August 3, 2014 Sunday Meeting
EDT (UTC/GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
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Transcript work by Ar-Pharazon and Varda.
AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, VardaValar1 (presiding)
New art by The Bohemian Weasel-(T)
Legend of Kalevala
Discussion: We find a person who does one role, called a "type", like a ruler, then
see which character does a similar role for the opposite side, called
an "anti-type". Then see how they do their differenct approaches making
them them the good or bad guys.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Phar :-)
VardaValar1: Inviting now
ArPharazonV: ehr, I'll dive back onto bnet to drag the sun here, I guess.
VardaValar1: You go to find the sun? :-)
ArPharazonV: Not easy from here!
VardaValar1: heh - must be inside the caverns under Arda
ArPharazonV: there she is
VardaValar1: I'll fire up LotRO and see if anyone is available for the meeting
VardaValar1: O good. :-)
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: evening all
AriehnV: hehe beat your reminder :P#
VardaValar1: Grats :-)
VardaValar1: Are you in your rp group?
AriehnV: nah nought happening this evening am bored alas
ArPharazonV: Actually I got the message of you logging in a second *after* my reminder, so you almost made it!
VardaValar1: Then 'tis good that the sun has come up here, where you are wanted
AriehnV: hehe fair enuff Phara :-)
AriehnV: how are you guys doing ?
ArPharazonV: Good, just logged off from WoW, so it'll be meeting and a
bit of browsing until I head back into hearthstone in a couple of hours.
AriehnV: nice nice
AriehnV: i went back to work today ^^
VardaValar1: Grats I think. :-)
VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Hellos to the AIM gang from LotRO: Annael and Hurin are there.
AriehnV: Hi back to them :-)
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Hiurok: say hi from the northern contingent :-)
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Annirian: *Wave*
AriehnV: I am back from holidays officially .. so work again and off as it is monday and tuesday ;-)
karakedi25 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis :-)
VardaValar1: So we need to turn you loose at a reasonable time on Sundays now, Arien?
ArPharazonV: And aiya to the LotRO gang, then!
VardaValar1: Any other membership news?
VardaValar1: Gaming news is up by Eonwe for the Games Site, which we'll get to in Gaming.
VardaValar1: The Tolkien Site has new paintings from the Bohemian Weasel-(T):
VardaValar1: One is of Gandalf, two are of Boromir defending Merry and Pippin.
VardaValar1: His valiant defense may have gone far towards making them appear to be the Ringbearer and companion.
ArPharazonV: Just 3 arrows, must be movie!
VardaValar1: Orcs or even their masters may not have been able to
imagine that Boromir would do such a thing for any lesser reason.
VardaValar1: Just getting started. :-)
ArPharazonV: True, some arrows must have been the first three.
VardaValar1: He had to get his second wind, or second lung going.
VardaValar1: Non-WoW, non-LoTRO gaming:
VardaValar1: From the Games Site:
VardaValar1: In StarCraft 2, some info has been posted on the three species of Zerg:
VardaValar1: At home, Fangorn and I snuck in a game of StarCraft: BroodWar
ArPharazonV: *nods* what I picked up from that is that drones are supposed to float. I did not know that.
VardaValar1: That could be handy.
VardaValar1: Any other non-WoW, non-LotRO news?
VardaValar1: Go Phar :-)
plague quarter came out this week! 3 more bosses, bunch of new cards,
and 2 rather funny gimmicky class challenges, far more gimmicky than
last week's class challenges.
ArPharazonV: Give them a try if you haven't!
ArPharazonV: Military Quarter is coming out in a few days, with even more stuff along the same lines!
ArPharazonV: Also, all my classes are 25 now, so I'm still making progress there :-)
ArPharazonV: As for flashgaming, let's see...
AriehnV: nice nice
took a lot of my time this week to complete. I'm sure I've mentioned
the Decision series before: Clean up a city of zombies with a variety
of weaponry, while taking control of factories and towers.
ArPharazonV: Decision: Medieval goes about 500 years back to the middle
ages, with mines instead of factories, defensive walls with archers
instead of towers, and trolls and orcs on top of the zombies invading
ArPharazonV: Also bunch of new abilities, friendly npcs, fun achievements, quests...
ArPharazonV: So have fun!
VardaValar1: Hmm, zombie trolls.
ArPharazonV: Yep, there's zombie trolls :D
VardaValar1: WoW news:
VardaValar1: oh pardon. Go ahead.
ArPharazonV: As a second game I'll throw in a platformer with a nice
story, simple and clean mechanics, and a bunch of interlocked levels to
ArPharazonV: and that's it for me!
VardaValar1: Thanks, good to hear about.
VardaValar1: From the Games Site:
VardaValar1: New article on customizing faces:
VardaValar1: how the artwork is done:
VardaValar1: Another update for the patch notes for Warlords of Draenor:
karakedi25: afk for a few mins
VardaValar1: the beta:
VardaValar1: Personal news from Eonwe by email:
VardaValar1: "Got the "And They Would
All Go Down Together (10 player)" achievement in Naxxramas, completing
my meta achievement for that raid this week. Too bad there's not still
a mount tied to it."
VardaValar1: Take care and have fun at the meeting :}Eonwë
VardaValar1: Any WoW news from here?
ArPharazonV: Grats Eonwe! And is this a good time to say I finished an old raid meta achievement this week too? :-)
VardaValar1: Huzzah! And definitely the right time.
ArPharazonV: Yesterday we took a bunch of people into the old Dragon
Soul raid and finished all the non-heroic achievements. Since I'd
already fought them on heroic back in the day, I completed the meta and
got a new mount!
ArPharazonV: And that's pretty much all that happened to me in WoW,
except for more grinding and raiding for stuff I ultimately didn't yet
VardaValar1: but you will. :-)
VardaValar1: Servers will be down Monday morning for maintenance and probably gaming tweaks.
VardaValar1: We have some folks who could use company on their epics
and especially the ones for Helm's Deep. Don't forget to check with
each other in kinship about that.
VardaValar1: Also some of the gang could use some help from crafters on gear, but tend not to ask. Inspections may be needed.
VardaValar1: Fangorn-(Valar) waves hi. :-)
VardaValar1: Any other LotRO news?
AriehnV: closing in on 65 so i can finally use that nice mace some Fainan made for my guardien ^^
AriehnV: am trying the two handed specialisation after the talent resent so that needs a bit getting used to
AriehnV: kills certainly faster
ArPharazonV: Almost grats then!
VardaValar1: Helps a lot do the red line when leveling, just don't forget to keep up your sword and board talents for grouping.
VardaValar1: My guardian uses red line a lot when solo.
AriehnV: whats it called .. the keen blade
AriehnV: i like it :-)
ArPharazonV: red line?
VardaValar1: Red line is the damage line for most characters.
VardaValar1: It's on a list of traits that has a red background, so people call it the red line.
karakedi25: back for now
VardaValar1: Blue tends to be support/heal
ArPharazonV: So... like a dps spec?
VardaValar1: Welcome back :-)
VardaValar1: Yellow tends to be area effect damage
ArPharazonV: Ah, that's also fun.
VardaValar1: That is general, not quite a fit for all classes.
VardaValar1: I even use sword and board on Keen Blade for my guardian, not the most efficient way, heh.
VardaValar1: Any other news, comments, suggestions on anything? Any new business?
karakedi25: For lore-masters, blue is the pet line, red is dps, and yellow is healling and debuffing
VardaValar1: Lore-masters are an interestingly different class, considered advanced, and Indis' specialty. :-)
VardaValar1: In our Tolkien class, they came up with an interesting comparison concept that we might get a kick out of trying.
VardaValar1: We find a person who does one role, called a type, like a
ruler, then see which character does a similar role for the opposite
side, called an anti-type. Then see how they do their differenct
approaches making them them the good or bad guys.
VardaValar1: Some even seem to have more than one type or anti-type.
VardaValar1: Who would be a major leader for the good guys in Lord of the Rings?
karakedi25: Aragorn is the obvious answer.
VardaValar1: Is there an obvious anti-type?
ArPharazonV: A combat-leader? Hmm...
karakedi25: possibly the Witch-king. Sauron is a Maia, so not comparable.
ArPharazonV: Witch King perhaps, yes.
VardaValar1: The Witch-king sounds very good.
VardaValar1: Both are Numenoreans, both are combat leaders, both are very competent.
VardaValar1: Who would be the advisor, wise old man/woman type? May be more than one.
karakedi25: again obviously Gandalf and to some degree Elrond/Galadriel
ArPharazonV: Trying to think of someone on the other side...
VardaValar1: Could also have a power behind the throne rather than a true advisor, could be either type or anti-type.
ArPharazonV: All I can think of is the Mouth of Sauron.
karakedi25: I'm not sure how much advice Sauron took from anyone.
ArPharazonV: But he didn't "advise" Sauron as much as he "advised" Aragorn.
karakedi25: The Mouth was a spokesman.
VardaValar1: The Mouth was a messenger, spokesman, aye. Is there a type on the good guy side?
ArPharazonV: If we equate the Witch-King with Aragorn, might as well
put Sauron as the "power behind the throne"/"advisor"/"maia who doesn't
see a lot of combat".
VardaValar1: Sauron looks squarely in the throne to me.
karakedi25: At one time Elrond was the herald of Gil-Galad
ArPharazonV: Even though Gandalf saw a lot of combat before the end.
VardaValar1: Elrond advise a lot of pwople too.
karakedi25: yes, see above
VardaValar1: Elrond advises a lot of people too. (must put fingers in the right places)
ArPharazonV: I think Aragorn did most of his speaking/spokesman-ing himself.
karakedi25: Grima would be an anti-advisor
VardaValar1: Aye, there you go.
ArPharazonV: Good one!
VardaValar1: What about a group type/anti-type?
ArPharazonV: 2 opposing armies would be the obvious.
VardaValar1: Nine Walkers vs the Nine Riders
ArPharazonV: Those might be even more obvious.
ArPharazonV: Eagles vs.. what's their name. Fel beasts?
karakedi25: Free peoples largely intrinsically motivated (loyalty to country) vs orcs motivated by the whip
VardaValar1: Obvious is good if we can spot it
VardaValar1: Fell beasts, aye
VardaValar1: Good one, Indis
VardaValar1: Did Frodo have an anti-type?
ArPharazonV: (Let me interject at this point by saying there's a trailer out for the third Hobbit-film)
ArPharazonV: ( https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152531353491558 )
VardaValar1: Aye, there is a trailer for the trailer, and the trailer itself.
ArPharazonV: This would be the actual trailer.
VardaValar1: Also now out at the movies. Saw it this morning while
waiting for Guardians of the Galaxy. Big screen looks fabulous.
VardaValar1: Thanks for the link!
karakedi25: I believe LotRO twitter also has it
ArPharazonV: Back to topic. Gollum fits, yes. Is there an anti-Sam?
karakedi25: in a way, Gollum plays that role too
ArPharazonV: Pff, Gollum couldn't cook.
VardaValar1: Gollum has two parts of himself, letting him be a double anti for the two he travels with.
AriehnV: Frodo .. Gollum as a rough guess
karakedi25: even better contrast :-P
VardaValar1: Gollum likes his fish raw, Sam likes it cooked. :-)
ArPharazonV: The anti-chef.
karakedi25: Varda, that was my thought as well (two parts of self)
VardaValar1: Great minds... ;-)
karakedi25: Completely in contrast with respect to trustworthiness
ArPharazonV: The loyal follower who's parallel to Sam and the ring-addict who's parallel to Frodo?
karakedi25: more or less
VardaValar1: Neat how Gollum acts as two characters swapping out.
VardaValar1: But they have overlap where the Ring is concerned.
karakedi25: wait, loyal follower would not be anti-Sam
ArPharazonV: well, no, but the anti-types do fill some of the same roles as their.. ehrm.. non-anti-types.
VardaValar1: Traitor, planned to take them to Shelob, but appeared to be faithful.
karakedi25: addict could be anti-Frodo
ArPharazonV: Which is what makes them the anti
ArPharazonV: Or something.
VardaValar1: Frodo fought hard against his addiction, Gollum caved happily into it.
karakedi25: Or at least there's no evidence that he fought it
VardaValar1: Smeagol didn't really understand the danger to start with, the way Frodo did.
karakedi25: Smeagol had no support and advice like what Frodo had
ArPharazonV: That's true. When Smeagol got addicted to it, nobody told
him how dangerous it was, and the Ring wasn't actually as dangerous as
it was when Frodo had it.
VardaValar1: Also, Smeagol was not a good guy to start with. He immediately turned his invisibility into a means for extortion.
karakedi25: He didn't have a Gandalf
VardaValar1: Frodo was chosen for traits that were resistant to the Ring.
ArPharazonV: I could put forward that we don't know how much time there
was *exactly* between getting the ring and using it for evil, but he
did do evil just in the way he acquired it.
karakedi25: (who, by the way, would have been something of an anti-Sauron)
VardaValar1: Gollum also had resistance of a different nature, that led
to him being the steward until Bilbo could take the Ring.
VardaValar1: Sam didn't promptly hit Frodo over the head with a frying pan and take the Ring.
VardaValar1: Smeagol and Deagol were supposed to have been friends too.
Deagol had recently given Smeagol a birthday present worth more than he
VardaValar1: What other type/anti-types can you spot?
karakedi25: as mentioned, to a degree, Gandalf vs Sauron (both Maiar)
VardaValar1: Not bad.
VardaValar1: Would Gandalf and Saruman also play that type/anti-type?
karakedi25: was just about to suggest that :-P
VardaValar1: What about Galadriel?
ArPharazonV: Advisor, resisted the offer of the ring, queen of her own land... who could be her anti?
VardaValar1: This one is tricky. She actually suggests her own anti-type, one that doesn't happen because she passed the test.
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar.
ArPharazonV: By that logic, perhaps Gollum's his own antitype :-)
VardaValar1: No actual anti, but a warning that she could have been her own anti.
karakedi25: We actually have much less information about the other side and its personalities
VardaValar1: Most of the opposition's personalities were subsumed in what Sauron wanted them to do.
VardaValar1: They had little volition of their own, but some had particular roles that could be anti to free people's roles.
VardaValar1: Aragorn had less choice in his role than most of the Free People. Same for Frodo.
karakedi25: but acceptance of their roles was not involuntary
VardaValar1: Aragorn and Frodo did accept their roles, aye.
ArPharazonV: Saruman was probably the most independent on the "other" side.
VardaValar1: Some roles pretty much had to be filled by the ones that had them.
VardaValar1: Saruman thought he was independent, kind of like the Balrog, Shelob, and Smaug thought they were independent.
VardaValar1: But each was neatly used.
ArPharazonV: But we have little information about the personalities for the Balrog and Shelob :-)
VardaValar1: Mostly Shelob had a constant hunger, not much on social graces. But aye, not a lot of info.
VardaValar1: Mainly we're looking for role types/ role anti-types, rather than personalities.
VardaValar1: Function and how they did it in an opposite way.
karakedi25: Personalities play into roles.
VardaValar1: Especially on the free side.
karakedi25: Grima would not have been an anti-advisor without a propensity for it
VardaValar1: Either Boromir or Faramir could be the human in the
Fellowship, but they would have played their part quite differently.
ArPharazonV: So you could say that Shelob was a guard, a loose cannon, just chomping on anyone who tries to get in that way.
ArPharazonV: Does Shelob have an antitype? :-)
ArPharazonV: Good one.
VardaValar1: A guardian unintended, could be the northern men and dwarves guarding the pass. Beorn, good thought.
VardaValar1: Trick is to figure the role they play, then look for someone or something that did it on the other side.
VardaValar1: Also interesting to see who could have filled the role another did, and how it would have happened differently.
karakedi25: Folks, I need to go to the market before it gets much later.
VardaValar1: We have two people that need to leave, so it's about time to swing the hammer.
karakedi25: So I need to bow out of this interesting discussion. Thanks for the fun, all.
VardaValar1: Thanks for joining in!
karakedi25 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Namarie Indis!
VardaValar1: Hmm, a pink hammer?
VardaValar1: *tap tap*
ArPharazonV: Did that sound pink?
VardaValar1: *puts hammer back very carefully.*
VardaValar1: Expected a *pink pink*.
VardaValar1: Fwannnng must be Eowyn's hammer?
ArPharazonV: sounds a bit like a saw or a metal ruler, to be honest.
VardaValar1: *plays the saw*
VardaValar1: Spooky sounding.
VardaValar1: Wonder what that was doing in the hammer shelf?
VardaValar1: Aule! Have your dwarves been leaving their tools lying around again?
VardaValar1: Makes sense. They saw the hammer collection.
VardaValar1: Fangorn is asking if I'll do some LotRO gaming with him now. :-) Cheerio!
ArPharazonV: Have fun!
AriehnV: Namarie to all :-)
AriehnV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: just missed her
VardaValar1: Daddy Twofoot is on too. :-)
VardaValar1: Elwing, Fangorn, and I just completed an instance together
VardaValar1: Lovely day for pleasant surprises.
ArPharazonV: Ooh, looks like I just got a legendary from this hearthstone pack.. I'll save it for last to ramp up the curiosity.
VardaValar1: Fun :-)
ArPharazonV: Grommash Hellscream, the warrior legendary!
VardaValar1: o wow :-)
VardaValar1: Mean ol' boy. :-)
ArPharazonV: well, saving and sending transcript
VardaValar1: Thank you. :-)