Valar Guild

June 24, 2012 Sunday Meeting

5pm EDT (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

Back to News
Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (7)
     Arien, Ar-Pharazon, Eonwë (presiding), Fladrif, Glorfindel, Indis, Pallando.

Meeting begins
    EVE Online
    Diablo 3
    Flashgames, MLP (url included) 
    RP quick comments.
    Topic from Eonwe-(Valar): What do we know about the lands between Imladris and Angmar: topography, vegetation, population, history, etc.?
    RP quick comment
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Glorfindel VG has entered the room.
fladrifv has entered the room.
fladrifv: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Didn't spot Varda or Eonwe or Arien though.
karakedi25 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Will take a look at my email, Varda usually mails me when something comes up for all.
ArPharazonV: nope, nothing there
ArPharazonV: I did get the time right? no daylight saving thing going on here/
ArPharazonV: ?
karakedi25: you did
ArPharazonV: Ah, there's Eonwe.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
karakedi25: hi
Eonwe Valar: Give me a moment and we'll begin.
Eonwe Valar: OK.

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: Varda's out of town for most of the weekend.
Eonwe Valar: Any other Member news?
karakedi25: Indis has returned from a splendid trip to England, in which she had the opportunity to have dinner in the 'Bird and Baby,' as well as other Tolkien pilgirimages in Oxford.
Eonwe Valar: Cool and welcome home :}
karakedi25: Thanks---came back with lots of pictures, and plenty of jet lag :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}

Eonwe Valar: Web:
Eonwe Valar: Nothing to report for the moment.

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: WoW: Midsumm
Eonwe Valar: **Midsummer Fire Festival going.
AriehnV has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Easy guild experience running the Frost Lord Ahune fight 7 times a week ,hehe.
ArPharazonV: And from all the bonfire quests.
AriehnV: Aiya all
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya Arien :}
AriehnV: Aiya even
AriehnV: I ve got some minor game news from outside WoW or LotrO
AriehnV: how far are we?
Eonwe Valar: No runs to report on Lothar this week. A few of us on during the week, but I missed Friday, and not enough last Sunday. Although, I got my Tailor/Leatherowkrer into Cataclysm stuff finally.
Eonwe Valar: WoW report :}
AriehnV: :-)

Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
karakedi25: want me to say something?
Eonwe Valar: Monday 8pm Eastern run time: Storm on Methedras, completing T1 and T2 for deeds, marks, and medallions: Melkor (champion Melcor) and Varda (minstrel Tinwetari) Storm on Methedras, completing T1: Eonwe (champion Auros), Melkor (champion Melcor) and Varda (minstrel Tinwetari). The Battle in the Tower, completing T1: Eonwe (champion Auros), Melkor (champion Melcor) and Varda (minstrel Tinwetari). Other fun going on: Tulkas (hunter Astald) continued the Tower of Orthanc wings as promised to the group he was running with last Saturday. Pippin (champion Avengelina) completed Saruman with the group he's been running with every other Monday. Indis also ran with a group, possibly in the Foundry.
Eonwe Valar: I was just going to copy/paste from the news, but if you have anything to add afterward, sure.
Eonwe Valar: Wednesday 8pm Eastern run. Fornost level 75 runs starting from level 3, answering our friend Mosby's call: Valarites: Melkor (champion Melcor), Pippin (champion Avengelina), and Varda (hunter Fainan). Palantiri: minstrel Jadeana, burglar Mosby, and lore-master Pinkfae.
karakedi25: You probably all know that the Rohan expansion has been announced and is available for pre-order. East Rohan, that is, though it looks to be very, very expansive.
ArPharazonV: how fitting for an expansion
AriehnV: hehe
karakedi25: For those that buy the most expensive preorder pack, in addition to some not too bad fluff, there are some horse-related quests that are rather fun, one of which yields a mount skill that will be available when Rohan comes out.
karakedi25: I used that word on purpose :-P
Eonwe Valar: To me, $70 is a bit much for something I'm not getting any physical assets with. I'm not even convinced of pre-ordering the basic version yet. If I do either, it'll probably be at the last minute.
AriehnV: oh well i just hit level 71 on Friday hehe
AriehnV: so i am not bothered with Rohan yet
Eonwe Valar: :}
ArPharazonV: so how many expansions have there been?
ArPharazonV: so far?
Eonwe Valar: 3
Eonwe Valar: Mines of Moria, Siege of Mirkwood, and Rise of Isengard. Riders of ROhan will be 4.
Eonwe Valar: So they manage to remain tied with WoW in number of expansions, hehe.
ArPharazonV: Hmm, about equal with WoW then. I thought LotRO was putting them out more frequently.
ArPharazonV: But then again, it's slightly newer.
Eonwe Valar: It's happening more frequently with the last couple. I think there's been about a year difference.
karakedi25: If you consider that they are including 2K
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, if there's no more for LotRO...\
AriehnV: I wonder whether blizz is getting out MoP before Rohan
karakedi25: 2K tp,which makes it more like$50
AriehnV: can I throw in my bit?
Eonwe Valar: I don't think so, at this point, Arien. Around the same time, maybe, but even after they finalyl give us the pre-expansion patch it'll probably be a couple of months after that before launch.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, go ahead, Arien.
AriehnV: \;/
AriehnV: ah well

AriehnV: Ok i ve met finnally Pallando in Eve online :-)
Eonwe Valar: Cool :}
AriehnV: and chatted a wee bitr
AriehnV: seems he is very busy these days and usually either is out working or too tired when our meetings take place
AriehnV: he knows he 's been neglecting us a tad bit but things didnt quite with his timing as good as they could have
AriehnV: He is saying hallo though and still wants to be considered a valarite
AriehnV: thats it :-)
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar: Glad to hear he's still around and wants to still be a member :}
ArPharazonV: give him our greetings if you see again!
ArPharazonV: *see him

Eonwe Valar: In Diablo 3 news, the 1.03 patch came out this past week.
Eonwe Valar: *1.0.3, that is.
AriehnV: In fact i just poked him .. he hopes he can get his aim to work
Eonwe Valar: :}
ArPharazonV: yes, with some bugged things for achievements put in, like the missing Lyceum dungeon and a book in act 1
Eonwe Valar: Any other Gaming News before we move into Tolkien? Now would also be the time to whisper me topics.
ArPharazonV: so I'm almost done with completing all achievements for act 1 normal ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}

ArPharazonV: well, other than Diablo, a few flashgames, nothing really worth mentioning.. but I will say that the first of the MLP games that I've been tracking is coming out with its first chapter either next week or the week after.
ArPharazonV: This one's an MMO but with what looks like top-view gameplay and a bit of Final Fantasy-style combat, so people might be interested in trying it out
ArPharazonV: there's also an offline, singleplayer mode; it's the first chapter of this that's coming out next week
ArPharazonV: if you want to try it when it comes, I'll probably report on it next week if I get to play it before then.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Phar :}
ArPharazonV: Np, sorry if I'm sounding a bit too excited about all these games, guess I can be a bit obsessive when it comes to this fandom.
Eonwe Valar: It's interesting to hear about other games :}
ArPharazonV: but hey, it's a game with multiplayer potential, so no harm in spreading it around
ArPharazonV: anyway, that's all I had to say
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}

Eonwe Valar: Was justtrying to see if I could invite Pallando in, but apparently I can't.
ArPharazonV: want me to try?
Eonwe Valar: One sec.
Eonwe Valar: He's trying to get in on his own right now.
Eonwe Valar: In the meantime, we can move into Tolkien.

Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
Eonwe Valar: Varda's not here at the moment, but I'll risk asking anyway: Do we need to discuss anything about the RP? The discussion can always go into the discussion thread for access outside of meetings.
Eonwe Valar: I guess that's a no :}
ArPharazonV: I guess.. we should start posting.
ArPharazonV: Other than that, I can't really think of anything.
Eonwe Valar: I just thought I'd make sure we weren't stuck on something in the story so far.

pallandovalar has entered the room.
pallandovalar: Aiya!
Eonwe Valar: Heya Pallando :}
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
AriehnV: Oi :-)D
AriehnV: there you are
pallandovalar: testing
AriehnV: you are herre i can read you
AriehnV: can you read us?
pallandovalar: yup
AriehnV: :-D
Eonwe Valar: Pallando's trying to adjust his display name. Any help anyone can give there?
PallandoValar: I'm presuming it's impossible through meebo.
ArPharazonV: Not happy with PallandoValar or are you seeing a different name?
AriehnV: so Eonwe, should I write the healer's visit to Frali|?
PallandoValar: And I don't want to download pidgin.
Eonwe Valar: I'm seeing a different name.
PallandoValar: Oh, is it just Eonwe that sees my name?
PallandoValar: Stalker.
ArPharazonV: Aha.
Eonwe Valar: Lol.
AriehnV: Your name shows in brackets as palandovalar for me
Eonwe Valar: If it's only me I guess it was because you're on my Buddy List in my big collection of Valarites :} I don't have Facebook or anything, so I know it's not that.
PallandoValar: /me shrugs
PallandoValar: I'll get a real client for next time.
Eonwe Valar: Either way, I fixed it on my end mostly by changing your name in my Buddy List settings. All I can do for my part.
Eonwe Valar: And I'll have Varda take care of it in the Meeting minutes.
PallandoValar: My real name is attached to plenty of things out there. Not worried.
Eonwe Valar: ok
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, we're in Tolkien chat if you happen to have a topic :}
Eonwe Valar: Oh, and aye, Arien, I left the healer thing open-ended so you could post something about that :}
Eonwe Valar: Just like I left the weapon thing for Indis to post about.
Eonwe Valar: OK, you all get my topic then :}

Eonwe Valar: Now would be a good time to have a map of Middle-earth out :}
ArPharazonV: will the ones in LotR do or should I fetch my atlas?
Eonwe Valar: What do we know about the lands between Imladris and Angmar: topography, vegetation, population, history, etc.
ArPharazonV: atlas it is
Eonwe Valar: With citations of where we're getting this info whenever possible.
Eonwe Valar: That way we can refer back to it when we need refreshers.
ArPharazonV: let's see, regional maps..
Eonwe Valar: I need to go afk for a moment, but I should be back long before the discussion is over. Feel free to give me alot of historical info to read :}
ArPharazonV: Weeeeeell
ArPharazonV: it looks like the atlas puts it as a severe winter/cool summer climate
ArPharazonV: It refers to frosts of Angmar with a reference to Return of the King.
AriehnV: Where?
ArPharazonV: Trying to find it in RotK. The pages don't match. But in the atlas it's the climatic map of page 183
ArPharazonV: Going through the appendix now.
ArPharazonV: "It was beginning in the of the reign of Malvegil of Arthedain that evil came to Arnor. For at that time the realm of Angmar arose in the North beyond the Ettenmoors."
ArPharazonV: Looks like Malvegil's reign began after Celebrindor's death in 1272 TA.
ArPharazonV: Appendix B confirms, Angmar rises in c. 1300
AriehnV: Right it sais that after the Submerging of Beleriand the climate the effect of the marine winds shifted farther into Eriador. It would make the Blue Mountains more humid and forested and give the Shire the climate of England
ArPharazonV: Lands on both sides of the Mountains, with evil men, Orcs, and fell creatures.
AriehnV: i quote the Atlas "Only 100 leages north, however , around the Ice Bay of Forochel, Morgoth's cold lingered and was worsened at one time by frosts of Angmar.
AriehnV: " thats in the Atlas
ArPharazonV: Yes. And the frosts of Angmar, apparently, is a reference to the Return of the King but I cannot find it.
AriehnV: Thats why the climate worsened the closer the company came closer to Mordor
AriehnV: it gets colder the further south the company comes and the trouble at crossing or trying to cross the Mountains of Eriador
AriehnV: it sais here in the Atlas, east of the Misty mountains there was no moderating marine influence
AriehnV: and Aragorn sais during the boat trip "We are far from the sea. here the world is cold until the sudden spring"
ArPharazonV: Makes sense. More continental climate then, with more severe climate extremes.
AriehnV: and the milder climate in Ithilien which is close to the sea
ArPharazonV: And more south of course.
AriehnV: and due to the relative short influence of Sauron still fertile and pleasant
AriehnV: they wouldnt have time to exploit its riches yet
ArPharazonV: Nor spread the smoke and pollution and darkness.
AriehnV: Aye
Eonwe Valar: Back and read up.
Eonwe Valar: It sounds like that reference for RotK and the colds of Angmar would be in the story of Arvedui.
ArPharazonV: I'm trying to find it in Appendix A, yes. Could write a bit of history down but I wanted the climate stuff out of the way first.
ArPharazonV: I do see here that the Snowmen of Forochel afraid of the Witch-king because could make frost or thaw at will.
AriehnV: ok Malvel seems to have started his rule in 1349 but nothing is said about his death
AriehnV: Malvegil , it sais in the line of KIngs of the Northern Dunedain
ArPharazonV: Actually, go back to the first entries of the Northern Line, and you'll see that the dates given are dates of death.
ArPharazonV: So Malvegil died in 1349.
AriehnV: right i see ^^
AriehnV: and it sais in a footnot that "after Malvegil the northern kings claimed again regency of the whole of Arnor and started their names with the Numenorian prefix Ar
AriehnV: footnote .. slap typist
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Yes. Argeleb, his son, was the first of those, and with his claim resisted by the Rhudaur, who were in league with Angmar, the war really started.
Eonwe Valar: Obviously my transcript will be missing a large chunk, heh.
ArPharazonV: ehrr, without the "the", Rhudaur is the name of the country, not necessarily its people
Eonwe Valar: Aye. The people of Rhudaur would've originally been Dunedain.
ArPharazonV: Argeleb died, Arveleg fought back with the help of Cardolan and Lindon, kept a frontier for years.
AriehnV: I think actually found your reference Phara
ArPharazonV: 1409: Angmar invades again, battle of Weathertop, Arveleg slain, palantir saved and moved to Fornost.
AriehnV: its kind of subtle and not very obvious
AriehnV: and it is actually a few hundred years after his death
AriehnV: referring to the rule of his grandson , Arveleg
AriehnV: in that time it seems that the Elven folk from Lindon and Rivendell held back the forces of Angmar and in that time the Stoors moved up the river Anduin
AriehnV: since the climate in the East became unfriendly due to the shadow of Angmar
AriehnV: and the dread of course that came out of there
ArPharazonV: This is after the death of Arveleg, actually, when his son Araphor repelled Angmar from Fornost.
AriehnV: ah ok his great - grandson then ^^
Eonwe Valar: OK, so what have we established so far, so I know where we are?
Eonwe Valar: - Climate
Eonwe Valar: - Population?
ArPharazonV: orcs, men, and fell creatures :-)
AriehnV: Population of what?
Eonwe Valar: The topic at hand :}
AriehnV: well some Elves , Hobbits and Dunedain on the side of good ^^
Eonwe Valar: The lands between IMladris and Angmar.
AriehnV: at the time of our RP?
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: I perhaps should've specified that the time period was the end of the Third Age, but I took it for granted as understood, hehe.
AriehnV: oh well we had the whole third age in view and Middlearth in general it seems :-)
Eonwe Valar: But the Appendices can still tell us alot, i.e. We know there's not going to be Dunedain left in Rhudaur, as that place had been pretty well de-peopled of that race since it was taken over by Hill-men in league with Angmar.
ArPharazonV: Well, you also asked about its history,and I suppose that knowing history gives us a few clues to the present
AriehnV: so lets narrow it down at that what you said, shall we?
ArPharazonV: as in real life :-)
Eonwe Valar: And aye, Phar.
AriehnV: lets see , the Lands between Imladris and Angmar
Eonwe Valar: The population of the area is going to be mostly Men who had in the past a league with Angmar, and various groups of Orcs. Maybe a few trolls wandering around doing nothing particularly production, if the three from the Hobbit are any indication.
Eonwe Valar: Production = productive
AriehnV: that would be the Grey Mountains, the banks of the River Longflood and Mirkwood including Rhosgobel
AriehnV: or rather the banks of the river Anduin thats more relevent to us
ArPharazonV: Ehr.. that's the other side of the Mountains, isn't it?
Eonwe Valar: Let's use the MIsty Mountains as the east border. I'm pretty sure Angmar didn't hold any land west of them and south of the Grey.
Eonwe Valar: And Rosgobel is pretty far south and east to be considered here anyway.
ArPharazonV: Appendix A claims that Angmar held lends on both sides the mountains, though which mountains isn't clear.
AriehnV: ok and the Old Forest Road as Northern Border?
ArPharazonV: Possibly the Angmar Mountains including part of the Northern Wastes, but not getting south of the Grey Mountains.
Eonwe Valar: Got a page for that Phar?
ArPharazonV: RotK, one of the first pages of the history of Arnor and Angmar.
ArPharazonV: It was in the beginning of the reign of Malvegil..
ArPharazonV: can you find it?
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, you're right. That is rather ambiguous.
ArPharazonV: the last mountains mentioned are the Misty Mountains a few paragraphs earlier
Eonwe Valar: Aye, but that seems a bit odd unless there are some safe and relatively easy-to-travel passes through them that far north.
Eonwe Valar: I think the arm of the Grey Mountains the Atlas identifies as the "MOuntains of Angmar" are the more likely candidate, but I don't get any real indication of that from that spot in Appendix A.
ArPharazonV: Indeedy.
AriehnV: its a shame there is no clear map of Angmar
ArPharazonV: With actual borders and everything?
Eonwe Valar: I consider it something of a stretch, but assuming a perspective facing northward, it could be something along the lines of "on this side and the other side of those mountains back there"
ArPharazonV: I guess we could work with that.
AriehnV: the impression i get though is that the Grey Mountains are closest to Angmar , but the Atlas indicates some hills just outside Dol Guldur
AriehnV: Rather .. Dol Guldur, which is in Angmar or isnt it? .. ach I am confused
Eonwe Valar: There *is* the possibility since orcs probably held GUnadabad at the time (don't remember exactly off the top of my head) that transport *could've* been relatively easy for Angmar's forces through the Misty Mountains, but it seems a Northward expansion into old Melkor territory would meet with fewer issues than expanding across a much taller mountain range.
Eonwe Valar: Dol Goldur is about on par latitudinally with Moria.
AriehnV: LotrO suggests that Angmar is very hilly and mountaineous indeed on its borders with large wastes and forests inbetween
ArPharazonV: Still, expanding into Mirkwood or close to it should be more profitable than the barren wastes to the North. Why would they *want* to expand that way?
AriehnV: but the books as canon dont tell us anything
Eonwe Valar: Not much anyway.
Eonwe Valar: Certain things can be ascertained by maps and the geographical formations on them, but yeah, I don't recall any text descriptions of Angmar.
AriehnV: ok i found finally something that has hand and feet in the atlas
AriehnV: seems that Angmar is the region around Mound Gundabad
AriehnV: the map shows mountains leading Eastwards (the Grey Mountains)
AriehnV: there is a ridge shoing further north leading to Forodwaith
AriehnV: and the Misty Mountains leading towards Imladris
AriehnV: so you got west of Mount Gundabad Fornost
AriehnV: Carn Dum is slightly north of both Fornost and Mount Gundabad
ArPharazonV: what atlas page is this?
AriehnV: East of Angmar with Mount Gundabad (southeast that is) is Mirkwood, on the East side
AriehnV: p. 52
AriehnV: in the chapter about the Second Age
ArPharazonV: Ah, the early third age map?
ArPharazonV: or.. do our pages not match up?
AriehnV: Early third age map aye
Eonwe Valar: OK, I guess I've found proof that Angmar does have last east of the Misty Mountains.
Eonwe Valar: Or at least evidence supporting it.
Eonwe Valar: *last = land
Eonwe Valar: Appendix A, Section II. The House of Eorl.
Eonwe Valar: "When therefore they heard of the overthrow of the Witch-king, they sought more room in the North, and drove away the remnants of the people of Angmar on the east side of the Mountains.
fladrifv has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Ooh.
ArPharazonV: So they were there at the start at least, that confirms the earlier section.
ArPharazonV: But we wouldn't find them there in our journeys. Well, if the place wasn't infested with orcs and servants of the sorcerer already ;-)
PallandoValar: ...this entire discussion makes me incredibly sad I don't have my books anymore.
Eonwe Valar: What happened to them?
Eonwe Valar: If you can stand to relive the tragedy? :}
Eonwe Valar: Either way, sounds like a good reason to grab a new set. :}
PallandoValar: They're in storage.
Eonwe Valar: Ah.
Eonwe Valar: So we've looked at Geography, climate, population, and to some extent history. Shall we be satisfied with that for now and call Aftermeeting?
Eonwe Valar: Some of you probably want some sleep :}
ArPharazonV: Well, if you want religion, I'd say most of them worship Sauron and by extension Morgoth.
ArPharazonV: Currency, anthem, national flag, major exports?
Eonwe Valar: Major Export? Frost :}
ArPharazonV: so it would seem :-)
Eonwe Valar: I would assume everyone in Middle-earth works on the gold standard, more or less.
AriehnV: whats the gold standard?
Eonwe Valar: Rought description: value set by worth in gold.
Eonwe Valar: I should probably just say that gold and other precious metals would be currency, maybe precious gems too.
AriehnV: labour
AriehnV: slavery
Eonwe Valar: X ounces gold = Y yards of silk, for example.
AriehnV: i would think metals and ores might have been quite valuable
Eonwe Valar: If they then determined that x ounces silver = 1 ounces gold, they would essentially be setting a monetary standard based on how much they value gold.
AriehnV: i see
ArPharazonV: welcome to economics
AriehnV: green talk! :-)
Eonwe Valar: Or to use a modern example, if 1 ounce of gold = $20 US, that's "the gold standard", having the gold to back up whatever currency you use.
AriehnV: I understand thanks for expaining that
Eonwe Valar: MP :}
Eonwe Valar: OK, let's call the meeting here.
Eonwe Valar: *Bangs Gavel*

Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks all for coming :}
Eonwe Valar: Meeting Attendance: Arien, Pharazon, Eonwë, Glorfindel, Indis, Pallando.
Eonwe Valar: Now I don't have to jot it down :}
ArPharazonV: I'm sure Varda'll appreciate it being on the transcript as well.
AriehnV: Yes thanks for coming Pallando
AriehnV: I hope you enjoyed it a bit
PallandoValar: I did
PallandoValar: miss this
AriehnV: I am glad you could come :-)
PallandoValar: I've been bloody busy, I'm either asleep or out, or on rare sundays where I'm not, I.. pretty much just forget. :s
ArPharazonV: so what was tonight?
ArPharazonV: a barely not forgotten? :-)
AriehnV: he forgot ;-)
AriehnV: i saw him online in Eve and poked him
Glorfindel VG has left the room.
AriehnV: hihi
Eonwe Valar: :}
PallandoValar: that's about the sum of it
ArPharazonV: Welcome back, no matter the reason :-)

AriehnV: hmm question for the rp .. i want the healer visiting Frali to be of Erestors kin , it does make sense to have a healer close to one of Elronds most trusted advisors
AriehnV: do we know of what house Erestor is?
Eonwe Valar: Not as far as I recall.
Eonwe Valar: I don't think it has to be anyone related anyway though.
Eonwe Valar: All that matters is the person has the skills to do the job required of him.
AriehnV: true
Eonwe Valar: Or her, for that matter.
AriehnV: hehe
AriehnV: I ll have a think on that :-) I try to get a post this week
Eonwe Valar: OK :}

AriehnV: Right then, bed time finally
ArPharazonV: Namarie :-)
AriehnV: Namarie :-)
AriehnV has left the room.
PallandoValar: namarie
karakedi25 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript