep them safe,
VardaValar1: they wanted to go to a wonderful place of light and knowledge,
VardaValar1: they were fleeing evil,
VardaValar1: they were being pushed out by the increase of humans,
VardaValar1: they were subject to sea-longing,
karakedi25: the Calaquendi knew where they were going because they'd been there already
VardaValar1: (Sindar were very pulled by sea-longing, much less for Noldor)
karakedi25: the Eldar who had not been there had an unfinished journey
VardaValar1: loss of havens when the Rings were no longer active
ArPharazonV: They came that far, might as well finish the trip.
karakedi25: the 4th age was the age of Men, and the other races could expect to fade
VardaValar1: A number of those early elves that did not finish the trip turned aside because they found lands they loved. Others were intimidated by the mountains.
VardaValar1: But how many beings were aware that the 4th Age was supposed to be the Age of Men? Or did it partly happen because the others left or became unable to reproduce enough (dwarves).
karakedi25: I expect that the elves knew
VardaValar1: All the elves? Just the Noldor? Just the lore-masters?
VardaValar1: Why would any remain at all after Aragorn became High King of Gondor and Arnor?
ArPharazonV: The knowledge might have been passed along.
ArPharazonV: And there's always people who don't want to move :-)
VardaValar1: True. :-)
karakedi25: I'm sue the knowledge was passed along. Elves were generally relatively enlightened, especially the Eldar.
VardaValar1: The ones that mostly remained were not High Elves. Some were, such as reluctant Celeborn.
VardaValar1: Perhaps it was a way for the Sindar and Silvans to show independence for a while at least from the Noldor?
VardaValar1: Stubborness and love of home, not seeing the loss of Rings as much of a change except for the better?
ArPharazonV: I'm sure that played a part for those who stayed, yes. After all, not everyone's the same!
VardaValar1: Was anything left out of the summary of reasons to go?
VardaValar1: Alrighty then.
VardaValar1: *swings hammer*
VardaValar1: *tinnnnnng thomp*
VardaValar1: Hmm.

VardaValar1: After-meeting:
VardaValar1: Thank you all for coming and for your insights. :-)
karakedi25: nice discussion
VardaValar1: I have one more link :-)
VardaValar1: Fun with an awful lot of Legos:
VardaValar1: 7219/?type=1&theater
ArPharazonV: That's a lot of legos.
VardaValar1: Pixelly in real life. :-)
VardaValar1: Looks like they lit the eye.
VardaValar1: That's from the Facebook for the Hobbit movies.
VardaValar1: Here's another from a comic-con at the Weta workshop booth, not legos:
VardaValar1: 8361/?type=1&theater
AriehnV: hehe nice work
AriehnV: i wonder how long it took to build this
AriehnV: i had a look at a games work shop by the Varda the day before i went to the larp in Inverness
AriehnV: you know they make games miniatures and gameboards for boardgames there
AriehnV: with landscape things
VardaValar1: Aye, really fantastic stuff :-)
AriehnV: they built goblin town on one of them :-)
AriehnV: or Isenguard
AriehnV: Isengard
ArPharazonV: Isengard would be a nice boardgame.
VardaValar1: ooooh
AriehnV: was really impressed
AriehnV: there u go vound the site of it
VardaValar1: Thanks for the link :-)
AriehnV: its goblin town indeed thats what i thought when i saw it
AriehnV: apparently there is a game "escape from goblintown*
VardaValar1: Just blew time looking through movie pictures. Imagine if JRRT had gotten to retcon the Hobbit after writing the LotR. He would surely have added 10 year old Aragorn, maybe a bit of Gloin thinking of young Gimli (in movie, yay), and Legolas would have been there as one of Thranduil's captains possibly being groomed for kingship in case Thranduil caught a sword or axe in the wrong way.
VardaValar1: He did make sure the Ring showed up more.
VardaValar1: Ok - I'm away. Have a great week!
ArPharazonV: Foreshadowing always seems much easier in prequels!
ArPharazonV: Namarie :-)
AriehnV: you too enjoy meal and all and god night :-)
VardaValar1: Aye to that :-)
VardaValar1: Guten nacht :-)
AriehnV: good night even
VardaValar1 has left the room.
karakedi25: namarie
AriehnV: Gute Nacht
AriehnV has left the room.
karakedi25 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Namarie to the rest of you too, then!
ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript