Valar Guild

March 4, 2012 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (8)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), Galdor-(V)/galdorandwe, Gilraen-(V)/Iryenth, Glorfindel VG, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, and VardaValar1.

Meeting begins
    Link to a Sindarin-English dictionary pdf added to our Links page/
    Mass Effect 3
    Balrogs and other scary things.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Phar. Dropping in a tad early. :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Well, so did I :-)
VardaValar1: You sure did!
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: aiya Valarites :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien :-)
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
galdorandwe has entered the room.
Iryenth has entered the room.
galdorandwe: Aiya
Iryenth: Aiya all
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe, Galdor, and Gilraen :-)
galdorandwe: Aiya Varda
Iryenth: Gwaihir is playing the Mass Effect 3 demo and then will be cooking, but sends greetings
VardaValar1: Nice. Is he enjoying it? :-)
Eonwe Valar: And soon he'll be playing the actual game I bet, hehe :}
Iryenth: seems to be so far.
VardaValar1: Cool :-)
Iryenth: Yes, Eo, he's going to the midnight release at the local game store
Eonwe Valar: Cool :}
VardaValar1: Eonwe will have the gavel this time.
ArPharazonV: Aiya folks
Eonwe Valar: Let's go ahead and begin the meeting.

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: Any Membership news?
VardaValar1: Fangorn is home :-)
VardaValar1: We hope to have several of us joining you in WoW tonight, Eonwe. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Any more membership news?
AriehnV: I am back at work :-(
AriehnV: well not at the moment obviously but my holidays are over
VardaValar1: Happy Sunday :-)
VardaValar1: Labor Day tomorrow, so we may have more online Monday
AriehnV: Unless one is working ,pfft . like me
AriehnV: not too long tho i ll be finished around 11.15 am your time
VardaValar1: I may be wrong about that. Passed the calendar fast.

Eonwe Valar: Web:
Eonwe Valar: New Tolkien link from Galdor
Eonwe Valar: Ambar-Eldaron: Sindarin-English, English-Sindarin dictionary pdf.

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: aiya
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
galdorandwe: Hey Indis
Eonwe Valar: This month's Darkmoon Faire is going. Get in your quests, games, and fishing in the nodes off its coast for easy crafting materials, by Saturday.
VardaValar1: (that was Labor Day in Australia, pardon)
Eonwe Valar: Lothar:
VardaValar1: Sounds fun :-)
AriehnV: very nice this dictionary
Eonwe Valar: Sunday Run:
ArPharazonV: Should be the dancing bear mount for me this Faire ;-)
Eonwe Valar: We didn't have enough at go time, so the run was called. However Bilbo, Varda, and Glorfindel ran a random heroic dungeon or two later on.
Eonwe Valar: Friday Run:
Eonwe Valar: I didn't make it in Friday, but it seems Zul'Farrak was run in my absence.

Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: Varda, your floor.
VardaValar1: Thank you
VardaValar1: In the kin message in LotRO feel free to copy/paste the coupon code for a free Scroll of Combination. I just got one, so it works.
VardaValar1: The coupon code is 33CDC1
VardaValar1: The forum now has a sign-up sheet for next Saturday's run, posted by Miriel, our Saturday organizer who's been doing a fantastic job. :-)
AriehnV: Has she put up a sign up for Helegrod the seckond?
AriehnV: second even :-)
VardaValar1: Take a look, not sure what all is on her Saturday sign up sheet. Let us know. :-)
VardaValar1: Monday we ran the Foundry.
Eonwe Valar: The LotRO forum has a signup for the Drake Wing, yes.
VardaValar1: ah good, thanks Eonwe. :-)
VardaValar1: Wednesday we completed three six-man skirmishes: taking down the boss Thadur in the Great Barrows: Water-wing, and two completions of the Prancing Pony - partly to collect deeds and partly for the various tokens.
VardaValar1: Saturday morning the group ran the 12-man Helegrod wings for the Spiders and the Drakes.
VardaValar1: Then for the 1pm run, we warmed up with the Prancing Pony 12-man.
VardaValar1: We then did the big run going after the dragon Draigoch on tier 2 to allow a 12-man run.
VardaValar1: We got a long way, getting into Phase 3 this time. We believe we see how to beat the part that we had to stop at. The stopping was because several had to leave and the group was tiring after so many runs (Helegrod, Pony, several Draigoch).
VardaValar1: We are making fine progress there and expect to report a win to you before long. :-)
galdorandwe: I am confident we will have success next week.
karakedi25: I'd like to add that we got better every time. We're learning fast.
VardaValar1: I think it very likely, especially if we can keep the same group and maybe have a full group.
VardaValar1: Get a little experience for our roles.
Glorfindel VG has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Glorfindel. :-)
Glorfindel VG: Aiya :-)
galdorandwe: I apologize for leaving when I did, We were all feeling pretty good when Phase 3 came upon us and fried everyone in the tunnels, but I really needed to spend time with the family :-) I had been on for 6 hours :-)
AriehnV: There is a sign for Helegrod Drakewing.
AriehnV: Sign- up even
VardaValar1: Aye, you weren't the only one needing to leave. Don't feel bad about it. Galdor did a great job of keeping the downstairs group together and on track. :-)
karakedi25: agfreed
karakedi25: *agreed
VardaValar1: That's all of my report. If anyone has anything to add, feel free.
AriehnV: We did Spiders and Giants Varda :-) , not spiders and drakes.
VardaValar1: Irmo has been doing an amazing job tanking the whole time
VardaValar1: Really? Rats, Fainan would have loved to have been in on that. :-) Thanks, I'll correct that right now.
VardaValar1: Drakes are usually considered easier than the Giants, so it should be a good Saturday run on the drakes.
AriehnV: didnt manage the hatchlings .. we were sevedn short at the end for the challenge thing so we have to do it again at some point. I am sure there is space for you then
VardaValar1: We'll see. Main thing is to let everyone get to try it that hasn't been there before. I used to run those a lot - although they've changed quite a bit since then.
VardaValar1: Eonwe, your floor. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news before we move to Tolkien?
ArPharazonV: Not much worth mentioning.
Eonwe Valar: This would also be a good time to whisper Tolkien topics.

VardaValar1: SW:TOR
Iryenth has left the room.
VardaValar1: Sauron has reached end game in the Republic and is probably going to work up his main on the Empire side next before doing a lot on his other characters.
VardaValar1: He also has a new sound card and should be able to handle Ventrilo now. :-) The sound is incredibly better.
AriehnV: cant find him anywhere
VardaValar1: He's not home right now.
Iryenth has entered the room.
AriehnV: neither republic nor empire ..

VardaValar1: Welcome back, Gilraen. :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiyata :-)
AriehnV: aiyata
AriehnV: not much to add on LotrO, but my Burglar has reached lvl 53 and got her first legendary weapon.
AriehnV: but thats it :-)
VardaValar1: Grats :-)
ArPharazonV: Legendary, eh?
VardaValar1: The first tends to have the best legendary traits on it for a long time. : )
ArPharazonV: Our raidcommunity leader just got the legendary staff of Tarecgosa yesterday in WoW, we were all quite glad to witness the event :-) Mine's in the works too, but will take ages, since most of us in the group are doing it.
Glorfindel VG has left the room.
ArPharazonV: How's that for legendary? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: "Lengendary" has different significance in LotRO than WoW. In LotRO, it means "Item that you can level up that has bonuses to skills"
ArPharazonV: Ah.
Eonwe Valar: *Legendary
ArPharazonV: Are they hard to get, then?
Eonwe Valar: The better ones are, yes.
AriehnV: there is the first one which you get in the prologue to Book II
Eonwe Valar: Plus what boni they have is randomized, so it takes a bit of luck, and/or a bit of work, to get the boni you want.
AriehnV: thats quite easy but the other ones i imagine are a lot harder to get
ArPharazonV: Ah, you can get the same one (with a different bonus) several times?
VardaValar1: Now you can put the ones you want on the weapon by taking them off of other LI's that you level at least to 31.
Eonwe Valar: Same type, i.e., a Champion sword of the First Age, yes.
VardaValar1: You can take one leg only but can get a nice custom item that way.
Eonwe Valar: First Age obviously better than Third Age.
AriehnV: you seem to be able to level the items up which happens by using them , and if they reach a certain level you can get different bonus things
AriehnV: at an npc
ArPharazonV: ah
VardaValar1: You also raise the tiers on each desired leg up to tier 6.
VardaValar1: Add gems, runes, settings, and crafted relics.
Eonwe Valar: SO yeah, alot of work to make these "legendaries" the best they can be, hehe.
AriehnV: it sounds a bit complicated to explain but i guess its more or less sraight forward
VardaValar1: Those are leveled up too
VardaValar1: It's slow enough that it's easy enough to see what you're doing.
VardaValar1: What makes a weapon extra special is the Age and how many Majors it develops.
ArPharazonV: Sounds pretty good, you can really customize them :-)
karakedi25: Majors are the more important legacies for each class.
Eonwe Valar: Any, that's the short version. You probably have as much of an idea as you can stand, hehe.
ArPharazonV: The idea of levelling a weapon sounds interesting. Wish we had that in WoW.
VardaValar1: commmme to the LotRO siiiiide....
ArPharazonV: Hah. Nice try.
Eonwe Valar: Last call for gaming and for Tolkien Topics.
AriehnV: "Agi! Agi! .. The Ring ! The Ring!"
VardaValar1: BroodWar is being played right now by Fangorn, but he will be coming into WoW for our run. :-)
ArPharazonV: Caught Arien in WoW, by the way :-)
ArPharazonV: Showed her where the Uldum mailbox was, and she found some more boxes for me to deliver to Ravenholdt :-)
AriehnV: :-)
VardaValar1: :-)

Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
Eonwe Valar: No one suggested a Tolkien topic, so maybe we should discuss Balrog wings, hehe.
VardaValar1: (forgot to mention that in LotRO people are getting ready for Update 6. Trait cap will be going up.)
VardaValar1: Fried? With batter?
ArPharazonV: What would wings of smoke and shadow even taste like?
Eonwe Valar: smoked wings?
VardaValar1: A creature of shadow and fire that can wield a sword and whip.
AriehnV: hmm lets discuss creatures of shadow then f:-) and where they were they were employed most
AriehnV: well i should say used
AriehnV: and by who
AriehnV: like .. crebain by Saruman for spying and scouting
ArPharazonV: Crebain were just birds, weren't they? Not exactly creatures of shadow.
VardaValar1: That's a different meanting of shadow
ArPharazonV: As in, they block the sun if they're above you?
AriehnV: who would want to block me out :o?
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Morgoth and Sauron sure tried.
VardaValar1: The balrogs changed a lot over the course of time as JRRT worked out his stories.
AriehnV: well maybe a bad example with the crebain but you maybe understand what i mean
ArPharazonV: In number, mostly, Varda :-)
VardaValar1: But it appears that they did attack Tilion, back when they could fly.
VardaValar1: Also in strength.
ArPharazonV: Reduced in number to make up for the increase in strength.
VardaValar1: Like the other evil beings, all lost their ability to fly. Even Morgoth and Sauron.
VardaValar1: Aye, makes sense.
ArPharazonV: They had to be a bit more special, powerful, etc.
VardaValar1: Down from a great many attacking Gondolin, riding in numbers on the backs of mechanical dragons, to seven very powerful beings.
VardaValar1: Maiar should be special, not just big orc minions. :-)
AriehnV: And they were mostly used as Elite forces in battles or to face strong adversaries?
ArPharazonV: Elite forces, maybe, but I don't recall many of them working together in their "rare" stages. Most seemed to fight and die alone, though the major battles may have used several or all of them.
ArPharazonV: Perhaps Morgoth thought they were better used in several places at once.
VardaValar1: Aye, in the later version, they seemed to be solo. But that might be because of the general scattering after the loss of Morgoth and Sauron to lead them.
AriehnV: we know that Gandalf faced one Balrog in Moria
VardaValar1: Aye, Arien
AriehnV: was there any other solo Balrog who faced a mighty adversary?
ArPharazonV: Glorfindel fought a balrog.
VardaValar1: Gothmog, was it?
ArPharazonV: Gothmog faced.. Ecthelion?
Eonwe Valar: There were several Balrogs who fought Fëanor, and there were a few around fighting Fingon.
ArPharazonV: I also recall Gothmog working with another balrog during battle, to defeat Fingon.
VardaValar1: Ecthelion wouldn't really be in a class with another Maia, heh.
VardaValar1: Aye, that was when they were not yet so powerful. Still really bad news!
ArPharazonV: And there were balrogs in the force meeting Maedhros for "negotiations", which ended with him hanging from the mountainside.
VardaValar1: I'd like to have seen more stories with the final version of the Balrogs.
VardaValar1: ouch
ArPharazonV: It was amended to "and they were balrogs" to "and there were balrogs", indicating that even in the later versions, where they were rarer, they were still part of that force
ArPharazonV: *amended from
ArPharazonV: Why do I remember these details? ;-)
AriehnV: i am glad someone does :-)
ArPharazonV: Still, rarer or not, there were several notable plotpoints featuring solo balrogs in the stories of the Silmarillion. I'd think that even when there were only 7, those plotelements were still kept.
VardaValar1: Aye, surely at least in some form. Since Legolas and Gimli both dropped their weapons when they saw the balrog, and Gandalf said it was a foe beyond them.
ArPharazonV: So while it was obviously no longer true that Turgon's elite fighters slew them by the dozens in Gondolin, I would think that the stories of Glorfindel and the Balrog, or Ecthelion and Gothmog, or Fingon's death, were still correct in the later versions.
ArPharazonV: And it's possible that the balrog in Moria (quite in his element, even) had grown rather stronger during all that time in the depths of the earth.
ArPharazonV: A good diet, perhaps? ;-)
AriehnV: ah thats why Galadriel gave Legolas a new bow
Eonwe Valar: Consider he hand't been squandering his power in a mad bid to dominate others.
Eonwe Valar: *hadn't
VardaValar1: Glorfindel's story seems to have been kept, aye.
VardaValar1: That bow was handy in shooting down a winged nazgul's steed, forcing him to return and get a new mount. :-)
VardaValar1: Otherwise they'd have had a nazgul on top of them right at the time of the break-up. Might've spotted Frodo and Sam.
ArPharazonV: "*grumble* Second mount I lost in a few months. The boss won't be pleased."
VardaValar1: hehehe
VardaValar1: and it was a shot in the dark. That came from back in the Sil when the earlier Legolas version was night-sighted.
AriehnV: nice one
AriehnV: was anyway very uselful and well done indeed
VardaValar1: So should we assume there were more Balrogs left hidden around, besides the one in Moria?
Eonwe Valar: Would make sense for a people meant to awaken under starlight to have better nightsight than a people meant to awaken under sunlight.
Eonwe Valar: I think several spotos in the latter half of HoME imply the Balrog of Moria was the last one.
ArPharazonV: Could be, Varda. Even including any mentioned "solo" balrog deaths, there'd still be 5 remaining. Probably some were slain in the War of Wrath, but it's possible more than one escaped.
ArPharazonV: Well, or Eonwe just proved me wrong.
Eonwe Valar: Perhaps outright state. So Tolkien probably wasn't planning for another to randomly appear at least.
Eonwe Valar: *stated
ArPharazonV: Don't expect to see one in LotRO?
VardaValar1: We did see one in LotRO in the Rift. :-) Very impressive!
VardaValar1: Not hordes of them either.
ArPharazonV: Oh? The one in Moria, or some temporal disturbance?
Eonwe Valar: The Balrog was supposed to be a holdover of the First Age in a world moving towards the dominion of man. Wouldn't do for a Balrog to awaken to a world that couldn't fight it.
VardaValar1: One of the other seven
VardaValar1: Aye to that
VardaValar1: This one was a prisoner but about to be released if we didn't stop it.
AriehnV: The Rift ah yes l. an interesting area full of elite masters ^^, but i managed to flee and sneek through most of it or around it hehe
AriehnV: all right carry on :-)
AriehnV: we also have spiders as powerful evil creatures
VardaValar1: The Balrog were different because they were Maiar. But apparently not as smart as some others. :-)
AriehnV: but i dont know whether you can call them servants of sauron or Morgoth since they have to been mostly on their own or their own interests
AriehnV: I know that Ungoliant sided with Morgoth at the assault on Valinor but only as he tempted her to get the light of the trees
ArPharazonV: Oh! Side-mention, Tolkien-subject.
ArPharazonV: new Hobbit production video, for those interested :-)
VardaValar1: The Balrog were definitely seduced to the side of Morgoth. Sauron probably knew how to manipulate them. If nothing else, like Smaug's being conveniently located.
VardaValar1: Thanks Phar :-)
ArPharazonV: This one's all about shooting at all the different locations and landscapes. NZ sure is a beautiful place!
ArPharazonV: Allright, carry on :-)
ArPharazonV: Ungoliant was some sort of Maia too, I believe? Came from Outside, anyway.
VardaValar1: Sounds great, Phar, definitely going to check that out.
VardaValar1: There was argument about Ungoliant, but she was definitely not a normal spider. :-)
Eonwe Valar: The Eldar aren't sure what she is but believe she was an Ainu of some sort.
VardaValar1: From what I ready, she seemed to be a Maia. We've heard arguments against that here in our chats. Some pretty good.
Eonwe Valar: "The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lie about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë.
VardaValar1: *read
Eonwe Valar: , and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service.
VardaValar1: We know he corrupted quite a few Maiar to his service.
Eonwe Valar: But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness;..."
VardaValar1: One wonders if she had stuck with Manwe as master, if she would have had any emptiness problem.
Eonwe Valar: In a ravine she lived, and took shape as a spider of monstrous form, weaving her black webs in a cleft of the mountains. There she sucked up all light that she could find, and spun it forth again in dark nets of strangling gloom, until no light more could come to her abode; and she was famished."
ArPharazonV: If she'd stuck with Manwe, how would her problem be solved? Would Varda be able to feed her or something?
VardaValar1: She would not have been corrupted, and would have done her true purpose.
ArPharazonV: One that does not include starving for light?
VardaValar1: Most probably. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Ultimately her greed was self-destructive, as her light -> unlight transformation shows. As she fed she gave off the very darkness that prevented her from sustaining herself properly.
VardaValar1: She was still the mother of many great spiders, but they were corrupt too. Shelob was one.
VardaValar1: Maybe we could have had more likable, helpful powerful spiders instead, and they wouldn't have such a bad rep.
VardaValar1: Great webs stopping orcs from entering the land of the free peoples. :-)
AriehnV: I wonder what her "uncorrupted purpose " would have been
AriehnV: yes that might have been one "job"
AriehnV: protecting the free peoples by barring ways for the orcs
Eonwe Valar: That would assume orcs were part of the plan in the first place.
Eonwe Valar: Or that she was part of one of the Ainur's music in response to Melkor's Discord.
AriehnV: hmmm Eru just sat and listened to what the Ainu produced in their great music
AriehnV: unless Ungoliant was part of Melkors discord from the start
Eonwe Valar: A spider as big as Ungoliant probably was would be feeding on dinosaurs of some sort.
AriehnV: och thats why they died out! i should have guessed#
Eonwe Valar: Not necessarily the big ones, just the ones larger than the average animal,.. say oliphaunt or larger.
AriehnV: right then
AriehnV: balrogs, spiders .. what else do we have? are there any evil giants?
Eonwe Valar: Mentioned in the Hobbit, I believe.
AriehnV: i believe they are at least hinted at in LotR in Book two as well at the company's attempt to cross Caradhras
ArPharazonV: Ah yes, the mountain giants throwing rocks.
AriehnV: okay .. Balroggs, Spiders, Giants, and .. Dragons (well not again)
AriehnV: but they were there definitely creatures of evil used by Morgoth in any case , but actually were they wreaking their havoc in Morgoths service or just because?
ArPharazonV: The giants were not mentioned in the Silmarillion, I believe, so we don't know in whose service they were, if any.
ArPharazonV: Spiders were probably working independently, since Ungoliant and Morgoth weren't the best of friends at that point. Maybe Morgoth planted them where they were on purpose, but they probably just settled there on their own. Shelob did not actually seem to be working for Sauron, as much as just conveniently being there to make sure nobody got through the tunnel. Even the orcs didn't like her, either.
AriehnV: He called her "his" cat
AriehnV: something like that if i recall right
AriehnV: a kind of collaboration or symbioses and convenient as you say
ArPharazonV: Balrogs were clearly in the service of Morgoth, as they came to rescue him from Ungoliant though they could've let him get killed. Whether they were just close allies or actual completely loyal servants, I don't know; but they weren't really seen anywhere outside of Morgoth's main assaults on Beleriand.
ArPharazonV: The one who got away to Moria probably only ran for it when Morgoth was already clearly losing and his forces were scattered all over the place.
AriehnV: ok then we can conclude : the balrogs are the only overpowered creatures (being Maiar) definitely in Morgoths service
ArPharazonV: Dragons, now.. seem rather more intelligent and independent. Morgoth did breed them and use them around, but they were pretty much left to their own when not needed, and Glaurung did most of his battles out of his own initiative, I think.
ArPharazonV: And of course after Morgoth's defeat they were apparently quick to hide in the isolated mountains, continuing to multiply and becoming quite.. neutral evil, to use a D&D term.
AriehnV: the other creatures mentioned "just" being used or allowed their own foul purposes as long as they helped Sauron and Morgoth
Eonwe Valar: "For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts."
AriehnV: Imagine what would have happened if he had managed to corrupt Arien after she was accepted as the sunboat's stearer (shudder)
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heh, and I banged the gavel just in time it seems.
ArPharazonV: I didn't see you bang the gavel.
AriehnV: i didnt see either
ArPharazonV: AriehnV: Imagine what would have happened if he had managed to corrupt Arien after she was accepted as the sunboat's stearer (shudder)Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Great.
Eonwe Valar: Eonwe Valar (5:51:54 PM): It's 9 minutes till the hour, so I'm going to bang the gavel here. Feel free to continue into Aftermeeting if you wish. Eonwe Valar (5:52:27 PM): *bangs gavel*
Eonwe Valar: Consider that the banging of the gavel then, hehe.
ArPharazonV: hehe
AriehnV: hehe that must have come right in your disconnect
AriehnV: but accepted :-)
AriehnV: good luck with your wow run
AriehnV: Namarie all then :-) bed time for me for an early get up
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien.
AriehnV has left the room.
galdorandwe: usual, I missed all the Tolkien fun while we had dinner.
ArPharazonV: Well, if you've got more to add, go for it :-)
galdorandwe: Namarie all.
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
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karakedi25: namarie
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ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript