November 25, 2012 Sunday Meeting
5pm EST (GMT - 5)
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AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
Transcript work by Ar-Pharazon and Varda.
AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), fladrifv, Gilraen-(V)/Iryenth, Glorfindel VG, VardaValar1
Topic: What did Manwe do?
New post-production Hobbit movie video link
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya to Ar-Pharazon the Golden. :-)
VardaValar1: Still 13 minutes yet, a little early.
ArPharazonV: Better early than late.
VardaValar1: Aye aye!
VardaValar1: You still have some time for whatever you're doing. : )
ArPharazonV: that would be going for the axe of the thunder king
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: Aiya all :-)
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Glorfindel VG has entered the room.
fladrifv has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
AriehnV: aiya both?
Glorfindel VG: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: I trust everyone had a good Thanksgiving? Thoughs of us in the US anyway :}
Eonwe Valar: Thoughs = Those
Iryenth has entered the room.
AriehnV: habby thanksgiving to you then
Iryenth: Aiya all
Eonwe Valar: Heya GIlraen
ArPharazonV: And happy past week thanksgiving for the Americans :-)
AriehnV: aiya Gilraen and Varda
VardaValar1: Eonwe will have the gavel today. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Let's go ahead and being.
Eonwe Valar: *begin
Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: Thanksgiving (US) was this past Thursday. I trust everyone
there was properly thankful and properly fed with plenty of leftovers,
VardaValar1: We were. And happy to have visits from Elwing-(V) and Meriadoc-(V). :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other Membership news?
VardaValar1: Eowyn-(V) moved into her new house.
VardaValar1: Tulkas should be able to go home in about a week. He's
been seeing the lights from the windows of home from his ship.
Eonwe Valar: Welcome home to them both :}
ArPharazonV: Go into the light?
Eonwe Valar: Web:
Eonwe Valar: Nothing from me,... yet.
VardaValar1: Nothing here. We could use articles, etc. You know the spiel. : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: Something missed last week was the ICC10 Heroic run we
completed the previous Sunday. Eonwe, Glorfindel, and Bofur, with Guild
friends Kaz and Xorr (Glorfindel's brother) got through ICC10 Heroic
with little issue, and all but four of the Achievements.
Eonwe Valar: Xorr was on a lvl 80 too, so it wasn't 5 90s even, hehe.
ArPharazonV: Died the most, then? :-)
Eonwe Valar: Not much.
Eonwe Valar: We got most of the enemies before they got any of us.
Eonwe Valar: Lich King proved to be the tough guy, hehe.
ArPharazonV: As one would expect.
AriehnV: did you get him in the end?
Eonwe Valar: Aye, we got him :}
AriehnV: nice :-D
Eonwe Valar: You'll see that on the Lothar Events page... Sooon :}
Eonwe Valar: Also, I hope you all logged in for WoW's 8th Anniversary.
Eonwe Valar: You've got until December 1st.
ArPharazonV: All 16 or so of my characters. They might be lvl 1 and
only logged in once a year, but I won't deny them those achievements.
Eonwe Valar: If the mail looks familiar, it's because it was last year's. Apparently that was a bug, and it can't be fixed.
ArPharazonV: It speaks of Deathwing and the Shattering. Yeah...
VardaValar1: The pandas were too embarrassed to speak up?
Eonwe Valar: The token itself is unfortunately not terribly useful for
90, because the rep bonus it gives is for rep on kills, and there's all
of two situations at 90 where that would be beneficial.
VardaValar1: Nice for those trying to reach 90?
Eonwe Valar: The experience bonus helps those levelling.
Eonwe Valar: That's also only on kills.
ArPharazonV: I'm thinking Black Prince reputation is one of those 2 situations, Eonwe?
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Phar.
ArPharazonV: Aaand... heroics?
ArPharazonV: Which probably means Tushui rep.
Eonwe Valar: The other one being getting old reps and Alliance/Horde faction reps up.
Eonwe Valar: I guess Guild rep *could* be another one if you weren't already exalted by 90.
Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: First and foremost, if you wanted one of the fancy
for-money versions of Riders of ROhan, now is the time to get them.
They're on sale for 50% off.
Eonwe Valar: That's 34.99 for the Legendary Edition, which is normally 69.99
VardaValar1: Nice Thanksgiving present, that. : )
Eonwe Valar: Aye, hehe.
VardaValar1: As Tulkas says, we're "Rebuilding Hytobold, 5 tokens at a time".
Eonwe Valar: Anything else to add for LotRO, Varda?
VardaValar1: A number of us have hit the cap level of 85,
VardaValar1: and completed the new Hytbold armor set or made significant strides towards it.
VardaValar1: It requires reps and numerous quests including rebuilding parts of the town of Hytbold for different items.
VardaValar1: Some of us run together spontaneously during the week.
VardaValar1: Three-manned Moria quests for Merry, Hamson, and Varda.
VardaValar1: A lot of duoing in low and high area quests.
VardaValar1: Jumping in together to kill Warbands in the high level Rohan area
VardaValar1: Some skraiding (skrimish raiding) instances at level 85
together and with others to go for the barter token for Second Age
items and other goodies.
VardaValar1: That's my report.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.
Eonwe Valar: SC2:
Eonwe Valar: The first Expansion, Heart of the Swam, has been announced and will release in March 2013.
ArPharazonV: Swarm, yes
Eonwe Valar: *Swarm, yes, thanks.
ArPharazonV: Heart of the Swann. In which we explore the anatomy of Wings of Liberty's chief engineer.
Eonwe Valar: Heh.
Eonwe Valar: Any other Gaming news? Anyone play anything besides WoW and LotRO?
AriehnV: nope ^^
VardaValar1: BroodWar - lots of it at my house with Valarites of family and visitors.
VardaValar1: SC2 for Bilbo
ArPharazonV: Ehh, more flashgames, though it has been a busy week, and I think I'm behind on a few.
VardaValar1: STO for Sauron
Eonwe Valar: No other gaming?
VardaValar1: SC2 for Sauron too
ArPharazonV: I pre-ordered the Heart of the Swarm Collector's Edition, and because of the store I did it from, apparently I'm now in possession of a beta-key.
ArPharazonV: I'm not sure if I'll use it though.
ArPharazonV: Betas really aren't my thing.
Eonwe Valar: Understandable.
Eonwe Valar: I find myself with one too. I might use it, if I have time.
Eonwe Valar: OK, time for Tolkien :}
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
Eonwe Valar: Whisper me Tolkien topics now, or face the Wheel of Tolkien :}
Eonwe Valar: Anyone here *not* read the Silmarillion? :}
AriehnV: tis been a while but i read it :-)
Eonwe Valar: Anyone here say Helcaraxë :}
VardaValar1: Helcaraxe (brrr)
VardaValar1: Helcaraxë :}
Eonwe Valar: So only 3 of us here? :}
Eonwe Valar: Varda tells me last week "Manwe's role" was suggested as a topic.
AriehnV: Helcaraxe btw
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: Actually last week was your trivia question:
VardaValar1: Which Vala or Valie was the lead in the Second Theme that arose against Melkor's after the First was drowned out?
VardaValar1: It seemed worth going into Manwe's role a bit more.
Eonwe Valar: Ah.
VardaValar1: Could be a good deal of speculation, since we haven't hit the end of time yet.
Eonwe Valar: Well, Manwë as a "Man of Action" seems to be limited
to dealing with Melkor/Morgoth. Some discussion of Manwë in HoME
lends credence to this, if we want to bring those into this scope.
VardaValar1: The Music suggests that Manwe would be the real hero in the fight against Melkor and the evil continuing after him.
ArPharazonV: Well his eagles sure get around, if that helps?
VardaValar1: It does. Manwe is not supposed to leave Mount Taniquetil until he goes in person to fight Morgoth.
Eonwe Valar: That's not to say he doesn't still take a hand in things,
of course. He's got responsibilities as the Elder King and ruler of the
Realm of Arda, after all.
VardaValar1: The eagles and his way of seeing nearly everything extend
his reach. Also having his wife that hears everything. (Get off the
VardaValar1: He coordinates the actions of the residents of Valinor. He surely knew what Ulmo was up to.
VardaValar1: Sauron was an extension of Morgoths' will, as the Istari were of Manwe's
ArPharazonV: If you consider everything that the eagles do in the books
we know, as being an extension of Manwe's actions, Manwe seems to be
around for critical moments against Sauron, anyway; like rescuing
Gandalf from Orthanc or Bilbo and the Ring from the goblins and wolves,
if I remember right?
VardaValar1: When Sauron and Saruman lost their physical forms, a cold wind from the West blew their more ghostly forms away.
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar
ArPharazonV: That also, Varda :-)
VardaValar1: Gandalf didn't know about the One Ring but said that Bilbo was "meant to have it". So it wasn't Gandalf's doing.
ArPharazonV: So who's doing was it exactly?
VardaValar1: Had to be Valinorean in origin, but it doesn't say exactly who. One assumes Manwe signed off on it at least.
VardaValar1: Pretty drastic decision.
VardaValar1: Back when the One Ring was in the River Anduin, Ulmo probably knew about it.
Eonwe Valar: It *could* be Manwë, but it's been pretty strongly
hinted at and even shown that Eru takes action in Ea as well.
VardaValar1: Eru generally takes action through others, and Manwe is the closest to the mind of Eru. It could've been Eru, aye.
VardaValar1: Eru took direct action when the Valar stepped aside,
rending Valinor from Middle-earth by making Arda round. Ships and an
island were sunk in the process.
ArPharazonV: "takes action through others" sure, but that doesn't have
to be Manwë, the fate of the Ring is bound to the actions of a
good amount of individuals acting in their own way.
VardaValar1: Since they stepped aside for that, it makes me wonder if he normally worked through them.
ArPharazonV: What would've happened if Smeagol hadn't gone in that particular cave system?
VardaValar1: Smeagol was boating on the Anduin River.
ArPharazonV: After he got the Ring, I mean.
VardaValar1: ahh sorry, right.
VardaValar1: Just happened that Thorin's Company were forced into that
cave area, and Bilbo happened to fall in the dark into the right area.
Just him. And just happened toput his hand on the Ring that was trying
to find an orc to carry it out of there.
ArPharazonV: Valinorean intervention wouldn't have been necessary if
"fate" like this was Eru's decision, as Eru might simply act through
others as in planting suggestions into the heads of the mortals
Eonwe Valar: Normally the governing of Arda is under the Valar's authority. Apparently Eru took a hand with Gandalf, however.
ArPharazonV: Right, Varda.
VardaValar1: Aye, it could've been part of the Music by Eru, that was implemented by the Valinoreans.
VardaValar1: You mean when Gandalf's fea was picked up? He was a Maia,
and one might expect his fea to return to Valinor and be healed.
Eonwe Valar: Well, "planting suggestions" I would use carefully so
phrased. Could someone suddenly get inspired to do something they
wouldn't normally think of doing? Sure, but the choice to do that would
remain with the individual.
VardaValar1: Inspiration has to acted on, agreed.
VardaValar1: Gandalf was very much into inspiring elves, as Olorin,
even before going to Middle-earth in the shape of an old man.
VardaValar1: *to be*
ArPharazonV: Well it only has to be little things.
VardaValar1: A suggestion here and there can be very powerful.
ArPharazonV: In Bilbo's case, it's just a matter of putting your hand 3
centimeters to the right of where he might otherwise have put it, to
find the Ring.
ArPharazonV: In my previous example with Smeagol/Gollum, if he'd taken
another route around that one rock on the way, he might've found a
VardaValar1: And the Ring could be rolled, bounced to where Bilbo would put his hands.
ArPharazonV: These are the little suggestions that might be easily put in by Eru, if things are "fated" to happen.
VardaValar1: Bilbo might've found himself falling into a different cave then. : )
VardaValar1: He put them into his Song, and the Valar were supposed to Sing it, make it happen.
VardaValar1: So Eru could have done it directly or by using his Singers.
ArPharazonV: Like Manwe.
VardaValar1: They could have simply watched to see where the Ring
wouund up, then nudged events to follow the intended thread of
VardaValar1: Some kind of protected caves would be in the plan, keeping
the Ring from Sauron, moving it from the original known location of
VardaValar1: Right under his goblins. ^^
VardaValar1: Someone had a sense of humor, maybe? Or it was a very slick way of preventing suspicion of the location.
ArPharazonV: I'm guessing irony.
VardaValar1: Sounds likely.
VardaValar1: Also helps keep it from Men, moving into the area.
Eonwe Valar: The problem with that is, their work in *designing* and
shaping the world was done long before Sauron thought to create the
Rings of power, and had been disrupted and destroyed a few times over.
VardaValar1: They could be watching to see where the Ring went, and
maybe nudging it away from view, could have been something the
Valinoreans had a hand in, and nudging travel direction using their
Gandalf agent, to make sure Bilbo would get it.
ArPharazonV: Are you saying that the Song as originally performed
cannot include this version of the world and the Rings that were only
VardaValar1: Ok, that was an awkward sentence, pardon.
VardaValar1: Valinoreans didn't have to be restricted just to the original building of Arda.
ArPharazonV: Ah, but how about Eru? Was his influence restricted to the
Music, or also to the realization of Arda? Besides the time when he
directly interfered at the end of the Second Age?
VardaValar1: Using the Istari was exceptionally hands-on. Most of the
time, they probably moved in more unseen ways. Like their "calling" of
the meeting of Elrond to bring the Fellowship together.
VardaValar1: Eru knew things he never told the Valar.
VardaValar1: They only saw part of the vision.
Eonwe Valar: What I'm saying, based on how I'm reading the comments, is
that the Valar could not have planned for the eventualality of the
Rings of Power in their original implementation. Their goal was to
produce something "unmarred" and Melkor/his minions spent their time
marring it. By the time the Eruhini are on the scene, the Valar aren't
shaping Arda any more.
Eonwe Valar: *in their( the Valar's) original implementation, to be clear
VardaValar1: Aye. They weren't doing the macro-building anymore.
VardaValar1: But they could still tweak events.
ArPharazonV: Was the marring not present in the original Song, and did they not react to it?
ArPharazonV: In the Song, that is.
VardaValar1: That was Melkor's music, causing the marring. and there were reactions to it.
ArPharazonV: Reactions that can translate to the nudging of a Ring? :-)
VardaValar1: So Melkor could push Isildur's demise, and the reaction music could push the Ring to Bilbo. Aye.
Eonwe Valar: The Ring was also trying to escape.
VardaValar1: That would be taken into consideration.
ArPharazonV: It really is a very detailed Song, isn't it?
Eonwe Valar: Except for Melkor's part, yes, hehehe.
ArPharazonV: (by the way, http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151345300446807 new post-production Hobbit video)
VardaValar1: In macro-spots that affect the whole of Arda, one can
implicate the Song. The Ring was a major force in those times that they
VardaValar1: Thank you, Phar. : )
VardaValar1: At a glance, I'd call that a troll and victim. : )
Eonwe Valar: The Valar would be seeking a solution to the Ring as
Sauron is in the process of enacting his plan though, not at a time
when Sauron was thought to still be on Aulë's team.
VardaValar1: Trying to finish the movie 2 days before the premiere? eep
ArPharazonV: That's also something. Would Sauron's betrayal be evident
in the Song, and isn't that kind of contradictory if he was present at
the making of it?
ArPharazonV: Exactly when did Sauron betray Aule?
Eonwe Valar: Not all of those he won over were necessarily vocal supporters in his Discord.
Eonwe Valar: "And Melkor knew of all that was done, for even then he
had secret friends and spies among the Maiar whom he had converted to
AriehnV: so Sauron would have been amongst those
Eonwe Valar: That's when the Valar were finishing up with the isle of Almaren.
ArPharazonV: Right. So when Arda was originally being made, Sauron was still on the "good" team.
Eonwe Valar: As I recall from some stuff in HoME, Sauron was still perceived to be with Aulë's team at that point.
ArPharazonV: Which means that there's 2 possibilities that I can see.
Eonwe Valar: And that he was one of those spies.
ArPharazonV: 1) Sauron's betrayal was an element in the Song, and *yet*
nobody suspected him when Arda was actually made and he was still on
the good team.
ArPharazonV: 2) Sauron's betrayal was not expected, which means that
the Akallabeth, the Rings of Power, and everything involved cannot have
been part of the Song.
ArPharazonV: Any comments?
Eonwe Valar: The Song was a blueprint in the making of Arda Unmarred.
ArPharazonV: Ah, but Melkor's influence was also part of the Song, so it must have involved Arda Marred.
Eonwe Valar: Eru showed them the history that would play out based on
the Song, including Melkors Discord, but only to a certain extent and
only up to the arrival of the Children.
AriehnV: it was all "original" and noone but the originators knew the
content of their songs .. but if we consider artistic "inspiration" and
"making up on the spot" even they might not have known
VardaValar1: Lots of things weren't obvious from the Song at first. Ents and Eagles, for instance.
AriehnV: .. improvisation was the word i was looking for
ArPharazonV: So there are parts of the Song that were played by Melkor,
Sauron, Eru, the other Valar... that not even the Valar understood as
they played it?
VardaValar1: Even the Valar singing their own parts didn't see all of what they were doing.
Eonwe Valar: The Valar understand their part. They don't necessarily
understand the parts of the other Ainur, and there were many of them
besides the ones who came to Ea.
AriehnV: try to play Grieg or Muggorsky in an orchestra and tell me it makes sense for you :-P
Eonwe Valar: The Ainur are still finite beings, which means even they have limits.
ArPharazonV: Of course, Arien, but the Ainur *reacted* to elements in
the Song, they improvised, created parts out of their own initiative.
So even if they didn't understand what they reacted to, you'd still
think they'd understand the reactions.
Eonwe Valar: And any time you throw in Free Will, all bets are off.
AriehnV: oh well aye
Eonwe Valar: Give a Dwarf a pick, that mountain you see today may be full of holes tomorrow, hehe.
AriehnV: guess it remains one of the unanswerable mysteries we are presented by Daddy Tolkien :-)
AriehnV: "one carefull hammerfall, one polish at a time and maybe we will extend its beauty in time"
VardaValar1: And Manwe had the fun of having to coordinate the mess in actual implementation.
ArPharazonV: Not an enviable job.
Eonwe Valar: "And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said :'Seest thou not how
here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war
upon they province?
Eonwe Valar: He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet
hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools.
Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised
heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dired up thy desire nor
utterly quelled the music of the sea.
Eonwe Valar: Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the
everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And
in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom
Eonwe Valar: Then Ulmo answered: 'Truly, Water is become now fairer
than my heart imagined, neither had my secret though conceived the
snowflae, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain. I
will seek Manwë, that he and I may make melodies for ever to thy
Eonwe Valar: So Ulmo, the original of water, still didn't plan for everything that that simple molecule we call H20 could be.
Eonwe Valar: *originator
VardaValar1: It even added to Manwe's, and brought Ulmo and Manwe closer.
ArPharazonV: So would it have been in the Song?
VardaValar1: Eru used whatever Melkor tossed in to redound to the glory of Eru.
ArPharazonV: But not to Ulmo's knowledge.
VardaValar1: That is one place where Eru comes in.
AriehnV: if for Melkor in our instance his destruction was joy and his
attacs sounded like harmony to him .. who are we to critizise? apart
from fighting and destroying the results :-D
AriehnV: This was a comment i made to Varda in a side window
Eonwe Valar: We are those whose property he would destroy and wills he would seek to subjugate ;}
VardaValar1: If we're the ones whose music he's wrecking with his, we have that right. : )
Eonwe Valar: Melkor isn't off doing his own thing, his delight is in violating the innate rights of other Beings.
AriehnV: another point i made was that it still sounded good and pompous in his ears and it served his purpose
VardaValar1: True. He's trying to overpower the music and doings of others with his own.
ArPharazonV: His freedom ends where the freedom of others begins?
Eonwe Valar: Note that the problem wasn't that Melkor was contributing
the the Music. He had as much right as any Ainu when Eru told them to
do their thing. The problem was that he decided *only* what he wanted
should be part of the Music, and strated working to shut everyone else
Eonwe Valar: *started
VardaValar1: Melkor caused others' music to falter and even go silent, or join into his instead of the original purpose.
AriehnV: like being loud enough that nothing else could be heard
VardaValar1: His was brassy and without depth, but very loud.
ArPharazonV: Modern music?
VardaValar1: Some of it, heh.
VardaValar1: In all musical periods, there was that which is no longer
played, not standing the test of time. Similarly, Melkor's music will
one day be remade aright, and was even being corrected as it went.
AriehnV: i guess he will be astonished of the result *dry"
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: He wanted to be the only creator. And since he did not
create himself, would eventually have destroyed himself as well as all
other works not created by him.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: If only he'd started with that?
VardaValar1: Good idea.
VardaValar1: There was hope for a time that he'd learn.
AriehnV: but .. if he had started with destroying himself and everything will be remade .. hmph .. bad idea ^^
VardaValar1: Morgoth stood in his own way.
ArPharazonV: Too ambitious for his own good.
VardaValar1: Ambition can be a good thing. Hubris, not so much.
AriehnV: Too much of one thing is never good
AriehnV: as already the old Greeks knew
Eonwe Valar: It's a quarter past 6. Shall we bang the gavel?
VardaValar1: (7 EST)
VardaValar1: Two hours, aye.
ArPharazonV: Quarter past 1 here!
Eonwe Valar: *Bangs Gavel*
Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting:
Eonwe Valar: Feel free to head where ever you need to go :}
VardaValar1: Thank you for staying up late with us, and may it not cause you problems tomorrow!
AriehnV: I am off tomorrow ^^
ArPharazonV: It'll be fine. I've made it later.
AriehnV: just one question .. the customer service page of blizzard doesnt seem to work to set up a new ticket
AriehnV: is it already down for maintenance>?
AriehnV: i ve been contacted by some pfishers i think and i wanted to let blizzard know about them
AriehnV: but there is no way to contact them
AriehnV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: There's one voice in that Hobbit video that I recognize... though probably it's not the one I think it is.
fladrifv has left the room.
VardaValar1: One way to let them know is on the forum.
Eonwe Valar: wb.
ArPharazonV: Oh, and it wasn't him.
VardaValar1: Hantal :-)
Iryenth has left the room.
VardaValar1: See y'all around. :-)
VardaValar1: including the WoW folk: Nob, Glorfindel, and Eonwe right now.
VardaValar1 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript