Valar Guild

May 27, 2012 Sunday Meeting

5pm EDT (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

Back to News
Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (6)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), GwaihirValar, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, VardaValar1

Meeting begins
    Diablo 3
    RP group story discussion with side runs into various things in the books.
    A little more D3 and RP.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya both!
Eonwe Valar: Looks like this ought to be a quick meeting, hehe.
ArPharazonV: Iryenth invited?
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: That's Gilraen
Eonwe Valar: OK, let's go ahead and get moving.

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: Memorial Day weekend in the US. I assume that's why Varda's not here, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: A few birthdays this week.
Eonwe Valar: Fangorn, Haleth, Forlong, and Boromir.
Eonwe Valar: Hurin's surgery appears to have gone well and he's back in LotRO.
Eonwe Valar: Pardon, Gilraen's Birthday was this week too.
Eonwe Valar: Any other membership news?

Eonwe Valar: Web:
karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: aiya
Eonwe Valar: Doesn't appear there's anything new up on the Tolkien Site this week, and I've put up nothing new this week either.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Indis.

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: Eonwe, Arien, Varda, and guild friend Kaz ran through the T4 stuff Saturday for achievements and transmog gear. Got through Gruul's Lair, Magtheridon's Lair, and Karazhan pretty quickly.

Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: Monday Run:
Eonwe Valar: Ran the new instance "Storm on Methedras". We had difficulty with our 4-man, but 3-man is easier and 2-man we zipped right through. Timbridhil turned 75 a few minutes before the run. Gorlim (minstrel Aeronwy), Indis (hunter Tinirian), Melkor (rune-keeper Passim, changed to champion Melcor), and Varda (guardian Timbridhil.) Gorlim's Aeronwy, Melkor's Melcor, and Varda's Timbridhil. Several successful runs with Melkor's champion Melcor and Varda's guardian Timbridhil.
Eonwe Valar: Wednesday Run:
Eonwe Valar: Storm on Methedras 6-man skirmish completed: Galdor (hunter Andwe), Hurin (rune-keeper Hiuro), Indis (hunter Tinirian), Nimrodel (hunter Ardisian), Tulkas (hunter Astald), and Varda (guardian Timbridhil). Tried again with 5 after Astald left (heavy lag with all the soldiers added to the players), and didn't complete. Library completed: Galdor (captain Dolenatan), Nimrodel (hunter Ardisian), and Varda (guardian Timbridhil.)
Eonwe Valar: Saturday Run:
Eonwe Valar: Storm on Methedras 6-man skirmish completed twice with the same group: Gorlim (minstrel Aeronwy), Hurin (captain Hiurred), Irmo (guardian Irmogar), Miriel (minstrel Mahariel), Nimrodel (hunter Ardisian), and Varda (hunter Fainan). Then we went for random skirmishes with the instance finder: The Battle in the Tower completed: Same group except Nimrodel had to leave, replaced by Indis's lore-master Mereniel. Amon Sul completed. Gorlim and Indis had to leave. Then we did Limlight Gorge dailies, something Annael's computer could handle: Annael (burglar Annil), Hurin (captain Hiurred), Irmo (guardian Irmogar), Miriel (minstrel Mahariel), and Varda (hunter Fainan) After that we broke into duos or solos. There *is* a festival going on.
Eonwe Valar: The Spring Festival is also going in LotRO.

Eonwe Valar: Diablo 3:
Eonwe Valar: Members getting together over the week, exchanging battle-tags, running together, etc.
ArPharazonV: I made a young barbarian on the american servers now, and added most people to friendslist :-)
Eonwe Valar: Apparently the group size is down from 8 (in D2) back to 4 (as it was back in Diablo).
Eonwe Valar: To clarify just in case: they didn't shrink D3's group size, just the group size in comparison to the previous game in the series.
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya!
Eonwe Valar: Heya Varda.
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news?
VardaValar1: My apologies. Working in the yard with no watch, thought there was more time.
Eonwe Valar: I figured you were in the process of Memorial Day festivities or something :}
VardaValar1: Thanks :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya :-)
ArPharazonV: Oh, besides that bit of Diablo III (and I got into it again, figured I'm not going to wait for achievement restoration)
AriehnV has entered the room.

ArPharazonV: I also did some flashgames as always ;-)
AriehnV: Aiya all
Eonwe Valar: Heya Arien.
Eonwe Valar: Oh, I should probably mention I did some D2 ME mod, hehe. Got some new uniques I really need to add to the list on the Games Site.

Diablo 3 continued:
ArPharazonV: A wow friend of mine got my lvl 5 demon hunter into Whimsyshire last night.
AriehnV: I ve finished Diablo three with the help of a mate and killed the lord of Hell
ArPharazonV: Where nearly everything could one-shot me.
ArPharazonV: But most of the time I managed to stay out of range and shoot some stuff, and went home with a bunch of gear I'm too low to use yet ;-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
AriehnV: But I have to admit that i decided to uninstall Diablo for now
VardaValar1: Already?
AriehnV: thats what i wanted you to know :-) , Reasons for that: too obsessive , too adrenalin driven and driving , almost compulsive to play only that
ArPharazonV: Ah, addictive :-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
AriehnV: yes :-P
AriehnV: I thought it was healthier to leave it for now .. i just wanted to see the thing and try finish it somehow
ArPharazonV: On normal I assume?
AriehnV: aye
ArPharazonV: Or are you one of those few who cleared Inferno? :-)
VardaValar1: For those who might not know, Diablo 3 has 4 levels of play, the last being Inferno.
ArPharazonV: Aye. Normal, Nightmare, Hell, Inferno. Basically difficulty levels, since each goes through the same story and the same four acts
ArPharazonV: but you need to finish the previous difficulty to move on to the next with the same character, and as such it's built for being higher level when you go into the harder ones.
AriehnV: hehe no i just finished it on normal
AriehnV: and i ve got all the battletags of those who stive further :-P
ArPharazonV: And if you really want a challenge, make a Hardcore character; one who is not allowed to die. Finish Inferno with that, and you might just be world-first ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news before we move into Tolkien? Now would also be the time to whisper Tolkien topics :}

ArPharazonV: Only that the current hot weather over here isn't much to the liking of my pc. Seems especially terrible while playing Diablo, the fans go into overtime.
VardaValar1: Starting to warm up here too. PC's want their own AC!
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, aye.
AriehnV: its about 25 degrees here or was it might be 20 by now :-)
AriehnV: way too hot for me
ArPharazonV: Currently 24.5 degrees here, celsius
ArPharazonV: and it's nearly midnight
Eonwe Valar: OK, let's move into Tolkien :}

Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
Eonwe Valar: If no one minds, I'd like to bring up something for the RP I don't think we got anything concrete on, at least not to me.
ArPharazonV: Which probably means I've got ideas about it already ;-)
karakedi25: sorry folks, I have to leave. I'll try to stay in touch through Varda by phoe.
karakedi25: *phone
VardaValar1: Namarie, may your travels go well, Indis. :-)
karakedi25 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Maybe :}
Eonwe Valar: *Maybe to Phar, that is.
Eonwe Valar: I don't think we've determined to a satifactory level why we're *not* destroying to sword in Imladris, story-wise.
Eonwe Valar: *satisfactory
ArPharazonV: Ah. That.
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: It's general. We Gather Information, head out to the ruins of Angmar passing rough terrain and baddies, stop the baddie from sending Super-Mirk into already murky Mirkwood. We do it by grabbing the staff and head of the staff and taking back the possessed elf.
ArPharazonV: I believe the conclusion was that we were going to use it to find our enemy or the staff, but for that some research needs to be found on it.
VardaValar1: and ye olde crash.
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar.
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: We might even booby-trap it so if it goes on the staff, it reverses the energy or something else fun.
AriehnV: welcome back , Eonwe :-)
ArPharazonV: Oh, that's a nice idea. But rather sciencefictiony.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks, hehe. What'd I miss since my statement "If we can't Why cant it? If we can, why don't we?"
ArPharazonV: That never made it in, Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: ok.
Eonwe Valar: Eonwe Valar (4:47:51 PM): If we can't Why cant it? If we can, why don't we?
Eonwe Valar: There :}
ArPharazonV: Eonwe Valar (23:47:23): *satisfactoryArPharazonV (23:47:33): Ah. That. was the last bit before you got booted
ArPharazonV: on my screen
AriehnV: Hmm if i remember it right , in War of the North Elrohir and Elladan have to break a powerful spell before they enter the fortress in Fornost or some such place
ArPharazonV: But I assume you're referring to the destruction of the sword.
AriehnV: they have to channel power to dispell it
AriehnV: the heroes task is to defend them and let them finish this btwe :-)
AriehnV: but i wonder if we can do something of the kind with the staff
VardaValar1: I see nothing wrong with the concept of spells backfiring. Like the Gandalf and Balrog fight over the door in Moria.
ArPharazonV: True.
ArPharazonV: It's the concept of "energy"in the staff that boggles me a bit.
AriehnV: hmm a lash or lightning hitting someone is a bit more like it
Eonwe Valar: It's a careful line to walk.
AriehnV: but then .. what diffent to energy is that if it can take the form of lighting?
AriehnV: arcane power
Eonwe Valar: Or a line to walk carefully, hehe. The line itself is not careful one way or the other, hehe.
ArPharazonV: Who knows what goes on in the mind of a line...
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: OK, so let's establish the most basic question about the sword first: can we destroy it with what we have in Rivendell?
VardaValar1: Energy is such a vague word. It could mean spells sitting ready to go off, or batteries. : )
VardaValar1: Elrond can probably destroy the sword since he can re-forge Anduril.
AriehnV: thats if the sword is really a sword
Eonwe Valar: Well, Anduril wasn't anything "special" per se. It was a sword made by a Dwarf way back when.
AriehnV: and not part of the staff
ArPharazonV: Even if part of the staff, it can still be destroyed.
VardaValar1: Anduril is not your ordinary sword. It has fire and cold.
Eonwe Valar: This sword, by all indication has something akin to a Ring of Power going on, unless I've misinterpreted everythign we've discussed and written.
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: It has magic, aye.
VardaValar1: Poor Eonwe.
AriehnV: no , Eonwe , it is similar in a way , a means to control , has magic , to communicate
VardaValar1: But many things can be magic besides a ring.
AriehnV: and obviously to influence Eownes connection to :-\
VardaValar1: No doubt!
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: That's one powerful sword/staff if it can affect his connection all the way from our forum
AriehnV: too even
AriehnV: AriehnV 11:01 pm no , Eonwe , it is similar in a way , a means to control , has magic , to communicate VardaValar1 11:02 pm But many things can be magic besides a ring. AriehnV 11:02 pm and obviously to influence Eownes connection to :-\ VardaValar1 11:02 pm No doubt!
VardaValar1: Maybe Eonwe shouldn't have leaned the staff against his computer.
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: I don't think the "communicate" thing made it to the story, so it need not stick as a property.
AriehnV: see above what has been said since your unfortunate exit, Eonwe
AriehnV: thats fine , makes it somewhat easier to deal with
ArPharazonV: Ah, but it's the "communicate" that we need to have a reason to bring it with us.
ArPharazonV: *looks around library* I wonder if one of these books is about the staff..
AriehnV: this is something Indis could unearth
AriehnV: or Fainan who helps her ..
Eonwe Valar: "Communicate" in the sense that the one half can be used to trace or locate the second half, or at least its origin spot, yes, but not in the sense we had been discussing.
VardaValar1: Not like a telephone, aye.
ArPharazonV: "Hey, look at the sword on the cover on this book. Doesn't it look familiar to you...?"
VardaValar1: Aye, Fainan could handle pictures. :-)
AriehnV: "home ... want to phone home .."
VardaValar1: hehehee
AriehnV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Ok, the staff picked a new victim.
ArPharazonV: Actually, when you compare it to the communication of a Ring, it works.
AriehnV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: The sword has already shown an effect on our characters' minds.
ArPharazonV: I'm not sure if it's been talking to Frali, though ;-)
Eonwe Valar: OK, so the sword *can* be destroyed in Rivendell. The next task is then to find a satisfactory reason why the weapon is not just destroyed to save the chance that things could get worse with it.
VardaValar1: The option of destroying it will come up.
VardaValar1: This will give a bit of conflict with those wanting it for a homing device.
Eonwe Valar: Presumably, whatever weaponsmith Elrond assigns to study this sword is going to discern certain things about it.
VardaValar1: The ruins of Angmar are not small and he might not have gone exactly into them but nearby.
Eonwe Valar: And if the weaponsmith I'm thinking right now ends up with it, he's probably going to suggest destroying it, hehe.
AriehnV: hmm which makes me think .. since Frali, Gimli and gloin are probably visiting the weaponsmiths is where they might end up meeting
VardaValar1: That's a thought.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, they could easily visit Rivendell's forges.
VardaValar1: Phar, sure hope you're saving now and then!
ArPharazonV: Good idea.
ArPharazonV: saved for now
AriehnV: it surprises me a bit that Frali himself was not questioned about the sword or its influence yet
AriehnV: but that might stil come
ArPharazonV: So we've got 2 options if we want the means of communication/tracking between sword and staff to be discovered in time to prevent its destruction.
ArPharazonV: 1: A scholar or weaponsmith or other type of researcher, studying the sword, happens across the utility, maybe sensing that it's pointing north or something. We need to figure out the details.
ArPharazonV: 2: We recognize the thing in a book.
ArPharazonV: Especially if we're doing research on the staff, we might come across the link.
VardaValar1: He might've been, but he opted to separate from the party.
VardaValar1: Maybe later.
AriehnV: *nods*
ArPharazonV: We do research about the staff, we come across a picture, and figure out that one half of the staff looks suspiciously like the blade we've been carrying around.
VardaValar1: (D&D - party must never separate.)
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: Even recognizing the morgul magic in the weapon would be a reason to suggest destroying it.
ArPharazonV: Yes. Which is why I'm leaning to the book possibility.
VardaValar1: I wonder if it reacts badly with Elrond's ring? They react to each other? The sword seems subdued in the ambience of Rivendell that is made by the Ring.
Eonwe Valar: I imagine that if we found it in a book in Elrond's library, whatever description we had of the complete weapon would give us enough reason to not risk its reunion, and thus to destroy the sword.
VardaValar1: Ok, so right now we don't know this is the staff headpiece. We know it's not good. The weaponsmith warns that it's *very* not good.
VardaValar1: The books tell us what it is.
VardaValar1: Aye, so some will say destroy it so they can't re-unite.
VardaValar1: Some will say use it to locate the staff.
Eonwe Valar: If we destroy it, we won't need to locate the staff :}
VardaValar1: Some will say put a booby-trap on the sword or at least something for tracking.
ArPharazonV: Unless the staff is dangerous enough without the sword to risk its reunion to find the staff.
VardaValar1: And maybe no one will know about the booby-trap that's in our party. Elrond sets it up figuring we'll foul up.
VardaValar1: Just needs us to deliver the headpiece.
Eonwe Valar: Elrond plans for us to fail? Doesn't sound thematically fitting.
VardaValar1: We already have super-mirk and possession.
VardaValar1: heh, ok, he sees how ept we are.
ArPharazonV: Well, we're not exactly a Fellowship of heirs and princes.
Eonwe Valar: If we're going to screw this up, why doesn't he just send Glorfindel in to do it right? ;}
ArPharazonV: Oh, why doesn't he? Would be fun to have an npc around :-)
VardaValar1: So the wraith sorceror took over the elf, maybe because Calaron picked up the staff (rigged) and it caused him to become weakened just long enough
ArPharazonV: that was the Ring, Varda. Calaron never had the staff.
VardaValar1: The mirk is coming from where?
ArPharazonV: Calaron picked up the ring.
VardaValar1: Ok, so we have a ring in the mix. /facepalm
VardaValar1: What does the staff do?
Eonwe Valar: Oh, the tangled wevs we weave, without ever trying to deceive :}
ArPharazonV: Spread the mirk, pretty much. Maybe locates the headpiece.
Eonwe Valar: *webs
VardaValar1: Ok, so the staff is doing the mirk.
ArPharazonV: Maybe summons up dark creatures of Mirkwood. Spiders. Squirrels.
ArPharazonV: Draws out the evil of a place.
VardaValar1: The headpiece they took to see if it worked on Thranduil's gate magic.
ArPharazonV: Maybe it can counter magic, then.
VardaValar1: So one does and one un-does.
VardaValar1: Combine them and it doesn't work! hah!
VardaValar1: j/k
ArPharazonV: I try to see it as opposite forces :-)
ArPharazonV: "good" magic and "bad" magic, encountering and nullifying each other
Eonwe Valar: Multiplier effect, hehe. Put them together and it super-does then super-undoes everything instantly.
ArPharazonV: "bad" magic of the sword counters the "good" magic of the gate, "bad" magic of the staff spreads mirk and summons up beasties
ArPharazonV: put "bad" staff and "bad" sword together and the world goes boom
VardaValar1: The evil wight sorceror possessor wants to combine the pieces. This would be to increase his power, probably to take over Mirkwood now that the Necromancer/Sauron is gone and the Nazgul are elsewhere. Somebody's got to run things.
ArPharazonV: Aye, that works.
VardaValar1: World goes boom is Morgothian rather than of Sauron, but heh.
Eonwe Valar: So completed weapon + Ring = don't risk putting weapon back together, hehe.
ArPharazonV: Metaphorically, Varda!
ArPharazonV: In this case, Mirkwood goes boom.
VardaValar1: Well ok.
ArPharazonV: Unless the sword is boobytrapped, yes.
VardaValar1: Mirkwood's animals are showing signs of corruption into control already. Make it stronger, it affects humans, maybe even elves.
ArPharazonV: Reverse the polarity of the sword. Make it good magic instead of bad magic, and maybe the two pieces will annul each other, making the whole thing worthless!
VardaValar1: They get an evil elf army along with orcs.
VardaValar1: Hanging out in the vicinity of Elrond's ring reversed the polarity over time!
Eonwe Valar: I don't think it works like that.
ArPharazonV: What if we just screw on the sword by the wrong end?
Eonwe Valar: hehe.
VardaValar1: Phar, we told you to screw it on the end away from the dirt.
VardaValar1: You're onto something.
VardaValar1: Mess with whatever attaches it.
VardaValar1: The Bolt of Light! I thought you meant lightning. No, I meant a bolt.
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: Some form of sabotage.
ArPharazonV: If we just look at the end of the sword that's supposed to be reattached, and sabotage it somehow.. melt it a bit, weld something to it, make it no longer fit
AriehnV: Hmm i wanted to "let it talk" to Frali but Varda said at the time that the only thing a corruption would achieve is a greater greed for gold , thats why he thought of running off with it into the mountouns
AriehnV: but Meren made that impossible :-)
VardaValar1: The sword disintegrates after being re-attached.
ArPharazonV: "Listen, dwarf... look at those mountainssss.... there's gold in dem mountains... all you gotta do is take me away from here.."
VardaValar1: hehehehe
AriehnV: preciosss
AriehnV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: And Arien's off to the mountains.
VardaValar1: We decide to destroy it. But one of us *eyes* dwarf, runs off with it and the chase is on!
AriehnV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: and by the time we catch up we're already near Angmar, and might as well finish the trip.
VardaValar1: Then it turns out the dwarf wasn't corrupted at all, but had a great idea!
VardaValar1: We agree with the idea and all go on together, hoping Glorfindel doesn't catch us.
AriehnV: blah sorry the Esc key can be a nuisance sometimes :-\
Eonwe Valar: The question is how the Dwarf would make it out of the vicinity of Rivendell.
VardaValar1: The Esc key of Doom.
VardaValar1: We were on a hunting trip outside... But what's he doing with the headpiece of Ra? er the headpiece?
VardaValar1: Hid it under his vest?
AriehnV: they would have to be on the way already and away from Rivendell
AriehnV: before he would try or the sword would try rather
VardaValar1: Now that would be a problem. We'd lose our trust of our companion.
Eonwe Valar: And which of us would be entrusted to guard the sword that would let our guard slip long enough for Frali to get ahold of it and run off?
VardaValar1: Frali's carrying it for us.
AriehnV: hehe just what Frali needs with his frayed Ego :-)
Eonwe Valar: Unless for some unknown reason Frali was set as its guard leaving Rivendell.
ArPharazonV: Maybe Frali's guarding it.
VardaValar1: I think Frali will be the one most on guard against the effect, after experiencing it once. Vaccinated. And recognize it if one of us goes under the influence.
Eonwe Valar: Frali started this mess, and he better well finish it? hehe
AriehnV: at the moment, as far as i know, it is in Meren's keeping
VardaValar1: There's that. Let's not endanger the elves.
VardaValar1: Aye, Meren had it until we reached Elrond.
VardaValar1: Then where does it go?
ArPharazonV: The sword was entrusted to you, young dwarf...
Eonwe Valar: (paraphrasing Bilbo there)
ArPharazonV: and if you do not find a way..
VardaValar1: Aye, you were. :-)
Eonwe Valar: The sword is going to whichever of Elrond's weaponsmiths is free from other duties at the moment.
AriehnV: it certainly would make sense from Frali's point of view
VardaValar1: How does it reach the weaponsmith? Who's taking it?
Eonwe Valar: After Elrond chooses the weaponsmith, he'll collect it.
Eonwe Valar: he the weaponsmith.
VardaValar1: From whom?
VardaValar1: Do we follow him?
Eonwe Valar: If it's having the kind of affect that's being discussed in the story, it would be best if it goes directly to the weaponsmith to examine it and passes through as few hands as possible.
ArPharazonV: Who has the weapon now?
Eonwe Valar: Meren has it.
VardaValar1: Meren brought it with her.
ArPharazonV: Allright.
ArPharazonV: So we send it to a weaponsmith, and while he examines it, we find a book about the staff?
VardaValar1: If it's that fast, we probably had Erestor help find the info.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, the weaponsmith will be examining the weapon itself, having more time to do so than the group did on the trek to Rivendell.
AriehnV: and to avoid the sword being destroyed you follow the weaponsmith .. where you run into Frali
ArPharazonV: It doesn't need to be while he's examining it. It just has to be before the decision is made to destroy it, and I doubt the weaponsmith's got the authority to make that decision.
Eonwe Valar: The weaponsmith would report his findings aye.
VardaValar1: Just picking it up is enough to know it's corrupt. What will the weaponsmith find that's new?
GwaihirValar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Its connection with the other half of the weapon?
ArPharazonV: Or at least a connection going somewhere north. Would be odd to get more detail out of the study of the sword, instead of the book.
VardaValar1: What can he tell? He can see material, how it's put together. So he has a strong idea of who made the sword and its age.
Eonwe Valar: Assuming that the weaponsmiths put all their knowledge into a book.
VardaValar1: The runes could proabably be read by Elrond or figured out by him or Erestor or Meren or all of the above.
Eonwe Valar: There's bound to be more knowledge about the Rings of Power in the heads of the Elves who dealt with them than they were willing to set down on paper.
VardaValar1: Elrond would have a lot of it in his head.
Eonwe Valar: If there is a connection between the sword and the staff, I imagine that an Elf studying it , having some idea of *what* to look for, or at least *how* to look for it, would perceive it.
VardaValar1: Ok, so what do we find out?
Eonwe Valar: Afk one sec, pardon.
VardaValar1: What do we learn in Riv that we didn't know?
VardaValar1: We learn it's the headpiece of the staff.
ArPharazonV: We should also learn that the headpiece can lead us to the staff.
VardaValar1: The weaponsmith may realize it's primary function is not being a sword.
VardaValar1: The sword may have something on it that moves in relation to the staff. Or makes it want to point a certain way. The runes may shift position under certain influences.
VardaValar1: He notices this, and gives the book folk something to learn.
VardaValar1: It helps them make sense of the runes that would be inappropriate for a sword. But as a headpiece they make sense.
ArPharazonV: Sounds good.
VardaValar1: They investigate the odd property of the sword's pointing its runes or handle if left alone or under a certain influence.
VardaValar1: Not sure what influence, but that influence could be how we work with it.
VardaValar1: So that's a summary. : )
VardaValar1: We the party may be in agreement with Elrond who wants the sword used as a locator, vs Glorfindel's group that wants it destroyed for the safety of all elves.
ArPharazonV: Well we would be. It's our job to find the staff, and this sword may make that task a lot easier.
VardaValar1: Getting past Glorfindel could only be accomplished with Elrond's help. As in his putting his boot down.
VardaValar1: We may feel a bit conflicted inside ourselves and in our group about whether we're risking our people too much.
ArPharazonV: But do we have enough confidence in ourselves to prevent the reunion?
VardaValar1: The Lonely Mountain is very close to Mirkwood, so Frali is worried too.
VardaValar1: Aye, we've become a unit and feel we must take the chance to be sure we save our homes.
VardaValar1: Otherwise we wander around the mountains aimlessly for years while the elves are taken over.
ArPharazonV: Ah, but would they? While we wander, Calaron still doesn't have the headpiece and completed staff :-)
VardaValar1: The staff still puts out super-Mirk, if not as strong, and can still do a terrible amount of damage.
VardaValar1: It already shows signs of taking over the animals.
ArPharazonV: That's true.
VardaValar1: Mirkwood lives more by hunting. This could lead to disaster.
VardaValar1: Since most of our party is from Mirkwood, we see this animal problem as worse than those in Riv. Calion would certainly have this concern.
Eonwe Valar: Back.
VardaValar1: Aiyata. Have fun scrolling. : )
Eonwe Valar: I suspect Auros would be on the side that votes for destroying the sword. Finding the staff would be secondary to preventing the Enemy having a powerful weapon under his control.
VardaValar1: karakedi25: Auros may be tasked to ensure that glorfindel's fears are not realized
Eonwe Valar: Finding Calion's brother as well, for that matter.
Eonwe Valar: You can always try to bluff Calion's brother out of hiding, hehe.
VardaValar1: Or we can just destroy the sword. How do we go find the staff and Calaron afterwards?
ArPharazonV: We could go stand on top of some ruin or mountaintop in Angmar, shout "Hey, we have the headpiece!" and hope they come to us
ArPharazonV: while the sword is long destroyed :P
VardaValar1: The parts can feel each other. May be masked right now by Elrond's powerful Ring.
Eonwe Valar: Obviously Calaron didn't miss it when it was no more than 10 feet from him in Frali's possession, hehehe.
ArPharazonV: If he had the staff on him at the time.
ArPharazonV: Which, I recall, he didn't.
VardaValar1: Aye, we said it was on his horse.
ArPharazonV: Yes.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, but that means he hadn't seen the sword before, and we haven't seen the staff. Sounds like the makings of a double-bluff :}
VardaValar1: Could be.
Eonwe Valar: From a writer perspective, I should note I'm not against bringing the sword with us, I'm just digging for a plausible in-world reason we wouldn't flat out destroy it. What reward is worth the risk and all that.
VardaValar1: To the elves of Mirkwood and Frali, it's the best chance of finding the staff now sending mirk.
VardaValar1: To the elves of Riv, not so big a deal.
VardaValar1: also controlling the animals in our forest.
Eonwe Valar: I *would* at this point posit that if the staff is so potent incomplete, what makes the sword worth even pursuing. However,..
ArPharazonV: If Sauron's armies are so potent without the Ring being in his possession, to the point where they're about to overrun Gondor and everything else...
Eonwe Valar: I would also posit that once again the simplest explanation is the best in this case, and the reason we don't see the practical potency of the sword is because we have no one in our party with te desire to wield it as such.
ArPharazonV: what made the Ring worth pursuing? ;-)
AriehnV: the most unimportant of all .. just a trinket
VardaValar1: Sauron wanted to be whole.
AriehnV: the staff wants to be whole
ArPharazonV: Does the staff have a will of its own?
VardaValar1: Maybe the sorceror wants to be whole?
Eonwe Valar: To rephrase, on the surface it would appear the sword is rather unpowerful except for the fact it's part of a greater whole.
AriehnV: it needs to be whole to have its full power , and to reempower the sorcerer
ArPharazonV: Maybe destroying the sword would annihilate part of the power of the staff, and therefore it must be found. We, of course, don't know that, or we'd destroy it right now.
VardaValar1: The staff whole is stronger as it can help negate "good" magic if it includes the headpiece.
Eonwe Valar: The Ring was powerful on its own, Sauron was powerful on his own after having recovered, and both together would be devastating to Middle-earth.
VardaValar1: We should see the headpiece negate lesser good magic, like something the weaponsmith is using.
VardaValar1: The staff with the negater attached would be harder to stop.
VardaValar1: Right now, it can't pass Thranduil's enchanted path or gates, for instance.
ArPharazonV: But the headpiece can.. hmm... guess that negating magic's pretty good.
VardaValar1: The mirk is lessened around the outdoor banquets of the elves.
VardaValar1: So the mirk then can pass a lot of defenses.
VardaValar1: The elves of Lorien and Rivendell better not step outside the influence of their respective Rings if the staff is whole.
VardaValar1: Mirkwood has no ring.
VardaValar1: Up to now, Mirkwood needs no ring.
VardaValar1: The ring on Calaron is probably from Saruman.
VardaValar1: More proof against him.
ArPharazonV: Is it? We know many more lesser rings were made besides the great 20, no?
ArPharazonV: well, "many"..
VardaValar1: There were lesser rings. Sauron was scooping them up.
VardaValar1: Maybe this is one of those scoooped up.
VardaValar1: (less one o)
Eonwe Valar: "essays in the craft"
VardaValar1: What, after all, did Sauron do with the rings he collected?
VardaValar1: Aye, that was Saruman. : )
Eonwe Valar: The Sil says "Of them he gave 7 to Dwarves...9 he gave to Men..." roughly.
ArPharazonV: yes, that's the 20 great rings
ArPharazonV: but there were a bunch more lesser rings too, I recall
Eonwe Valar: FotR says (if memoery serves) there were lesser rings, and then the Rings of Power, all of those RIngs of Power sans the One having a gem.
Eonwe Valar: FotR is at least where I get the "essays in the craft" quote.
VardaValar1: There were lesser rings, aye. And even they are not to be trifled with. Gandalf thought Bilbo's ring might be one of those.
VardaValar1: I remember that quote. :-)
VardaValar1: A bit.
VardaValar1: Wasn't that the lesser rings, not Saruman's rings?
ArPharazonV: Ah yes. Essays in the craft did not refer to Saruman.
ArPharazonV: Quote time!
VardaValar1: Saruman's rings didn't seem to amount to much.
ArPharazonV: "In Eregion long ago man Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less.
ArPharazonV: The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles - yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals.
ArPharazonV: But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous."
ArPharazonV: I always envisioned this as one of the lesser rings.
ArPharazonV: But one of Saruman's make could work too.
AriehnV: yes i thought so
AriehnV: I recognised it as such a while ago :-) Frali of course not , he has no clue with what (or who) he is dealing with
VardaValar1: One of the lesser rings would be most likely. Don't think Saruman's were all that good, although for our story it would be nifty to add to the testimony against Saruman.
Eonwe Valar: I'm curious what a sorcerer concerend with Angmar would be doing as far south as Isengard to get a ring from Saruman.
Eonwe Valar: *concerned
VardaValar1: I'll go along with a lesser ring of Sauron's.
VardaValar1: The lesser ring could come directly from Dol Guldur and makes the most sense.
VardaValar1: Scarier too.
ArPharazonV: Or it could come from Angmar. Maybe the Witch-king collected it during his reign there.
ArPharazonV: And somehow reached the sorc.
VardaValar1: I wonder if we get it back and take it to Elrond, or if Sauron gets it back while we're destroying the staff and headpiece.
VardaValar1: Sauron lived in Dol Guldur as the Necromancer. The Nazgul were there too. So there's a possibility.
Eonwe Valar: If we got a hold of it, we could likely destroy it easily enough in the same place we're destroying the sword/staff.
VardaValar1: Aye, maybe proximity to the ring in Angmar for so long made it powerful, soaked up some virtue/power/whatever.
ArPharazonV: Well, I did have some ideas about what we'd do to the ring.
Eonwe Valar: A Ring of Power might be tougher, but a lesser Ring probably would've been subject to nearly the same dangers as a normal ring.
VardaValar1: You really think we could destroy it? A fireplace would not be enough. Might have to take a ring to Elrond.
VardaValar1: Gandalf didn't expect Bilbo's fireplace to harm even a lesser ring.
EonweValar: A fireplace? No. A forge? more likely.
ArPharazon-V (ArPharazonV) has left the room.
ArPharazon-V (ArPharazonV) has entered the room.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1: uh oh
VardaValar1: Phar
ArPharazonV: and I'm back
ArPharazonV: and saved up to what I had until I left
VardaValar1: Yay!!
ArPharazonV: last thing was VardaValar1: You really think we could destroy it? A fireplace would not be enough. Might have to take a ring to Elrond.
ArPharazonV: So what did I miss? :-)
Eonwe Valar: VardaValar1 (6:36:19 PM): Gandalf didn't expect Bilbo's fireplace to harm even a lesser ring. Eonwe Valar (6:37:30 PM): A fireplace? No. A forge? more likely.
AriehnV: well then , have fun hammering :-) I am afraid i have to chose rest over everything for the moment
ArPharazonV: And the idea I had, which I was about to give to you when I disappeared
AriehnV: said that . the one ring could only be destroyed in the place of its making
VardaValar1: Nighty night, Arien. :-)
ArPharazonV: was that for the next story-arc, we were going to find a dragon :-)
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien :}
ArPharazonV: Namarie, Arien!
AriehnV: but we are dealing with only a lesser ring
VardaValar1: Dragon-fire!
AriehnV: dragon fire .. i thought it was used to reforge a key :-)
ArPharazonV: Well, we might test what we can do with it.
AriehnV: oops that was in wow :-D wrong world
ArPharazonV: Take it to Rivendell - can you melt it in your forges? No?
ArPharazonV: Take it to Erebor - can you melt it in *your* forges? No?
Eonwe Valar: Dragonfire could consume the Rings of Power sans the One, were there any dragons of old still alive, as I understood it.
AriehnV: sleep well :-)
ArPharazonV: Let's find a dragon!
AriehnV: dragons and treasure go well together .. "dwarf rubs hands"
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien :}
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Well, the old dragons might not be around anymore, but it's only a lesser ring, and for a lesser ring, lesser dragons might be available up north :-)
Eonwe Valar: It seemed to me it was the sheer amount of power involved with the One that protected it from dragon fire. Aside from all that Sauron in there, it's only gold, after all :}
Eonwe Valar: And Mount Doom was apparently the nearest active volcano :}
ArPharazonV: Yes. Nobody ever asked the eagles if there was another volcano somewhere in flight range, to the north or the east.
AriehnV: Aiya Gwaihir and good night to you :-)
AriehnV: there is one Phara
Eonwe Valar: I would think, were there one nearer, it would've worked well enough in destroying the Ring, but I could be wrong.
Eonwe Valar: *Nearer and less guarded.
ArPharazonV: Lava's lava. Doesn't even need to be nearer; a bit further away is fine, as long as it's not guarded.
Eonwe Valar: Yeah, but the longer the journey, to more likely Sauron will have won the war before the Ring is destroyed, and also more chance for Sauron to figure out what's going on.
Eonwe Valar: *the more likely
VardaValar1: FotR "The Shadow of the Past" shortly after the Gollum story by Gandalf, it talks about destroying rings.
ArPharazonV: Ah. But if it's not guarded, the eagles might be more willing to save the world.
ArPharazonV: They could hasten the journey just a bit.
Eonwe Valar: Seeking to destroy it was crazy. Seeking to do so in Sauron's own land was even crazier. Refuge in audacity :}
VardaValar1: Frodo's fireplace would not melt ordinary gold. Dragon-fire could melt the Rings of Power, although not even Ancalagon the Black could melt the One Ring.
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: A lesser Ring, maybe a superior forge like Elrond's could unmake it.
VardaValar1: I doubt we'd find one nearer than that strong enough.
Eonwe Valar: I believed we've discussed that if the sorcerer in Calaron hoped to reunite the pieces, he might want a forge.
VardaValar1: Or bolts. Or screw it on. :-)
VardaValar1: Or friction it in
ArPharazonV: Some third stationary piece, or a catalyst of some sorts, somewhere in Angmar.
VardaValar1: Or a stab joint.
Eonwe Valar: Part of how hot we can get the fire is the materials we have, and the other if the forge is designed to get that hot(that it can *handle* getting that hot).
VardaValar1: We've mentioned the ring, so it might be the third item needed.
VardaValar1: Let's not get too many new elements added at this point.
ArPharazonV: Well, no. The point was that he had to go to Angmar to unite the pieces. If the ring was the third piece...
Eonwe Valar: We're kinda off topic anyway in discussing the destruction of the Ring. The staff/sword is what we should be concerned with.
VardaValar1: Ah ok
VardaValar1: So there's a good forge he can use in Angmar and might be refurbishing.
VardaValar1: The forge is for putting the staff and headpiece together. It might need some repair.
VardaValar1: So that might be why he was in a hurry to get to Angmar.
VardaValar1: Needs special materials they were collecting.
VardaValar1: Their journey may have had more than one goal.
Eonwe Valar: Whatever being could put the kind of power into this weapon that would make the staff alone formidable could probably handle having a good forge.
Eonwe Valar: Or something worded better.
VardaValar1: Aye, and would know the materials needed. Might even be some magic materials or special ingredients like mirk-touched wolf bones.
VardaValar1: Just to link back with some other of our story elements.
Eonwe Valar: Eye of newt and leg of frog,... hehe
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: That idea, yep.
ArPharazonV: Eye of the newt and cinnamon... hmm... I'll not link you that song.
VardaValar1: toe but aye. : )
VardaValar1: hehehe
VardaValar1: Now we know the keywords...
ArPharazonV: That would you get you the link, actually. First page in my search engine.
Eonwe Valar: OK so let me see if I have what we're going with straight.
VardaValar1: Cinnamon?
VardaValar1: *duck*
Eonwe Valar: 1.) We *could* destroy the sword in Rivendell, save us all the trouble of risking a weapon that could be a powerful tool for the Enemy's causes, but we don't.
Eonwe Valar: 2.) Instead, since the weaponsmith examining it found a link between it and the staff, the argument is made to use the sword to track down the staff, because to leave the staff active is to throw an entire realm to the wolves and good guys don't do that.
VardaValar1: (nicely put)
ArPharazonV: Poor wolves are just misunderstood at this point.
Eonwe Valar: 3.) Since we *do* hope to destroy this thing in the end, blacksmiths/possibly weaponsmiths have a purpose in our group once we've tracked down the staff.
Eonwe Valar: Potential 4.) For some reason I have yet to forsee, Frali is given charge of the weapon?
ArPharazonV: That would only be necessary in the version where we do want to destroy the sword but Frali runs off with it.
Eonwe Valar: I think that's enough to get us out of Rivendell, so I'll end the expouding there.
Eonwe Valar: Ah, ok.
Eonwe Valar: *expounding.
VardaValar1: I don't think Frali is running off with it,
ArPharazonV: I think we decided against that, yes.
VardaValar1: Frali might be enough of a smith to use the Angmar forge though.
VardaValar1: Do we need to swap the carrying of the thing around between us? aka Harry Potter and the horcrux?
Eonwe Valar: If we come particularly close to Gundabad, Frali as a Dwarf might know enough about the area to find the kind of materials we would need for the forge.
ArPharazonV: That comparison escapes me, I've only seen the first 6 movies ;-)
Eonwe Valar: I think not.
Eonwe Valar: If such an item had an effect such that it needed to be passed around, it'd probably be more dangerous to let multiple people handle it.
VardaValar1: So we wrap it in lead foil, okies.
Eonwe Valar: Although, if the concern is rather that Frali not know where it is, ala the Palantir, ....
VardaValar1: If Frali were that bad, he should not be in the group.
Eonwe Valar: Agreed.
VardaValar1: So Frali is not that bad. : )
Eonwe Valar: Thought that almost as soon as I said it, hehe.
VardaValar1: I like the idea of his being forewarned and more aware of the danger now, maybe even refusing to touch it. Being aware of others starting to be under the influence.
VardaValar1: Frali evolves.
ArPharazonV: That'd be nice.
VardaValar1: His mortality might be part of why he's more susceptible.
Eonwe Valar: Arg, and my mind starts concocting a Pokemon joke, hehe.
ArPharazonV: Frali evolves to...
ArPharazonV: Suddenly, a wild Frali appears!
Eonwe Valar: Quick, hit the B button to stop the evolution! :}
VardaValar1: This thought is from the idea that rings of power are more hazardous to mortals.
ArPharazonV: Frali uses axe-throw, it's super effective!
VardaValar1: a nine-tailed kitsuni.
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, pardon that.
VardaValar1: I had to stop typing a second as Pokemon invaded, hehehehe.
VardaValar1: Are we good on plotting now?
VardaValar1: *plot scheme concoct*
ArPharazonV: For the sword, for now, I'd guess so. We get it examined, weaponsmith notices something's up, it's a headpiece, Elrond or someone else deciphers the runes, turns out to be part of the staff, and can locate it, or something.
Eonwe Valar: I *think* I've got enough to work with to get us out the door of Rivendell at least.
ArPharazonV: When we know what we're looking at, there might even be a possibility of gleaning some extra info from a book.
Eonwe Valar: Elrond could send one of his healers Frali's way for an examination, give Arien a chance to post about that.
VardaValar1: Main thing is we need to get this part in Riv done and head into the main story.
VardaValar1: The journey might be hindered as the sorceror sends minions to grab the headpiece from us, at least when we're fairly close.
Eonwe Valar: Make sure Frali suffered no long term ill from his obssession with/exposure to the sword.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: Some scene where he refuses to take it or we find he's immunized.
Eonwe Valar: I've already set the stage for a second meeting with Elrond when the party is ready/able to go.
Eonwe Valar: And in the meantime, Elrond has to pick a weaponsmith, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: *to xamine the sword.
Eonwe Valar: *examine
Eonwe Valar: OK, let's make it official...
Eonwe Valar: *Bangs gavel*

Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting :}
VardaValar1: *jumps*
Eonwe Valar: Ran long in the discussion there, hehe.
ArPharazonV: Curious, do you folks have a set day/time when you're most likely to play D3?
VardaValar1: A weaponsmith that was involved with Anduril's reforging would be a natural.
VardaValar1: No, Phar
ArPharazonV: I standard play Europe, of course, but if I know some of you might be on at a certain point..
VardaValar1: Bilbo's on a lot at odd times, if that helps.
ArPharazonV: allright
Eonwe Valar: Assuming Anduril is not being reforged as we speak.
ArPharazonV: Anduril can wait, we've got more important matters!
Eonwe Valar: I'd considered another weaponsmith with an empty spot in his schedule, but I don't know if I really want to use him.
Eonwe Valar: hehehe
VardaValar1: While the smiths are taking tea during the reforge, they can look at it.
VardaValar1: Phar, is there a good time for D3 for you?
ArPharazonV: Hmm, nah. I don't play it *that* much. Usually if I have some time left after midnight, I can spend a while playing. And then usually Europe, where I have no way to see if any of you are online.
ArPharazonV: So I'd need something outside of D3, like a set schedule where people are more likely to play.
VardaValar1: Bilbo's on D3 right now. I can see the town portal from here. :-)
VardaValar1: We just have a big friend list, no kin set up.
ArPharazonV: Not sure you can.
VardaValar1: Saw Thingol there yesterday. :-)
ArPharazonV: Maybe I'll just make a habit of poking US when I log on.
VardaValar1: Guys, if you have someone's battle tag and are friended, you're able to go into their private games.
VardaValar1: Be sure to ask before entering, as they may be trying to just run the storyline and aren't public.
ArPharazonV: Actually, I've disabled Quickjoin, heard some stories about account hacks taking place through it.
ArPharazonV: So will need permission anyway, I think.
VardaValar1: We're concerned about that. Good to know you can disable it.
VardaValar1: I should probably disable it since my tag is public info.
VardaValar1: Mine is because the guild needs at least one point of contact.
ArPharazonV: Aye.
VardaValar1: That would be useful to post in our forum's D3 thread, Phar. :-)
ArPharazonV: Well it's all rumor. From what I can see now, Blizzard points it all to backdoor programs and lack of authenticators etc.
ArPharazonV: Nothing through the game itself.
VardaValar1: Good to know.
VardaValar1: Those two things are a problem.
VardaValar1: Get some sleep, Phar. :-)
ArPharazonV: I will. Listening to some podcast right now.
ArPharazonV: Allright, saving and sending transcript.
ArPharazon-V: saved
ArPharazon-V: I'm sure you can fix the part where I was out of the room :)
ArPharazon-V: Namarie!
ArPharazon-V (ArPharazonV) has left the room.
EonweValar: Random Tolkien thought: 1.) According to Laws and Customs of the Eldar, Eldar wore wedding rings on the index finger of their right hand. 2.) In the LotR movie, Sauron wears the One Ring on the index finger of his right hand....
VardaValar1: Thuringwethil and he were friendlier than we knew?
EonweValar: Hehe.
VardaValar1: Of course he's not an Eldar, but... interesting. :-)
EonweValar: I was thinking more along the lines of a visible symbol of the concept he was corrupting: that of a union between equal individuals.
VardaValar1: That would sound right.
EonweValar: I don't recall if that is actually the finger he wore it on in the books though, but I'm inclined to think no.
VardaValar1: I don't remember it saying, but never thought much about it.
EonweValar: Although it would be easier to cut a finger off the outside of Sauron's hand than one of the inner fingers.
VardaValar1: Mostly it was that it was one finger cut off rather than a mess of them like in the movies
VardaValar1: Maybe it was still pointing. :-)
VardaValar1: Hey you! *whack* Yes?
EonweValar: hehe
EonweValar: I recall somewhere something about Gollum seeing Sauron's hand missing a finger, but alas, that passage is lost to me at the moment.
EonweValar: Elrond and Galadriel at least would not have worn their RIngs of Power on that finger.
VardaValar1: Aye, Gollum was tormented and saw Sauron. Said he had a finger missing from his blackened hand.
VardaValar1: Galadriel was married to Celeborn. Elrond was the widower sorta of Celebrian. They would have a ring on that finger already, unless they wanted to double-ring the finger.
VardaValar1: Seen that with engagement plus wedding rings. (I don't.)
VardaValar1: One ring is enough for me. ;-)
EonweValar: hehe
EonweValar: Ack, I found a typo in my RotK, and it's so very old too.
EonweValar: I wonder how often I read that without noticing, hehe
VardaValar1: If we read for content, it's easier to pass by such things. And yet they may jump out if it's mostly in good shape.
EonweValar: "Yes, I have brought your two treasures. They were found on Sam when you were rescued. The Lady Galadnil's gifts; your glass, Frodo, and your box, Sam. You will be glad to have them safe again.'"
EonweValar: I'll let you spot the glaring typo :}
VardaValar1: her name :-)
EonweValar: Aye :}
VardaValar1: Typesetter may have dropped a letter there. :-)
EonweValar: It might help me not to notice, too, that the name is hyphenated for being at the end of a line. "Galad-" on the first line, and "nil's" on the next.
VardaValar1: Aye
EonweValar: Easy to read it properly, then ignore the wrong part, hehe.
EonweValar: Afk for a moment.
[Note: stopped recording here fortunately for your eyes.]