April 15, 2012 Sunday Meeting
5pm EDT (GMT - 5)
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AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
Transcript work by Ar-Pharazon and Varda.
AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar, fladrifv, GwaihirValar, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, VardaValar1 (presiding)
Diablo 3 beta
WoW Mists of Pandara beta
Everyone gets to name one thing they know about their Valar Guild
character, major or very trivial. Arien, Ar-Pharazon, Fladrif, Gwaihir,
Tangent topic: Why not send Gwaihir to Mordor with the One Ring?
RP forum story plotting.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: evening :-)
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien and Ar-Pharazon :-)
AriehnV: Aiya varda :-)
AriehnV: how are you?
VardaValar1: Ok. How about you?
AriehnV: full of cold
VardaValar1: Chilly there? Or not feeling well?
AriehnV: a bit tired but else not bad
AriehnV: not feeling too well but not too bad either
AriehnV: just coughy snotty and the rest of the glories ^^
VardaValar1: Got the flower order for our aunt's funeral re-done.
Should be even nicer. No substitute for being there, but at least it's
something to show respect.
VardaValar1: It's that time of day. I'll start inviting.
VardaValar1: Thank you.
AriehnV: sorry to hear that and i am sure it will be appreciated all the same
VardaValar1: Indis must be on her phone, can't invite.
VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: The two of you have been wonderful about showing up every meeting pretty much.
fladrifv has entered the room.
VardaValar1: That's not easy to do, and I appreciate your going to the effort!
VardaValar1: Aiya Ent :-)
VardaValar1: Getting settled into the new house ok?
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Eagle :-)
VardaValar1: Any membership news?
VardaValar1: Arien has seen Helm regularly in WoW Europe, so he's still with us.
VardaValar1: I'm trying to set up who is still included in the overall guild for this year, so that helps.
VardaValar1: Background stuff going on. We do need input from guild
members to add to the Encyclopedia, especially articles. That's no
harder than what you did in school, lets you dig into Middle-earth for
fun at the same time, and you get help from me for the final product.
VardaValar1: Just email it in and let me know where the original references are such as book and chapter name.
VardaValar1: Not like writing a story or poem, just need the facts to help people out with info.
VardaValar1: Anyone play any games this last week besides WoW and LotRO?
AriehnV: played a few hours TOR on wednesday and my Jedi Sage is now lvl 41
VardaValar1: Grats :-)
ArPharazonV: Played more Rayman Origins, starting to get better at it, though I've not yet gotten far. It's a bigger game than I thought.
VardaValar1: My Jedi Sage hit 15, a bit behind. ;-)
ArPharazonV: Also some flashgames.
VardaValar1: Sounds like good news, Phar.
ArPharazonV: And I've found several more MLP games to track the progress of, including a Final Fantasy like RPG and a point-and-click adventure game ;-)
ArPharazonV: Too bad nothing's finished yet, but it's all looking quite interesting.
VardaValar1: Diablo 3 beta is out, some Valarites are in it.
VardaValar1: WoW Pandarien beta is also out, with some Valarites in it too.
ArPharazonV: Wow, we're everywhere.
VardaValar1: We are, actually. Keeping track of it is tough, but we try
to keep together so we can find buddies we can enjoy being with.
VardaValar1: Just try to make the Valar friend channel in any game, and
it helps to let Eonwe know what game, server, and character with a cc
to me. If it's secret like a beta, mention doesn't need to be made.
[note from side window: Fladrif is in the finals of the chess tournament. Go Flad!!]
VardaValar1: Noblegarden has been going on, much hunting of chocolate Easter eggs.
VardaValar1: Upgrades happening also, mostly with us running along with pugs lately.
VardaValar1: The scheduled Friday time Bilbo and I got upgrades running Dragonsoul.
ArPharazonV: Raidfinder, or self-made?
VardaValar1: Elwing has been running her Horde character in Uldaman server a lot
VardaValar1: Raidfinder mostly
VardaValar1: Some others of us have been bouncing over there a bit too, but she's the heavy hitter there.
VardaValar1: Any more WoW comments?
VardaValar1: That's our busy place, definitely, and you''re all very
welcome there. We have a few folks on at most times of day and a lot in
the afternoons or after supper.
VardaValar1: We have daily runs together and pug as well, so we've had
some interest from others in joining us. May be doing more testing soon.
AriehnV: Arienwyn is 67 now and well into Galtrev quests but stuck with
a solo instance atm and decided to return to Enedwaith and brush up my
AriehnV: and maybe gain a level or two before returning to Galtrev
VardaValar1: That helps. Best to be top level in that area for a number of things.
VardaValar1: For scheduled run news:
VardaValar1: We completed Roots of Fangorn for the Monday run.
VardaValar1: Wednesday we were happy to get Maedhros through the
pre-reqs in the Limlight Gorge so we had the chance to take him into
the Roots of Fangorn.
VardaValar1: He got the deeds for all but the last boss, so that was a lot in one evening.
VardaValar1: Saturday we had a lot of folks that couldn't make the
regular afternoon run as the big group, so we did Limlight Gorge.
VardaValar1: Then people started showing up even more and grouped up, but I had to leave and don't know what all happened. [note: report sent by Miriel is now on the News]
VardaValar1: With those very active souls, it was probably quite a bit. ^^
VardaValar1: Does anyone have anything else to add to gaming, or business they'd like to mention? Comments on anything?
VardaValar1: Jokes? Words of Wisdom? :-)
ArPharazonV: ..Drink plenty of fluids?
VardaValar1: That's a good one. : )
VardaValar1: Everyone gets to name one thing they know about their Valar Guild character! Can be major or very trivial.
VardaValar1: Starting at the top:
VardaValar1: Phar, would you like to volunteer something about the Arien character from the books?
ArPharazonV: Ehr... she was chosen to guide the fruit of Laurelin across the sky?
VardaValar1: Thanks :-)
VardaValar1: (Nice to get to know each other.)
AriehnV: hehe Arien was the a maiar of Aule i think
AriehnV: she was a fire spirit akin to Sauron at the beginning
karakedi25 has entered the room.
AriehnV: she was chosen as navigator for the boat of the sun or before that as tendant to one of the trees i think
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis : )
AriehnV: Aiya Indis
VardaValar1: Thanks Arien :-)
VardaValar1: Phar, would you like to mention a fact about your character from the books?
ArPharazonV: Allright, he invaded Middle-earth, scattered Sauron's
forces, and brought Sauron with him to Numenor, though Sauron's efforts
were likely more of a show in order to infiltrate Numenor.
karakedi25: what do you think Miriel would have said about him?
VardaValar1: Thanks Phar :-)
ArPharazonV: Considering there's a version floating out there I prefer
that had them actually in love, I'll not say anything conclusive about
VardaValar1: Indis, would you like to tell a fact about Ar-Pharazon? : )
VardaValar1: That's interesting, Phar. I need to look at that one.
ArPharazonV: Think it's somewhere in the History.
karakedi25: He got Numenor into the deepest possible water aka doodoo.
ArPharazonV: I believe she left Amandil's brother for him in that version, though I might be wrong.
VardaValar1: and into really deep water. :-) Atalante indeed.
karakedi25: Is it by tolkien?
ArPharazonV: Of course.
VardaValar1: Sorry, you missed out on the subject. We're trying to tell
at least one fact big or little about our respective characters. Kind
of a getting to know you.
VardaValar1: So far it's worked out with at least one other person adding in a comment too.
karakedi25: that's what I figured
VardaValar1: Fladrif, what would you like to tell about your character?
VardaValar1: (I'm good at calling on people when they're afk.)
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Not too difficult when it comes to Fladrif though, Varda.
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe : ) We're in Tolkien, telling a fact about our characters, or versions of the facts from the Histories.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
VardaValar1: He talks more in side windows. :-)
ArPharazonV: He does, yep.
VardaValar1: Looked like Indis might be typing something. AIM may not always be helpful with that info.
karakedi25: the problem is 2 keyboards
VardaValar1: Guess that confuses AIM. Thanks, I won't wait on it then. : )
karakedi25: confuses me more
VardaValar1: Fladrif was one of the three oldest ents. His part of the
forest had been so damaged and himself injured after Saruman went
rotten, that he retreated mostly away from the others.
VardaValar1: Gwaihir, are you there?
VardaValar1: Would you like to mention something about your character?
GwaihirValar: I was... well... a taxi
VardaValar1: lol - true
karakedi25: but a very selective one
GwaihirValar: and a free one
ArPharazonV: So why didn't you just carry Frodo and the Ring to Morder in the first place?
GwaihirValar: I wasn't very good at that ;-)
GwaihirValar: I imagine partially because I was busy, and partially because it wasn't my place
VardaValar1: and partly because of a mess of winged Nazgul around the place.
karakedi25: I'd say because it would have spoiled the story ;-)
GwaihirValar: But we Eagles didn't solve all your problems... we're not THAT nice
VardaValar1: In another way of looking at it, since they would have been very obvious they would have been for skeet practice.
ArPharazonV: Well, maybe if they'd flown high enough?
ArPharazonV: Bit harder to aim, maybe.
VardaValar1: Then they couldn't make it to the right spot for the drop.
karakedi25: and parachutes?
VardaValar1: ooops, breeze
GwaihirValar: On a less related note... if there were creatures who
could control birds... why not just hook the ring onto a hummingbird
and tell him where to go to drop it ;-)
GwaihirValar: I somehow doubt they'd be able to spot a hummingbird in full flight!
VardaValar1: They only went in after most of the baddies were wiped out, disorganized, the Nazgul and Sauron were gone.
GwaihirValar: or well not control but ocmmunicate with and get help from
karakedi25: sounds like a job for Radagast
GwaihirValar: Probably wouldn't have made much of a story... but would've been way more likely to succeed!
VardaValar1: Hawks, owls, etc. Nothing to eat for a hummingbird for instance.
VardaValar1: Saruman also controlled birds, such as crebain.
VardaValar1: If Sauron wasn't controlling something, he didn't seem to allow it to be around his home area.
VardaValar1: It's an interesting question. Why a hobbit for the delivery?
ArPharazonV: I think Gollum noticed that.
karakedi25: as it proved, that was not unwise of him
VardaValar1: Is it paranoia if they're really out to get you? ;-)
VardaValar1: He would not expect enemies to destroy the Ring, but try
for power. So he'd think anything coming in was an attack on his place
VardaValar1: And aye, Indis, as you said, he was likely right in some cases.
ArPharazonV: Which is why he never expected the prisoner from Cirith Ungol to have had the Ring on him.
karakedi25: which may account for the choice of hobbits. For the most
part, they weren't interested in power of the sort Sauron thought of
VardaValar1: An eagle would be an obvious agent of Manwe, extremely suspicious, and a high-priority target.
VardaValar1: The eagles fought the fell beasts of the air in the big battle, didn't just manage to slap them out of the sky.
karakedi25: Tolkien might have had something to say about the hardships
of the trip growing the participants enough to meet their challenges,
whereas eagles would have been a short-cut that would have obviated the
VardaValar1: Aye, Indis. Only the hobbits had no interest in power. Perfect choice.
VardaValar1: Aye to that. The whole thing was supposed to be about
helping the Free People grow enough to handle their own problems.
ArPharazonV: Well, that made it appealing for the story, yes, and it helped the Free People grow, but honestly...
VardaValar1: The Istari were sent in with power and memory cut back,
even given bodies of old men, so they would only be advisors.
ArPharazonV: if they could've done it by eagle, it was foolish not to.
Too much of a risk involved this way, too much hanging on luck. Too
easy for Middle-earth to fall, just because they wanted the free
peoples to grow in character.
ArPharazonV: Stray but a little...
VardaValar1: They knew that Sauron's empire would eventually fall on
its own, but it would be a dreadful disaster for the inhabitants for a
long time. And perhaps deserved.
karakedi25: easy, but what do you think Gwaihir et al. would have said if asked to do it?
VardaValar1: Gwaihir et aliud would have tried and died or been maimed.
karakedi25: Or refused for reasons related to Manwe and the purposes of the Valar?
VardaValar1: Depends on who asked. : )
VardaValar1: If Manwe asked, they would go bravely.
AriehnV has left the room.
karakedi25: yes, but I think he wouldn't ask
VardaValar1: He didn't until it was time, aye.
karakedi25: and there's the key. It wasn't time.
VardaValar1: Once the obstacles to their flying in had been removed,
they could go in with relative safely and extract the Ringbearers.
ArPharazonV: Time, as defined by who? Who decided when it was best to step in, risking failure by not doing it earlier?
karakedi25: Tolkien was writing more than the story of how to solve a nasty problem.
VardaValar1: They weren't magical, just smart, very large, birds. They
could not have passed the fell beasts seeing them coming, nor the power
of Sauron. They were very visible if they flew in.
VardaValar1: The right time would be defined for them by Manwe.
karakedi25: that would be my guess. We know the Valar were in more
control of events that it appeared, for example when Gandalf would say
(more than once) that something was *meant* to happen.
VardaValar1: Aye. They helped out with opportunities, visions, timing.
karakedi25: they precluded themselves from direct intervention, but
that didn't exclude indirect intervention. Who sent the dreams to
Boromir and Faramir?
ArPharazonV: So it was ultimately the Valar who decided to take the
risk. Although they might have known that it wouldn't from the start,
if they truly had so much control.
ArPharazonV: Or foresight.
AriehnV has entered the room.
karakedi25: they limited themselves to influence, not pulling the strings of marionettes
VardaValar1: It may have been that they were following Eru's theme. They did not know the end of the song, however.
AriehnV: pfft got dc
AriehnV: what did i miss?
karakedi25: deep theology
GwaihirValar: I need to go prepare dinner though, so I shall be back
later. Was nice talking to you all and being here again. :-)
ArPharazonV: Enjoy, Gwaihir
VardaValar1: Thank you for flying in!
karakedi25: enjoyed the conversation!
AriehnV: have fun Gwaihir
VardaValar1: We can back up to Eonwe for a fun fact about him or call it here at the top of the hour. Anyone want to keep going?
VardaValar1: heh, crickets chirping.
VardaValar1: *swings gavel*
VardaValar1: Ok, it was the small gavel.
VardaValar1: Free chat.
ArPharazonV: Oh, would've been fine with going on, but apparently that's not shared :-)
karakedi25: sounds as though I need to make a few changes in my posts based on Eonwe's analysis of the RP so far.
VardaValar1: Now he says something. : )
ArPharazonV: Got any facts about Indis, then?
karakedi25: read his post about the RP
Eonwe Valar: I made a post to the discussion thread, trying to piece
together facts and discussion about the orc sword we're dealing with.
VardaValar1: Egad. That's a seriously major post.
karakedi25: she was Galadriel's grandma
VardaValar1: That post should be handy for us all, Eonwe.
ArPharazonV: Oh my.
ArPharazonV: Must've been posted at some point today.
Eonwe Valar: I tried to pick the important stuff out of the meeting
minutes where discussion was involved (that wouldn't be repeating
something) but I probably didn't do the discussions themselves justice.
ArPharazonV: Hah. Firth.
Eonwe Valar: As far as the size of the post gos, I still had some 48k-ish characters to use when I was done :}
ArPharazonV: Has it been a year already?
Eonwe Valar: Roughly, yes.
VardaValar1: ok, so the sword was of good mats if not great
craftsmanship since it was of orc-make, lighter than expected. Sturdy.
Good quality, sharp. Shiver-inducing, hard to spot runes on the hilt in
Black Speech, appearing to be a curse. Crooked (scimitar). Made Meren
feel sick and it seemed almost to have a bad smell to her. The runes
had something in them of their maker of the sorcery, not the mere
inscriber. Sword from northern Hithaeglir, older than the inscribed
runes. Runes too intricate to be inscribed by an orc. Elven variant of
the Firth, not Dwarvish. A confusion on whether the sword is very old
or quite recently made (a reason these notes are needed). Cirth or
VardaValar1: Black Speech or a non-Elven language also inconsistent.
ArPharazonV: Apparently it's made in bulk, to allow a scout access to
it, but also the runes are too delicate to be inscribed by an Orc. Is
this a contradiction, or were there a number of humans working on them
at the time?
AriehnV: Cirth are the letters if i recall right
ArPharazonV: *too intricate, sorry
Eonwe Valar: Actually, one of the discussions we had, we tossed around the idea we were wrong about it being a scout.
VardaValar1: Auros isn't as affected as we younger, non-Noldor elves.
ArPharazonV: To make the sword more unique, you mean?
VardaValar1: Orcs were elves once, at least their ancestors. Maybe a few can do fine work?
Eonwe Valar: The July 31st conversation.
Eonwe Valar: To quote myself from one of our conversations, hehe... "Weapons were one of the things orcs made well".
Eonwe Valar: We discussed that it wasn't a scout to give a reason why
the sword would "seemingly randomly" be in the hands of random orc #432
(from our perspective)
VardaValar1: If we had examined more of the swords from the possibly
special groups sent ahead of the possessing sorceror, we might have
found more of such make. Maybe only on selected orcs.
VardaValar1: They may not have been just any old orcs, but a special advance group.
VardaValar1: They were working with the spiders.
ArPharazonV: Commandos. Seals.
VardaValar1: Sauron was calling all evil things to him, and that would have also been a general call that the Ring would obey.
VardaValar1: That sort of idea, aye, Phar. : )
VardaValar1: Not an ordinary scout, indeed.
VardaValar1: Oh, the "fine work" above referred to the runes.
Eonwe Valar: "Eonwe Valar: Not necessarily. If the sword is stolen,
*what* the orc did as part of his troop doesn't matter. All that
matters is that he somehow got it, either through thievery or murder,
could not stand against his fellows, and while running ended up
stumbling into us."
Eonwe Valar: "Eonwe Valar: Our assumption was the orc was a scout. If
we're wrong, it doesn't affect the story per se, except that in story
we get to re-assess our assumptions.If we want."
Eonwe Valar: Just a quote quote from the July 31st discussion.
VardaValar1: If he was a thief, he was aware that the sword was valuable for some reason, but maybe not why.
Eonwe Valar: Doing this reading, a couple of other things came to me.
Eonwe Valar: First, the deal with the orc sword has been in some ways
an inversion of the Ring: The sword was picked up by one of us,
"randomly" grabbed by another of us, then tossed to the ground, claimed
by another, and eventually taken from that person. The Ring, it was
trusted Bilbo was "meant" to have it, and that Frodo after him was
"meant" to have it.
AriehnV: i think i remember that we discussed that the sword , well the
runes on it , were a sort of communication device that was used to keep
control of the orcs to to contact a servant of sauron
AriehnV: in which case , we speculated , it probably "orignially"
belonged to an officer , but then if a scout picked it up as discarded
weapon he probably would have felt the controlling power but couldnt
make sense of it
VardaValar1 has left the room.
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Would the officer in this case have died, for the sword to
be discarded? It seems unlikely for him to "discard" the sword if he
knew he had it for a reason. And surely, as an officer, he'd know this.
VardaValar1: Pardon. Clicking down to read Eonwe's stuff somehow made a total close.
Eonwe Valar: Not to get bogged down in something that may not matter
too much story-wise (unless we somehow use it), but I think
treacherously slain then the bandit makes off with it and ends up
running into us sounds reasonable.
Eonwe Valar: The Uruk-Hai and the orcs or Mordor could barely keep the
peace. Orcs from Mirkwood and orcs from the Misty Mountains may not be
much more pleasant to eachother if/when forced to work together, and it
seems we could be dealing with that here all things considered.
karakedi25: My error, it's Cirth.
Eonwe Valar: *orcs of Mordor
ArPharazonV: So this "scout" wasn't actually scouting, he just made off
with the sword and happened to run into us around the same time as we
got into a fight with the spiders.
Eonwe Valar: Bad timing on his part, hehe.
VardaValar1: What did he expect to accomplish if taking the sword would
make him be alone? He must not have expected to be caught thieving.
AriehnV: i wonder , he must have felt the power emanating from the runes and maybe hoped to get and advantageous deal for it
Eonwe Valar: Doesn't seem to me orcs need much of a reason to kill and
steal, but as far as motivation goes, he could've expected to use it as
a status symbol or more to gain a following of his own.
AriehnV: kind of "protection money*
AriehnV: "you can have it back if you it nicely"
ArPharazonV: Perhaps it was not just him. Maybe there was a little
faction-argument between the orcs of this particular group, and either
he's the only survivor running off with the spoils, or the rest of his
"side" was wiped out and he just managed to get out with the blade.
VardaValar1: Ok, he stole it thinking he wouldn't be caught, but was
caught (runes warned, maybe?), and was running for his life and bumped
Eonwe Valar: Thinking the situtation with the Uruk'Hai and the orcs of Mordor here.
AriehnV: that works
karakedi25: Do we need to know all of that? Frali found the sword, and
by the time we saw it, we had left the orc far behind. So we can't know
much about who it was.
ArPharazonV: I was thinking about the situation at Cirith Ungol where
both sides fired off against each other and Sam only ran into a couple
of survivors out of the entire garrison.
karakedi25: factional friction is almost a given among orcs
VardaValar1: His side was losing the argument and, as the one with the
sword trying to take over, he ran to keep his head from being lopped
Eonwe Valar: I'd say both situations reflect what we're going for.
ArPharazonV: Yes, that, Varda.
Eonwe Valar: Do our characters need to know all this? No. Do we as writers need to know all this? Not really.
VardaValar1: May have been some other runners out in that forest. Mmmm spider lunch.
Eonwe Valar: Might make for some interesting speculation on a wiser man's part, though.
AriehnV: not really no , but its nice spelutating this and interesiting
VardaValar1: It may not ever be obvious to the reader, but it helps us write more correctly.
AriehnV: and that
VardaValar1: Only one sword, only for an officer, how it came to us.
VardaValar1: May have been one such sword with each band.
ArPharazonV: Aye. A bit rarer than first imagined, but still a good
number of them going around (assuming there are quite a few of these
bands running about)
VardaValar1: Help them find each other again in a mirky wood full of dangerous elves?
Eonwe Valar: Well it still has the "I said spelled out 'Gandalf is here for all to see'" problem.
Eonwe Valar: *I just spelled
VardaValar1: Low level spell, not a giant one?
Eonwe Valar: Not that anything is perfect, hehe.
AriehnV: i believe that is not that relevant because it is known to all the Elves that the Enemy is on the move
AriehnV: so a single spell wouldnt fall into weight
VardaValar1: Lot of magic going on with the new strong mirk and corruption of animals.
AriehnV: Mordor might have hoped that their own activity from more important actions would hide these minor devices
VardaValar1: Maybe it helped spread the new-fangled mirk.
ArPharazonV: Assuming that the Elves are sensitive to the swords'
presence in the first place. I know they have power in both the living
and the shadow world, but I can imagine the sword's communication
functions to avoid the usual channels and be hidden in the background
"magic" where only the people who knew they existed, knew how to find
VardaValar1: Thus the bands would need to spread out in particular directions.
ArPharazonV: The background magic being, indeed, things like the animal corruption, the mirk, etc.
Eonwe Valar: Well, I had another thought in all my digging. Feel free to squash it with lore or story concerns though, hehe.
VardaValar1: If it's a mirk-spreader, the mirk is so pervasive that the swords would be nearly invisible.
VardaValar1: Sort of like pulling taffy or spreading webs.
Eonwe Valar: It was the Elves who had come from Aman and walked at once
in both worlds, not ever Elf, that "had power over both worlds"
Eonwe Valar: *every Elf
ArPharazonV: Ah, true, Eonwe. But that only supports my point :-)
VardaValar1: Agreed, only the older elves had their fea showing as a glow so much.
AriehnV: hmm if you ever tried on an old radio transmitter to tune in a
medium radio station with a lot of static and maybe other stations
around the same frequency that maybe gives you an idea :-)
AriehnV: medium wave broadwith
AriehnV: bandwith , broadcast frequency , you know what i want to say :-D
Eonwe Valar: Shall I share my other thought? :}
AriehnV: please do
Eonwe Valar: As I said, feel free to squash it with lore/story concerns, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: You know that staff the Mirkwood Elves are looking for?
The one that's supposed to play a big role in Angmar? (Now you all say
"Yes" like you don't know I'm going somewhere with this)
Eonwe Valar: Doesn't exist. (And now you all pretend to be shocked, hehe)
AriehnV: *nods like a good girl"
ArPharazonV: *le gasp*
VardaValar1: *doesn't exist!*
AriehnV: so we are chasing fairytales?
ArPharazonV: Like getting halfway through LotR and finding out that
Sauron doesn't actually exist, he's just made up by Orcs and Nazgul
trying to terrorize Middle-earth.
Eonwe Valar: (more coming)
AriehnV: better fast ^^ , "thinks with longing of cosy blanket upstairs"
Eonwe Valar: We had discussed the possibility of a headpiece for the
staff, and I was thinking that, while destroying the orc sword would
complete the Ring-inversion (the Free Peoples actually being able to
destroy to problem-item, sort of an anti-quest. hehe), what if the
staff is actually a glaive? Thus orc sword = head piece.
AriehnV: nice twist ..
VardaValar1: I like it.
AriehnV: I do
AriehnV: but what does our Loremaster say|? Indis ? if your not busy in an instance?
ArPharazonV: So this blade is unique, then?
Eonwe Valar: Of course, if that was the case, and we destroy it in
Rivendell, get all the way to Angmar and find that we already dealt
with the macguffin, and our work was done before we left home,hehe.
ArPharazonV: It's actually part of the big artefact of evil that we've
been hunting, and part of it just happened to end up on an Orc who just
happened to run into us?
AriehnV: would be a kind of lol effect .. "we should have known that earlier and could have saved us the trouble"
ArPharazonV: That would make his theft rather more high-profile than we
imagined. He'd probably have to have stolen it from the sorcerer
himself then, though why Calaron has not also been looking for that
particular piece is a mystery.
Eonwe Valar: It would work in *some* ways.. "evil will oft evil mar" and all. But aye, I invited you all to poke holes in it :}
AriehnV: maybe the sorcerer was too busy to notice
ArPharazonV: "Oh, some orc ran off with half the key to power in the
north. I'll let him go while I go waaaay over there to the northwest to
get the other piece, first!"
AriehnV: and only now finds out
VardaValar1: We use the headpiece sword to help find the staff, not
realizing why it's linked, and are in danger of helping the baddies put
it together, and are making it stronger by approaching.
AriehnV: which of cours then would throw Calaron again into our path
ArPharazonV: Perhaps, Arien. Perhaps he was thinking his forces were carrying it with them as they go to Angmar.
ArPharazonV: And when they get there, they open the box, and notice the thing's been nicked ages ago.
Eonwe Valar: Calaron might've known it was in Mirkwood. Would explain
his presence there, and make the whole venture a "nick-of-time" sort of
thing: The orc goes rogue at a time very convenient for us, not so
convenient for our enemy.
VardaValar1: The headpiece was sent ahead to cause destruction to the magic gates at the Hall of Thranduil?
VardaValar1: He draws off the elves, then the orcs are supposed to
return with the headpiece, not even aware that they wrecked the magical
ArPharazonV: Could be. Perhaps the band the orc was from, was
instructed to either guard the headpiece while Calaron was westwards,
or even to experimentally exploit its use aimed towards Thranduil.
Eonwe Valar: Both pieces might've been looted from Angmar in the time
since its collapse. Troll-treasure from Gondolin and all...
ArPharazonV: And unknown to Calaron, someone in that band ran off with
the headpiece, and he would never find out until returning from Angmar.
Or, in this case, until we show up at Angmar with the thing.
VardaValar1: Aye. If trolls could have looted such great swords, a lot was loose out there.
VardaValar1: Calaron may have had the staff with him, expecting to rejoin the parts.
VardaValar1: Of course the orcs were going to follow him and he could put it together when not being chased. oops.
AriehnV: Elrond might suspect the nature of the sword but cant be a
hundred percent sure .. thats why the sword has to go with our merry
band to confirm this
VardaValar1: Or Elrond can tell that it's linked and can be used to locate the staff.
Eonwe Valar: The biggest problem I see is that if it is in our power to
destroy it, we should. And if we have to take it to a certain spot to
destroy it, and Calaron is smart enough to be waiting there for us,
that makes him a better judge of character than Sauron, hehe.
VardaValar1: Calaron went home to safety and try to do what he could
with half. Then we show up with the other half, conveniently bringing
it to him.
Eonwe Valar: Doubly so if this spot is also the place at which the weapon would be at its strongest.
ArPharazonV: Well, Sauron is rather limited in the intentions and emotions he can conceive that other people can have.
VardaValar1: We can only destroy the runes in Angmar? ;-)
ArPharazonV: Calaron, however, is an elf. An elf whose memories and
personality lie open to the one possessing him. Surely such efforts
could be predicted by him.
VardaValar1: Aye, he is driven by power so that is all other people can be driven by.
Eonwe Valar: Of course, this actually creates alot of problems too.
VardaValar1: A long story needs lots of complications. ^^
Eonwe Valar: Considering we established its fashion fairly solidly.
AriehnV: well if that is the case neither Frali as the "finder" of the
sword nor the sword itself would be able to stay in Rivendell not to
enlargen their danger
ArPharazonV: I wonder where the staff/glaive actually is. Are we saying
that the sorcerer/Calaron/'s forces already has/have it with him/them
and they're going to Angmar to amplify its power, or is it actually in
Angmar and they're going to retrieve it, hoping to join it up with the
headpiece? I imagine the latter.
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Well it depends on the quality of intelligence in Thranduil's halls about "The Crooked Staff"
ArPharazonV: But why, in either case, would they not bring the headpiece with them in the first place?
ArPharazonV: Unless they are under the impression that they actually
are, and the orc runner is actually *from* the force entrusted with
carrying it to Angmar, and has come a long way in his retreat before
running into us.
VardaValar1: That would be good, if Calaron is headed to Angmar with new intel from Dol Guldur, to dig out the staff.
Eonwe Valar: If the sword and staff were separated (likely by greedy
in-fighting between looters) after Angmar fell, each piece could've
ended up virtually anywhere.
AriehnV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aye. And I would imagine the sorcerer finding the
headpiece, using it to strengthen his own powers and spreading the
"mirk", as well as being inspired by this find to go look for the other
piece. Though why he would wait to do this *until* overrunning Calaron,
taking his body, and confronting us, I don't know.
VardaValar1: Calaron may have received a message that the staff has
been located in the northern mountains of Mirkwood and being taken to
Angmar, so he's headed there to get it. He expects the orcs to be
following behind with the headpiece.
ArPharazonV: The staff is already found?
ArPharazonV: Then what is the purpose of bringing it to Angmar?
VardaValar1: Central location, so they can fit the headpiece to it. Headquarters.
AriehnV: it might need the place to imbue it with the full power
VardaValar1: maybe the only place they can be properly joined.
Eonwe Valar: The discussion we had about it was that somwhere in Angmar
would lie its origin point, where in theory it would be strongest.
Eonwe Valar: Or any of the above.
VardaValar1: Calaron just got the news that the staff was found and
it's on the way to Angmar, one reason he's leaving Mirkwood when he
could've continued the attack (he thinks) with the headpiece.
ArPharazonV: Or maybe there's a third piece there.
Eonwe Valar: The weapon being from the Angmar period would account for the age of the blade.
ArPharazonV: Required to fit the staff and the blade together.
AriehnV: a sheath
AriehnV: or a band
VardaValar1: Aye, accounts for the age.
Eonwe Valar: Since weapons are one thing orcs do well, we might be able to surmise an orcish black-smith.
VardaValar1: Don't need to add a third piece this late in the story.
ArPharazonV: This is getting into uncomfortable territory. I'm starting to think we've ended up in a Triforce story.
Eonwe Valar: That accounts for the fashion of the blade.
Eonwe Valar: As I said, feel free to squash this with lore/story concerns.
ArPharazonV: Find all the pieces, put em together, and do it before the enemy has a chance to do the same?
AriehnV: hehe i think i am heading to a uniform bed with a uniforce blanket :-)
ArPharazonV: namarie, Arien :-)
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien :}
AriehnV: i ll catch up on what u decide but i like this
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: The problem is, if we're doing this, we should be seeking
to destroy the items, and it seems unlikely such an item would be
*most* vulnerable when assembled.
ArPharazonV: That assumes we know what the item actually is.
Eonwe Valar: So aye, we should be seeking to destroy the pieces, which I would serious limit to just a staff and blade.
Eonwe Valar: *seriously
ArPharazonV: In any case, we can forget the third piece, and just say
that some location, a nexus, or a mold, or whatever, in Angmar, is
required for the assembly of staff and headpiece.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, but even without the knowledge we would be destroying the blade in Rivendell.
Eonwe Valar: *the knowledge of what it is.
ArPharazonV: Let's set up a backstory here.
ArPharazonV: Sorcerer finds the headpiece. Is intrigued. Uses it and
the ring he has, to increase his power, spread a bit of shadow over
ArPharazonV: But he is old, and a bit fragile, and would like to find a
new host, preferably on the side of the Elves, so he can use that to
the advantage of Mordor.
ArPharazonV: To do this, he leaves the ring for a scout to be found,
who is Calaron, who has been coming from a mission up north, near his
headquarters. This assumes that Calaron has the ring at the time of his
possession, facilitating the process.
Eonwe Valar: Not even necessarily Mordor directly.
ArPharazonV: Why Calaron would pick it up? Dunno. That's a flaw.
ArPharazonV: Other possibility is that the ring is placed on Calaron at
the time of the western outpost being overrun, in order to facilitate
the possession right there. Seems a bit farfetched, also.
Eonwe Valar: I mean that in a Saruman/Ungoliant/Shelob "I'm my own boss
but everything I do ends up helping Evil anyway" kind of way.
ArPharazonV: Aye, Eonwe, that's true, a bit like Glauring perhaps, too.
ArPharazonV: Whatever the case, during this whole war/possession
business, sorcerer's forces look for the staff. Sorcerer, in the
meantime, learns from Calaron a bit about his brother's mission, and
would like to know more.
Eonwe Valar: And don't feel a need to commit to this. If it's a bad
idea, or we can't make it work, let's destroy it and discard it as soon
as possible, hehe.
ArPharazonV: He goes to Thranduil's Halls in a scheme to break
Calaron's spirit, by shooting his love interest. Succeeds, is now in
full control. He also takes the opportunity to spy a bit on our party,
make sure we're still in Mirkwood.
ArPharazonV: He then heads west to set up the ambush. Along the way, he receives word; the staff has been found.
Eonwe Valar: I forget, but I assumed/got the impression the staff was more tied to Calaron's possessor, i.e., in his possession.
ArPharazonV: Hmm, not sure about that; did we not just say that the
staff had been found in the north, and that's why he's now trying to
Eonwe Valar: That's part of the reason I want to do the same thing for
the Staff that I did for the sword. It's discussions and writing over
so logn a period of time, it's hard to keep it all in focus and
remember why I thought they were passable ideas in the first place,
ArPharazonV: Anyway, he sends orders for a march to the northwest. To
Angmar. To combine the pieces. A band of orcs is entrusted with the
headpiece. One of these orcs makes off with the headpiece, unknown to
either the band itself who's under the impression that the box/chest
thing they carry with them to Angmar still contains it, or Calaron.
ArPharazonV: Other possibility is that Calaron specifically leaves the
band with the headpiece in Mirkwood, to test it out against Thranduil's
defenses, while he himself goes northwest to find the key combining
ArPharazonV: After the location is found, he intends to give orders for the headpiece to be brought there.
ArPharazonV: Again, seems a bit weird to me, but doable.
ArPharazonV: So, orc makes off with the blade which is actually the
headpiece, and does not actually use the runes to communicate/link with
the sorcer... but actually links back to the staff.
ArPharazonV: He runs into us. We kill him. We take the blade. We run into the ambush.
ArPharazonV: For some reason, Calaron does not notice us having the
headpiece with us. Perhaps it doesn't give off as much of a presence as
karakedi25: I'm having trouble understaning how a sword can be a headpiece to a staff, unless the hilt is detachable.
ArPharazonV: Or the hilt screws itself on the top of the staff, perhaps
through some device found in Angmar? Otherwise, I don't know how Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: It might be the sorcerer has one piece (staff maybe,
however that works out) brought it with him to seek the sword, is close
to obtaining it (if it weren't for those meddling Elves and their
Dwarf), gets chased off to lick his wounds, and finds out all to late
the sword is no longer in Mirkwood.
ArPharazonV: So sorcerer already has the staff, uses that instead to grow his power, and has his forces find the sword?
Eonwe Valar: It could be a pommel was devised to go over the connection
on the sword, and a staff head for the staff. Quick thought.
karakedi25: it would have to be something like that
ArPharazonV: Sword is found, sorcerer follows that up by ordering march to Angmar to take place after the ambush...
ArPharazonV: but in the meantime, an orc steals the sword?
Eonwe Valar: The looters probably would want to cover the fact that
they didn't get the whole thing. What they knew about the item itself
is of no consequence.
ArPharazonV: Or is the orc in fact on his way to bring the sword to the
sorcerer when we run into him? Odd direction of intercept, then.
Eonwe Valar: The orcs involved with the sword may not even be in
service of the sorcerer, or a mixed party with the one who runs into us
being the guy whom ended up with it (most recently) in the lull between
Angmar's fall and the search for it by the sorcerer.
ArPharazonV: So the sorcerer does not, in fact, know that it has been found?
VardaValar1: If orcs realize they have something that could give them
power, that would be enough to cause a fight. Make it hard for the
bearer to take it to Calaron.
Eonwe Valar: Kind of a "We want your weapon, come along quietly" kind
of thing, the orc manages to get it back, runs for it, runs into us,
and one orc is as dead as another, hehe.
ArPharazonV: Hmm. Still, for Calaron's justification to go to Angmar
*at that time* news must have reached him of the sword's discovery.
Eonwe Valar: Let me run down what's in my head of general, see how it sounds.
ArPharazonV: Could there be a rebel band of orcs holding on to the
sword, the sorcerer's forces discovering it in their possession,
sending news to the sorcerer, only to have what remains of that band
trying to claim the sword back?
VardaValar1: I still like that he was testing it vs Thranduil's magic, trying to see about disrupting it.
fladrifv has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: 1.) Sorcerer, however he knows about it, is looking to
rejoin staff and blade. Has staff somehow, uses it in Mirkwood, becomes
known to Elves (giving reason for it to be sought by a Thranduil for
destruction, which is already established).
ArPharazonV: Perhaps he actually found the staff in Angmar, and became
a threat in Mirkwood for the sole purpose of finding the sword, rumored
to be in Mirkwood.
VardaValar1: Not bad, Phar.
Eonwe Valar: 2.) Somehow over the course of some thousand years, the
sword has ended up in the hands of random (or not-so-random) orc #432
in Mirkwood at the time we're there.
VardaValar1: Just happens to be in the vicinity of Dol Guldur.
ArPharazonV: Or the north. Sorcerer's actions were mostly in the north of Mirkwood or along the mountains.
ArPharazonV: Though he might just have been looking in the wrong place.
ArPharazonV: If the Nazgul can do it, so can he :-)
Eonwe Valar: 3.) Sorcerer's orcs come across this random orc. Insert
whatever situation between the orcs would best fit. Orcs (maybe) send
word they have the sword. Sorcerer moves to meet them, tries to break
his host in the meantime.
ArPharazonV: Sounds good. That would give him a motivation to only
return to Angmar *after* the sword has been found, and the ambush has
Eonwe Valar: 4.) Random orc #432 (or any orc in the group for any
reason, really. Which one and why doesn't matter for our purposes) gets
away from the others sword in hand, runs into us, he dies, we get sword.
Eonwe Valar: 5.) Sorcerer, presumably working on some limited knowledge
of Auros' travels, intercepts the group, maybe knowing, maybe not
knowing of our recent aquisition.
VardaValar1: (So the staff, not the sword, was used vs Thranduil's Hall magic.)
ArPharazonV: When, Varda?
Eonwe Valar: 6.a.) If he does know, he finds he can't wrest it from us,
initiates a gambit to try to get us to bring it to him where he needs
it, hoping we don't realize what we have, possibly it not mattering.
VardaValar1: (Eonwe's #1)
ArPharazonV: Ah, early on.
VardaValar1: (Sorceror may think Auros is looking into the staff and
sword, not realizing he's scouting for a safe route for the One Ring.)
ArPharazonV: Risky, Eonwe. He could not know we wouldn't leave it in Rivendell.
ArPharazonV: But perhaps, yes, the only choice.
VardaValar1: He would count on Elrond's realizing the sword can take us to the staff, for whatever reason.
karakedi25: I like the idea of the sorc having some anxious moments about the sword in our hands and possibly in Rivendell
VardaValar1: Aye, Indis. :-)
Eonwe Valar: 6.b.) If he doesn't know, he finds too late that the sword
is no longer in his possession, maybe spends more time in Mirkwood
searching for it (buying us precious time to get to Angmar,
story-wise), at some point deciding to give up his search in Mirkwood,
has backup plan in Angmar or to reestablish a search grid, something,
where he's already taunted us to go so he can test his
newfoundpower/evil laugh in our face/whatever.
Eonwe Valar: Roughly.
Eonwe Valar: End of outline.
ArPharazonV: What if he continues to go to Angmar, but for a more
convenient way of finding the sword? Perhaps the staff is amplified
there for some reason. Imagine him activating the search there,
assuming he'll need to go back to Mirkwood, only to realize the sword's
actually coming his way from the south?
ArPharazonV: I mean that the link between staff and sword is amplified there.
ArPharazonV: Perhaps that's how he know the sword was to be found in Mirkwood in the first place.
Eonwe Valar: I say staff because that's established in the story that
we're looking for it. Thranduil himself knows of it, so I would assume
that's the item that's most known about/seen by the orcs being killed,
which would be how Thranduil is getting his intel anyway. The staff is
being used, possibly being bragged about, the search for the sword is
Eonwe Valar: *I say staff in 1.)
Eonwe Valar: All this said, I still see two big problems that need resolved moreso than all the fun we've been having :}
ArPharazonV: Makes sense. If the staff is more elusive and the sword
more used against us, we would probably have more knowledge about the
sword than the staff, especially if we have people scouting out the
place, like Calaron originally did.
ArPharazonV: So good to have it the other way around.
Eonwe Valar: Problem 1.) The runes on the sword. Why, for what purpose? Why are they newer than the blade?
Eonwe Valar: 2.) Why aren't we destroying this in Rivendell? Can we
not? If we can't how must we go about it? Do we need a blacksmith as
skilled as/more skilled than Auros to destroy it in the place of its
origin? Would any blacksmith do? Do we hope to find some wood and/or
coal to build up a forge there?
ArPharazonV: I imagined them being used to link back to the staff for
some reason. Perhaps they were only added when the glaive was
seperated, and communication/linking was required.
Eonwe Valar: Do we need to find a dragon or a volcano? :}
VardaValar1: Trying to bring some property of the ancient blade into the mix by pulling on it with the runes?
VardaValar1: We've got to ask Bilbo to quit killing off our dragons.
ArPharazonV: Perhaps we don't know what the sword *is*. All we know is
that it links back north, and we might use it to find the sorcerer or
the staff. The fact that it is actually part of the weapon doesn't have
to be known, even by Elrond.
ArPharazonV: So, we have no reason to destroy the thing.
VardaValar1: Maybe like Gandalf uses a sword and staff, they'd be assumed separate possessions?
ArPharazonV: Yes, perhaps.
VardaValar1: We'd be using the sorceror's sword/athame to find him. And such a sword should not be used as an actual sword.
VardaValar1: sorry, had a non-transitioned thought there by thinking of it as an athame.
VardaValar1: which should be a dagger probably. Forget that, I guess.
ArPharazonV: It's a compass. A dragon-radar, if you know the Dragonball series.
ArPharazonV: It points us to the staff. We use it to get to the staff. We only use it as a radar, not a weapon?
ArPharazonV: It's a tool, and we have no idea it should actually be destroyed.
ArPharazonV: In contrast to the Ring, the identity of which has been known since Hobbiton.
VardaValar1: Aye, we just don't realize it's full import. A magical radar is cool enough, after all.
ArPharazonV: Aye, especially when we're actually looking for the item it points to, in the first place.
VardaValar1: We might think it's what the sorceror used to locate the powerful staff in the first place.
ArPharazonV: Could be.
VardaValar1: We think we're in Dragonball when we're not. : )
ArPharazonV: So. Sorcerer finds staff in Angmar. Uses it to locate
sword... in Mirkwood. Goes to Mirkwood. Staff is weakened, can't
pinpoint location. Has people searching. Whole possession-arc, with
ring, after using staff to poke some holes in Mirkwood and releasing
ArPharazonV: Random orc has sword, or band of orcs has sword. Band with
sword is discovered by troops of sorcerer/Calaron-at-this-point.
Eonwe Valar: In-depth on Problem 1: Does anything we're discussing
contradict what we've established about the runes in the story?
ArPharazonV: Message is sent, as Calaron sets up ambush. Orc retreats
with sword, runs into us. We take sword. We run into ambush. Calaron
discovers we don't have it (one possibility), heads north, thinking his
troops have the sword. We head to Rivendell with sword.
ArPharazonV: Calaron realizes he does not in fact have the sword,
diverts forces back into Mirkwood to look for it. Continues to Angmar
with staff to locate sword again.
ArPharazonV: As he does so, we come up north with the sword. Calaron
surprised, as he sees it coming. Pleasantly surprised. Half expecting
us, he resolves to finding the location to combine sword and staff.
VardaValar1: Similar runes on the staff resonate with the runes on the sword-hilt.
ArPharazonV: We sneak into Angmar with the sword, try to locate staff.
Run into Calaron. Confrontation. I have some ideas for this, but none
that I'm telling yet.
VardaValar1: The runes in the story have a contradiction about being in Black Speech or Elven.
ArPharazonV: Elven alphabet, that I know. Cirth, was it? Still, Black
Speech, or some variant of Black Speech that Meren does not recognize.
Could be a compromise.
Eonwe Valar: The language is Black Speech, the mode of writing is Elvish, as I recall. I.e. Cirthas Daeron vs Angerthas Moria.
VardaValar1: The brothers might also be a way to help locate the staff.
So Calion might need to be the one carrying the sword, wrapped safely
except during radar checks.
karakedi25: only the Cirth are elven. The language can be a variant of Black Speech
VardaValar1: Aye, that works.
ArPharazonV: *nod* some dialect that Meren does not fully recognize.
ArPharazonV: Native to Angmar, perhaps.
VardaValar1: Really ancient dialect that Elrond recognizes.
ArPharazonV: Ah! Yes. Which is how we know it leads us to the staff.
But would he not expect a link between them to the point of keeping the
sword around being risky?
ArPharazonV: Anyway, will my brief summary of events do?
Eonwe Valar: I'm having some trouble resolving the runes = Elvish
script + being new(er than the sword) + not being the item recovered by
VardaValar1: Good summaries
VardaValar1: We could make the scropt be old instead.
ArPharazonV: Not.. necessarily.
VardaValar1: The sorceror thinks he's recovered the sword, in the hands of minions and following him.
ArPharazonV: Let's say the glaive, or complete weapon, or other, while
being assembled of parts, is supposed to be used as a whole, back when
it was active.
Eonwe Valar: Phar's Summary, on Calaron discovers we don't have it ...
I think it would be more he doesn't notice we have it, because I think
Frali was using it, or at the least it would be hanging at his side.
ArPharazonV: yes, that's what I meant, Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: ok, no problem then.
VardaValar1: Maybe the dwarven ambience did something fishy to the detection.
VardaValar1: afk helping unload a car
ArPharazonV: Anyway, for some reason, Angmar was in trouble, and it was
prudent that the power of the weapon was needed at two fronts. So what
do they do? They seperate the weapon. For easier use, it is *now* that
the runes are described, and the weapons link to each other's locations.
ArPharazonV: Just in case one was lost.
ArPharazonV: This could be well after the initial creation of the glaive, and would allow for a younger script.
ArPharazonV: *inscribed, sorry
Eonwe Valar: Heh,m the runes on each item glows when the other part is near?
ArPharazonV: Maybe. But they also need to be able to be used to specify
a certain direction or area that the other is located, though I don't
ArPharazonV: After all, we're using it to track our way to Angmar, and
the sorcerer was using the staff to locate the sword all the way from
Angmar to Mirkwood.
ArPharazonV: It would be silly to point it at a map and have the area
light up, but still, we need something more than "glows when near".
Eonwe Valar: I'm not sure he need track it from Angmar, but it would
probably be easier to get word of something like this as a badguy than
as a goodguy, depending on how much time the one searching has.
ArPharazonV: Do realize he already has some powers, like the ring, and
maybe some device in Angmar can be used to shine a light in the general
direction of the sword when the staff is inserted.
ArPharazonV: This is getting.. very science fiction.
Eonwe Valar: If we're going with the old-man sorcerer version, he
could've spent his life narrowing the field to Mirkwood, and out of
time, makes his move on Calaron.
ArPharazonV: That is a possibility. But how would he narrow it down,
using the staff? And why would he proceed to Angmar, not knowing where
the sword is, if not to try and locate it from there again?
Eonwe Valar: I'm just trying to keep it both Tolkien and consistent in
our story, while getting a clear picutre in my mind of it.
ArPharazonV: I know, but my plot devices are falling apart, and I need to find new ones :-)
Eonwe Valar: For the same reason Saruman and Saruon were able to narrow their searches for the RIng.
Eonwe Valar: *Sauron
ArPharazonV: Sauron used Gollum. And even while hearing the name Shire
from him, the Nazgul still went to the completely wrong place before
going to the actual Shire.
Eonwe Valar: They knew Isildur took it. FIgure out what happened to
Isildur, narrow the search, find a bunch of hobbits living downriver,
try to get some knowledge out of them if possible. Catch Gollum, get a
lucky break and advance several centuries of searching in a few days,
ArPharazonV: So the sorcerer did not, in fact, use the staff to narrow it down to Mirkwood?
Eonwe Valar: It's the Gandalf starting fire on Caradhras issue. The
kind of power that could reach Mirkwood from Angmar would hit Rivendell
Eonwe Valar: At best, it's a reason to send scout up north during the
whole sending out scouts thing, and at worst it's a major red flag that
something is going down.
Eonwe Valar: Having said that, it doesn't sound completely horrible,
but it seems like a level of power we shouldn't deal with, especially
if this is only half the item.
ArPharazonV: Allright. So sorcerer finds staff. Does not use it to
locate sword in mirkwood; in fact, spends a lot of time narrowing it
down to mirkwood, to the point where he needs to take a new body to get
more control over Mirkwood and to have more time to find the sword.
ArPharazonV: During the search of Mirkwood he uses the staff, spreads a
shadow of Mirkwood, hopefully trying to lure out the sword in some odd
Eonwe Valar: I would imagine in the mind of a mortal, (seems we dropped
the lesser Maia version along the way) picking an immortal Elf would be
a great host, and allow for plenty more time.
ArPharazonV: Possession happens, sword is found not long after. Message
sent. Sorcerer is pleased, continues with ambush he was already setting
up, plans to go to Angmar with both pieces. Sword is lost, unknown to
him. He does not discover it on us, though we have it, and tells us to
come northwest if we want to face him again, because basically, he's
eager to go there and does not wish to toy with us some more.
Eonwe Valar: I would say that he narrows it to Mirkwood through
research, and from there he uses a compination of orcs hunting for the
sword and hoping to locate it via the staff.
ArPharazonV: Yes, that works.
Eonwe Valar: *combination
ArPharazonV: Anyway, two possibilities:
Eonwe Valar: Orcs/spies/ etc. to furhter narrow the field, and the staff the closer he gets.
ArPharazonV: 1) he goes to Angmar, only realizes he doesn't have the
sword while reaching Angmar, sends forces back to Mirkwood to find it.
This leaves him less prepared to face us when we get there.
ArPharazonV: 2) He realizes sword is missing, searches a bit for it,
comes up empty-handed, and goes to Angmar anyway. His delay, also,
causes him to less prepared.
ArPharazonV: In both cases, he manages to amplify the staff at its
origin, runes start glowing, and he realizes the sword is actually
coming his way.
ArPharazonV: My question is: Why would he return to Angmar if he
couldn't find the sword again, in possibility 2? What would he have to
Eonwe Valar: The thought comes to me that, if the sword is stolen, he
would have the area where it went missing searched, perhaps attempt to
capture Elves for questioning or infiltrate Thranduil's realm to see if
he can find it. Assuming Calaron can still pass relatively unnoticed
ArPharazonV: Possible. Though his certain reappearance might bring up some questions.
ArPharazonV: *his sudden reappearance
Eonwe Valar: I doubt he'd go in openly. I'm thinking sneak in.
ArPharazonV: But when he can't find it, then what? Again, why would he
go to Angmar? Or wouldn't he, and will we arrive there only to realize
he's not there, and neither is the staff?
karakedi25: Was Thranduil ever warned about Calaron's possession?
Eonwe Valar: If he couldn't find it, the next step would be to guess we somehow got it, unless I'm missing other possibilites.
VardaValar1: Whatever any of Thranduil's scouts knows of any import, he will probably know.
Eonwe Valar: Thranduil warned? I'm not sure, might be if anything was hinted at or discussed with the hunters in the clearing.
ArPharazonV: Good point, Eonwe. If he infiltrates the Halls, and finds
out that nobody in there knows anything about the sword, his conclusion
might be that it never reached back there; and that the ones who
intercepted the sword, would be us.
ArPharazonV: Which leads him to come to Angmar and meet us.
Eonwe Valar: I don't remember if Auros would've known at the time if it
was Calion's brother, but I'm pretty sure Auros would make it quite
known he was attacked by an Elf leading orcs.
ArPharazonV: It was clear. Calion was addressed as "brother" in the clearing.
Eonwe Valar: Oh yeah, so Auros would've raised the alarm even if no one else would've.
Eonwe Valar: Yeah, the sorcerer's stuck sneaking in instead of relying on his elf-looks :}
ArPharazonV: sneaking in, capturing a few elves, overlistening
meetings... and realizing "they don't have the sword... so who else
could have gotten away with it?"
ArPharazonV: But would we really be the first choice?
ArPharazonV: Maybe, if he thought that Auros' mission had to do with the sword and staff.
Eonwe Valar: The question in this regard is to why the sorcerer would
think/know we would bring it to Angmar. He couldn't know we'd want to
use it to find the staff rather than destroy it.
Eonwe Valar: That would make the "I know you have business in Angmar"
make more sense, given Auros doesn't think he has business there yet
Eonwe Valar: Last sentence in reply to Phar's sentence on Auros' mission.
ArPharazonV: Unless he realized that Elrond could probably tell us that the sword links to the staff. But.. that seems meh.
VardaValar1: Most likely it's a case of mistaken mission.
ArPharazonV: That would assume Calaron thinks we already have the sword when he meets us in the clearing.
Eonwe Valar: I don't imagine we'll find anything about the staff itself
in ELrond's library. I imagine this as more an item of power from
Angmar during its glory days. As I've said in another conversation, I
don't recall Angmar itself ever being invaded by the Free Peoples, just
the Witch-King beaten and the realm pretty much dissolved.
ArPharazonV: Which we do, but he doesn't know that.
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, good point.
Eonwe Valar: Well, no.
ArPharazonV: This is why it seems more likely to me that he just
doesn't realize the sword isn't in his possession until he reaches
Angmar. Possibility 1.
Eonwe Valar: Pretending for a moment that the staff *is* Auros' mission.
VardaValar1: or just finding out where the staff is could be his mission
ArPharazonV: Getting really late here. I should be going.
ArPharazonV: Can we take this up again next week?
Eonwe Valar: It would be logical that the sorcerer assumes that,
through whatever means, Auros is caught up to the sorcerer in his
search: namely, he knows that one or both items are currently in
Mirkwood. Doesn't mean he found them yet. However, if the place to both
unite them and destroy them is in Angmar, it can safely be assumed that
Auros will *have* to go there, if either one is his mission.
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, yeah, we can pick it up next week, or during the week in the discussion thread.
ArPharazonV: Allright. Saving and sending transcript.
Eonwe Valar: Sorry to keep you so long.