Valar Guild

May 13, 2012 Sunday Meeting

5pm EDT (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (8)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), fladrifv, Gilraen-(V)/Iryenth, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, Menelvagor Valar, VardaValar1

Meeting begins
    Diablo 3 comes out Tuesday
    LotRO Update 7 patch Monday
    Topic: A Tolkien moment from The Council of Elrond, and discussion.
    RP discussion
    More RP discussion
    More Diablo 3 discussion
    Elven cosmology
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Iryenth has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Menel and Gwaihir have invites already?
ArPharazonV: Oh, missed Gwaihir, he's greyed out. But menel does.
Iryenth: Gwai is afk, up here playing Starhawk on the PS3
Eonwe Valar: OK.
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Phar, Gilraen, and Eonwe :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya varda :} Hehe, I was just getting ready to assume you wouldn't make it due to Mother's Day festivities :}
VardaValar1: *puff* made it!
Iryenth: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Been a crazy, fun Mother's Day. :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
Iryenth: Phara and I were starting to wonder if either of you was going to make it today
Iryenth: that's good :-)
VardaValar1: Eonwe, "son" of Varda and Manwe, will be wielding the gavel today. :-)
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: And there rises the sun. :-)
AriehnV: Aiya all :-)
VardaValar1: Aiya
ArPharazonV: *puts on sunglasses*
Eonwe Valar: Let's go ahead and get the meeting rolling.

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: Happy Mother's Day to all the mothers of the Guild! :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other member news?
VardaValar1: And to the patient mothers of guild members. :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
AriehnV: so is it mothers day in the US today?
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
ArPharazonV: In the Netherlands too, actually.
AriehnV: congratulations indeed and happy mothers day, cool
VardaValar1: yay!
VardaValar1: and to Gilraen-(V), who plays a famous mother from LotR!
ArPharazonV: :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Looks like there's no other Member News, so..

Eonwe Valar: Web:
Eonwe Valar: New Tolkien Site additions. I'll let Varda tell about them :}
VardaValar1: I did a little catch up on the Story site. :-)
VardaValar1: Jay of Lasgalen had a heap of drabbles. I had been waiting for her to finish a long story, but went ahead and put up the first chapter even it is incomplete, as it's interesting just alone.
VardaValar1: Want them all listed here or just check them out from the News page? Ok either way.
VardaValar1: Dwarves and Their Ale:
VardaValar1: Homecoming:
VardaValar1: A Famous Victory:
VardaValar1: And Then There Were Three:
VardaValar1: Ambush (need to fix the title! yikes!)
VardaValar1: Justice and Revenge:
VardaValar1: Home at Last:
VardaValar1: A longer story, spooky type, called Stopping by Woods:
VardaValar1: And that first chapter of The Cloths of Heaven:
VardaValar1: That should keep you busy reading for a few minutes. ^^
Eonwe Valar: :}
ArPharazonV: don't forget the forum address change :-)
VardaValar1: Aye, the forum address changed and I tried to fix the links. If you spot any I missed, please say. But try a reload/refresh first?
Eonwe Valar: The old url was
VardaValar1: Thanks Phar :-)
Eonwe Valar: Now it should be

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:

Eonwe Valar: Diablo 3:
Eonwe Valar: COming out this Tuesday.
Eonwe Valar: If you're going to be playing it, let me know for the Games Site.
VardaValar1: Diablo 3: Bilbo, Sauron, probably me a bit. :-) Remember to make the friend channel!
ArPharazonV: I think I will. Got some birthday money put aside for it, and look forward to playing it casually.
Iryenth: Gwaihir and I have our digital pre-orders ready
VardaValar1: (free to some WoW folks)
ArPharazonV: Though I haven't really kept track of the game's progress sites as I do for WoW and SCII... but it'll be fun to explore on a basis of knowing very little about the game.
ArPharazonV: But hey, that's what the manual's for.
Eonwe Valar: As I understand it, it'll be like D2 was with allowing us to get together on the US servers despite region, so that should be a good thing.
Eonwe Valar: And aye, those WoW guys and gals who went for the Annual Pass will have D3 for free.
VardaValar1: If you remember the previous Diablos, it'll look familiar with fancier graphics. You can still explode barrels with arrows. ^^
ArPharazonV: I've played them very, very little.
VardaValar1: Good. You get some surprises. And you don't use the usual buttons of WoW and LotRO to move, but old-style Diablo moves.

Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: Blizzard is implementing Cross-realm zones for Mists of Pandaria, working on them in the beta right now.
Eonwe Valar: For more info on the Cross-Realm zones, see this link:
Eonwe Valar: Pandaren dances are also available for viewing for those so interested.
Eonwe Valar: Sunday Run:
Eonwe Valar: Nothing to report here.
Eonwe Valar: Friday Run: Varda, Elwing, and Eonwė crossed paths, seems Eonwe missed Arien by less than an hour.
Eonwe Valar: Which brings the next bit: Arien's rejoined us on Lothar :}
VardaValar1: Welcome back, Arien :-)
Eonwe Valar: LotRO:

VardaValar1: (Diablo 3, if we have the old choice, will be US East for guild, probably a shadow guild. Let us know if you want a little guild branch.)
Eonwe Valar: I'm not sure they've implemented guilds into D3 yet, Varda.
Eonwe Valar: So it'll be like it was before guild support came in.
VardaValar1: Shadow guild, np. :-)
Eonwe Valar: I don't suppose they'd let us go old-school with names like Eonwe-(Valar), hehe.
VardaValar1: We also got away with our names by tacking v on the end.
ArPharazonV: Now I need to decide whether to name my character Pharazon or Calaron...
VardaValar1: Or try several types. :-)
ArPharazonV: Hmm, yes, perhaps.
VardaValar1: Witch-doctor Calion?
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, Varda's floor for LotRO when she's ready :}
VardaValar1: Alrighty

VardaValar1: LotRO:
VardaValar1: Monday the maintenance went longer than expected, not just morning but into the afternoon.
VardaValar1: We got together to help Gorlim's guardian past the questing hump, running on through a nice collection of areas.
VardaValar1: Barnavon, Dunbog, and well into Forthbrond and Grimbold's Camp
VardaValar1: After that much of the questing is solo only, but he was ready for it by then.
VardaValar1: Wednesday some of us grouped for questing in the Brown Lands, especially helpful against all those big trolls.
VardaValar1: That being the 9th and last day of the anniversary festival, people tried to finish up the festival quests.
VardaValar1: Saturday for the group runs we warmed up first with Limlight Gorge dailies, then
VardaValar1: Did played with the instance finder for skirmishes, coming up with Thievery and Mischief and with Battle of the Deep Way, where we covered ourselves in glory.
VardaValar1: In a good mood, we then joined up for the big fluff event.
VardaValar1: The Devs gave us a certain time for kinships to come up with horse-related event for the Galloping Gala.
VardaValar1: It's tough for just one kin to run a big event alone, so we worked with two others, just covering all the stations.
VardaValar1: The Palantiri came up with the idea of the Race in the Fellowship's Footsteps.
VardaValar1: People hit the race in teams of up to 4 players, with one brave hobbit going solo.
VardaValar1: They raced from the Party Tree to each station, handled the challenges there, then raced to the next.
VardaValar1: If they had to wait to do the challenge, we didn't count the wait time against them.
VardaValar1: We had all sorts of trivia, music, puzzles and much fun was had by all.
VardaValar1: We then gave out the prizes including codes offered by Turbine for various goodies, and fine items our three kins had collected.
VardaValar1: The three kins were The Palantiri, The Valar Guild, and The Knights of the White Lady.
VardaValar1: This coming Monday we have the Update 7 patch coming, a big one.
VardaValar1: Info here:
VardaValar1: We still intend to have our usual 8pm Eastern get-together that day, maybe exploring some of the new stuff. We'll see how it goes.
VardaValar1: We have info on the Galloping Gala on the forum also, and may have a write-up coming elsewhere. The links will be on the News when I hear about them. Feel free to email me any such links!
VardaValar1: /LotRO report
Eonwe Valar: Thanks, Varda :}

Eonwe Valar: Further note on D3:
Eonwe Valar: There will be three separate regions, which players are free to move amongst: "The Americas", "Europe", and "Asia"
fladrifv has entered the room.
fladrifv: Aiya
AriehnV: Aiya Ent :-)
fladrifv: internet is not in my favour today so i can drop any time
VardaValar1: Aiya Fladrif! : )
Eonwe Valar: Things like friends lists and Auction Houses are bound by region, so you can't access those from one area while in another.
VardaValar1: Root down fast!
ArPharazonV: Players, Eonwe? Not characters?
ArPharazonV: Or... characters too?
Eonwe Valar: No, characters cannot move btween regions, but the Players can create characters in any region.
AriehnV: ah right thats like in Star Trek online
VardaValar1: Lag might be bad. You'll have to let us know.
AriehnV: err Star Wars the old republic
ArPharazonV: Hmm, fair enough. Any idea how many characters you're allowed in total?
Eonwe Valar: So, assuming no further subdivisions, the region to join with Valar Guild members will obviously be "The Americas."
Eonwe Valar: I haven't seen that info, no.
AriehnV: I cancelled my accounts there and in Star Trek Online there before i decided to return WoW US
Eonwe Valar:
AriehnV: just to save on the costly side a bit :-)
Eonwe Valar: For quick access to the D3 site.
Eonwe Valar: Varda linked the blog I'm drawing this info from.
VardaValar1: Just don't delete your characters and you can return later on.
AriehnV: nah no characters deleted
VardaValar1: This ability to play in any region you choose is especially helpful to travelers and our players in the military.
Eonwe Valar: Since that should cover the D3 stuff, and we're already sharing other gaming, I'll open the floor up for any other Gaming News at this point :}

ArPharazonV: Ehh, just a few flashgames. Not much special this week. I also played the demos some more of the MLP games that I linked last week; the My Little Investigations demo has had a new version with some bugfixes and improvements since then.
AriehnV: I also reinstalled Warcraft three Reing of Chaos and Frozen Throne
AriehnV: I played a wee bit on solo compaing and made it onto the Forbidden Islands to the Master Traitor drak thul
AriehnV: I found the Blackrock clan but have yet to conquer them ;-)
AriehnV: thats it from me
ArPharazonV: I'm trying to figure out what campaign we're talking about here.
AriehnV: on the Frozen Throne
AriehnV: the solo alliance campaign
ArPharazonV: Ohh, yes, the night elf campaign, with the ghost from Gul'dan's clan?
AriehnV: aye that sounds like it
ArPharazonV: Can't remember the clan-name... they were blue in Warcraft II.
AriehnV: with Maiev and Nyala
AriehnV: Blackrock
ArPharazonV: No, that wasn't their clan in WarII.
ArPharazonV: Stormreaver, that's it.
AriehnV: Blacktooth Grim?
Eonwe Valar: Blue was Stormreaver
fladrifv has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: What Phar said, hehe.
AriehnV: ok :-)
ArPharazonV: Blackrock, Stormreaver, Black Tooth Grin, Twilight's Hammer, Burning Blade... what am I missing...
Eonwe Valar: Laughing Skull
Eonwe Valar: I think that was a clan, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: Maybe not.
AriehnV: hehe aye the ohers are clans too but Legion ones :-)
ArPharazonV: Laughing Skull was in the expansion, I think. If we take that one into account there's also Shadowmoon and.. Warsong?
ArPharazonV: Bleeding Hollow, I think that was in the original.
AriehnV: Bleeding Hollow is one too
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, is there any other Gamign News?
Eonwe Valar: *Gaming
ArPharazonV: Ah, sorry for the tangent ;-)
AriehnV: my fault as well , I apologize
VardaValar1: np, Tangents are Us!
Eonwe Valar: No worries, just didn't want us to get caught up in it too much :}
Eonwe Valar: Ok, since there's no other Gaming News, it's time for....

Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
Eonwe Valar: And today I have a Tolkien Moment that amused me as I perused LotR for my recent RP post.
VardaValar1: ("Ambush" should be fixed now.)
Eonwe Valar: To set the mood, this is from "The Council of Elrond."
Eonwe Valar: Gloin is telling of a messenger sent to Dain from Mordor to seek a thief named "Baggins."
Eonwe Valar: "And then his fell voice was lowered, and he would've sweetened it if he could.
Eonwe Valar: 'As a small token only of your friendship Sauron asks this,' he said, 'that you should find this thief,' such was his word, 'and get from hism, willing or no, a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole. It is but a trifle that Sauron fancies, and an earnest of your good will.
Eonwe Valar: Find it, and three rings that the Dwarf-sires possessed of old shall be returned to you, and the realm of Moria shall be yours for ever.'"
Eonwe Valar: Now, I'm no Dark Lord, but it seems to me that telling some potential enemies that you're searching for a ring, and then offering them RINGS as a reward, would set off some alarms in even old Barliman's head.
VardaValar1: hmm, sounds suspicious. Plus the realm of Moria? That's a lot!
ArPharazonV: Hmm yes. He was posing it as a small test of their good will towards Mordor, but... I don't think many would fall for that.
AriehnV: well if he offers that than its no small trifle or mere sign of good will
AriehnV: especially if the ring in question is ..
Eonwe Valar: "Give me this ring, and I'll give you THREEE! No, the ring isn't important, just a trinket, but it's worth at least THREE Rings of Power to me, plus a giant hole in the ground that's the only known source of mithril. But it's only something I fancy! Really!"
AriehnV: "one ring to rule them all , one ring to find them , one ring to enslave them all and in darkness bind them "
VardaValar1: Hoping Dwarven greed would prevent them from thinking too deeply? Didn't work.
ArPharazonV: I can sort of see the point though. "If you're willing to work with us, we'll give you 3 rings and Moria. But to show you are, just do this little thing for us."
ArPharazonV: Not just a clear exchange, but also a portent towards future involvement, which they might hope clouds the matter a bit.
VardaValar1: Just doing this as a sign you're with us, and we'll reward your proof of loyalty. See our amazing generosity?
AriehnV: yeah .. the fish goes for the bait if its tasty enough
Eonwe Valar: Well, he gave them another option: "Find only news of the thief... and you shall have great reward and lasting friendship of the Lord."
AriehnV: yeah can see how that "friendship" works between the Dunlendings and the White hand in game ^^
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, aye.
VardaValar1: It's a good story arc. :-)
VardaValar1: Indis says hi from her mobile phone. :-)
ArPharazonV: hi Indis!
AriehnV: say hi back :-D
Eonwe Valar: "Isengard bids five." On the other hand, at least Isengard paid *something* hehe.
AriehnV: where is she these days?
AriehnV: doubt tho that the Dark Lord would pay even "that much" dry
VardaValar1: Today Indis is having dinner with her in-laws for Mother's Day. : )
Eonwe Valar: Saruman hadn't reached the point where those he was using could be cast off as having outlived their usefulness.
AriehnV: and the Noldo of Eriador had to find out the hard way how a "partnership" with Sauron worked
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: And heya to Indis :}
VardaValar1: The lure of techniques, knowlege. Really good with the bait bucket.
VardaValar1: For those who didn't notice yet, the latest posting on the RP is from Indis.
VardaValar1: *knowledge
AriehnV: One thing i have to give our Big Baddy, he knows his victims weaknesses which also was their strength
Eonwe Valar: I saw it, determining my next step, with both Elrond and Auros.
AriehnV: but Sauron always headed for turning those strengths into weaknesses
VardaValar1: karakedi25: Aiya to all
VardaValar1: Aye, Arien
ArPharazonV: I guess I'll throw a post in this week.
Eonwe Valar: He got them on a weak point too: Many of the Noldor in Eregion wanted to have their cake and eat it too: Stay in Middle-Earth, and have the bliss and beauty of Aman.
VardaValar1: See Lothlorien for a prime example.
Eonwe Valar: One might wonder why Sauron didn't offer Dain Gundabad as well as or instead of Moria, knowing it was a sacred place where Durin was believed to have awoken.
AriehnV: i can exactly see what how this would have gone ... dwarves give Sauron what he wants ----> they get what he promised ------------> big party with sore heids after ---------------->try to sort out rule in moria with sore heads ---> trouble brewing -----> Sauron offers advice --------> Sauron "suggests " guidelines and ruler ---------> Sauron contolls Dwarves ------> Sauron has formidable army of weapon- and aromorsmiths, not to mention fighters
ArPharazonV: Why Moria? What does he know about Moria? He claimed that it was his to give, so probably the orcs inside were under his control.
ArPharazonV: Did he know about the Balrog?
VardaValar1: Yes
AriehnV: hmm maybe he wanted to use the Balrog as well to rule Moria .. substitute the Dwarf ruler
VardaValar1: The Big Stick.
AriehnV: or just use him as whip
Eonwe Valar: "Sure, I said you could have Moria back. This guy with the flaming whip is merely and Advisor.. I'd advise you not to get on his bad side."
VardaValar1: The Balrog knew magic spells, was huge, used physical weapons too. And was loyal to Morgoth, well-knowing Sauron was Morgoth's right hand.
ArPharazonV: "Allright, you did as I asked, here's Moria. I've pulled out the orcs, do with it what you want. And don't mind that glow at the bottom, it's nothing, really."
VardaValar1: hehe Eonwe
ArPharazonV: And when the doors were closed...
Eonwe Valar: Any other comments? :}

VardaValar1: Some side comments about the rp with Indis. : )
VardaValar1: Would Phar and Arien be up next to post?
ArPharazonV: Probably, yeah. I'll throw mine in during the week.
ArPharazonV: No idea yet what I'm going to say.
VardaValar1: Fainan wants out of Riv and to the chase, like now! Meren would like to put down roots in Elrond's library. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Can't have all you Silvans traipsing off and possibly leaking info on what's going on in Rivendell though :}
VardaValar1: What would your character be thinking? What does he most want to do? Is he obsessing over his brother, their mission, want to investigate Imladris?
VardaValar1: If we hang in Riv, we might talk to folks there. If we're in the Wilds, we'll be shooting baddies, not talking to everybody on their way to everywhere from the Last Homely House.
VardaValar1: Maybe he should boot us out of the door. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Well, you talked to Legolas, and Frali talked to Gloin. The mission is already compromised :}
VardaValar1: Both of them already know the important stuff, more than we do.
Eonwe Valar: Time to throw all of you into RIvendell's dungeons! :}
VardaValar1: That would be... a closet? The pantry?
Eonwe Valar: A cellar,.. with a lock! :}
ArPharazonV: He'll probably want to read the book, tramp about Rivendell a bit to see what wildlife's out there, and then be off to the North.
VardaValar1: Not all that social, then.
VardaValar1: What does he do as a silvan noble in Mirkwood?
ArPharazonV: Not really. More at home in the wild, and a bit focused on the task. It's personal.
Eonwe Valar: Auros knows nothing about being focused on the task, hehehe.
VardaValar1: Doesn't he think he's done with his part? Auros I mean?
Eonwe Valar: (In case it wasn't obvious, that was meant to be funny :} I thought I gave the impression through the story Auros was all about his task :})
ArPharazonV: Mirkwood... I don't think he'd hang out in the Halls much. When younger, yes, but not now. Probably sleeping out in trees and ranging around the defenses of Mirkwood. I kinda envision him as hanging out with the animals more than people.
VardaValar1: He was. But isn't it done now?
Eonwe Valar: And aye, Auros, as far as he knows, is done.
VardaValar1: What duties as a noble of Mirkwood is he normally stuck with? Anything with trade maybe?
Eonwe Valar: Even Turin came back for food now and then, hehe.
AriehnV: Wine Casks :-D
ArPharazonV: As a noble he might find some respect amongst the other Elves, but he doesn't really hang out with nobility much. Mostly his father who has the noble duties still.
VardaValar1: Mirkwood is mostly about survival, at this point, but not wholly.
ArPharazonV: He, as well as his brother, prefer to get out more, do fieldwork. While his brother was more of a scout, ranging further and even moving among enemies in the northern mountains etc, Calion's more among the defensive range.
ArPharazonV: Presumably he'd have to take over the more noble duties of his father at some point, but well, Elves being unaging and all...
ArPharazonV: It's hard to set a society wherein people follow in their father's footsteps, when the lack of mortality-by-age doesn't actually mean that the children are likely to outlive their parents.
VardaValar1: Mirkwood is more aware of death by battle than most elven areas. Had a major wipe-out of its people in the Last Alliance, no Ring protection, and neighbor to Dol Guldur and Sauron himself.
ArPharazonV: Well yes. But when it comes to it, he's not less likely to die than his father. If anything, in the current state, both Calion and Calaron are at higher risk of dying in combat than their parents.
VardaValar1: Is there any difference at all between him and a common scout like Fainan?
ArPharazonV: When both parents and children are capable of living side by side, with the same "physical" maturity, for thousands of years, the generation-gap and idea that you have to outlive your parents kinda fades away.
ArPharazonV: Well yes, I suppose it does. He might be able to make his own way more, choosing his own assignments, or assisting where he thinks is necessary, while I imagine Fainan is more affected by orders from higher up.
Eonwe Valar: There's still some privileges and responsibility that goes along with it though, it would seem.
ArPharazonV: He also gets some respect from other defenders ranging the forest; and of course he's always welcome in the Halls if he chooses to go.
Eonwe Valar: Otherwise there would've been one less point of tension between Fėanor and Fingolfin.
ArPharazonV: And yes, there's responsibility, as he is expected to show his face in the more important defensive lines from time to time, or be there when things get tough, but he has no problem with this.
ArPharazonV: And if he's summoned to the Halls for something important, it's hard to refuse, of course.
Eonwe Valar: So what's Calion's and Calaron's dad doing if he's still hale enough to wield a sword? Not following the Denethor school of thought, I assume?
ArPharazonV: Look at his brother, for example, who was pretty much in the same situation; scouting further than most, and being sent to defend a major outpost in the west.
AriehnV: sitting in councils, spreading gossip, attending lavish dinners and indiulging in Mirkwood wine ^^
ArPharazonV: Hmm.. the father.. haven't thought about it much. He *would* be the one with the "noble duties". Advisor to the king? Trade prince? Maybe somewhere else from time to time?
ArPharazonV: ambassing?
VardaValar1: Dorwinion wine, the good stuff at the royal table?
ArPharazonV: And yes, he would be able to enjoy the Dorwinion :-)
AriehnV: Dorwinion of corst
VardaValar1: For royals. : )
AriehnV: Chateu Neuve de Dorwinion ..
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Running this on a side window, you might like:
ArPharazonV: Also, Thranduil's realm might be a bit large for him to deal with every little thing directly, so maybe the father's a bit of a government official or governor or mayor or something of some small part of Mirkwood.
ArPharazonV: But I think I established his home as being near the Halls.
VardaValar1: fan-made for Children of Hurin
ArPharazonV: Well made. Lotr music, of course, but I wonder where these scenes are originally from.
ArPharazonV: If custom-made, with armor and everything, it's quite impressive effort for one trailer.
VardaValar1: Variious movies. Some Kingdom of Heaven, some Willow, others.
ArPharazonV: ah, and I actually spot an orc from Lotr.
VardaValar1: Nice job of making so many different movie clips work together.
VardaValar1: Oh, and that LotR movie. :-)
Eonwe Valar: They made a LotR movie? :}
VardaValar1: I hear it was Peter Jackson's fault.
ArPharazonV: Yes! And over the last half a year or something I've been watching parts of it with brother and father on the weekend afternoons when we all happened to be free...
ArPharazonV: and yesterday we finished RotK.
VardaValar1: Be interesting if Joss Whedon did some Middle-earth movies.
VardaValar1: Cool, Phar, and grats!
ArPharazonV: So it's done now ;-) I jokingly said we might watch documentaries and audio commentaries now, but they don't seem interested.
Eonwe Valar: Depends on how well Joss Wedon understood Tolkien's works and themes.
ArPharazonV: Heh, they were only after the action anyway... and yet, I think they fell asleep right during the battle of the Black Gate.
VardaValar1: Just start running them and watch people come to the TV!
Eonwe Valar: hehe
VardaValar1: Have to re-run where they fell asleep then. : )
ArPharazonV: So I don't think we can expect them to join the guild any time soon.
ArPharazonV: Not like they're gamers, anyway.
VardaValar1: We need all types. : )
ArPharazonV: Hmm. The kid. Turin. I know him from somewhere. But I don't remember the movie's name.
VardaValar1: in the world.
VardaValar1: Part of the fun is trying to figure what movies the clips are from.
Eonwe Valar: Before I write my next part, is anyone else considering addressing Elrond?
ArPharazonV: Hmm, yes, I suppose Calion should. As soon as I figure out what he's going to say.
VardaValar1: Fainan is done. She just wants to get moving.
ArPharazonV: Probably along the lines of "Thanks, I'll start reading right away. Warn me for dinner."
Eonwe Valar: OK, I needed to know so I could know when it was safe to take him about his business.
VardaValar1: She might go nuts from being inside and find Auros trying to be peaceful outside.
VardaValar1: Aye, reason I asked if Phar wanted to post.
VardaValar1: Menel hasn't posted in a long time. Need to give him a push. ;-)
Eonwe Valar: I did have Elrond mention "another" hehe
ArPharazonV: Well, go for it if you want. I've done larger posts before where I start it before some of your posts and then work through them from my own view. If you have Elrond leave I can follow it up by "Before Elrond left, Calion did this and said that and blablah..."
Eonwe Valar: OK. I just thought I'd allow for a little more interaction in this scene :}
VardaValar1: Or we can wait and let you post. : )
ArPharazonV: This week. I'll do my best to do it this week. Probably early this week.
VardaValar1: Cool. : )
Eonwe Valar: OK, I'll wait for it then.
Eonwe Valar: Give me time to remember where Auros should be while all this is going on.
Eonwe Valar: I think I said the visit to his house was about the same time this meeting was going on, but I want to be sure.
ArPharazonV: Hey, it's Mim...
Eonwe Valar: ?
ArPharazonV: still watching the trailer ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Ah.
Eonwe Valar: I really should bang the gavel, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel*

Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting officially now :}
AriehnV: this trailer is epic
VardaValar1: *jump*
AriehnV: i watched it
AriehnV: was that all done by a group of Larpers or re-enactors?
ArPharazonV: No, it's parts from other movies.
Eonwe Valar: By the way, if it's in any character's mind to go looking for Auros at his house, no guarantee he'd be there :} Just want to warn you now :}
VardaValar1: He was outside, last you wrote. A restless Fainan might run across him.
ArPharazonV: I don't think it'd work as one movie, as the length and segmented structure of the trailer shows. Too many "chapters" in the story, with completely different casts, most of which tend to be exterminated or seperated as the story goes on. It'd probably work better as a trilogy like LotR, or even more parts.
AriehnV: i guess Frali joins the others at meal time or does fainan go looking for him?
VardaValar1: She is letting Frali visit the other Dwarves and doesn't want to intrude.
ArPharazonV: There's a Doriath section, and Outlaw section, a Nargothrond section, a Brethil section... tough to work that in one film.
AriehnV: Okie then just let me know when you move on and its time to reunite
AriehnV: Frali might go , see some smiths to do some professional discussion with the elven smiths or even go with Gimli and Gloin to the Hall of fire
VardaValar1: Frali might go look for the rest of the group?
AriehnV: or that ^^
Eonwe Valar: Auros was outside his house (an undetermined distance from Elrond's) last I wrote, aye. But no telling how much time has passed since the departure, and the audience with Elrond may not have been *that* short, depending on the detail of the story told.
Eonwe Valar: *the departure = the split-up of our company
VardaValar1: Making it harder to bump into him then. : )
Eonwe Valar: I'm considering segments where he will be in the Last Homely House, and scenes where he will be back at his house.
AriehnV: Right sunset time i think :-)
Eonwe Valar: Actually, that's a good point Arien. Might be getting a bit late to walk up to Auro's door for a visit, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: *Auros'
AriehnV: Unfortunately i cant join you tonight for a wow run since i start at eight tomorrow morning
VardaValar1: Gildor Inglorion told how they waited for Valacirca to rise and started singing. Noldor. Would any of that be going on in Rivendell, I wonder?
ArPharazonV: That's early, Arien!
Eonwe Valar: No worries, Arien, but thanks for thinking of us :}
VardaValar1: Ok, you're up late now already!
VardaValar1: Sleep fast!
AriehnV: hehe and getting up at around six :-)
Eonwe Valar: Go-time has gone anyway :}
AriehnV: its quarter past twelveright now
AriehnV: good luck in whatever ventures you might undertake :-)
AriehnV: I was crafting a bit on both hunter and warlock this morning
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
Eonwe Valar: GIldor etc... : That's an interesting idea, Varda.
AriehnV: Namarie :-)
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well :}
VardaValar1: Namarie Arien
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: There might be *some* singing.
Eonwe Valar: Depends on if they sung every night, just when they were out and about, only when celebrating,...
VardaValar1: That's the kind of tradition Fainan would find interesting and maybe take up at least at times. Hard to see much with the stars netted in branches in Mirkwood.
Eonwe Valar: Oh, another thing I should mention.. I'm probably going to drop the putting Fainan in the leadership postiion thing.
Eonwe Valar: *position
VardaValar1: Good. I can't see any reason for it at this time. It needs to grow out of the story.
VardaValar1: It could happen by just having a good idea of what to do next when they are traveling in the wilds, her natural place to be.
VardaValar1: She's going to be studying maps like crazy. : )
VardaValar1: Side window: karakedi25: Mer is casting covetous eyes on the book elrond showed calion
ArPharazonV: Auros and Calion having some arguments, and Fainan pulling our ears and shutting us up, telling us to play nice.
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: We might exchange books, actually. I can see Calion wanting to know more about the Rings, if Calaron is wearing one.
VardaValar1: Interrupting with hey, we need to get off the skyline onto the slope before we get shot, interrupting them, sort of thing.
VardaValar1: Read, do a book swap, notes and comments to each other, or just say you did those things. : )
Eonwe Valar: I thought the suddenness of it would be entertaining and appropriate for Auros' and Calion's not agreeing, but maybe it's better to just leave the two in contention and find a different way.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Iryenth has entered the room.
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ArPharazonV: Woah, that was odd.
VardaValar1: o oh
ArPharazonV: Last thing I read was Eonwe Valar: I thought the suddenness of it would be entertaining and appropriate for Auros' and Calion's not agreeing, but maybe it's better to just leave the two in contention and find a different way.
VardaValar1: Anything saved?
ArPharazonV: Yes. I didn't actually leave the room.
ArPharazonV: Just that, and then you 3 entering again.
VardaValar1: it was fast.
VardaValar1: EonweValar: I thought the suddenness of it would be entertaining and appropriate for Auros' and Calion's not agreeing, but maybe it's better to just leave the two in contention and find a different way.ArPharazon-V (ArPharazonV) has left the room. ArPharazon-V (ArPharazonV) has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: And I did see an AIM window thing pop up.
ArPharazonV: Ah, good.
ArPharazonV: Nothing missed then.
ArPharazonV: am I still here?
Eonwe Valar: Yes.
ArPharazonV: *grin* starting to worry now
Eonwe Valar: Just considering how the Auros/Calion thing should proceed, and caught in a couple of chats.
VardaValar1: Wound up in two side windows. ^^
VardaValar1: Should I save the chat, Phar?
ArPharazonV: I've saved up to here. But yes, it'd be useful to have 2 sources.
VardaValar1: Aye.
VardaValar1: On Notepad. Scary amount of white space, hoping to use your fair copy instead. :-)
Eonwe Valar: I realize you're rather bored with the conflict between Auros and Calion, Phar, I'm just not sure it's not something that's easily resolved in a couple of months between two people who are going to end up having to work together again. Though I would note that "conflict" doesn't mean "open aggression" so it's not going to be like we're at eachothers' throats.
VardaValar1: Just different viewpoints.
Eonwe Valar: *I'm just not sure it's something
ArPharazonV: I know, Eonwe. Though some sort of resolution might not be a long time coming, it would be useful, though, if we had an excuse to keep it reined in a bit.
ArPharazonV: Like... Fainan.
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Eonwe Valar: The general goal of keeping the group together would be one reason. I don't think it needs get ugly between Auros and Calion.
VardaValar1: :-)
ArPharazonV: To be honest, I am having difficulty remembering the exact nature of our conflict. I remember arguing about the wolf but there has to be something deeper going on, because the wolf has been out of our lives for some time now.
VardaValar1: and Aiya Menel
Eonwe Valar: But that doesn't mean it's going to be holding hands either, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Menel :}
VardaValar1: Aye, what was the conflict's kernel again?
ArPharazonV: And I think a bit of grudging respect and general social/casual avoidance has been working well for us both so far.
Eonwe Valar: The problem, from Auros' point of view is that he entrusted something to Calion and Calion ignored him and did his own thing, potentially jeopardizing Auros' mission.
VardaValar1: We were just talking about the RP, Menel. :-)
ArPharazonV: So he doesn't trust Calion. Allright.
Eonwe Valar: Whether it "all worked out in the end" more or less, is beside the point for Auros.
VardaValar1: Two people with different ideas about what the group should be focused on.
Eonwe Valar: If memory serves, it wasn't even a matter of "I disagree with you, Auros, and this is why." but an outright "I don't care what you just said, I'm doing this."
Eonwe Valar: THough that last part may be oversimplifying, as I need to reread the initial conflict there again.
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ArPharazonV: It was probably a bit of both. I don't agree with you, it's clear why, and if you don't accept that, I'll do it my way anyway.
ArPharazonV: Bit of point of principle on Calion's behalf.
VardaValar1: Kind of like Oropher's charge on his own. Lethal bull-headedness.
Eonwe Valar: Good reference.
Eonwe Valar: Because Calion and Oropher are both from Mirkwood :}
ArPharazonV: For different reasons, of course :-) But I understand the parallel.
ArPharazonV: We Mirkwoodians might be rather set in our ways.
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: WB hopefully, Menel :}
VardaValar1: Welcome back, Menel. : )
Menelvagor Valar: Aye, back :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiyata :-)
Menelvagor Valar: The main room crashed when I closed the "other" main room which held the invitation ^^
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: But as far as Auros goes, he *can* be reasonable, but he doesn't taken blatant disregard very well.
Eonwe Valar: *doesn't take
Menelvagor Valar: Auros is usually very reasonable, from a Noldo perspective.
ArPharazonV: hah
Eonwe Valar: How has he been unreasonable from standards not fitting to Noldor, out of curiosity? :}
Menelvagor Valar: not.
Menelvagor Valar: Which fits usually rather good :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I am certein that at one point in his long life he has been unreasonable :-P
ArPharazonV: If I recall right, Calion's not too impressed by Auros' valuing of the local wildlife while a little effort could save a life and provide us an ally. But it's probably cultural differences, and he's not to know Calion's skill with the fauna :-)
Menelvagor Valar: certain *
Eonwe Valar: I'm sure anyone who's lived 3000 years would have a chance to come off badly at some point, aye Menel :}
Eonwe Valar: Some of us get multiple chances in less than a hundred years, hehe.
Menelvagor Valar: aye :-)
VardaValar1: or five minutes. *cough*
Eonwe Valar: lol
Menelvagor Valar: Come to think of it.... I haven't even considered Estarion's age ^^
VardaValar1: The more active you are, the better chance you have of goofing up. So it's not necessarily a bad sign. : )
Eonwe Valar: It wasn't that Auros doesn't value wildlife, it's that it was an enemy, and then Calion turned a wild animal it into a "pet," neither good from Auros' perspective.
VardaValar1: We originally based the story on LotRO (Middle-earth Online) and it said we would play young elves, so that's what I did. : )
Eonwe Valar: 3000 is young for a Noldo.... :}
ArPharazonV: Ah, such a black and white view. If it's an enemy it needs to die, regardless of redemptive possibility ;-)
VardaValar1: You kid you.
ArPharazonV: 3000...
ArPharazonV: was Arwen around that age?
VardaValar1: A dangerous wild animal, you can see that viewpoint.
Eonwe Valar: Arwen was a couple hundred years shy of that.
Menelvagor Valar: When was Auros born actually?
Eonwe Valar: When somethign is trying to kill you, especially in large numbers, you don't normally give it a chance to change its mind, hehe.
Menelvagor Valar: very true, I would see it the same.
Eonwe Valar: Since i'm sure it's come up before, I can safely tell you: late Second Age. The Last Alliance was his first war.
VardaValar1: Wonder if we keep any pet spiders. But no, they're intelligent, talk and have a society.
Eonwe Valar: Or you could say ,the First War of the Ring, hehe.
ArPharazonV: Well Calion saw an opportunity, and he took it; dismissing Auros was not a matter of rejection of authority, but more the acceptance that Auros was incapable of seeing Calion's point of view. Easier to do it first and then explain, rather than to ask permission first and then having to argue about it while still in combat.
ArPharazonV: Wasn't this wolf the last one alive anyway?
ArPharazonV: Don't remember.
VardaValar1: Legolas was considered a young elf, probably born after Thranduil came home from the Last Alliance and sige of Barad-dur. Fainan is younger than that. So no major wars. Just fun with Dol Guldur.
ArPharazonV: Calion's not that old either. Legolas' age then, possibly slightly younger.
Eonwe Valar: Every one of us has to be at least 50+ to 100 years of age, since 50ish is the age of maturity, but some continued to grow up to 100.
ArPharazonV: Make it some 2000 to 2500 years.
ArPharazonV: Perhaps younger.
ArPharazonV: I don't know how fast they mature emotionally. Arwen was still a young adult at nearly 3000.
Menelvagor Valar: I think Estarion would be a couple hundred. at most.
Eonwe Valar: I think the wolf was the last one anyway, but none of the others backed down from a fight. What if the wolves had run? they should've been killed to ensure they brought no message back to their master.
ArPharazonV: Pooh, I'd have to look at the details. I'm pretty sure it was contained?
Menelvagor Valar: If you reckon that most Noldor are at least are at least 3 times that age.
Eonwe Valar: I'm pretty sure Elves mature in that manner alot faster than humans.
VardaValar1: Second Age 3441, end of the siege.
Eonwe Valar: It was contained, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a threat the moment the "containment" dropped.
VardaValar1: 3434 siege began. Long time there.
ArPharazonV: I can see how Auros would have that point of view, yes :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Only 10 years.
Menelvagor Valar: When did the first age start exactly? With the awakening of the Elves?
VardaValar1: 3441 is the end of the siege and the Second Age. So figure a year before the baby boom and that was probably when Legolas was born. Year 1 or 2 of the Third Age. We're younger.
Menelvagor Valar: Third age lasted almost 3000 years, didn't it?
ArPharazonV: First Age.... that's rather vague. The creation of Arda and arrival of the Valar, perhaps. Or the awakening of the Elves. Or the migration. Or the arrival in Aman. Or maybe, at its shortest, at the exodus; which would make the First Age last only 600 years.
VardaValar1: Fainan seems a bit younger than the others except Frali.
Eonwe Valar: The First Age is a bit tricky. The First Age of the Sun and Moon (shortened to the First Age of the Sun) would start when the Moon first rose.
ArPharazonV: Second and Third Ages were roughly 3000 years.
ArPharazonV: Yes, Eonwe, which would make the whole thing 600 years.
VardaValar1: 3012 last year of the Third Age
ArPharazonV: In fact, I'm pretty sure the Third Age was.. 3019 years long?
ArPharazonV: ah, 12
VardaValar1: sorry
VardaValar1: 3021 dyslexic typing
Menelvagor Valar: So, the oldest elves are no more than roughly 7000 years.
Eonwe Valar: But there's stuff going on after the Death of the Two Trees, so how much of that should be counted and all, what time period that would take up..
ArPharazonV: Ehr... no, Menel, if the First Age started with the sun and the moon and the exodus, you'd still need to add the entire time the 3 races spent in Valinor prior to that.
Eonwe Valar: And where exactly you would switch from the Valian Year to the Year of the Sun,...
VardaValar1: so the Third Age was 3,021 years long.
Menelvagor Valar: Yeah, but that's why I reckoned the first age started with the awakening of the Elves.
Eonwe Valar: The oldest Elves we have a name for would probably be Ingwė, the High-King of all Elves, and Olwė, brother of Elwė.
Menelvagor Valar: And the coming to Valinor at the latest.
VardaValar1: Arwen was born TA 241
ArPharazonV: Let's just say, from the exodus of the Noldor back to Beleriand, to the time of LotR, was about 7000 years.
ArPharazonV: So that would be the age of the sun.
Menelvagor Valar: aye.
Eonwe Valar: Both came from Cuivienen during the Ages of the Trees, lived 3 Ages of Melkor's Captivity measure in Valian Years,, made it through the Ages of the Sun, and are presumably still alive.
Menelvagor Valar: And that includes a LOT of Noldo.
karakedi25 has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya Indis!
Menelvagor Valar: Noldor dagnabbit.
VardaValar1: Oct 25, 3018 Council of Elrond
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis :-)
karakedi25: Aiya, Indis is home.\
VardaValar1: Welcome home :-)
karakedi25: Noldor dagnabit?
karakedi25: thanks
VardaValar1: Dec 25, 3018 Fellowship leaves Rivendell.
Eonwe Valar: Eh typed Noldo when he meant Noldor :}
Eonwe Valar: He dagnabbit :}
karakedi25: ah
ArPharazonV: Right. 3019 was the year of the Ring's destruction. 25th of March.
Menelvagor Valar: From a quick calcuation in chances and what we know of the Noldor, I would say that somewhere between a 10th and a 20th part (big difference, I know) from the current Noldor population are that old....
ArPharazonV: The current population... in Middle-Earth?
Menelvagor Valar: And I would think most of the Noldor would have been born during the time in Valinor, as we know of very few elves younger than that.
Menelvagor Valar: no, all.
Eonwe Valar: We really only know of the nobility among the Elves.
Eonwe Valar: We don't hear too much about the common Quendi.
Menelvagor Valar: I'd say that about 5/10th would be pre- exodus.
ArPharazonV: Nobility got into the habit of getting wiped out. Realize that Elrond himself, highest noble of Rivendell, was "just" about 6000 years old.
Eonwe Valar: Except in generalizations like Caranthir's people being of like mind concerning the Dwarves he traded with.
Menelvagor Valar: and the remainder at the end of first and second ages mostly.
ArPharazonV: Well, 6500.
Eonwe Valar: Galadriel, Celeborn, and since he *is* still in ME at the time Maglor, would be among the oldest Elves still alive in Endor.
VardaValar1: I wonder how many felt like having children when there was so much talk of going West?
Eonwe Valar: Celeborn should be Cirdan, though Celeborn can probably be counted too.
ArPharazonV: Didn't the appendix say that with Celeborn went all living memory of the First Age?
ArPharazonV: In other words perhaps.
Menelvagor Valar: Celeborn and Galadriel were wed during the time in Valinor, so if First Age starts with the exodus, then, yes.
Eonwe Valar: The had children during the First Age. There were enough peaceful times during the Second for them to have decided it was safe to bear and raise children, including a spot at the end of the Second Age before Sauron came back, and since there was still *some* hope of the Rings maintaining their realms in the Third Age, there's *some* chance *some* may have had children early in the Third Age.
ArPharazonV: ..Like Arwen as an obvious example.
Eonwe Valar: Caleborn was Sindarin from all the canon I remember.
Iryenth has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: *Celeborn
Menelvagor Valar: Not many remaining in Middle Earth though.
Eonwe Valar: UT or HoME say in spots he was in Valinor, but pretty sure Sil and LotR have him as Sindarin.
ArPharazonV: Different theories. Some sources say Sindarin, some say Teleri.
Menelvagor Valar: If you consider that many Elves never bore more children in their lives than an average human does.
Eonwe Valar: And aye, whether they had children or not, the Noldor, or all Eldar really, were definitely a dwindling population.
Menelvagor Valar: At least, not from the ones we know of.
Eonwe Valar: Fėanor was the top recorded.
Eonwe Valar: *Insert link to my Elves article here for reference, hehe*
Menelvagor Valar: top recorded?
Eonwe Valar:
ArPharazonV: Highest amount of kids on record.
Menelvagor Valar: ah.
Menelvagor Valar: 7, right?
Eonwe Valar: Laws and Customs says Fėanor had 7 children, and no one was ever recorded as having more than that.
Menelvagor Valar: ok.
Menelvagor Valar: I think my estimate might then not be far off.
Eonwe Valar: I doubt it happened, since Elven records were probably very good about stuff like that, but I thought it important to note the caveat.
Menelvagor Valar: I agree ^^
VardaValar1: Sindarin and Teleri are in the same group. Sure not Noldor though.
ArPharazonV: Well it's hard to say what populations of Elves these recorders might not have had access to.
ArPharazonV: There might be Silvan Elves or at least Mirkwood Elves in the First Age or earlier who had more children than that. Just can't tell.
ArPharazonV: Not to mention the Avari.
Eonwe Valar: I'm pretty sure the average for ELves was *about* 3, but can't find the reference in my Elves article right now.
Menelvagor Valar: Yes, but in this case it's very safe to assume that these records would be completely accurate.
Menelvagor Valar: I would consider these books of history to have been written or compiled somewhere between the end of the third age and Dagor Dagorlad.
Menelvagor Valar: And, as far as we know, all the remainder of the Noldor went back to Valinor when Sauron was defeated.
Eonwe Valar: Except Maglor presumably :}
VardaValar1: Elladan and Elrohir remained, taking care of Imladris.
Menelvagor Valar: With the odd exception here and there.
ArPharazonV: Arwen remained, though not for long. On the large scale.
VardaValar1: After most of the Lorien elves left, Celelborn went to stay with the twins at Imladris for a time, until he too went West.
Eonwe Valar: But aye, I think it's safe to assume there was no Noldoring population to speak of even barely into the Fourth Age.
VardaValar1: *Celeborn
Eonwe Valar: *Noldorin
Menelvagor Valar: I was wondering what sort of people might be Noldoring *wink*
Eonwe Valar: A quick comment on Menel's I would consider these books of history to have been written or compiled somewhere between the end of the third age and Dagor Dagorlad.:
Menelvagor Valar: aye? :-)
ArPharazonV: Noldoring is obviously whatever Noldor do in a non-specific way.
Eonwe Valar: There is a spot or two, as Tolkien was working the cosmology into a more,.. realistic,.. one, that some of the legends (that we take for granted) were misunderstandings by Men of lore from ELves.
ArPharazonV: "What are those Noldor doing?" "Noldoring, probably."
Eonwe Valar: hehe Phar.
Eonwe Valar: Such as the Sun and Moon coming from the Two Trees. Properly, the Sun would already have to exist for the Solar System to exist.
ArPharazonV: "Why are all these planets orbitting around nothing?" "I know, let's put the fruit of Laurelin in there, it might light things up a bit."
Eonwe Valar: Additionally, the Elves, through their own astronomy (they did like stars after all) and through the teaching of the valar, would already know this.
Eonwe Valar: The Calaquendi at least.
Menelvagor Valar: Oh, it's perfectly viable that planets were orbiting around something else... like a star before it ignites, a black hole.... or anything that generaes enormous amounts of gravitic pull.
VardaValar1: (A mention of the event we helped host:
VardaValar1: )
Eonwe Valar: Except a black hole in the place of Anar would've already swallowed much of the Solar System by the time the Valar got around to putting a live star there.
VardaValar1: *spit it out* Now! *slap*. There we go.
Menelvagor Valar: Not necessarily :-)
Eonwe Valar: Plus I tend to think black holes are more of Morgoth's thing, a product of Arda Marred rather than Arda Unmarred, and not something Manwė would have in the center of his realm, the flagship realm of all creation.
Menelvagor Valar: As we don't really know how black holes work, it might be that the waste product of a black hole would be an enormously light corona of Anti-matter dust.... or some other wildlty imagined thing :-D
VardaValar1: Some black holes send out jets of very degraded material in shining jets, like out of a pinhole.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, but point is, a bright point of light is the sky is more hope-inspiring than some giant monster sucking in all around you :}
Eonwe Valar: *Cough* Varda vs Ungoliant *cough*
VardaValar1: *sails bright boats into the sky*
VardaValar1: *Varda slaps Ungoliant down with a large flyswatter. squick* Varda 1, Ungoliant 0.
Eonwe Valar: hehehe
Eonwe Valar: But according the the "Sun was always there version", the Sun was, as my descriptive name says ,always there, and Morgoth cast up clouds around Arda that blocked it out.
Menelvagor Valar: Yes, but would you know that it was a giant monster sucking all around it until it was too late?
Menelvagor Valar: And you do know that it has been said the the center of every Galaxy is a monstrously large Black Hole?
Eonwe Valar: Aye, I do know that.
Eonwe Valar: I'm speaking simply in terms of Ea though :}
Menelvagor Valar: Well, in that case, they were orbiting around Eru with a reading light tied to his head.
Eonwe Valar: And in Ea, as Tulkas said "Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Ea, and evil yet be good to have been."
Eonwe Valar: To which Mandos said:" And yet remain evil." :}
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Menelvagor Valar: I think I might need the context of the previous sentences.
Eonwe Valar: If Tolkien has tried to address Black Holes in any manner, I've either forgotten it, or not come across it, but I tend to think Morgoth would be linked to them.
ArPharazonV: I find it hard to see *how* we could misinterpret that as a fruit from a golden tree, though, unless the trees were made because of the clouds up there, and the clouds were only chased off because the trees were dead and the Valar had to get another light source.
Eonwe Valar: Excuse me, that wasn't Tulkas that said it, it was Manwė
Menelvagor Valar: You don't know the elemental composure, nor the density or mass of a fruit of the trees.
Eonwe Valar: "And it was told by the Vanyar who held vigil with the Valar that wen the messengers declared to Manwė the answers of Fėanor to his heralds, Manwė wept and bowed his hed.
Eonwe Valar: *head
Menelvagor Valar: It is entirely possible that the trees' fruits might have been ultra-heavy nuclear material :-)
Eonwe Valar: But at that last word of Fėanor: that at the least the Noldor should do deeds to live in song for ever, he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: 'So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Ea, and evil yet be good to have been.'
Eonwe Valar: But Mandos said: 'And yet remain evil. To me shall Fėanor come soon.'"
Menelvagor Valar: Ah, but still the sentence doesn't make sense :-P
Menelvagor Valar: I understand what it means and its intentions, but the grammar is all wrong.
Menelvagor Valar: well, not just the grammar.
Menelvagor Valar: It's the "and evil yet good to have been" that doesn't quite work in my head.
VardaValar1: It works.
Eonwe Valar: If Men awoke when the Sun was fully visible in the sky, and some Elves came along talking about Trees that lit the world when the sky was dark, add a few thousand years without Elves there to keep the story straight, plus lost ability and interest to read old lore from scrolls, and all you get is word of mouth.
ArPharazonV: It works, if you insert the "shall" from the part before.
VardaValar1: It's parallelism, aye. The shall is shared.
Menelvagor Valar: aye, but I have absolutely no clue whatsoever what "evil" is supposed to be.
Menelvagor Valar: or rather, what is supposed to be "evil".
Eonwe Valar: The death of Finwė, the death of the Two Trees, the theft of the SIlmarilli, Fėanor's response thereto,...
VardaValar1: burning the Teleri ships
Menelvagor Valar: check.
ArPharazonV: In this case, mostly Feanor's response, and his decision to make war on Morgoth; followed by the Kinslaying, the burning of the ships...
VardaValar1: abandoning a large part of his party
Eonwe Valar: It's because Fėanor storms off into Endor that the defense against Morgoth is strengthened. The way he does it is the big problem.
VardaValar1: pushing an impossible oath onto his kids, that would affect nearly everyone
VardaValar1: causing schisms between the elf groups
Menelvagor Valar: Then it thus stands to be that the beauty before not conceived is a direct result of the evil deeds, and therefore remain evil.
Eonwe Valar: The evil that caused it is evil.
VardaValar1: Aye, the cause is evil. And Feanor dies early.
ArPharazonV: The beauty before not conceived, I would then take to be the songs and legends that remain of Feanor's war, as mentioned earlier, which would be the result of his evil.
VardaValar1: Evil forced others to do great deeds that were beautiful: Finrod's self-sacrifice to save Beren is directly related, for instance.
ArPharazonV: As well as all the heroic actions taken in the war, yes.
Eonwe Valar: The death of Finwė and the violation of Fėanor's rights in theft of the SIlmarilli are both evil acts that spurred Fėanor to march in search of justice/revenge. It was his own foolishness that broght in the Oath.
Eonwe Valar: *brought
Eonwe Valar: And aye to what Varda and Phar said.
VardaValar1: Feanor forgot that the light of the Silmarils was not of his making. He ignored that the Teleri ships were as great to them as silmarils to him. Only Feanor mattered to Feanor.
Eonwe Valar: But the knowledge the Noldor brought back to Endor uplifted the Sindar and the Atani.
VardaValar1: Aye
Eonwe Valar: Aye to Varda.
VardaValar1: And one wonders if at some time in the future that knowledge might not have been brought back peacably, in visits to the elves still in Middle-earth?
VardaValar1: We already had Ainur teaching the Sindarin folk that were waiting for Thingol.
ArPharazonV: Not sure. How much further in the future? The ages of Valinor were quite long compared to the ages of Middle-earth and during all that time nobody ever expressed a desire to go back to Middle-earth for peaceful purposes.
ArPharazonV: Nobody of the Elves, in any case.
Eonwe Valar: The valar seemed content to leave those Elves who remained in Endor to their freedom.
ArPharazonV: If it weren't for the war, it could have been a long, long time before those visits would come.
VardaValar1: Melian, Osse, Ulmo
VardaValar1: I can imagine Teleri ships eventually going back to visit.
Eonwe Valar: And they didn't really interfere in the affairs of the Calaquendi either, except when Melkor's lies started causing problems for everyone.
VardaValar1: Melkor and Sauron were Ainur, so their mess needed cleaned up, even quietly.
Menelvagor Valar: and eventually. Time was not an issue the Ainur were ever indicated to be aware of.
Eonwe Valar: Hmm?
Eonwe Valar: The Valar measured time...
Menelvagor Valar: not as elves do.
Eonwe Valar: Elves don't measure time as Mortals do :}
Menelvagor Valar: exactly.
Eonwe Valar: The Valar basically set up the mechanisms by which time *can* be measured.
Menelvagor Valar: think of how timeless these misinformed humans would think the Valar to be? :-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Jumping back to about an hour of conversation ago, were we saying anything about the RP that we were supposed to be talking about? :}
Eonwe Valar: I think the last thing was Phar and me discussing the Auros/Calion conflict.
ArPharazonV: yes, it was; we got to age/time from there.
Eonwe Valar: Funny how we managed to come all the way here from there.
ArPharazonV: Yes. We're right back on ages and time :P
Eonwe Valar: Hehe.
VardaValar1: o, there were at one time Ainur of time. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye :}
Menelvagor Valar: Eonwe... I always explain our discussions as being able to start somewhere and go a thousand side topics around it, and then end where we started.
ArPharazonV: I think it's about time I called it a night.
ArPharazonV: Still mortal here, after all.
Eonwe Valar: OK :}
Menelvagor Valar: I ceased wondering about the directions we might take a couple of years ago, when I started wondering that exact same thing for the umpteenth time :-D
Eonwe Valar: I await your post to the RP :}
Eonwe Valar: Hehe Menel.
Eonwe Valar: Don't forget to stop in on the RP either, Menel :}
VardaValar1: Nighty night, Phar :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I won't this time :-)
ArPharazonV: Night!
ArPharazonV: Saving and sending.
ArPharazon-V: saved
EonweValar: Thanks Phar and Sleep well :}
VardaValar1: Thanks!

ArPharazon-V: Oh, and if you're entering D3 this week, will you post on the forum where to find each other?
EonweValar: There should be a D3 forum to do so :}
Menelvagor Valar: I will ^^
EonweValar: Pick "The Americas" :}
ArPharazon-V: You're making a D3 section? (or is there one already?)
EonweValar: Ther eis one already.
ArPharazon-V: Ah, great.
EonweValar: Just go to the "Diablo Series" board, and there's a sub-board for D3.
ArPharazon-V: I will, when the time comes :)
VardaValar1: :-)

ArPharazon-V: transcript sent
VardaValar1: Yay!
ArPharazon-V: Namarie folks!
EonweValar: Sleep well ;}
ArPharazon-V: Will do.
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EonweValar: Hmm, they changed the inventory icon for Dark Iron Ore.
EonweValar: It looks like a solid stone now.
VardaValar1: Are we in WoW now? :-)
VardaValar1: I'll pop over.
EonweValar: I'm the only one there.
VardaValar1: The main one. :-)
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VardaValar1: Menel, Eowyn says hi from WoW, mentioned that you're friends on Facebook. :-)
EonweValar: OK, this is interesting. The inventory icon has changed, but the drag-and-drop icon is the same. Sounds like someone made a typo somewhere they shouldn't have.
VardaValar1: Likely :-)
VardaValar1: Tons of code.
VardaValar1: Hey Menel, most of your stuff in Facebook is in Dutch, but Bing has a translation balloon for it.
VardaValar1: Some wild translations, might help with the gist though. ;-)
VardaValar1: I think Eowyn is headed for LotRO just because it's Mother's Day, but that's sweet. :-)
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EonweValar: In reference to my comment earlier about the cosmology and the Elves "knowing" that Anar would already exist, etc., here's a quote I was referring to, from "Myths Transformed" in HoME10
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VardaValar1: hi
EonweValar (Eonwe Valar) has entered the room.
EonweValar: Wow, it finally let me back in.
EonweValar: OK, quick quote since I wrote it in Notepad just in case.
EonweValar: "It is now clear to me that in any case the  Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' affair. (Men are really only interested in Men and in Men's ideas and visions.) The High Eldar living and being tutored by the demiurgic beings must have known, or at least their writers and loremasters must have know, the 'truth' (according to their measure of understanding).
EonweValar: What we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions (especially personalized, and centred upon *actors*, such as Fëanor) handed on be *Men* in NUmenor and later in Middle-Earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back - from the first association of the Dunedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar in Beleriand - blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas.
EonweValar: At that point (in reconsideration of the early cosmogonic parts) I was inclined to adhere to the Flat Earth and the astronimically absurd business of the making of the Sun and Moon. But you can make up stories of that kind when you live among people who have the same general background of imagination, when the Sun 'really" rises in the East and goes down in the West etc. When however (no matter how little most people know or think about astronomy) it is the general belief that we live upon a 'sperical' island in "Sapce' you cannot do this any more.
EonweValar: One loses, of course, the dramatic impact of such things as the first 'incarnates' waking in a starlit world - or the coming of the High Elves to Middle-earth and unfurling their banners at the *first* rising of the Moon."
EonweValar: That's near the start of "Myths Transformed" in Morgoth's RIng. I use asterisks to denote italics since Notepad doesn't have italics.
EonweValar: Feel free to read when you wake up :}
VardaValar1: hehe
EonweValar: I now shall take this chance to crawl into bed, since I just read all of "Myths Transformed" hehe.
VardaValar1: Nice!
VardaValar1: I'll see about putting this transcript online and crater too. :-)
EonweValar: Alot of interesting stuff there, big chunks of it touching on what we talked about.
EonweValar: :}
VardaValar1: Makes me want to read it. :-)
EonweValar: :}
EonweValar: Take care, good night, sleep well, and have fun :}
VardaValar1: Namarie :-)