December 29, 2013 Sunday Meeting
5pm EST (UTC/GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
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Transcript work by Ar-Pharazon and Varda.
AriehnV, ArPharazonV, EonweValar, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, VardaValar1(presiding)
My Little Pony
A number of critics like to claim JRRT's books were prudish or black
and white in morality. Was JRRT unaware of the unpleasant side of life?
Is it really that way in his writing?
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Sending invitations to those visible :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiyata :-)
VardaValar1: Hantal :-)
VardaValar1: Maybe I should pop into games and send. We sort of did
that back in our beginning Diablo days, since we were all in the same
ArPharazonV: Could work?
VardaValar1: Going to give that a shot. Going into LotRO for a starter.
VardaValar1: They do say they just forget. :-)
ArPharazonV: Then let's take away their excuse!
VardaValar1: Anyone in your area?
ArPharazonV: I'll check WoW then :-)
VardaValar1: Valar Assemble! :-)
ArPharazonV: Who knows, might find arien somewhere...
VardaValar1: Could be. Now loading a LotRO character. Go us!
ArPharazonV: Loading an off-server char so I don't get bombarded by friends, since I've got Arien in battletag anyway.
VardaValar1: ohh, good thought
ArPharazonV: Can't see chat. Stupid addons.
ArPharazonV: In WoW anyway.
VardaValar1: Arien's coming online
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: aiya there :-) sorry for being late .. again got caught up in rp i fear
ArPharazonV: Sorry, didn't see if you responded to me the first time;
that alt was plagued with disfunctional addons and I couldn't see any
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien :-)
VardaValar1: We're dropping into games to give fellow Valarites their reminders :-)
AriehnV: ah right yeah it happened to me before
VardaValar1: Hurin is online in LotRO but afk
AriehnV: oh Varda guess what Santa Clause brought me :-D
VardaValar1: Extended Hobbit 1?
VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentilevo!
ArPharazonV: That was my Christmas gift ;-)
VardaValar1: Starting with Arien's fabulous gift!
VardaValar1: May we all have our own copy soon! Congratulations!
AriehnV: yes that was mine PHar :-D
VardaValar1: From Hurin: merry christmas and happy new year to everyone :-)
ArPharazonV: So we both got the Extended Edition of The Hobbit for Christmas?
VardaValar1: You got it too, Phar! Wonderful!
AriehnV: hehe i loved the extra scenes brilliant
ArPharazonV: Yep. Not had a chance to watch it though, since parents
have been hogging the tvs with darts and skating championships. So
probably next week. Maybe tuesday!
VardaValar1: *dashes off to Arien's house*
VardaValar1: Gives you time to collect popcorn and soda?
AriehnV: *inivites the whole Valarguild to watch it" .. maybe we would burst the living room but never mind .. grin
VardaValar1: Outdoor projection screen in the yard!
karakedi25 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: That would be fun. And we can all dress in costume for the event. : )
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis!
VardaValar1: Phar and Arien got the extended Hobbit 1 for Christmas. : )
karakedi25: oh nice :-)
ArPharazonV: So not only have I never seen the unextended movie, I've
not yet had a chance for the extended either. So it'll all be new!
AriehnV: aiya Indis of coures Varda thatd be great and reenact Radagust luring the wargs ... ha just love it ..
AriehnV: Gandalf: You have no chance .. these are gundabad wargs
VardaValar1: But in a straight line away from the party instead of circling around it!
AriehnV: Radagast: These are Rhosgobel rabbits .. i want to see them try .
VardaValar1: but these are Rhosgobel rabbits!
karakedi25: I finally bought it myself and enjoyed it.
karakedi25: and all the extended stuff
ArPharazonV: grats :-)
VardaValar1: No spoilers *sob* since this transcript goes online for all.
karakedi25: now I have to wait for the ext. ed. of part 2 to come out
VardaValar1: *raises tent and gets in line*
ArPharazonV: Just a year away, I guess. And then another for the third!
karakedi25: Indeed, but it inspired me to go back to the ext ed of LotR.
VardaValar1: Rewatched LotR Christmas Eve night. All three.
karakedi25: Good stuff
VardaValar1: Extended, all three.
ArPharazonV: Full 11 hours?
karakedi25: The behind-the-scenes is fascinating.
VardaValar1: Had to stay up cooking, so why not? Great music too.
ArPharazonV: And you were still awake by the end of it?
karakedi25: Watched it in pieces
karakedi25: and so far, only Fellowship
VardaValar1: I watched the whole thing whilst cutting, chopping, stirring, waiting. Helped keep me awake and happy.
VardaValar1: Music still replaying in my head now and then.
karakedi25: That's a great thing to do during boring tasks.
ArPharazonV: I think I mentioned before but when I watch a movie or
something, I can't be doing other stuff :-) Have to soak in every
second, or I'll end up rewinding every minute to see what I missed ;-)
ArPharazonV: *mentioned this
VardaValar1: Sorry, nothing new. I kind of stopped picking up stuff from other sites for a time.
VardaValar1: TV is visible from the kitchen, speakers set up in the kitchen, cutting board on a table facing the TV. all set!
VardaValar1: Any non-WoW, non-LotRO gaming this past vacation week?
VardaValar1: Fangorn is in SCBroodWar right now
ArPharazonV: Oh, lots of stuff.
ArPharazonV: Besides my usual flashgaming, there are 3 things I'd like to mention.
ArPharazonV: 1: I pre-ordered the Collector's Edition of the Diablo 3 expansion, Reaper of Souls,
this week. I'm not much if any of a D3 player but I've been starting a
tradition of buying Blizzard CEs, and I'm not planning to stop now :-)
ArPharazonV: From a Dutch store, though, so if you're looking for a place to buy, I can't help you.
VardaValar1: No worries. : )
ArPharazonV: 2: Cookie Clicker! http://orteil.dashnet.org/cookieclicker/
I've mentioned this addicting browsergame before, and I hadn't done it
for about a month, but I've been spending a lot of time on it this week
after finding out there was a Christmas update. This involves upgrading
santa clause and clicking reindeer going across the screen, for a few
more achievements. And since I read somewhere that this update will be
going away in mid-January...
ArPharazonV: if any of you play it, you might want to spend some time getting it done :-)
ArPharazonV: 3: I've been playing a My Little Pony fangame that came out this week, called SLHRPG.
ArPharazonV: It's a classic Japanese-style RPG thing, like Final
Fantasy and other such games, and seems styled to appear amateurish and
parody-ish, but it's actually well-made and fun so far. It also has
silly romantic undertones to it, as evident in the full name.
AriehnV: i ve been playing a bit Rift
again recently but likely i am going to stop it again , i find it a bit
too boring in a way because you have no different starting zones .. no
matter what class you start always the same point and story and the
questing can get very much interrupted by invasions and rifts popping
up every 500 yards ;-)
ArPharazonV: So hereby I present "Super Lesbian Horse RPG" and if that doesn't drive you far, far away you can download it from http://ponett.tumblr.com/post/71082678106.
ArPharazonV: And that's all my non-wow news for today, unless I've forgotten some!
VardaValar1: You can bring it up later. We're not that hard to get along with. ;-)
VardaValar1: Arien, did you play some Rift this last week?
AriehnV: yes i did .. i finally managed to get my Cleric to level 60 (cap) hip hip hurray :-)
AriehnV: so annoying these last ten levels . relatively fast up to level 50 but then the last ten are a pain ^^
ArPharazonV: Hmm, apparently that link isn't working properly? Maybe he updated to a new version already. Let me see...
ArPharazonV: and grats Arien :-)
VardaValar1: Grats for getting past those tough ones
VardaValar1: Phar, thanks for checking on the link
ArPharazonV: No problem. I can't find a new place to dowload it now
though, the file seems to have been removed from the linked post.
AriehnV: and i played also a bit the old republic
ArPharazonV: Anyway. For an update, check http://ponett.tumblr.com/
and from what I can see from the top few posts there'll be a new
version up soon, for those reading the transcript and interested.
VardaValar1: Thank you. :-)
ArPharazonV: Now I'm really done ;-)
AriehnV: but nothing special there .. i enjoy the sith sorcerer and the
jedi knight most .. the sage is stuck again , she cant manage to kill
the guy for her class quest and has no money to travel anywhere ^^ so i
am just levelling a couple of republic alts to get some gold to send
AriehnV: but up to 'varda :-D
VardaValar1: ok, thanks Arien. :-)
VardaValar1: Yule Fest is stil going, and will til the middle of January
VardaValar1: That's good because I'm still working on the dailies there for tier 3 rewards. ;-)
VardaValar1: Indis is about to go on a raid, but might be able to say a few words?
karakedi25: Have taken 3 characters to level cap. Some of the end-game
material is still a bit confused, but most of it is possible.
karakedi25: more patches needed to clear it up
VardaValar1: Agreed. They have it operational but still a bit creaky in the end part.
karakedi25: Getting to 95 is fairly easy. Finishing the book is less
so, because of having to do the 'Epic Battles' solo or in order
karakedi25: *and in order
VardaValar1: They are much easier to do as a duo
karakedi25: much easier, just haven't had a duo available
VardaValar1: Gorlim and I did most that way. Ran one with Lycius.
VardaValar1: Ioreth is good about doing stuff with us too.
VardaValar1: Maybe you can catch some of us on sometime. : )
VardaValar1: Hurin's on in the day
karakedi25: Could be. People are often busy or unavailable when I've reached those quests.
VardaValar1: Good luck then
VardaValar1: Any news from the WoW front?
ArPharazonV: Winter Veil: Presents are now under the tree for all your WoW characters :-)
VardaValar1: Ah hah! Until January?
ArPharazonV: Should be! Took me a few days to get all my alts there too, but they were still there last I looked :-)
VardaValar1: Nice. I'll have to check that out. Thanks.
ArPharazonV: Also, my raidgroup has had a bit of a holiday break,
officially, but we've gotten small groups together and managed to get
some heroic bossfights done in earlier raids of Pandaria, so some new
VardaValar1: Excellent. :-)
ArPharazonV: And my pet-hunting has once again born fruit, as I've
gotten both Winter Veil pets from the Greench-daily this week, and one
more Timeless Isle pet-drop. The finishline there seems to be in sight,
only a few more to go :-)
VardaValar1: Running out of time, so that's good to hear.
ArPharazonV: Well, the Isle should be current until 6.0. But for Winter Veil I was quite happy to get them on time, yes.
VardaValar1: Any further suggestions, comments, news?
ArPharazonV: Not from me.
VardaValar1: Don't forget to think about what you would like to see happen in the rp next.
VardaValar1: I ran across this article:
VardaValar1: It gives food for thought.
VardaValar1: A number of critics like to claim JRRT's books were prudish or black and white in morality.
VardaValar1: Do you have any reactions to either of those claims?
VardaValar1: Was JRRT unaware of the unpleasant side of life?
karakedi25: he certainly was
karakedi25: not least because of his service in WWI
karakedi25: aware, that is
VardaValar1: (amazing how much difference an un can make)
karakedi25: hard to raid and talk at the same time
VardaValar1: Agreed. Not really expecting you to talk much. No worries.
VardaValar1: Hard not to react to that remark though.
ArPharazonV: Well it's not just black and white; there are plenty of
grey characters in both LotR and the Silmarillion. But there are a lot
of "black" characters, and a few whites as well.
VardaValar1: Would that be true in real life as well, Phar?
ArPharazonV: It's easy to look at the portrayal of Sauron and his
armies and the individuals therein, and not see a hint of goodness or
even moral ambiguity.
ArPharazonV: Which I do not see as true in real life, since most people have many sides to them.
VardaValar1: and yet Sauron was once a crafter of Aule, and capable of serving others, even Melkor.
VardaValar1: Orcs wanted their own freedom, to set up their own bands to do the only things they knew how to do.
VardaValar1: Agreed. At first sight or a shallow reading, they seem wholly one or the other.
VardaValar1: And, as you said, it's easy to look at it that way.
VardaValar1: It tekes a deeper reading to see the sides of the characters.
ArPharazonV: Aye. And while the characters may have those sides, it
often does not seem relevant to the story, or to the main characters'
point of view.
VardaValar1: JRRT said he was fond of inference. He wanted readers to look deeply, catch the hidden clues.
VardaValar1: The hobbits all learned a lot over their travels.
VardaValar1: Frodo was good at seeing into hearts.
VardaValar1: But at first, they all had trouble seeing much more than the surface.
karakedi25: and the hobbits had their immature if not dark sides too
ArPharazonV: Perhaps it's not so much that Frodo always appeared to be
around grey-morality characters, but that any "black" characters around
him somehow showed signs of grey :-)
VardaValar1: Aye to both of you
VardaValar1: Frodo looked deeply and gave them a chance to show their other sides.
VardaValar1: Sam saw more in black and white.
VardaValar1: Why would Sam see things differently than Frodo did? They traveled together the whole time.
karakedi25: different levels of cognitive complexity among other things
karakedi25: also of course, Frodo bore the ring and had to resist its pull on his darker side for far longer than Sam did
ArPharazonV: In Gollum's case, Frodo found it easy to identify with the pull of the Ring, yes.
ArPharazonV: And yes, I'd not seen it that way yet, but it makes sense
that Frodo finds it hard to see as black and white as Sam because he is
more aware of his own dark side.
VardaValar1: Frodo had more associations with non-hobbits from early
on, and with adventurous Tooks and Brandybucks. He wasn't as in
agreement with the other hobbits.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe :-)
VardaValar1: We're in the Tolkien section.
Eonwe Valar: Sorry I'm late. Errands today took longer than hoped.
VardaValar1: Way it goes. :-)
VardaValar1: Here's the topic: A number of critics like to claim JRRT's
books were prudish or black and white in morality. Was JRRT unaware of
the unpleasant side of life?
VardaValar1: Is it really that way in his writing?
AriehnV: hmm there are not many purely white ones in the books to be honest
AriehnV: at least as i see it
ArPharazonV: Gandalf came to mind, though he is the first to admit his own flaws. Same with Galadriel, I suppose.
AriehnV: a lot of "black" characters have good traits like Gollum or
Mim the petty Dwarf .. he certainly loved and adored his children
ArPharazonV: Aye, those are the grey ones I was talking about :-)
VardaValar1: And which white ones would you consider "white"?
AriehnV: or Feanor even he was not purely black either
Eonwe Valar: "Prudish" is a matter of opinion. As far as "black and
white" morality, I'd say yes, there is Good and there is Evil, that can
be easily understood and seen, but it's also evident that people are
people, and no one is perfect.
Eonwe Valar: No one except Eru, of course.
VardaValar1: Feanor had many admirable traits. He tended to waste a lot
of his abilities or feel easily slighted or be too ambitious.
VardaValar1: And it's said in the books that evil and good are not one
thing among the elves and another among men or hobbits. (paraphrased)
Eonwe Valar: Aye, that's in the History.
ArPharazonV: is Eru white?
ArPharazonV: what about Manwe?
VardaValar1: Manwe had a blind spot, as he had trouble understanding evil.
ArPharazonV: Yes, but does that mean he's no longer "white", morally speaking?
VardaValar1: Eru I would go with being a white character. He also had
the ability to mete out justice, not to be confused with evil.
ArPharazonV: If you get down to it, what do black and white even mean? :-)
VardaValar1: I would go with Manwe's being a white character.
VardaValar1: Phar, go ahead and define it. It gets tossed around a lot.
Eonwe Valar: Well again, understand "Black" and "White" as the
morality, and everyone under Eru as imperfect beings either doing their
best to follow the standard, or rejecting it completely and deciding
"My Will, not Thy Will" (and that second part not solely in the
"biblical" deity sense, but in the sense of *everyone else's* Will)
ArPharazonV: Ehrr. Well, that's a tricky subject, isn't it? Easy to involve philosophy or religion or law/justice.
VardaValar1: yet we can identify a character such as Manwe as "white"
karakedi25: Most simply put, evil had to do with the desire to impose one's will on others.
VardaValar1: Maybe examples would be the best help?
ArPharazonV: Order vs Chaos is not black and white, as both have their
good and bad points... I think Creation vs Destruction is a typical
karakedi25: That might help with the distinction.
VardaValar1: Evil is selfish, aye.
VardaValar1: Well said, Indis. Imposing one's will on others.
ArPharazonV: Then what is good? Freedom? Anarchy? Lawlessness?
Eonwe Valar: If "pure white" would be Good in its fullest, and pure
black Evil in it's fullest, then Eru would be the only Good character,
as the only infinite, omnipotent, "100%" being.
VardaValar1: And Manwe was the closest to the mind of Eru.
VardaValar1: Being aware of evil and refusing to be evil takes courage, as evil tends to try to force its way on others.
Eonwe Valar: In contrast, Tolkien says in one of his letter that he
does not believe in Absolute Evil, because that is 0, so you can see
how there can be no Absolutely Evil character to contrast Eru, because
no character could exist at 0.
karakedi25: remember, the Ring worked on 'good' people by beginning with their desire to use power to do good
Eonwe Valar: Aye Indis.
ArPharazonV: Are you saying, Varda, that being "good" is simply to
"oppose" evil, in contrast to being a conceptual opposite to evil?
ArPharazonV: Is there no "good" if there was no "evil" to oppose?
VardaValar1: As Eonwe mentioned about the zero. the nearest was Morgoth
because he was so nihilistic that he would've destroyed everything he
didn't make including himself, and would have destroyed all that was.
VardaValar1: No, good is not to oppose evil. I was not defining good.
ArPharazonV: And there is creation vs destruction again :-)
VardaValar1: I was agreeing with the evil imposing its will.
Eonwe Valar: Creation vs Nonexistence would be a better comparison; Subcreation vs destruction.
VardaValar1: Aye, that would be a main point of JRRT's. Subcreation was very big with him.
VardaValar1: Mercy vs cruelty showed up
Eonwe Valar: Creation itself is both an act of Good and an Act of Will.
Melkor cannot unmake himself, nor can he make something based on
nothing. In the end, he ultimately couldn't unmake Ea either, merely
reduce it to the basic building blocks.
VardaValar1: Denethor and Faramir understood peoples' hearts, but Denethor used it for control
ArPharazonV: As said before, freedom vs slavery was a good point. Though freedom in its extremes is not a good thing :-)
Eonwe Valar: Free Will, and the respect for it, is the foundation of Good Order :}
VardaValar1: Freedom can go too far, as into anarchy, aye.
karakedi25: In slightly more modern terms, pity as empathy
VardaValar1: Respect for others prevents freedom from going too far.
ArPharazonV: How about preservation vs change? It came up as a topic,
with preservation being preferable... but one could go too far in
Eonwe Valar: Contrary to the Architect from the Matrix: Reloaded, the
problem is not choice, but the abuse of choice, and again, the "My
Will, not Thy Will" attitude.
ArPharazonV: After all, "change" came out on top at the end of the Third Age.
VardaValar1: Preservation was also shown as something that could be taken too far, stagnation, as in Lothlorien.
VardaValar1: If people care about each other, they don't abuse them even if they can.
ArPharazonV: Aye, that was the example I was thinking of, Varda :-)
VardaValar1: Ok gang, we're all in side windows. :-)
ArPharazonV: So, can we say that... if black and white are so difficult
to define in Tolkien's work... we can assume that it's not all black
karakedi25: Actually, it's considerably more subtle than the critics realize.
VardaValar1: Eru and Manwe we can agree as good, as in create, sub-create, not forcing others to do their will.
Eonwe Valar: Black and White are easy to define, but like it real life,
not always easy to quickly recognize and discern in every situation.
VardaValar1: Aye, Indis. They're in a hurry to write a paper, when it's not a hurry up subject.
VardaValar1: Black would be a character with a complete absence of good. I know of no such character in Tolkien's work off-hand.
Eonwe Valar: Should we all serve Sauron? Absolutely not. Should we have
had 6 pacakes instead of 4 for our second breakfast? I don't know.
VardaValar1: Even Morgoth was once Melkor, and meant to be the leader
of the Valar, sharing in the abilities of the others so he could be a
Eonwe Valar: *pacakes = pancakes
VardaValar1: Aye, some things are more clearly a kindness or act of creation, and others are not.
VardaValar1: Some things are more clearly an act of selfishness or destruction for cruelty's sake, and others are not.
karakedi25: Ungoliant came fairly close to all black
VardaValar1: True that.
VardaValar1: She wanted light. One must wonder why she found it a food.
She turned it to unlight and it left her hungry for more light.
karakedi25: She was driven by insatiable hunger.
Eonwe Valar: Every choice has a consequence, but not every choice has
an immediately noticable consequence. Even the Valar, as great as they
are, as much knowledge as they have, are not perfect, and could not
forsee that Morgoth would strike at the Lamps, or the Trees, or they
would've been guarded.
VardaValar1: And why was her hunger insatiable?
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: Ahh, light vs darkness. Another good/evil opposition.
karakedi25: Might have to do with the blackness inside--absence of light.
karakedi25: One has to wonder how she came to be created that way.
VardaValar1: Blackness as emptiness. Light as filling. Unlight as a real digestive problem.
ArPharazonV: Light seemed tied to good and darkness to evil, as shown
not only when it came to Ungoliant, but also to the darkness covering
Gondor at the "start" of Sauron's reign, as the color black for Morgoth
and Orcs and other things of evil... Black Riders...
VardaValar1: She had to be a twisting, not naturally created that way.
ArPharazonV: The way the moon and sunlight arrived to Middle-earth at
the same time as the Elves, driving back Morgoth's forces who preferred
karakedi25: Tolkien might have said it was metaphorical
Eonwe Valar: A perversion or corruption of something in the Music.
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar. So it made it even more amazing when at the end
Eomer and Gimli state their case about light and dark. And how darkness
was no longer a thing to be feared.
Eonwe Valar: *Speaking of Ungoliant.
VardaValar1: Beautiful. And helpful.
Eonwe Valar: Eomer and Gimli were discussing morning and twilight, were they not?
Eonwe Valar: Or am I thinking about the wrong part?
Eonwe Valar: Galadriel vs. Arwen?
VardaValar1: Aye, thanks
ArPharazonV: Light vs dark-haired?
Eonwe Valar: Pardon, need to go afk for a few minutes.
VardaValar1: Galadriel was the morning, the beginning, that which was passing away.
VardaValar1: Guess I should look it up and quote. :-)
VardaValar1: ahhh hah
VardaValar1: The real quote I wanted was from Frodo
VardaValar1: He sees Arwen arrive and makes the comment.
VardaValar1: "And Frodo when he saw her come glimmering in the evening,
with stars on her brow and a sweet fragrance abut her, was moved with
VardaValar1: "and he said to Gandalf, 'At last I understand why we have waited! This is the ending.
VardaValar1: 'Now not day only shall be beloved, bu night too shall be beautiful and blessed and all its fear pass away!'"
VardaValar1: That was RotK at the end of The Steward and the King.
VardaValar1: but it is sort of repeated in the next chapter by Eomer and Gimli.
ArPharazonV: That passage alone would testify against labelling LotR as black vs white :-)
VardaValar1: Agreed, Phar. :-)
VardaValar1: RotK, Many Partings, about the second page:
VardaValar1: Gimli says to Eomer: "You have chosen the Evening; but my
love is given to the Morning. And my heart forbodes that soon it will
pass away for ever."
VardaValar1: So, we believe we have ammo now for the charges of JRRT's being simplistic? :-)
VardaValar1: *ammo against
karakedi25: That would be the distinction between blackness as emptiness and darkness as the rest of night.
VardaValar1: Well said, Indis! Thank you.
VardaValar1: As another author said, "She walks in beauty like the night."
VardaValar1: Since we seem to have resolved this for now, shall we bang
the gavel before the sun has to go back to work in your morning? :-)
VardaValar1: *swings hammer very fast on one side*
VardaValar1: *brings the hammer down*
VardaValar1: Fly free! Chat, game, sleep, whatever your freedom of will, strength of body, and caring leads you to!
Eonwe Valar: Back
VardaValar1: Aiyata :-)
AriehnV: RIght then .. namarie for now :-) interesting discussion
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Hantal ;} And sleep well Arien :}
VardaValar1: Good night, Arien :-)
Eonwe Valar: Btw, I wanted to make sure everyone knows the Forum
is going to be upgrading to v5 soon. Once this goes live, everyone will
need to set up a Proboards Global Account when they go to log in on the
VardaValar1: Thank you, Eonwe.
Eonwe Valar: The timetable right now is "the next few weeks" so I don't have a specific date, but be prepared :}
Eonwe Valar: MP.
VardaValar1: Fangorn says Hi :-)
VardaValar1: I'll see y'all around. :-)
VardaValar1 has left the room.
karakedi25: take care
Eonwe Valar: Heya to Fangorn and take care :}
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ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript