Valar Guild

September 2, 2012 Sunday Meeting

5pm EDT (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (6)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar, fladrifv, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, VardaValar1 (presiding)

     Bit of membership chat.
Meeting begins
    Games Site Mass Update emails will be going out.
    Angry Birds
    Guild Wars II
    WoW: major changes to the game this patch, many mentioned here, some temporary until the Mists expansion.
    LotRO: beta going strong, live activity also going.
    Forum RP discussion and round robin posting. Straightened out chronology, got the party back together. Discussion of the villains led to researching the Houseless in the books, most found in Morgoth's Ring.
    We researched Houseless (disembodied) elves in the books during the meeting and gave quotes and references for what we found. We also had a side discussion about human ghost (fea) Oath-breakers, and about barrow-wights.
    A little more on the Houseless.
    More on the WoW patch and Darkmoon Faire.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Aiya Golden One! :-)
fladrifv has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Fladrif :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
fladrifv: Aiza
AriehnV has entered the room.
fladrifv: eh Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya Arien!
VardaValar1: Aiya Sunshine :-)
AriehnV: aiya all :-)
AriehnV: how are you guys and gals?
VardaValar1: Enjoying the Labor Day weekend. :-)
VardaValar1: Gilraen had to leave because she and Gwaihir are going out to dinner. :-)
VardaValar1: Sounds like a date!
AriehnV: nice
VardaValar1: Lots of folks travel if they get the full three days off.

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
ArPharazonV: Logging out of WoW now, been rather busy getting my Booty Bay rep back up after reaching Bloodsail exalted on monday.
AriehnV: hehe
AriehnV: if you get your BB rep up dont you lose with the pirates?
karakedi25 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis :-)
ArPharazonV: Depends on what you use to get your BB rep up. Wastewander bandits and venture co goblins don't make you lose bloodsail rep.
karakedi25: Aiya
AriehnV: Aiya Indis
ArPharazonV: But it's rather slow :-)
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: Lots of folks are off doing things ahead of the expansions, trying out other games meanwhile, or traveling. Fortunately we still have enough folks to keep having fun. :-)
VardaValar1: Also meeting new folks who may be joining us in the guild.

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: Nothing new this week on our site.

VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: Any non-WoW, non-LotRO gaming this past week?
ArPharazonV: Angry Birds!
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
AriehnV: bit STO
VardaValar1: hehehe
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe : )
AriehnV: aiya Eonwe
ArPharazonV: Got my hands on a pc-version, so did a bit of that, on top of online flashgames.
VardaValar1: I've tried that before, amusing.
Eonwe Valar: Heya all.
VardaValar1: BroodWar here.
AriehnV: i have got a copy of guild wars II on the way but i am not sure when exactly it will arrive
AriehnV: probably tomorrow i hope
ArPharazonV: good luck with that then, I hope it arrives intact :-)
VardaValar1: Bunch of folks playing Guild Wars 2. Be sure to use our friend channel. Irmo and crew are in it, maybe you can join in with them.
AriehnV: cheers :-)
AriehnV: which server are they?
VardaValar1: You might try asking them in Ventrilo or by email. I don't know,but that is a very good question.
Eonwe Valar: Maybe those playing will answer that question in the GSMU, hehe.
VardaValar1: I should have thought to ask them myself. : )
VardaValar1: Bilbo and Sauron are playing Atlantica Online, mainly because it's free. ;-)
VardaValar1: Eonwe has news related to gaming and to web. Go ahead, Eonwe.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.
Eonwe Valar: Just thought I'd make it officially known that since we're now in September, the GSMU is starting. Letters will be sent out during the week.
ArPharazonV: Guild Wars II has servers?
ArPharazonV: I know that I had everyone connected.
Eonwe Valar: Don't forget all members are requested to answer the GSMU by September 30th. Don't give me gaming info yet though, wait until the letters go out :}
ArPharazonV: 1, that is, not me
VardaValar1: I thought Guild Wars was one big thing, kind of like Battlenet, but don't really know.
ArPharazonV: The first one was.
Eonwe Valar: That's it from me on the GSMU.
VardaValar1: If it has channels, be sure to make our friend channel. :-)
VardaValar1: Thank you, Eonwe
VardaValar1: Our gaming info will be changing with all the expansions coming out too, so a lot would be quickly outdated.
VardaValar1: Fladrif, did you have any gaming news?
VardaValar1: Guess he's afk. :-)

VardaValar1: WoW:
VardaValar1: Eonwe, did you have any WoW news?
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: For those who haven't already been in WoW this week, you should know that Patch 5.0.4 came out, and alot has changed.
ArPharazonV: Like a brand new game!
Eonwe Valar: 1.) Many mounts, pets, and achievments are account-wide now. Make sure you log onto *all* of your characters at least once.
Eonwe Valar: 2.) The old talent system is gone, and has been replaced by one that offers a closer proximity to real options.
Eonwe Valar: Each talent on a tier of three is designed to meet a need. You pick the flavor of meeting that need that fits your preferences.
Eonwe Valar: All your important stuff from the old system was baked into your spec.
karakedi25: Like trait trees in lotro?
Eonwe Valar: Not quite.
Eonwe Valar: In LotRO, you're still picking a set of traits that do different things for different abilities.
Eonwe Valar: In WoW, for the talents now, you get 6 tiers (1 every 15 levels). Each tier is designed for a different need, say for boosting run speed.
Eonwe Valar: One is an on-use ability, one is a passive boost, one is a buff added to an ability you already use.
Eonwe Valar: Whichever way you prefer to get that speed boost, you're still getting a speed boost.
Eonwe Valar: I think you might be able to trade out a single ability rather than the entire tree though, so that would be similar if that's the case. I haven't tested it myself yet though.
ArPharazonV: You can switch out any single talent you want for any other of its tier.
Eonwe Valar: That's what I thought. Thanks Phar.
Eonwe Valar: 3.) Hit and expertise caps were set to 7.5% (melee/Hunters) and 15%( DPS casters) need for raids, strength classes get parry from strength, mana pools have been normalized (int no longers boosts mana), and probably other stat adjustments not immediately jumping to mind.
Eonwe Valar: Yes, Hunters need expertise now :}
Eonwe Valar: 4.) Prime Glyphs removed, Major glyphs offer utility, minor glyphs offer fun.
AriehnV: some awesome fun there
AriehnV: druid stag form for one ^^
AriehnV: the druid turns into a mount for group members :-)
Eonwe Valar: 5.) Guild exp cap removed. Get out there and level us up on Lothar :}
VardaValar1: heh, going to keep us busy. : )
ArPharazonV: Guild exp gain is also greatly increased, from what I can see.
Eonwe Valar: 6.) Many other changes, adjustments, and tweaks, both hamjor and minor. The sooner you pop in and start checking them out, the sooner you'll get used to the new changes :}
Eonwe Valar: *both major and minor
ArPharazonV: Daily quests, for example, have been doubled at least I think
AriehnV: nice
Eonwe Valar: There's also no cap on daily quests any more.
Eonwe Valar: Also of note, that's in effect *only* until the Mists of Pandaria launches..
Eonwe Valar: All gear that was avialable for Valor/Conquest points is now available for Justice/Honor points. So if you wanted to grab a few more pieces for your PvE set, or complete the look of that high end PvP set, now is the time to do it.
ArPharazonV: I'm pretty sure the daily cap persists in Mists.
ArPharazonV: Rhyme unintended.
Eonwe Valar: The Season 11 sets will most likely become completely unavailable when Mists of Pandaria launches, if not as soon as the new PvP season starts.
ArPharazonV: ehrr, the lack of daily cap
Eonwe Valar: Aye, that does.
AriehnV: hehee
Eonwe Valar: Only what I mentioned after saying that is qualified by the statement "until MoP launches" :}
ArPharazonV: Oh, I see.
ArPharazonV: I thought you were referring to the statement above.
Eonwe Valar: That should be enough to get everyone started. I'll let you all get in there and get trying it out to find out more :}
VardaValar1: Thank you, Eonwe. Lots of news there.
Eonwe Valar: Remember: Mists of Pandaria lunaches September 25th :}
Eonwe Valar: *launches

VardaValar1: LotRO:
VardaValar1: The beta continues with the NDA partly lifted.
VardaValar1: We aren't supposed to be posting piles of screenshots or any copy/pastes from the beta forums.
VardaValar1: We are supposed to remember that the expansion is still being built and anything at all may change before live.
karakedi25: And it still needs quite a lot of work.
VardaValar1: In live LotRO, we have folks working on building up their trait caps from 14 to 16.
karakedi25: It was an excellent decision to postpone launch, because when it's ready, it will be super.
VardaValar1: Aye. The Devs have done tons of work already, but the expansion is huge and needs a lot more. Thus the beta is continuing. : )
VardaValar1: Agreed.
VardaValar1: In live LotRO, some sales for storage are going this week, always a plus. A free coupon for a rally horn also, info on our News page, coupon is listed on the kin's message of the day too.
karakedi25: Turbine's been making out like a bandit on me, maxing storage ;-)
VardaValar1: Saturday we ran Tier 2 Forges, helping Hama collect medallions and seals, plus working on the deed and helping him train to be a warden tank.
VardaValar1: hehehe Indis
VardaValar1: Thus seeing a sale on storage is a good thing. : )
VardaValar1: Any other LotRO news?
karakedi25: I don't think so atm.
karakedi25: There will be a lot more to tell as beta develops
AriehnV: been a bit crafting on both my new hunter and the Loremaster
AriehnV: both respectably 12 and 14 with yeoman and woodsman
AriehnV: that the other way round
VardaValar1: Is that on Landroval?
AriehnV: aye and in the guild
AriehnV: just not promoted to Maiya yet ^^
VardaValar1: You were more or less planning to play elsewhere anyway. Not much point.
AriehnV: rerolling the hunter since i was not quite happy with her... maybe i made some mistakes
VardaValar1: Better now?
AriehnV: yip so far :-) still cant kill easy level 10 elites but generally yes
AriehnV: I am still more on Landroval than on Evernight Varda
VardaValar1: ah ok

VardaValar1: Any other business, comments, or suggestions?
ArPharazonV: Hmm... you can rename your companion pets in WoW now, how's that? :-)
AriehnV: :-)
VardaValar1: Neat : )

VardaValar1: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: Haven't mentioned the rp in a while. : )
Eonwe Valar: I've been plotting my next post :}
AriehnV: just wondering how to carry on as its for Elrond to call for the healers report and maybe a night in the golden halls and then the party back on the road somehow
AriehnV: I quite like that Noldo healer .. shame he is no pc .. sigh , i think he deserves to be one
VardaValar1: The story wasn't quite going like I expected, always interesting.
VardaValar1: Morning already happened for Auros
VardaValar1: Daylight was merely fading during Fainan's last post.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, it is the next day (the day after we arrived in Rivendell) for Auros :} Considering my last post started at night, there wasn't much further to go to the next day :}
VardaValar1: Not sure when Meren's post is supposed to be.
karakedi25: Depending on what else happens, I can make it as a retrospective when we meet next (this is what I discovered, this is what i saw in Imladris and am in love....;-) )
Eonwe Valar: I assume that chronologically it would directly proceed yours.
Eonwe Valar: yours = Varda's
VardaValar1: Since we were about to go in search of Auros and it was evening, that puts us out of sync. So maybe we two need stopped by someone?
ArPharazonV: Or you've been spending all night looking for him.
VardaValar1: That would be a waste of research time, was just supposed to be a break.
VardaValar1: We could look fruitlessly and then go back, but it's not moving the story forward.
ArPharazonV: "Oh well, can't find him, let's get back to the library."
VardaValar1: Right, no forward movement.
ArPharazonV: It's worldbuilding! Filling in little details.
Eonwe Valar: He will be more easily found after my next post, hehe.
ArPharazonV: Make it more believable.
AriehnV: maybe Auros can call the guys together again? I suppose he knows my healer maybe?
VardaValar1: Maybe pull together some other story thread?
AriehnV: And Aranwe heads also to Auros to report no?
AriehnV: might give him a hint of the nature of the sword
Eonwe Valar: Aranwe was who again?
karakedi25: arien, are you giving up on frali?
AriehnV: no of course not
Eonwe Valar: ok, Aranwe was the healer.
AriehnV: just would be nice to make more of a person of Aranwe .. somehow he has grown me
AriehnV: yip
Eonwe Valar: He wouldn't be reporting to Auros then, if we're discussing a chain of command.
AriehnV: nah he was heading to Elrond
AriehnV: we have no reaction of Elrond yet
AriehnV: and a back consultation of Elrond with Auros maybe of what has been learnt
AriehnV: Given Aranwes speciality field .. the healing of minds .. he might be handy to have on the road and Indids would have an assistant
karakedi25: Or would she be an assistant to him? He's much older and a *gasp* Noldo
VardaValar1: Mostly on the road we'll be using what we learned from folks like Aranwe, trying to stay alive and do the job.
AriehnV: the question is would he be taken along?
VardaValar1: I don't really see a reason to take him along and risk him. He's a cerebral sort, not really an adventurer like the rest of the party.
VardaValar1: Think he'd be more content at Elrond's
karakedi25: Meren *cough*
VardaValar1: Meren is smart, knows lore, but any Mirkwood elf has seen more adventure in a week than the scholars of Elrond's house have in a year.
karakedi25: fair enough
VardaValar1: *Meren blasts the spider off the flet's edge and continues reading.*
karakedi25: -hehehe
AriehnV: apart from that Aranwe maybe was not always a "cerebral sort"
VardaValar1: Apart from that, we already each have one character to operate. More than that gets messy, from what I've seen in tabletop gaming. : )
karakedi25: agreed
VardaValar1: I'm a bit concerned about Estarion.
VardaValar1: Perhaps an email needs sent to Menelvagor asking if he wants to show Estarion deciding to return to his people or some such.
AriehnV: i see him sometimes in the blizzard menue on Menelvagor but he usually doesnt answer if i whisper him or even send him a scroll of resurrection
AriehnV: on the real id
ArPharazonV: "Estarion, where have you been?" "What do you mean? I've been walking behind you the entire time."
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Aye, that's how we've been playing it so far. : )
AriehnV: but he should write at least him out somehow as its not fair to Estarion to be a silent witness
AriehnV: he should have his own adventure and only Menel can write that
VardaValar1: Agreed, but when I asked about it before he said he'd stay with us.
VardaValar1: Not as if we post at breakneck speed. : )
fladrifv has left the room.
VardaValar1: ok, table that until we can contact Menel.
AriehnV: when i see him on battle net its likely to be him else during the day it might be his brother
AriehnV: but i ll try whispering when i do notice him
VardaValar1: Fainan can just suggest they grab a bite to eat and keep on studying, that she'll try to be patient. That lets Eonwe operate the storyline thread as he planned.
VardaValar1: Or we can bump into Frali who's into something. : )
AriehnV: I can pick up Frali the next morning after having spent a pleasant night in the hall of fire
AriehnV: without posting details of that
AriehnV: but i made it clear at the end of his last post that he intended to do that
AriehnV: Likely it got late and Fainan might see him grab a late breakfast the next day ^^
VardaValar1: ok, so Fainan will just tough it out and stick with the scholar. : )
karakedi25: pooor
karakedi25: f
karakedi25: fainan
ArPharazonV: Not sure what Calion was doing last time I saw him. Probably hanging out with the scholar as well.
VardaValar1: Meren is just such a powerhouse on the study front. : )
ArPharazonV: Or still studying.
VardaValar1: Calion had some mysterious book that might be more interesting to him than exploring the grounds.
VardaValar1: That got my curiosity up.
ArPharazonV: Allright, I'll really need to read up on that.
VardaValar1: Posted. : 0
VardaValar1: This can let Calion either avoid us or come along and tell us what he found out while we're moving, instead of as talking heads.
ArPharazonV: Yes! Incentive to do something. I'll probably join, if I can remember what I'm supposed to have found.
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: What are we supposed to be researching, and what side research might Calion be doing to save his brother?
VardaValar1: That gives us time to get together and start walking before you have to say what you're doing.
karakedi25: Meren is looking up Angmarian sorcery among other things
karakedi25: that will come up as I write
VardaValar1: Maybe their studying will mesh.
VardaValar1: *Fainan munches a cinnamon roll and tries to listen to the erudite scholars.*
ArPharazonV: Hmm. The last time I posted, I hadn't even started studying yet, it seems.
VardaValar1: Aye. I can change my post if you'd rather he wasn't reading. I was trying to keep as much of the party together as possible. :-)
ArPharazonV: A book on the Houseless, apparently.
ArPharazonV: No, it's fine. He's supposed to have been reading.
ArPharazonV: But I feel like I've been out of it for a while, and now I need to consider what exactly he has been reading and finding out.
ArPharazonV: I'll try to get something out this week.

ArPharazonV: It would be good to know what *we* actually know about the Houseless, from Tolkien's works.
ArPharazonV: Where were they canonically mentioned?
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth's Ring is the only place they're mentioned by that name at least.
Eonwe Valar: At least as far as I recall. I know the name isn't used in Hobbit, LotR, or Sil.
AriehnV: any other names then?
VardaValar1: We've all been out of it a while. Time to get us all thinking again, aye.
Eonwe Valar: I don't recall 'the Houseless" being mentioned in any of those three books off the top of my head.
ArPharazonV: I'll go fetch Morgoth's Ring, then, see what we can find out.
AriehnV: I found this on the internet
ArPharazonV: Hmm, a "houseless" (no capital H) seems to refer to an Elf whose body has died, while the fëa can't die, so it's removed from its house.
VardaValar1: Right
Eonwe Valar: Posted. Auros can now be found by anyone who happens to have walked through Elrond's House during the morning hours, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: "Have you seen the guy named Auros?" "Sure, a friend of a friend of a cousin saw him walk in a few hours ago. Maybe my brothers sister's nephew's cousin knows where he is now." hehe
AriehnV: llol
ArPharazonV: "But in this state they were open to the direct instruction and command of the Valar. As soon as they were disbodied they were summoned to leave the places of their life and death and go to the 'Halls of Waiting': Mandos, in the realm of the Valar."
Eonwe Valar: Aye, the Houseless are Elves who have been physically slain, still want a body, but are not willing to go through the legitimate channels to get one.
ArPharazonV: I don't see anything about what happens to those who disobey the summons.
AriehnV: but it was more of an option not a must
Eonwe Valar: It was an imperitive, but as with anything else, you can refuse to obey an imperitive.
AriehnV: some of them obiously decided to stay in the places where they stayd in life but it was forbidden to communicate with those who refused to go to mandos
ArPharazonV: Ah, a few pages after.
AriehnV: it was these *disobedient" fear who sauron probably sought to control and maybe managed with some
AriehnV: hence the title "Necromancer*
AriehnV: according to the Tolkien gateway
ArPharazonV: Looks like it's mostly common among those who refused the summons to Aman when still alive, so mostly Avari.
VardaValar1: oh ho! Maybe that's in Estarion's agenda. He may be concerned about some elves he knew.
ArPharazonV: And it was much less common while Morgoth and later Sauron were in Arda, more common after both were gone. So after our time.
VardaValar1: That could give Estarion a nice plot hook into the main plot.
VardaValar1: Hmm, so uncommon. Maybe it was someone he knew and cared about, or a leader or teacher type.
ArPharazonV: "Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone."
VardaValar1: That really is scary.
ArPharazonV: Hmm, this is interesting...
Eonwe Valar: The fact that they refused to obey the summons and regain a body legitimately already said something about them.
ArPharazonV: "To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own's will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant."
VardaValar1: Aye, already have a wrong bent.
Eonwe Valar: Afk for a moment.
VardaValar1: The necromancers are of Sauron, who is also called The Necromancer.
ArPharazonV: What if our sorcerer, as a servant of Sauron, had picked up this necromancy and either has been taught, or is directly using, a Houseless he himself called up, to possess Calaron?
VardaValar1: Now we have something.
VardaValar1: So that book Calion is reading is called Morgoth's Ring? ;-)
VardaValar1: Maybe this one was swayed by the idea of being given a new elven body not even slightly decomposed.
ArPharazonV: Using some sort of faded houseless fëa as a medium to depart from his own mortal hroa and take over that of an Elf, or having in the past studied these Houseless fear in order to learn their abilities for himself, so he could move freely outside his body without the use of a Houseless.
VardaValar1: Calaron won't leave willingly, so maybe the sorceror needs a place of power to finish ousting him.
ArPharazonV: If the former, then yes, the offer would indeed be Calaron's body, and both the sorcerer and the Houseless would now be residing within Calaron, though the Houseless doesn't seem to have any influence.
ArPharazonV: The Houseless might be trapped inside the ring.
VardaValar1: The houseless might merely have been offered, once they have enough elves.
ArPharazonV: If the latter, the sorcerer is now practically a Houseless of his own, though not one by any "natural" means, since he is not an elf.
VardaValar1: And they are probably going to want to grab more elf bodies. Auros, Calion both look good for that.
ArPharazonV: Hmm, in your idea, the Houseless itself does not have a body of its own yet?
ArPharazonV: Hovering around Calaron, waiting for the promise to be fulfilled.
ArPharazonV: "it will enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them."
ArPharazonV: Maybe the sorcerer *is* a Houseless. Maybe he is not originally a mortal human, but took over a human body when Elves were not readily available, and used it to advance his sorcerous powers.
ArPharazonV: Becoming a powerful servant under Sauron's teachings, both in spirit and (stolen) body.
ArPharazonV: So many theories possible.
ArPharazonV: Any thoughts?
Eonwe Valar: Back.
Eonwe Valar: A couple of thoughts.
Eonwe Valar: (I've already read and caughtup, hehe)
VardaValar1: Well, you said two in the Hall of Fire, might be three or four of us. : ) May have to modify the post later.
Eonwe Valar: No, the two in my post are two scouts.
VardaValar1: Phar has some good stuff there that we might be discussing.
VardaValar1: Ah ok.
Eonwe Valar: Elves of RIvendell who were sent out along a different path from Auros.
VardaValar1: We may be at another table nearby.
Eonwe Valar: Thoughts:
VardaValar1: Getting the party together again. : )
Eonwe Valar: 1.) You haven't, so far as I've noticed, quoted the part where it says the Houseless has to be allowed into the Hroa by the Hroa's natural inhabitant before it can do anything with the body at all.
VardaValar1: So Calaron was tricked into agreement somehow. That could be an interesting story bit right there. You guys may be facing similiar entrapment.
ArPharazonV: True. That was actually right before my last quote. It didn't seem too relevant, since at the time I was quoting it I thought the sorcerer had some skills of his own to add to that of a Houseless, as well as the conduit of a ring.
Eonwe Valar: 2.) Just because one Houseless got in doesn't necessarily mean that another fëa could ride in on his coattails, so to speak.
ArPharazonV: So he might have overcome that condition.
VardaValar1: Or we just have the Sorceror there, and he's showing some Houseless types that he can offer them excellent bodies if they do as he says.
ArPharazonV: Yes. One theory is that the Sorcerer used the Houseless he's called to "learn" how to take over a body. Using a lesser ring of unspecified power might be enough to overcome the difficulty of having to be welcomed. Truth is, we don't really know what they can do, and to not even consider breaking one of these rules seems unnecessary.
VardaValar1: Aye, if we can keep to canon, that's good, and it helps us learn what's in canon.
ArPharazonV: Canonically, a Houseless needs to be accepted by its host as it requests shelter. We need to find a way to bypass this, since Calaron would not have accepted it. How? We have a sorcerer, servant of Sauron, skilled in dark powers, with a ring and a staff. Is there not some way he could have some skill or ability surpassing that of a normal houseless, to gain forced entry?
Eonwe Valar: 3.) While we have evidence of human ghosts (The Oathbreakers who met Aragorn at the Stone of Erech), I'm not convinced that the condition of being "Houseless" is not unique to Elves due to their nature. It seems to me humans purposely trying to extend their stay in Arda would go the way of Nazgul rather than ghosts.
ArPharazonV: I've gone with the ring as a gateway, since it was placed on Calaron to facilitate the possession.
VardaValar1: So Eonwe, the sorceror would need to be an elf? This could be a clue for us.
Eonwe Valar: I think any way a fëa would be able to gain entry to another fëa's natural body would by necessity include permission, whether implicit or explicit.
karakedi25: would they have the choice to go Nazgul? Many wouldn't even know about sauron
Eonwe Valar: And by "I think" I should say "I'm convinced" based on the general tone of the story itself towards free will.
ArPharazonV: Aye, Eonwe, which is why it might be possible that the sorcerer was once a Houseless himself, who found himself in the service of Sauron, and once took over a mortal body or something because Elven bodies weren't easily found, or, at least, entered.
VardaValar1: So the ring pulls off some kind of trickery, making him think he's saying no when he's saying yes by confusing terms.
ArPharazonV: That works, Varda, I suppose.
VardaValar1: The Nazgul became what they were by the rings they wore, a different case.
VardaValar1: Just tossing ideas out there til we find one or a combo that works.
Eonwe Valar: My point about Nazgul could also be seen in references to mortals trying to live in Aman.
VardaValar1: The ring that Phar is talking about might have some similar mechanic to the Nazgul rings.
ArPharazonV: I do consider the sorcerer at the start of our story having a human body. I think he must have been houseless, recruited by Sauron, and then took over a human body. If he had his own elven body he would 1) not have any experience or knowledge of being a houseless and 2) probably not much reason to serve Sauron; or, for that matter, to switch bodies.
VardaValar1: Maybe a Saruman knock-off ring that doesn't work as well?
VardaValar1: Since we're by Dol Guldur, it's more likely stuff that is in Sauron's line of work rather than Saruman's.
ArPharazonV: So what did Calion find in these books? Probably not Morgoth's Ring, but a book that has the same knowledge and some more.
ArPharazonV: Perhaps he found the thing about having to be accepted, and realized Calaron was tricked by the ring somehow.
ArPharazonV: Perhaps some details about the way the Houseless attempts to evict its host's original fëa, realizing that the sorcerer would need more power to do so, and that's why he's going to Angmar.
VardaValar1: Maybe some way to get past the trick, if we know what the trick was. Maybe the book suggests a few tricks.
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: Yes. Perhaps a way to use the ring to our advantage to draw the sorcerer back out.
VardaValar1: But we need our lore-master to help us figure out which of the tricks it is by some tests, which she's digging out of the books.
VardaValar1: and she needs some info from a weaponmaster to help with that.
VardaValar1: And the trick can be reverse-engineered by a weaponmaster if a lore-master is around to aid on the enchanted part while he's doing the physicial part.
VardaValar1: Is that enough food for thought for considering our next posts for now?
ArPharazonV: Yes. I'll try to get one up during the week. If you're eager to go ahead, though, you're allowed to assume that I've said yes to your offer and am coming along.
VardaValar1: ok, thanks. :-)
VardaValar1: We can also just say we went and decide that was so pleasant that we'll breakfast in the Hall of Fire in the morning too, and then spot Auros.
VardaValar1: Tie it in.
ArPharazonV: Maybe, and I can share the exposition again that morning when the group's together. "Look, Auros, Calion found some interesting things last night! Go ahead, Calion, tell him!"
VardaValar1: hehehe
VardaValar1: We can also be discussing what we found out overnight and want to grab our weaponsmith buddy to help us with that trick business.
VardaValar1: help figure it out
VardaValar1: If you want to, you can make one of my famous super-short posts and agree to go with us to grab a bite.
ArPharazonV: Haha, sure. Want me to do so now?
ArPharazonV: And I'll end with "As they walked away, he said 'Oh, listen to what I found.."
VardaValar1: Great!
VardaValar1: Then I'll post the bit where we go back in the morning. And Fainan may even decide hunting down info like this with friends isn't so bad after all. Character development.
Eonwe Valar: Pardon, got caught up looking for something in Morgoth's Ring.
VardaValar1: Sounds like a good thing to do, Eonwe. : )
Eonwe Valar: Whether this Houseless was admitted to enter Calaron's hora, whether intentionally or unintentionally, Calaron still has the chance to wrest his body back, though even if he finally wins it may still cause great injury to his hroa.
Eonwe Valar: *Calaron's hroa
ArPharazonV: Any idea what this "chance" could be?
ArPharazonV: Because he hasn't been doing a good job so far.
Eonwe Valar: "For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fëa from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its rightful inhabitant."
VardaValar1: His chance is if some of us outside give him something to grab onto and pull himself out.
Eonwe Valar: The fact that Calaron's fëa is still apparently in there says he hasn't given up the fight even if he's on the ropes.
VardaValar1: So which of us is pretty good as a medic? Lore-master plus our field-medicine may be enough to get him alive back to Elrond, a great healer.
VardaValar1: If we help Calaron, we may also defeat the sorceror in the process, or try to find a way to damage him severely too.
VardaValar1: or outright send him on to the after-life.
Eonwe Valar: Well considering the Houseless would probably have a hard time keeping outsiders from foiling his plans *and* keeping control of a body that the rightful inhabitant is fighting for...
VardaValar1: and the sorceror is in there messing around too, may have some crossfire going.
Eonwe Valar: I think the fact we'd be working against him at all would offer enough opportunities for the rightful owner to contest for mastery of his body.
VardaValar1: Go go Calaron. :-)
VardaValar1: and if the sorceror is distracted at the last minute by that pack of vengeful wolves... :-)
Eonwe Valar: Hold on. are we going with that 2 ëar thing?
Eonwe Valar: *fëar
VardaValar1: not sure. Whether the sorceror is in or out of Calaron's hroa, the wolf pack would distract him.
ArPharazonV: I think we're going with the sorcerer being a Houseless all along, though up to recently he was inhabiting a human body as Sauron's servant.
ArPharazonV: Not a human soul riding along on a Houseless fea.
karakedi25: so he's a corrupt elf?
Eonwe Valar: I think the single spirit is enough to deal with, both story-wise and canon-wise, and another spirit in the same mix is just going to make things weirder, more difficult, and is quite probably extraneous.
ArPharazonV: Originally, yes, an elf. A flawed, dar, Houseless elf, who has been enslaved by Sauron and now serves him willingly.
VardaValar1: aye, that had a human body but is now trying to learn from another Houseless how to get into an elf body.
ArPharazonV: I think we're losing that part, Varda, if he is a Houseless already, he wouldn't need to learn from another one.
VardaValar1: He might plan to eject the Houseless one from Calaron before he settles in, or opt for a Noldo body.
VardaValar1: Agreed, unless he forgot while being in a human body, or lost some ability while in it.
ArPharazonV: Elf dies -> Houseless -> enslaved by Sauron -> steals human host, since Elves aren't easy to invade -> kicks out original human fea -> in following decades he finds or is given a lesser ring, while learning sorcery from Sauron or something -> uses ring to trick and invade Calaron, since his human body is aging.
VardaValar1: Aye, good summary.
Eonwe Valar: At the very least, Auros is too proud to be stupid enough to fall for whatever stunt a Houseless may pull, heh. I'd like to think he's just smart enough and been around long enough to know better though.
karakedi25: how likely is it that evan a Houseless elf would be corrupted by Sauron?
VardaValar1: Be fun to see Auros slap it down. : )
Eonwe Valar: One sec, I have quotes marked for that, Indis.
ArPharazonV: No need for him to be calling another Houseless to do so. The Ring, the pressure of his mortal body dying (as Pharazon, I know all about this), and a physically powerful Elf might be enough incentive to move to a new host.
ArPharazonV: Houseless elves have been enslaved and taught by Sauron. It might be that the time in a mortal body (or multiple mortal bodies in succession) was enough for the Houseless to attain human traits, perhaps picked up from the hosts' original feas. Among these traits, a desire for power and willingness to serve Sauron in exchange for that power.
ArPharazonV: And Elves themselves have been known to crave power and dominion for themselves as well, and not just Dark Elves. Galadriel too went to Middle-earth in order to establish a realm for herself, I believe.
karakedi25: but she was not corrupt
VardaValar1: The sorceror simply is calling Houseless ones to work for him, offering elven bodies and showing they can oust a live elf's fea using his handy dandy system.
ArPharazonV: No, she was not. But he might have become so.
ArPharazonV: So he is not a Houseless himself, then, Varda?
ArPharazonV: Posted.
Eonwe Valar: "The fëa is single, and in the last impregnable. It cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned; and the summons proceeds from just authoirty, and is imperitive; yet it may be refused..It was less frequent, however, in ancient days, while Morgoth was in Arda, or his servant Sauron after him; for then the fåa unbodied would flee .... unless it were already committed to the Darkness and passed then into its dominion." In like manner even of the Eldar some who had become corrupted refused the summons, and then had little power to resist the countersummons of Morgoth."
VardaValar1: The sorceror story is fine, just agreeing he's collecting minions
Eonwe Valar: There's one. I should have another similar, that basically says what I commented on earlier, that it says something about the Elf already if he's willing to refuse the summons of Mandos.
ArPharazonV: True. We don't know how old this Houseless is. He might even have been a servant of Morgoth in the First Age. One of the Elves he captured and corrupted, perhaps.
Eonwe Valar: Here we go, this one will do.. "Indeed the refusal of the summons is in itself a sign of taint."
VardaValar1: A fea pre-disposed to disobedience to the side of Manwe.
VardaValar1: There you go, pre-tainted.
ArPharazonV: Sounds good. And being used to a few generations of human hosts might have some effect on him as well.
Eonwe Valar: I think the Second Age when Sauron was going about as Annatar offers plenty of chance for him to convince Elves he's got a way to let them stay in Middle-Earth no matter what as well. After all, after spending all that time making Middle-Earth like Aman (supposedly), why would you want to risk "accidentally" dying and ending up in Aman?
VardaValar1: There have been elves killed in the recent battles too. Some may be feeling anger, perhaps feeling the elves of Middle-earth have been abandoned.
VardaValar1: Maybe one of these Houseless Ones is known to Estarion, and he's seeking him/her, trying to help him/her towards redemption.
ArPharazonV: There you go. Plenty of reason for a Houseless to serve Sauron.
Eonwe Valar: There *are* the barrow wights too,... I don't recall anything absolutely definitive about the spirits that inhabited those bodies, just generically called "spirits."
Eonwe Valar: I know I've seen them discussed somewhere in HoME, but it would take me too long to dig up for this chat, heheh.
Eonwe Valar: A note on something Phar said about: Desire, even for power, is not a strictly human trait, and as the mention of Annatar shows, there's plenty of reason to turn to serving Sauron :}
Eonwe Valar: Nevermind, Phar covered that, heh.
ArPharazonV: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Missed it my first read-through.
karakedi25: barrow wights were men of rhudaur, I believe
VardaValar1: Posted
Eonwe Valar: Appendix A says "evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur."
VardaValar1: That should set up everyone for a post that wants to make one. : )
VardaValar1: Barrow-wights, aye on the quote.
karakedi25: will look when I get a chance
ArPharazonV: The transition is a bit odd. I know we've skipped a period wherein we went out for a snack, came back, and continued our studies, because we've discussed it in this thread, but it might be less clear for any reader.
ArPharazonV: ehrr
ArPharazonV: in this meeting
VardaValar1: Ok - so re-word it?
VardaValar1: I admit to slapping it up fast. : )
VardaValar1: My barrow-wight article is a tad lengthy.
ArPharazonV: Well it might be just me, of course. It might be obvious to anyone else. Think it's rewordable without changing too much?
VardaValar1: I can make super-drastic changes all over the place at will. : )
ArPharazonV: I don't even know if we have any readers outside the participants ;-)
VardaValar1: We do
VardaValar1: ahh, I see what you mean, I think.
AriehnV: short but sweet Frali post and .. so much for a "fresh and rested mind" , grin
VardaValar1: That should help the transition. Left out an entire scene. *cough*
VardaValar1: uh oh. :-)
ArPharazonV: Ah, that's great, Varda :-)
VardaValar1: Called elleth "women". *gasp* :-)
VardaValar1: Thanks for the good catch, Phar.
VardaValar1: Frali's been partying. : )
ArPharazonV: So Frali also has not a brain that has had some sleep?
VardaValar1: Calion is with us too, if you want to mention.
VardaValar1: yep, just like the rest of us. : )
AriehnV: aye after rejoining with his kin after several months why not
VardaValar1: We can only hope Auros slept a little.
ArPharazonV: We could always pretend I was just visiting the breakfast buffet at the exact moment Frali came in ;-)
VardaValar1: Luckily we don't need a lot of sleep, but if we find traveling to be more restful, we may be in trouble. ^^
VardaValar1: You're with us, Calion. : )
VardaValar1: As a guy, maybe you don't get a bow. ;-)
ArPharazonV: Ah, that must be it.
VardaValar1: A wave, a punch in the shoulder... : )
ArPharazonV: A slap on the back.
ArPharazonV: Frali has been drinking, after all.
AriehnV: so Calion is included now :-)
VardaValar1: There we go. : )
VardaValar1: We definitely needed this bonding time if only so Frali can get our names straight. : )
AriehnV: ooh cat claims her chair i am afraid .. has been trying for a while in fact lol
VardaValar1: Heya cat. : )
VardaValar1: Will you be typing for our sleepy Arien? : )
AriehnV: she cant type i am afraid hehe .. will be something like iiiiii ooooooooooooooooooooooodd
VardaValar1: oops : )
AriehnV: hehe i ll read up what you produced tomorrow :-D
AriehnV: good night for now
VardaValar1: Rest well, Sunshine. : )
AriehnV: Namarie :-)
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well, belatedly, Arien, hehe.
VardaValar1: Yay for transcripts. : )
VardaValar1: *raises gavel*
VardaValar1: *tinnnnng*

VardaValar1: After-meeting!
VardaValar1: AIM seemed stable tonight.
ArPharazonV: aye
Eonwe Valar: OK found what I was looking for earlier, what I was referring to when I mentioned Nazgul and Aman. It's in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, Text XI, for those who want to read over it. It's not long to read, too long to quote :}

Eonwe Valar: A note for those trying to do the Darkmoon Faire stuff in WoW today: Apparently they didn't reset properly, but they're working on it.
ArPharazonV: Yeah, noticed it, the profession quests hadn't reset yet.
Eonwe Valar: Afk for a few minutes. I must divert my attention elsewhere.
VardaValar1: Thanks for the references. Working on supper here.
VardaValar1: Also starting the WoW patch
ArPharazonV: patch? You've not tested it yet?
VardaValar1: Not yet
ArPharazonV: Good luck adjusting then :-)
VardaValar1: *gulp*
VardaValar1: From what you guys said, it's a lot of adjusting.
VardaValar1: This time, WoW is downloading the patch. Just had to close some stuff. : )
ArPharazonV: Great :-)
VardaValar1: oboy - a 15 to 60 minute optimization now.
ArPharazonV: Yeah. That took me a few hours. And then I decided to close my browser, and it sped up a little bit.
VardaValar1: Only thing up now is that and AIM.
VardaValar1: Good to hear.
VardaValar1: AIM is lagging badly, going to pull out of that too. :-(
ArPharazonV: Aw.
VardaValar1: Namarie for now, my friends. : )
ArPharazonV: Well I'm going to be off to sleep in a few minutes too.
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
VardaValar1: Good idea in any case, Phar. : )
VardaValar1: Sleep well or at least sleep fast!
VardaValar1 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript