Valar Guild

February 5, 2012 Sunday Meeting

5pm EDT (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

Back to News
Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (7)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar, Glorfindel VG, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, Menelvagor Valar, VardaValar1 (presiding)

Meeting begins
    SW:TOR (Star Wars: The Old Republic)
    SCBW (StarCraft/BroodWar)
    WoW (World of WarCraft)
    LotRO (Lord of the Rings Online)
    Topic 1 from Varda: What kind of magic users were around at the time of LotR?
    Topic 2 from Eonwe: Who wasn't at the Council of Elrond that could/should've been there, and why?
    Power - when the word means good or bad in Middle-earth.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Phar :-)
ArPharazonV: Transmog gear practically complete now; I'm missing 2 or 3 pieces but the pieces I've got for them are second-best. I look like a blue Qiraji now or something ;-)
VardaValar1: hehehe
ArPharazonV: []
VardaValar1: ah ok, very cool :-)
VardaValar1: You're one wild-looking guy. :-)
VardaValar1: I could copy the image and put it up if you like. :-)
ArPharazonV: haha, no need, very few people would be interested
VardaValar1: So you think! This is a gaming group.
VardaValar1: It's fun to see what you look like in-game. :-)
ArPharazonV: I'd rather you didn't. I wouldn't want my picture to be there in the center of attention, a bit awkward. Link will be fine.
VardaValar1: It would be a link to a pic. Then you could use that link if you like for a forum image or whatever
ArPharazonV: Well, allright, that'll work.
VardaValar1: Get extra duty out of it. :-)
ArPharazonV: hehe, maybe
VardaValar1: We had talk a while back of doing a montage of our characters. Maybe that would be a candidate.
ArPharazonV: Hah.
VardaValar1: ^^
VardaValar1: This quest in LotRO is Water of Life and Death. Dune reference? :-)
ArPharazonV: Could be. Not actually read Dune myself.
ArPharazonV: All I know is "the spice must flow"
VardaValar1: Might enjoy the movie then
VardaValar1: heh, there you go.
ArPharazonV: I think I've seen it once, like... 10 years ago?
VardaValar1: Dune is actually a book series
VardaValar1: Been around quite a while!
ArPharazonV: Yep, I know. But haven't read em.
VardaValar1: No worries. Just fun that we can recognize such references even from way back.
ArPharazonV: Oh yes.
VardaValar1: You have good memory in your head. ^^
ArPharazonV: If I did, I'd remember more of that movie.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Looks like just we three, hehe.
VardaValar1: o hiya :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya :}
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: Aiya all :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya Arien :}
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien :-)

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: Lothiriel-(V) is back on the internet with us after a long absence. Economic and domestic woes. And has also set up an account for her son and daughter.
VardaValar1: They have seen the movies, heard the audio books, and are welcome if they want to join as MoH's.
VardaValar1: Members of Honor
VardaValar1: Melkor, Fangorn, and I hope to meet in Arizona at Eowyn's house, so we may have a Valar meeting bigger there than here, hehe.
VardaValar1: Schlep as a guild-friend there might tip the scale anyway. : )
VardaValar1: Any other membership news?
karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis :-)
karakedi25: Why the silence?
VardaValar1: Sorry,
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: got involved in a Tolkien chat in another channel [Note: not one of ours]
VardaValar1: I asked if there was more Membership news, and no one answered.

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: No reportable web news atm

VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: Any non-LotRO, non-WoW gaming this last week?
VardaValar1: SW:TOR (Tintalle is now level 13) and BroodWar with Fangorn.
ArPharazonV: More flashgames, but not really something worth repeating here. Not a good week apparently.
VardaValar1: Sauron played a lot of SW:TOR
VardaValar1: Can't have a gold nugget every week. :-)
ArPharazonV: True.
VardaValar1: Any other gaming? Eve? Other?

VardaValar1: WoW:
VardaValar1: Eonwe, your floor. : )
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.
Eonwe Valar: First, we have 3 events going in WoW right now:
Eonwe Valar: 1.) Lunar Festival, which has another week to it.
Eonwe Valar: 2.) Darkmoon Faire, which will last for a week.
Eonwe Valar: 3.) Love is in the Air, which will be around for the next two weeks.
Eonwe Valar: There's a new mount available for the third this year, but it looks like you're going to be putting in some serious work to get it before the end.
Eonwe Valar: Guild Runs:
Eonwe Valar: Sunday:
Eonwe Valar: Attending:Members: Glorfindel, Eowyn, Bilbo, Eonwe, ElwingGuild Friends: Kaz
We cleared out Serpentshrine Cavern, getting another of us (Elwing) "The Lurker Above" achievement.
Then we fought Kael'Thas in Tempest Keep and came out victorious.
Finally, we went into Obsidian Sanctum, and Glorfindel won the Black Drake.
Eonwe Valar: Friday Run:
Eonwe Valar: Hmm did any of the Friday run get through?
VardaValar1: not yet
Eonwe Valar: OK. It popped into my dialogue box, *then* told me it was too long, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: Attending: Eonwe, Varda, Bilbo, Eowyn, Elwing
The goal tonight was to finish the Guild Cataclysm heroic dungeon achievements for the guild.
First, Varda, Bilbo, and Eonwe went into Halls of Origination. We tried for "Straw That Broke the Camel's Back" but not all of us got it. We did pick up "Faster Than the Speed of Light" though. In the process, Eonwe ended up getting "It's Over Nine Thousand!".
Eonwe Valar: Next, Eowyn and Elwing joined us for Grim Batol. We tried for "Umbrage for Umbriss" and "Don't Need to Break Eggs to Make an Omelet" but came up just short on both.
Finally we went into Zul'Gurub. Realizing this might be tough and since some of us hadn't been to Zul'Gurub since it became a 5-man heroic, we decided to focus on winning rather than getting boss achievements. We got through the dungeon with difficulty on only a couple of bosses. Along the way, we killed the minibosses, and Elwing, Bilbo, and Varda were able to pick up "Gurubashi Headhunter."
So, now we have all the Guild Cataclysm Heroic Dungeon Achievements.
Eonwe Valar: Thus concludes my report.
VardaValar1: Thank you, Eonwe :-)

VardaValar1: LotRO:
VardaValar1: Monday we completed two 6-mans: The Culling Pit, and Sammath Gul
VardaValar1: Wednesday we completed two 12-mans:
VardaValar1: Protector of Thongulhad with 10 people, a skirmish
VardaValar1: Way of Smiths with 9 people.
VardaValar1: Saturday we got together at 8am Eastern and ran Phase 1 of Draigoch. It was intended to be a training session and we were slightly undermanned. We were quite pleased at how it turned out.
VardaValar1: I just realized the News report isn't the most updated version. *cough* [Note: updated during this meeting]
VardaValar1: Later that day we ran stuff more casually including Grand Stairs completion, and several completed runs of 3-man Fangorn's Edge
VardaValar1: The Draigoch report will be undergoing corrections from Miriel later. :-)
VardaValar1: That concludes my LotRO report. Any additions or corrections?
karakedi25: Nothing of general interest
VardaValar1: Helps if it's Valar connected. : )
VardaValar1: Any other business? Comments? Suggestions?

VardaValar1: Tolkien:

VardaValar1: RP:
VardaValar1: The first posts have been made in the sequel. : )
VardaValar1: Feel free to dive in.
ArPharazonV: Hmm. Will probably write some post about joining you in your report somewhere during the week.
karakedi25: i've posted

VardaValar1: Meanwhile, the general Tolkien chat topic is what magic was used during the time of the War of the Ring. As a side note, is there any magic used that might justify the Rune-keeper in the LotRO game?
VardaValar1: We have comments from the LotRO folk on the topic that I am about to copy/paste.
VardaValar1: Tolkien topic of what kind of magic users were around at the time of LotR
karakedi25: The elves, of course
VardaValar1: Kinship] Mahariel: umm Tom?
karakedi25: Whatever magic the dwarves had in craftsmanship and stone-carving
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Mahariel: there is his wife as well Goldberry
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Mahariel: Oh an Old Willow, would that be magic... hmm
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Irmohir: Eldar, Istari, Nazgul, Tom B and Goldberry, Old Man Willow, Barrow Wights for starters:-)
karakedi25: Black Numenorean sorcerers
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Arienwyn: sure dark magic as opposed to "light " magic of the aforementioned characters
karakedi25: The powers of the Maiar and lesser spirits
VardaValar1: Kinship] Arienwyn: Tom was a bit "magic immune" in a sense, at least immune to the magic of the ring
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Mahariel: I thought we meant magical in a sence, not to do with the ring
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Arienwyn: general and the ring is included
Eonwe Valar: I recall the Dwarves' crafting abilities being compared more to science than magic in HoME.
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Irmohir: The King of the Dead
ArPharazonV: What I'm wondering is if we should count the powers of the Ainur, any Ainur, as magic. Because a lot of the "magic" being named here might be a result of those.
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Erkendan: Beorn
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Irmohir: balrog of course
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Hiurred: the talking eagles
Eonwe Valar: I wouldn't count the powers of the AInur, as used by the Ainur themselves.
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Arienwyn: i dont know whether we can count those as magic users , because this seems to be in their nature ... but their nature is magic in a way so i suppose we can take those in :-)
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Arienwyn: Beorn i think tho he counts no dount as skinchanger and someone to communicate with animals
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Irmohir: Bilbo, Frofo and Sam when wielding the ring
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Arienwyn: more illusions created by the magic of the ring
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Irmohir: and Gollum too
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Irmohir: on behalf of Riaz and Maha: the ents
VardaValar1: (They talk in Ventrilo too, so he's mentioning that for them.)
karakedi25: I suppose we think of magic as something our science--whatever it may be--can't account for. In that case, all of the above-mentioned would be considered magic by most people in Middle-earth
VardaValar1: Kinship] Irmohir: Magic users could include Denethor (Palantir)
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Hiurred: one of them daft hobbits (pippin?) used that magic ball at some point?
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Irmohir: doubtful case: Shelob
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Irmohir: did she use magic or was she just magic resistant?
karakedi25: Anything that could eat light as she did would be considered magic by most of those she encountered.
ArPharazonV: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"?
Eonwe Valar: I don't know about that. I don't think Elves would consider it "magic."
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Irmohir: black holes eat light, not magic:P
VardaValar1: Galadriel was very big on making sure what elves did would not be equated with what Sauron did. She was concerned about her own redemption.
VardaValar1: Her attitudes toward what was or was not "magic" would be colored by this.
ArPharazonV: Really, though, much of it depends on the Ainur (Valar and Maiar) and the powers they can transfer to other people and objects. The Ring, for example, could be seen as magical because of Sauron's power in it, but if you call Sauron magical, so are all Maiar and Valar.
VardaValar1: Telepathy a form of magic?
Eonwe Valar: I recall comments from either HoME or from Letters of Tolkien that the closest the Eldar came to "magic" was in the creation of the Rings of Power, and that wasn't considered a good thing.
karakedi25: Not to those for whom telepathy is natural. I'm sure elves would not have considered Osanwe-Kenta magic.
VardaValar1 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Magic and natural ability are not exclusive. There are plenty of races in fantasy settings with such an affinity for magic that doing magic simply is natural to them, and thus wouldn't be considered magic.
ArPharazonV: To them.
Eonwe Valar: I tend to define "magic" in Middle-Earth as power beyond the natural ability of the being using said power. Seems to work thus far.
karakedi25: exactly
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Accidentally closed AIM going back and forth
karakedi25: magic is in the perspective of the person talking about it
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Irmohir: all maiar and valar are magic by dafeault
ArPharazonV: So is Sam using the Elvish rope magic, or is it not magic because he had nothing to do with the manufacture of the rope, just its use?
Eonwe Valar: I wouldn't say they're magical just because they're spiritual.
ArPharazonV: Same would go for anyone wielding the One Ring, anyone using the Palantiri...
karakedi25: to Sam, ikt's magic. To the elves, it's not
Eonwe Valar: *the Ainur that is.
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Mahariel: Would Frodo's use of the vial be a use of magic? Invoking of Elbereth also? would thse be use of magic?
ArPharazonV: So magic is simply a subjective term based on the knowledge and ability of the observer?
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Irmohir: the question was magic users, not magic understanders:P
ArPharazonV: No item or action is inherently magical because it wouldn't be magical to its producer?
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya!
ArPharazonV: Aiya
karakedi25: aiya
VardaValar1: It's magical to the observer of what is being used, perhaps.
VardaValar1: Aiya
karakedi25: many phenomena depend on the perspective of the observer. I see no reason why 'magic' cannot be among them.
Eonwe Valar: Well then was does that say about Eru, who can make an entire reality poof into existence out of nowhere?
Menelvagor Valar: was = what?
karakedi25: Phar quoted Arthur C. Clarke on advanced technology. I think it's quite applicable here. What hobbits would call magic was 'technology' (pace JRRT) to the elves, for example.
Menelvagor Valar: And Yay for being early :-)
Eonwe Valar: *Aye, that should be read as "What does that say etc...
ArPharazonV: By this definition, introducing binoculars to Middle-earth would be magic, because it is beyond the understanding of any who use it there and sees beyond their own ability to see.
Menelvagor Valar: Those binoculars have long since been introduced.
Menelvagor Valar: They're called Palantirii.
ArPharazonV: Hah, I guess they're similar.
VardaValar1: The blasting powder of Saruman.
karakedi25: and they're considered magic by those who do not have access to their technology. Would Feanor have considered them magic?
Menelvagor Valar: I don't recall reading anything about that Varda...
VardaValar1: evil movie
Eonwe Valar: Saruman did have somethign that blew a hole in the walls of Helm's Deep.
ArPharazonV: Now you have me wondering. If the gunpowder was movie-only, what did Saruman use in the book to breach the wall? Or didn't he?
Menelvagor Valar: It is true, without a shadow of a doubt though, that anything one does not understand (and generally is not understood by one's communion or society) is usually perceived as wizardry or miraclery.
VardaValar1: Since he raised the point, we are forced to go look it up. Actually, Menel should look it up since he objected, hehe.
Menelvagor Valar: That is in the book, aye.
karakedi25: Saruman's forces used a blasting element of some sort to breach the walls of Helms Deep
karakedi25: in the books
Menelvagor Valar: No, I do remember Helm's Deep being breached like that in the books.
Menelvagor Valar: But I will check regardless.
VardaValar1: I am too. Other people will have to talk for a bit. :-)
ArPharazonV: Regardless of whether the "blasting element" is gunpowder or not, undoubtedly it's something that Saruman might not consider magic, but others might ;-)
karakedi25: Yes, he would certainly have considered it technology.
VardaValar1: [Kinship] Irmohir: the difference bertween magic and technology if emotionally crucial for Tolkien, there can me no mix up
VardaValar1: *be
karakedi25: na
karakedi25: n
karakedi25: sorry was trying to type in lotro
Menelvagor Valar: Ok, found the passage :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I was both correct and inccorect (in a way).
Menelvagor Valar: The book says, after a passage in which Gimli leaps down the walls because the Orcs have stealthily crept through the culvert through which the Deeping Stream runs....
karakedi25: I believe Tolkien felt that efforts to go against nature were unacceptable efforts at control. Most of them would fall under the category of magic.
Menelvagor Valar: And after said culvert hole was shored up with boulders big and small...
Menelvagor Valar: That a big book was heard, and where the culvert once was a gaping hole blasted in the wall.
karakedi25: bang?
ArPharazonV: boom
AriehnV: big boom?
Menelvagor Valar: It was called "devilry of Saruman" and the fire of Orthanc"
Menelvagor Valar: boom ^^
VardaValar1: found it, aye
ArPharazonV: Devilry, eh? That term could have so many implications.
Menelvagor Valar: Even I, who is notoriously free of typos do make typos once in a great while :-)
AriehnV: thank goodness :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I also neglect grammar once in a while, as there should be a comma after the first typos ^^
karakedi25: in itself, that's a curious term. As far as I know, there was no devil per se in the beliefs of Middle Earth. Sauron (and Morgoth) are considered the Enemy, but not precisely devils.
VardaValar1: Gimli had helped block the culvert so that it filled with water earlier.
AriehnV: *gently pats Menel on the head"
ArPharazonV: Exactly, Indis.
ArPharazonV: Weren't the Balrogs described as "demons" at some point?
Menelvagor Valar: Balrogs are technically devils, from our perceptive, the way they were described though.
VardaValar1: Aye, there are various "translations", including hobbit names.
AriehnV: dae mon .. twisted souls
Menelvagor Valar: point to Arien :-)
karakedi25: an etymology, but probably not as tolken meant it
VardaValar1: Then there was a crash and a flash of flame and smoke.
AriehnV: anyway i think we commonly demons are linked with dark magic orf firemagic. even explosions of sorts
VardaValar1: The waters of the Deeping-stream poured out hissing and foaming: they were choked no longer, a gaping hole was blasted in the wall.
AriehnV: exactly
Menelvagor Valar: Doesn't really matter, he knew well that in describing a character, one would compare that to one's own set of references. By describing those characters in exquisite detail, that set of references is much more narrowed. Even into such a way that the description of Balrogs is undeniable demon or devil like.
VardaValar1: "...they have lit the fire of Orthanc beneath our feet."
karakedi25: demonic yes, though not necessarily demons
Eonwe Valar: Well, "devil" itself comes from greek diabolos, meaning "slanderer" or "accuser", and both Morgoth and Sauron did alot of that.
karakedi25: Tolkien surely knew those eymologies, but I doubt that's what he meant when he referred to devilry.
Menelvagor Valar: Oh, I wasn't referencing Balrogs and the devilry in the assault on Helm's Deep.
karakedi25: *etymologies
Glorfindel VG has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: devilry is pretty much just anything that's used *against* and is considered "dark wizardry"
karakedi25: Menel, I think we're just talking about the meaning of the word.
karakedi25: not necessarily with reference to helm's deep
Menelvagor Valar: Well, of course, but that's why I said that. as I believe we have mixed up 2 different explanations for the word "devilry" that can be found within Tolkien's books.
karakedi25: and actually in contemporary usage it can mean something that's simply antisocial in some what and has no connection at all with magic
VardaValar1: Webster's includes of course that devilry is action performed with the help of the devil, but it is also separate as wickedness or mischief.
karakedi25: *in some way
karakedi25: I believe Tolkien was using the latter definition
Menelvagor Valar: Balrogs at some point crept up into the discussion and befuddled the matter. Such devilry! *wink wink*
VardaValar1: Aiya Glorfindel :-)
Menelvagor Valar: As do I, Indis. :-)
ArPharazonV: Those cheeky devils.
Menelvagor Valar: Says one who had the gall to assault Valinor itself :-)
ArPharazonV: I'm such a fiend!
Menelvagor Valar: a *very* short-lived assault though :-)
VardaValar1: and soggy.
ArPharazonV: Preparations took a bit longer than the assault itself.
ArPharazonV: But they generally do.
Menelvagor Valar: Finrod's host did a better job at Thangorodrim :-)
VardaValar1: The foe was less powerful.
Menelvagor Valar: True.
ArPharazonV: The Valar called in reinforcements from Eru. That's just not fair.
Menelvagor Valar: Still, he was Melkor, and a Vala ^^
karakedi25: Fair?
Menelvagor Valar: I think we may need to bury Pharzie again ^^
Menelvagor Valar: He's getting those thoughts into his head again.
VardaValar1: We have another topic to bring up, now that the last was bedeviled.
karakedi25: Sorry Phar, he was breaking Eru's ruling.

VardaValar1: Who wasn't at the Council of Elrond that could/should've been there, and why? [Note: topic requested by Eonwe at the end of the previous meeting.]
Menelvagor Valar: Hmmm... the only one that comes to mind is Radaghast.
ArPharazonV: Allright, let's start with Faramir, who was the first of the two brothers to get the dreams.
Menelvagor Valar: Or a delegate from Lake Town or Dale.
ArPharazonV: And was probably supposed to go to Rivendell instead, if his family had let him, but Boromir the late-dreamer went instead.
karakedi25: a number of the attendees might be considered accidental in a way--the council was called as a matter of convenience because they and the Ring were there at the time.
karakedi25: As far as I know, Gloin/Gimli and Legolas were not summoned for a council
Menelvagor Valar: Not entirely... though there was no summoning, it was not entirely happenstance either.
VardaValar1: Elrond said the conference was called, although it was not he that called it.
Menelvagor Valar: Both Gimli and Legolas had been sent as emissaries from their peoples with dire tidings.
karakedi25: As far as I know, Boromir was not expected, though he arrived at a providential time. The dream could have been a summons.
Eonwe Valar: TO clarify, the question last week was who *was* there. The point for this one is who *wasn't* there that could or should have been, and why weren't they there.
Menelvagor Valar: War was brewing, and all knew it. Though some happenstance is expected, most was basically a matter of circumstances.
karakedi25: someone mentioned people not being summoned, and I'm offering thoughts on why
VardaValar1: Elrond was implying that the Valar called the conference.
Eonwe Valar: So, Saruman is a glaring example of who wasn't there that rightfully would've and should've been there, had it not been for his treachery.
karakedi25: by that time, though, it was obvious that he shouldn't be there
ArPharazonV: I'd interpret the whole dreaming thing as Faramir being the one supposed to go to Rivendell, with the Valar putting dreams in his head, and when that failed after some attempts they turned to Boromir instead, since he got the dream at a later point.
ArPharazonV: Free Will of Men, and all that.
VardaValar1: Agreed, Phar
Menelvagor Valar: With so many people coming together at an opportune time with only what would happen in the future binding them together? I would say so! For the Ainur know much that will come to be in Middle-Earth
ArPharazonV: Tom Bombadil could've been there, if he cared for much of anything outside his own realm.
Menelvagor Valar: Free WIll my behind! If one can't come, we'll get another to come, and we'll repeat the process as many times as is necessary for one to actually does go. ^^
VardaValar1: No one came from Lothlorien.
Menelvagor Valar: Not entirely.
VardaValar1: hehe Menel
karakedi25: maybe they didn't need to--Elrond and Galadriel (and Celeborn?) were in mental contact
Menelvagor Valar: I believe Elrond's sons had just recently arrived from Lorien.
karakedi25: and possibly others
VardaValar1: Elrond's sons were actually from Rivendell, so I wouldn't count them as Lorien reps.
Menelvagor Valar: They might be from their mother's side.
Menelvagor Valar: They were not present at the Council though.
VardaValar1: Lorien could be said to be represented by those knowing what Lorien felt, but no person was sent from there for the Fellowship-.
Menelvagor Valar: I don't think there was mental contact.
ArPharazonV: In an earlier version Fatty Bolger came with them to Rivendell, and was sent back after the Council. Whether he ever was at the Council, I don't remember :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I do believe though that as both being Noldori, Galadriel and Elrond were of like mind in much and more.
VardaValar1: No humans except rangers and a Gondorian were mentioned as being at Rivendell, at least involved in the Ring story-line.
Menelvagor Valar: And they had been working together in the (white) council long before that.
Menelvagor Valar: They both knew what was at stake and what needed to be done to be succesful.
VardaValar1: No one from Dale.
Menelvagor Valar: Both had lived through the Last Alliance as well as the 2nd Era after all.
VardaValar1: No Bree humans.
VardaValar1: No Rohirrim.
Menelvagor Valar: I wouldn't expect anyone from Bree tbh.
ArPharazonV: No Blue Mountain dwarves :-)
VardaValar1: Heh, pardon. This was supposed to be people who one might expect to have come.
ArPharazonV: No eagles, no beornings...
Menelvagor Valar: And with Bard of Lake Town / Dale so close with Dain, I would expect they would be content with sorting their own problems while Gimli emmisaried both.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye Varda.
VardaValar1: True. They had Gloin and Gimli to tell what was happening there.
VardaValar1: That an emissary of Sauron was waiting an answer about that "least of Rings"
Menelvagor Valar: The onle ones that I could think of who might have been expected to be there would be Faramir, though that is negated by the fact that Boromir was there instead, and Radagast.
ArPharazonV: "Yeaaahhh, don't worry, this Ring we're after isn't that much of a big deal. Just a small one. Just ignore the fact that we're searching far and wide for it, it's really not that important, you know. Trivial stuff."
Menelvagor Valar: I would not think that Galadriel or Cirdan would send reps.
VardaValar1: Radagast had little interest in helping the First or Second-born. Animals and plants seemed more helpless and in need of him, in his mind perhaps.
VardaValar1: Cirdan, good thought. But he did have a rep.
ArPharazonV: Galdor, aye.
VardaValar1: Aye
Menelvagor Valar: True, yet he knew full well that with Sauron returned, all his labours were in grave peril.
Menelvagor Valar: He had lent his animals to the Council before.
VardaValar1: Good reason for him to lend his ring of fire to Gandalf.
Menelvagor Valar: Something that Saruman begrudged him from the beginning I might add.
VardaValar1: It did seem like a misfire of his mission from any side.
Menelvagor Valar: And yet Cirdan saw true that day.
VardaValar1: They were supposed to be advisors to help against Sauron. Maybe he was advising the critters that couldn't speak for themselves.
Menelvagor Valar: In that respect, Gandalf might have been the best rep Cirdan could have sent.
VardaValar1: Agreed on Cirdan
VardaValar1: So his reps were both Gandalf and Galdor? : ) Well-represented then.
Menelvagor Valar: That does remind me!
Menelvagor Valar: I do remember something about Gandalf representing any and all that could not be at the meeting.
Menelvagor Valar: As a personal rep from the Valar, I do guess that to be true :-)
VardaValar1: :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Thus, in an oversimplified answer. No one who was expected was absent.
Menelvagor Valar: Any absentees were there in the form of Gandalf :-)
VardaValar1: Some we might have expected themselves, rather than with a proxy?
ArPharazonV: So Gandalf could've been there on his own and still nobody would be missing?
Menelvagor Valar: Not really.
Menelvagor Valar: Not even Faramir.
Menelvagor Valar: Too many good reasons were given for his absence.
Menelvagor Valar: reasons that may seem stupid to us, but would be more than valid for any person living in that time and place.
Menelvagor Valar: Same goes for any other person I might think of.
Menelvagor Valar: All who had to be there at that time, were there.
VardaValar1: Does sound like all we need is Gandalf as proxy for everyone. : )
VardaValar1: Faramir's reasons were good. His lord and father forebade it, and his older brother wanted to go instead who would also be expected to be his lord later.
Menelvagor Valar: Plus, Boromir was very strong of will, and though Denethor was loath to grant his elder son leave to go, he could not refuse him.
VardaValar1: Rulers who couldn't come tended to be represented by some other person of consequence.
Menelvagor Valar: aye.
Menelvagor Valar: Tolkien was very, very thorough in that :-)
VardaValar1: Cirdan, Denethor, Thranduil, etc
VardaValar1: Aragorn might even be a Lorien rep too? : )
VardaValar1: He covers a lot of territory, even if not quite as much as Gandalf.
VardaValar1: Intended son-in-law, wearing the Elessar.
Menelvagor Valar: I think Aragorn would be more a proxy for the human realms, if not all, in a lesser capacity as Gandalf.
VardaValar1: All the humans of the north and south, pretty good collection.
VardaValar1: Misses Harad, that being on the enemy side.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye, Boromir was a rep of Gondor, Bree, Rohan and all others needed one as well... and we know that Gandalf had enough on his plate as was.
Menelvagor Valar: Not that he would not have taken on more of course :-)
Menelvagor Valar: But just as Cirdan knew how to delegate, so did Gandalf :-)
Menelvagor Valar: The Ring for example.
Menelvagor Valar: Out of necessity, he delegated that least of rings to Frodo ^^
VardaValar1: :-)
VardaValar1: Eonwe was looking up some Ring info in the Letters and may have a comment in a bit. [Note: see the beginning of After-meeting]
VardaValar1: Otherwise we seem to have pretty much exhausted the topic?
VardaValar1: or at least the speakers. : )

VardaValar1: Check out the new rp posts for the sequel, see if you want to say anything there.
Menelvagor Valar: I will!
VardaValar1: We are coming up on the time to start the WoW run, so I'm slipping out to find food first.
Menelvagor Valar: Bon appetit!
VardaValar1: But first...
VardaValar1: *whango!*

VardaValar1: After-meeting. : )
Eonwe Valar: "But at Eregion great work began - and the Elves came their nearest to falling to 'magic' and machinery. With the aid of Sauron's lore they made Rings of Power ('power' is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales, except as applied to the gods).
Eonwe Valar: The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance - this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination." (emphasis through italics or quotes are Tolkien's, any typos mine)
VardaValar1: Thanks, Eonwe! :-)
Eonwe Valar: So there we get an idea of how Tolkien himself would define 'magic.'
Eonwe Valar: Letters of Tolkien, Letter #131 for those wishing to review it themselves. To Milton Waldman.
VardaValar1: Interesting. Power is only correctly associated if it's for the Valar. An usurpation maybe? Yet the Valar see the First and Second-born as brothers, if younger ones.
VardaValar1: So perhaps such power would be for after Arda is sung aright.
VardaValar1: Bilbo is having trouble with Ventrilo not liking his using the password. Wants to ban him if he tries again.
Eonwe Valar: Well, there are other places that say that "Valar" would be better translated as "Authorities" so that that part for what you will.
VardaValar1: Good point
Eonwe Valar: Of course then there can be the discussion of rightful Power exercised through proper Authority, and the excercise of Power in opposition to proper Authority, which all traces back to Free Will, hehe.
VardaValar1: Need a few guidelines so we don't fall off the cliff, but we have free will to do even that if we insist. : )

VardaValar1: Ok, Eonwe and Bilbo are in WoW, I'll head that way.
VardaValar1: Glorfindel, coming? : )
VardaValar1: He was there before me. Go Balrog-slayer!
ArPharazonV: :-)
ArPharazonV: beat you to it then?
AriehnV: short Frali post
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: Thanks Arien :-)
VardaValar1: Namarie. WoW run going
VardaValar1 has left the room.
karakedi25: namarike
karakedi25: in Foundry in Lotro on Mereniel....
karakedi25: tough fight
AriehnV: good luck with that i am one kill of level 50 ^^
AriehnV: after that its finally bed
karakedi25: thanks, and luck to you
karakedi25: namarie,
karakedi25 has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar has left the room.
AriehnV: Namarie all and ding 50 :-)
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
AriehnV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript