Valar Guild

July 29, 2012 Sunday Meeting

5pm EDT (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

Back to News
Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (6)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), fladrifv, Glorfindel VG, and VardaValar
Meeting begins
       Mists of Pandaria (later mention)
    MLP Online
    Star Trek Online
    Diamond Hollow: flashgame + urls (go down a bit for the urls)
    Ogre Battle 64
    Diablo 3
    Book and Arts Festival in Leiden. Comments and urls.
    Topic 1 from Eonwe: What two races did Tolkien say spoke "without love of words or things", and what other comments did he make about this language and those who spoke it/like it. (All the other topics came from this original.)
    Topic 2 tangent from Arien: Frodo at the Ford of Bruinen, more tangents for other doings by Frodo (still with some language comments).
    Topic 3 or 1+ from Eonwe: quote from JRRT about the way Orcs talk.
    Topic 4 from Ar-Pharazon: justifications for movie changes.
    Topic 5 from Varda: Changes that had to be made to the original story because Gandalf returned to Valinor for a time/died, and because Boromir replaced the intended Faramir in the Fellowship.
    Hobbit Movie 1: new production video came out this week, including Comicon, movie clips, and behind the scenes. Url.
    Comments on the Hobbit video continue.
    Chess tournament
    Smaug sculpture 360 degree video.
    Fladrif's cheering sounds like an alphorn. YouTube urls given of alphorns.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Glorfindel VG has entered the room.
Glorfindel VG: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
Eonwe Valar: We'll go ahead and start shortly.
Eonwe Valar: OK, let's begin.
AriehnV has entered the room.

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: And Arien sneaks in just in time :}
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: Thank you Arien for taking care of the meeting last week when Varda and I weren't here :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other Membership news?
Eonwe Valar: I assume Varda had something come up, or she's hard at work on something, or she'd be here :} [Note: What Varda's been doing.]
AriehnV: Aiya Eonwe
AriehnV: and Phara and Glorfindel :-)
Glorfindel VG: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
Eonwe Valar: Glad to see you all here :}
AriehnV: :-)
Eonwe Valar: If there's no other Membership news...

Eonwe Valar: Web:
Eonwe Valar: Nothing to report at the moment. GSMU still a month away :}

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: Mists of Pandaria, September 25th :}
AriehnV: P day has been announced :-D
Eonwe Valar: P Day, hehehe.
ArPharazonV: Yep! Got a Collector's Edition pre-ordered now, hopefully it works out well.
AriehnV: grin, same here
Glorfindel VG: Who plans to make a Panda ?
AriehnV: me me me me me
Glorfindel VG: :-)
ArPharazonV: I'm going to do what probably 80% of players is going to do.
Glorfindel VG: me too, i think
ArPharazonV: Make a panda monk.
Eonwe Valar: 20 days after Riders of Rohan comes out :}
Eonwe Valar: I'll make a Pandaren monk, after I get Auros to 90 and decked out.
AriehnV: nice one yeah , i probably should do that with Merrla who is my best geared character
Eonwe Valar: By then the initial rush of Pandaren ought to be past.
ArPharazonV: Tradition for me in the previous expansions was to, when new classes came, start with the new class up to the end of the starting zone, and then go level my main.
AriehnV: and go through the new zones and then i can focus on the wee panda
ArPharazonV: Started BC with a draenei shaman, and Wrath with a DK.
ArPharazonV: So I'll probably get my monk off the turtle before I level my druid, unless my raidgroup is really, really eager to start.
Glorfindel VG: You should have plenty of company in the new zones
ArPharazonV: Heh, I even started Cataclysm by getting my main through all the changed old lowlevel zones first.
AriehnV: :-)
Eonwe Valar: Working on Auros is always my first priority :}
ArPharazonV: I like to approach any new content from the bottom upwards ;-)

Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: The very first Farmer's Faire is going on now.
Eonwe Valar: Should run through August 13th.
Eonwe Valar: Wednesday report from Varda on the news:
Eonwe Valar: We had a mostly kin run on an actual Wednesday (along with many other runs), so here we go: Roots of Fangorn T1: Bofur (captain Aristarchus), Nob (champion Belguilos), Pippin (champion Avengelina), and Varda (hunter Fainan), with able assistance from lore-master Daerion and minstrel Ayaella.
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news?

Eonwe Valar: Starcraft Patch 1.5 shouldn't be too far away.
Eonwe Valar: *Starcraft II patch 1.5, that is.

ArPharazonV: Did a bit more MLP Online, though having the spells crash my game every time I use them is a bit of a pain. Might be my graphics card, or it might be XP, which is not perfectly compatible.
AriehnV: I have gone back to Star Trek online after Helm went on that but he is much further than I am ;-) . I am Captain T' Pau, a Vulcan Tactical Officer and my current ship is the USS Neckar
ArPharazonV: Also some flashgames, including a small series of games called Diamond Hollow. Shoot enemies, collect currency, upgrade *everything* and get a load of achievements, so just the type of gameplay that I like :-) Want a link or 2?
Eonwe Valar: Sure.
ArPharazonV: Computer's a bit slow, hang on.

Glorfindel VG: I've been playing Ogre Battle 64. Anyone ever play that?
ArPharazonV: Sounds fun, but not played it.
Eonwe Valar: My brother used to.
ArPharazonV: What is it about?
Glorfindel VG: Military strategy rpg
Glorfindel VG: with different possible endings determined by choices made in game
Glorfindel VG: its pretty cool
AriehnV: sounds old style like :-)
Eonwe Valar: Nintendo 64 if memory serves :}
Glorfindel VG: yep
ArPharazonV: Ah, console, too bad.
Glorfindel VG: hehe
AriehnV: approach npc talk to him he gives different options and depending on that the game carries on

Eonwe Valar: While Phar digs up those links, I'll quickly mention there were some hotfixes for D3 during the week.

ArPharazonV: It's my browser. It's being very slow.
AriehnV: I wonder how the Ent fared in his chess tournament .. he said he had ambitions to win it and did well
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Did anyone invite him?
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: I assume I'm back?
ArPharazonV: yes
AriehnV: sent him an invite
ArPharazonV: AriehnV: I wonder how the Ent fared in his chess tournament .. he said he had ambitions to win it and did wellEonwe Valar has left the room.ArPharazonV: Did anyone invite him?Eonwe Valar has left the room.Eonwe Valar has entered the room.Eonwe Valar: I assume I'm back?
Eonwe Valar: If he drops in he can tell us about it :}
ArPharazonV: That's one
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar: As a point of interest, I should also mention Blizzard is offering a "Digital Deluxe" version of Mists of Pandaria, the first time Blizzard has done this for any game/expansion.
ArPharazonV: and there's number two
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news? Get those Tolkien topics to the tip of your brain now :}
ArPharazonV: And yeah, I considered the Deluxe version for a few seconds, and then decided to go for the full CE anyway. I like my games to come on discs and I hope the existence of the Deluxes means the other one is less likely to sell out so fast.
ArPharazonV: Though from what I hear, there will be a lot less MoP CEs out than Cata CEs were.
Eonwe Valar: I just hope it doesn't mean they'll do away with the physical copy. I like having the fancy stuff.
ArPharazonV: Those are still for sale at some places.
ArPharazonV: Even though it's 2 years or so?
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: Best Buy annoyed me last year with the Cataclysm CE.
AriehnV: I left Eve again lol, just not quite my cup of tea - and with STO i dont spend really enough time ton the fee to be justified since its not that cheap
ArPharazonV: Managed to grab my Cataclysm CE from a lesser known company, but found out that it went bankrupt a few month ago, so had to look for the bigger chains this time.
AriehnV: STO is free to play so ;-)
ArPharazonV: *a few months
Eonwe Valar: Their employees couldn't get their story straight, and in the end I ended up ordering it from BB>com just to guarantee I had one. Because of that, I cut Best Buy out of the mix this year and went to Gamestop.
Eonwe Valar: Of course Gamestop wants $25 down on Collector's Editions now, so that's a whole other little bit of fun, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: But anyway,...

Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
Eonwe Valar: RP: Any comments, questions, anything at all?
Eonwe Valar: I shall probably post something or other about what Auros is doing now that it's the next day.

AriehnV: I ve got something non rp wise
Eonwe Valar: Go for it :}
AriehnV: I wanted to mention it last week but i forgot about it
ArPharazonV: Ah yes, if it is what I think it is, you mentioned it to me too a while ago, but I forgot it too.
AriehnV: There will be Book and Arts Festival in Leidien in September. I ve got a copy of the email what Mark Faith, the organiser, sent me
AriehnV: September Festival in Leiden- Confirmed speakers/ entertainers at our Leiden Festival so far- Rodney Matthews, Roger Dean, Tim Kirk, Joe Gilronan, Peter Kenny, Harm Renee Vink, Henk Brassien. There are more, but we await final confirmation. This marks one of the first times Roger Dean has made an appearance in the Netherlands. If you would like to speak or entertain fellow Tolkien and fantasy art fans, please contact us. Please RSVP here so we can plan numbers-
AriehnV: They ve got a new website as well
fladrifv has entered the room.
fladrifv has left the room.
fladrifv has left the room.
AriehnV: Commemorating the 75th Anniversary of The HobbitFestival in the Shirea celebration of The Hobbit with original art exhibition, bookfair, talks and musicThursday 20th - Saturday 22nd September 2012at Hartbrug Church, Romanuszaal, Lange Mare, Leiden, HollandOpening hours Thursday 12 - 21.00, Friday-Sat 10 - 17.00Art exhibition featuring the work of world renowned fantasy artists, a bookfair with a large selection of books and Lord of the Rings movie merchandise, and a program of talks.Fantasy artists Rodney Matthews, Roger Dean and Tim Kirk will speaking and exhibiting. Other speakers to be announced.
AriehnV: Thats it :-) the entry from the sight
AriehnV: err site
Eonwe Valar: THanks :}
AriehnV: they ve opened an office in the states as well Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: Oh?
AriehnV: there should be information on that on the site as well
ArPharazonV: I might take a look there. Very close to home, though I don't really like events and conventions.
AriehnV: or i can ask Mark about the details and forward it next week :-)
Eonwe Valar: Pardon, was presuing the site a bit.
Eonwe Valar: *perusing
Eonwe Valar: Did you have anything else to add for this, Arien?
Eonwe Valar: I didn't see anything about an office in the US, unfortunately, but I can look over it more later.
AriehnV: i ll just mail Mark i think
AriehnV: but feel free to do the browsing as well :-D
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: OK, anyone have a Tolkien topic?
Eonwe Valar: Everyone here and paying attention, say Fastitocalon :}
ArPharazonV: Fastitocalon
Eonwe Valar: Just Phar? :}
ArPharazonV: Arien might still be going through the site?
Eonwe Valar: OK, then let's make this interesting... well, somewhat interesting.
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Varda :}
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: We're in Tolkien chat :}
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien, Pharazon, Eonwe, and Glorfindel! :-)
VardaValar1: Yay!
ArPharazonV: Looks like Fladrif is having trouble getting in.

Eonwe Valar: Here's a somewhat toughish question.
Eonwe Valar: What two races did Tolkien say spoke "without love of words or things", and what other comments did he make about this language and those who spoke it/like it.
VardaValar1: Orcs
VardaValar1: (one at least)
VardaValar1: It was monotonous, for one.
ArPharazonV: I'd guess trolls for the other race if we're talking about the same language.
VardaValar1: Full of unpleasantness, not a caring for others, not a whole lot for themselves.
VardaValar1: Phar's guess sounds good
Eonwe Valar: Orcs and trolls are both correct.
VardaValar1: Conversations about slipping out from under the big bosses and setting up banditry for themselves, probably one of the more pleasant bits of talk.
Eonwe Valar: That's not really comments on the language or those who spoke it/like it, so much as desires of a few otcs :}
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: The language reflects those who made it.
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien comments on his depiction of their language.
AriehnV: he said about orcish something about "harsh to the ears and as ugly as those who speak it"
AriehnV: or something to that effect
AriehnV: "hideous" i believe is the term being usedd
AriehnV: (- d )
Eonwe Valar: I recall something like that as well :}
VardaValar1: Lots of hard g's and k sounds.
VardaValar1: Short, blunt sentences.
Eonwe Valar: I think that was Dwarvish.
Eonwe Valar: The g and K sounds.
ArPharazonV: Dwarves, Orcs, all the same!
VardaValar1: heh
VardaValar1: True, dwarves had a lot of that.
AriehnV: kzd ..
VardaValar1: For a bit of orcish:
VardaValar1: k's and z's show up a lot from that list
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien didn't give us a "full" insight into Orcish/Trollish language, he tells us :}
VardaValar1: Might mess with our minds!
ArPharazonV: Ash nazg durbatulūk..
Eonwe Valar: Told us we could get a good enough example of it among certain people today :}
AriehnV: i thought orcish for the ring is "agi"?
Eonwe Valar: I meant more content than linguistics in that comment :}
AriehnV: thats what u hear the ringwraiths saying in the film anyway
VardaValar1: Black Speech
Eonwe Valar: Black Speech was created by Sauron.
VardaValar1: Aye, JRRT did mention that he heard far too much of it.
ArPharazonV: Sorry, I froze up there for a minute, was there anything between Eonwe Valar: Told us we could get a good enough example of it among certain people today :}AriehnV: i thought orcish for the ring is "agi"? ?
AriehnV: Agi is obviously Black Speech
VardaValar1: Sauron tried to get all his people to use the Black Speech. They didn't manage to do it too well. The orcs had their own versions and could only communicate between groups with Common!
AriehnV: not Orcish
Eonwe Valar: Between those two? Not as far as I see.
VardaValar1: Nothing between, Phar.
ArPharazonV: Allright, nevermind then.
VardaValar1: Naz - ring
Eonwe Valar: Remind me of where we have an example of "agi => ring" in Orcish?
VardaValar1: Or try the Orcish to English instead:
VardaValar1: nazg also for ring.
VardaValar1: ash nazg for one ring
VardaValar1: Ash nazg might sound a bit like agi if said fast?
Eonwe Valar: Actually, remind me of where we have "agi" as an example of Orcish :}
Eonwe Valar: Orcish isn't one of my strongest points, hehe.
AriehnV: dont think its orcish Eonwe
AriehnV: its probably Black Speech if anything
Eonwe Valar: Orcs are known to have taken whatever they could as far as words go from other languages.

AriehnV: The scene is just very impressive in my mind .. as Frodo is facing 5 of the ringwraiths and nearly overcome by the knifewound
AriehnV: he sais "By Elbereth and Luthien the fair .. you shall have neither the ring nor myself"
AriehnV: camera closes in and you hear the ringwraiths "agi! agi! - The ring! the ring!"
AriehnV: do you remember :-)?
Eonwe Valar: From the movie or the book?
AriehnV: movie
AriehnV: might be the animated version even
Eonwe Valar: I don't remember then.
VardaValar1: Just now checked the book.
AriehnV: Never mind :-) its probably wrong anyway
Eonwe Valar: I haven't seen the Ralph Bakshi version of LotR in a while, and PJ's FotR was too busy destroying Arwen's character, hehe.
VardaValar1: Frodo says that and then the Witch-king raises up his hand and strikes Frodo dumb.
AriehnV: yup
VardaValar1: The Ringwraiths say nothing, and are then washed away.
VardaValar1: Must be the Bakshi version then.
AriehnV: aye i think so
VardaValar1: Too bad PJ missed out showing that or nearly any scene where Frodo is being heroic, heh.
Eonwe Valar: To clarify, I mean I don't remember them saying "Agi! Agi!".. Although I remember "Breakfast in Isengard. Ack! Ack!" hehehe
VardaValar1: :-)
Eonwe Valar: In the Book, they did say "The Ring! The Ring" right before Frodo's "By Elbereth etc."
VardaValar1: True.
VardaValar1: Concerning evil speech, here at least the Nazgul say little and it tends to be repetitious.
VardaValar1: Come back! Come back!
VardaValar1: The Ring! The Ring!
ArPharazonV: If that was in the movie it would be on Weathertop instead of the Ford, because.. well.. the Arwen thing.
VardaValar1: Ties into what we were talking about.
ArPharazonV: But as I just don't see PJ's Frodo doing that, it was probably the animated movie.
AriehnV: oh glory :-)
Eonwe Valar: Don't make me watch Bakshi's version again,... hehehe.
AriehnV: its been a long while since i saw it , but as i say it stuck
AriehnV: carry on :-)
VardaValar1: It was a major scene. PJ missed out by not showing that. Had to give Arwen a part and took Frodo's.
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: Good one to have stick. : )
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: Aye to the major scene, that is :}
ArPharazonV: I think Glorfindel got rather disadvantaged more than Frodo by Arwen's role enlargement.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, because Glorfindel completely lost his spot, and Frodo had more opportunities to "show his quality," though all those were missed too, hehe.
VardaValar1: (Answer to side comment. Aye, we need actual articles on Druedain, Pukel men.)
Eonwe Valar: Well, maybe not *all*, don't want to go quite that far, but many.
VardaValar1: Frodo's driving away the cave troll in Moria was wiped out. But replaced by a good scene of the Fellowship actually working together in a fight.
VardaValar1: Frodo appeared to have driven off Shelob for a bit there too.
AriehnV: Frodo and Sam standing up to Faramirs men :-), Sam striding through the tower and identifying Frodo
AriehnV: aye he got a bit enthusiastic and lost his head , nearly literally, in the tunnel
VardaValar1: Frodo got a pretty good hold over Gollum for quite a while.
Eonwe Valar: The way they showed the Ring-influence over Frodo was a bit... much for lack of a better word.
VardaValar1: Frodo in the Shire inspired strong friendships.
Eonwe Valar: *in the movie.
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, we've left our original topic long behind :}
ArPharazonV: I remember seeing a commercial trailer with just scenes of Frodo falling down.
VardaValar1: Tangents are Us

Eonwe Valar: Probably not much more to say on it, than to quote the source for the question, anyway :}
VardaValar1: (Thinking "Languages" should have a separate topic spot on the front page; too many clicks to reach it.)
VardaValar1: So what was the source for the question?
Eonwe Valar: "But Orcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or things; and their language was actually more degraded and filthy than I have shown it. I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering, though models are easy to find. Much the same sort of talk can still be heard among the orc-minded; dreary and repetitive with hatred and contempt, too long removed from good to retain even verbal vigour, save in the ears of those to whom only the squalid sounds strong."
Eonwe Valar: Appendix F, Section II, "On Translation"
VardaValar1: Excellent quote. :-) I remember being tickled by that.
Eonwe Valar: Obviously the exact opposite of the kind of language we seek to use in Valar :}
VardaValar1: Aye.
VardaValar1: If for no other reason than to be in agreement with JRRT. : )

Eonwe Valar: Shall we bang the gavel, or did anyone have any more of any Tolkien to say?
ArPharazonV: Only that I've been watching a bit of Extended Edition audio commentary
ArPharazonV: it's interesting to hear the people who actually made the movie acknowledge and justify all the changes like just mentioned.
ArPharazonV: been watching it this weekend, I mean
VardaValar1: Like to mention a few, Phar?
VardaValar1: (If we didn't take them all!)
Eonwe Valar: Maybe one day when I've got nothing better on in the background, I should pop LotR in with the commentaries on.
ArPharazonV: Well, like the Arwen/Glorfindel switch, and the change of pacing from 17 years to a few months.
VardaValar1: Speeding up things to keep up movie viewer interest, excitement.
ArPharazonV: They deliberately removed Frodo's birthday from the party to make things less confusing.
Eonwe Valar: Well nothign big happens those first 16 years anyway, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: They could've just indicated the passage of time/
VardaValar1: I can see Glorfindel, since he's not in the story much. But Arwen would never have been sent out when scouting for Nazgul.
ArPharazonV: They still saw her role and performance as being within the personality of Arwen, or close enough for it to work.
VardaValar1: Frodo's birthday was when he was to come into his inheritance. They worked that out by having Bilbo leave and do the inheritance just for that. It worked ok.
VardaValar1: They wanted Arwen to use a sword at Helm's Deep for a while too. heh
ArPharazonV: They created Lurtz because of Sauron and Saruman not being very active villains; one was a flaming eye and the other just sat in his fortress.
ArPharazonV: They wanted someone who could actually oppose the Fellowship in batte.
VardaValar1: If she just happened to be out expecting Aragorn to be riding in from that direction, maybe. But she'd have to slip Elrond since Nazgul were abroad.
VardaValar1: They needed an expendable orc leader to kill, not Ugluk for instance.
ArPharazonV: Though also thought about having Merry and Pippin joining the party at the same time as Sam; instead of pulling Sam up from out the window, Gandalf would open the door and all 3 would tumble in.
VardaValar1: heh
ArPharazonV: *They
VardaValar1: Spacing it out a bit let them each become better known to us instead of as in Merry and Pippin's case seeming interchangeable.
ArPharazonV: They acknowledged that they wanted to make Aragorn's story a bit deeper, making him more reluctant to go for the throne; they also made Frodo more reluctant to take the Ring from Rivendell, while in the book Mount Doom was the destination all along.
VardaValar1: Pippin was actually a young hobbit, so young that it worred folks, especially Elrond. Merry took responsibility for him.
ArPharazonV: More inner struggles, yay!
VardaValar1: The reluctant Aragorn was a mistake, to me.
ArPharazonV: Well, Varda, they were still introduced as a pair every time in the Fellowship, in contrast to the book.
VardaValar1: Interestingly, in the book Aragorn and Boromir were going to Minas Tirith, not Mt. Doom. Gimli and Legolas weren't even intended to go the whole distance.
VardaValar1: True, Phar.
VardaValar1: So Aragorn was reluctant, but in a different way. He was eager to go handle the kingship thing and win Arwen.
VardaValar1: Having to take Gandalf's place as guide to Mordor was not a happy thing to him.
VardaValar1: Then he didn't have to, when Frodo took it out of his hands.
VardaValar1: Gimli seemed set to go to Mordor, although it wasn't required of him.
VardaValar1: Legolas... I'm not sure if he would have preferred to go with Aragorn or decided to stick with Frodo.
VardaValar1: All the hobbits planned to go.

VardaValar1: Had Gandalf remained, where do you figure the members of the Fellowship would have gone?
ArPharazonV: Had Gandalf remained, Amon Hen might have turned out differently. It depends on whether the Urukhai were successful in kidnapping any hobbits, and whether Boromir or anyone else would've died.
Eonwe Valar: I think the netire landscape would've changed.
Eonwe Valar: Not sure Boromir would've had a chance to go after Frodo with Gandalf there.
Eonwe Valar: netire = entire
VardaValar1: Aye, Boromir would likely have survived and made it to Minas Tirith.
ArPharazonV: If the confrontation between Boromir and Frodo still took place, as was pretty much inevitable since Boromir did not want the Ring to go straight to Mordor while he went to Minas Tirith (I still think he would've tried to force some confrontation)
ArPharazonV: Frodo would probably still have seperated from the rest of the group.
Eonwe Valar: Boromir disappearing to follow Frodo would've been more easily noticed, either by Gandalf or by Aragorn.
ArPharazonV: Though maybe the other hobbits would have gone with him. If Aragorn and Boromir were indeed already supposed to go to Minas Tirith, I don't think Merry and Pippin would've gone with them rather than going with Frodo.
Eonwe Valar: Gandalf at least would've gone with Frodo, whether that's good or bad.
VardaValar1: Frodo mainly decided to separate because it seemed as if the Ring was corrupting the party. I wonder if Gandalf could have prevented that enough so that Frodo felt less worried for the party?
ArPharazonV: And Gandalf too, yes.
VardaValar1: Gimli had the intention of going with Frodo.
VardaValar1: He felt to do otherwise would be faithless.
ArPharazonV: Would Frodo have let him, though? He might have feared the Ring corrupting Gimli too.
ArPharazonV: Though maybe he had more faith in dwarves if he knew his lore ;-)
Eonwe Valar: I think Gandalf's death opened the door for things to unfold as they did, and it's probably better that they did, all things considered.
VardaValar1: Good point. Dwarves mainly corrupted in their love of gold, not much else.
Eonwe Valar: If Gandalf had gone with Frodo to Mordor, there'd be no one to deal with Saruman.
Eonwe Valar: How would Theoden have been roused to action? Or the Ents?
ArPharazonV: If Gandalf had gone with Frodo to Mordor, what would Gollum's role be?
Eonwe Valar: Aragorn and BOromir *might've* been able to rouse Theoden, but not Treebeard I think, and that wouldn't be enough to take Saruman out of the war.
VardaValar1: I wonder if Gandalf would have sent Legolas to Fangorn?
VardaValar1: If all things went as originally planned, Faramir would have been in place of Boromir.
VardaValar1: Faramir, like Aragorn, had the ability to see into hearts with compassion. Might have been good with Theoden. Between them, they might have strengthened Theoden to kick Saruman out on his own?
VardaValar1: As Eru said ([paraphrased), evil doings would be turned to Eru's plan.
Eonwe Valar: I should really reread LotR soon, but as I recall they barely held at Helm's Deep. Had Saruman's army been able to retreat back to Isengard, I'm not sure there's much Theoden's forces could've done.
VardaValar1: So when things went wrong, they were worked with to come out as Eru intended, although perhaps with more misery.
VardaValar1: I wonder if Radagast and Legolas together might have been able to work with the Ents?
VardaValar1: That would still have put the huorns under Entish care at Helm's Deep, maybe earlier.
ArPharazonV: Oh, forgot to mention.
Eonwe Valar: Assuming Radagast could be found in time.
VardaValar1: I wonder if Gandalf and Frodo together could have saved Gollum?
ArPharazonV: PJ's facebook page came up with a new production video.
VardaValar1: Let Legolas do it then. : )

ArPharazonV: check if this link works
VardaValar1: Recent, Phar?
ArPharazonV: This week.
VardaValar1: ohhh, thanks Phar!
ArPharazonV: Starts with a bit of convention talk but most of it is quite good, if a bit spoilerish. A lot of sets you'll recognize from the book :-)
Eonwe Valar: Let's go ahead and bang the gavel :}
Eonwe Valar: It's fallen silent enough :}
ArPharazonV: silent gavel?
Eonwe Valar: *Raises gavel into the air*
Eonwe Valar: *Gavel comes down*
Eonwe Valar: *Bang*

Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting :}
VardaValar1: sorry, was watching the video. *dives away from the giant gavel crash*
VardaValar1: Finally, shots of the elvish folk. : )
VardaValar1: As much as I love the dwarves, Varda has a special fondness for elves. : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
AriehnV: hehe
VardaValar1: ^^
VardaValar1: lol - "I've never worked on such a hairy movie. Even I'm sporting a beard now."
fladrifv has entered the room.
fladrifv: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Hey Flad, made it in!
fladrifv: wasnt easy this time
ArPharazonV: Doorway too small for an ent?
fladrifv: I prefer the meetings in the woods
fladrifv: without a roof
VardaValar1: Yay! Fladrif!
VardaValar1: We try to make plenty of room for the Ent! Glad you could make it. : )
fladrifv: sorry for the roof though
AriehnV: i just noticed that the aiya in Sindarin sounds almost like eeeja
AriehnV: the "a* sound is hardly voiced
VardaValar1: Should be Eye-ya
AriehnV: bit of a too narrow sound from the actress who tries to say it in elvish ^^
AriehnV: should be broader then
VardaValar1: Post-production on Hobbit 1 now, and started on Hobbit 2.
fladrifv: will go to wellywood to see the film in december :-)
VardaValar1: Fantastic. : )
VardaValar1: Aiya is actually Quenya. So, hmm, Sindarin...
AriehnV: ah right lovely video again
Eonwe Valar: My computer is running a bit hot right now, so I'm going to bow out of AIM and give it one less thing to do.
Eonwe Valar: Take care all and have fun :}
AriehnV: you too Namarie :-)

VardaValar1: Smaug sculpture 360 degree:
fladrifv: namarie eonwe
VardaValar1: Namarie Eonw :-)
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
VardaValar1: e
Eonwe Valar has left the room.

AriehnV: Flad how did your tournament go?
VardaValar1: Aye! How'd our chess master do? : )
fladrifv: won another game but still going :-)
VardaValar1: *tosses shiny confettii*
fladrifv: chess grandmaster is the aim smiles
fladrifv: but its a long road ahead
VardaValar1: Go go!
fladrifv: ty for that link varda
AriehnV: cool ! :-) "lets sparks fly over the ents head" - looks pretty but cool enough not to set ent on fire
fladrifv: looks slightly worried up always a bit hesitent to fire alike things
AriehnV: beautiful sculpture that
VardaValar1: You're completely safe, Fladrif, with the Valar watching over you. : )

AriehnV: still need to head to bed - dont want to make the same mistake i did last wednesday ;-)
VardaValar1: Rest well!
VardaValar1: Thank you all so much for coming. : )
ArPharazonV: Namarie, Arien!
AriehnV: Namarie :-)
AriehnV has left the room.

VardaValar1: I can happily report that our shingles are now on, our roof is no longer sagging, and all seems to be well. : )
VardaValar1: The last shingle went up not long ago. : )
fladrifv: cheers to the good news
fladrifv: (which will probably sound like the lowest tone of an alphorn)
ArPharazonV: ..What's a shingle?
VardaValar1: It's a roof-covering.
ArPharazonV: Ah.
VardaValar1: Alp-horns are amazing. Soooo long!
fladrifv: alphorn meeting
VardaValar1: amazing! :-)
VardaValar1: Great sound
VardaValar1: Be tough to make a marching band, as one commenter says. Wheels maybe, aye.
ArPharazonV: How can you tell if all of them are actually being played, instead of like a quarter of them? ;-)
VardaValar1: Sneaky non-players!
VardaValar1: If you're actually there, it's probably obvious enough and someone can pour a soda in his horn.
fladrifv: well the alp horn is normaly used in folks musik
fladrifv: which sounds um interesting
fladrifv: everyone in shock? :-)
VardaValar1: Have to wonder what kind of lungs it takes to play that monstrosity. : )
fladrifv: actually its like a digeredoo
VardaValar1: Such a cheery sound. :-)
VardaValar1: That I've never heard of, Flad.
fladrifv: you make the sounds with your mouth
fladrifv: still want to play one once
VardaValar1: Sounds like something to put on your bucket list. : ) Go for it!
fladrifv: though not in winter, will create avalanches :-)
VardaValar1: oops
ArPharazonV: I have to wonder. If the thing stays the same width for its entire length, does the length really make that much of a difference in force needed?
VardaValar1: Ok, gang. We need to put you to bed. : )
ArPharazonV: The air should just continue to be pushed forward.
VardaValar1: Still amazing to get that fine sound out of such a thing. : )
ArPharazonV: That's true.
fladrifv: I go first for my horn flute :-)
fladrifv: Namarie all
fladrifv: my ent home is calling
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
VardaValar1: Namarie : )
ArPharazonV: Calling by horn?
VardaValar1: Woodwind : )
VardaValar1: See all of you another time. Take care!
VardaValar1 has left the room.
fladrifv has left the room.
Glorfindel VG has left the room.
ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript