Valar Guild

September 25, 2011 Sunday Meeting

5pm EDT (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (5)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (chaired business section), Indis-(V)/karakedi25, VardaValar1 (Tolkien section)

Meeting begins
    Games Site Mass Update
    Topic: "Suppose Frodo would actually have had the willpower left to drop the Ring into the fire himself, would then Gollum have been on the last ship, being a ringbearer?"
    WoW branch ran dungeons for their Sunday night get-together.
     LotRO branch worked hard to be ready for the expansion by running Vol. 3, deeds, and leveling.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Phar - about 10 minutes early yet. :-)
ArPharazonV: Yep, but done with tonight's raid (our first few attempts on Majordomo Staghelm), and did some archeology before logging out :-)
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe :-)
VardaValar1: Aiya, time snuck up on me. :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: Eonwe, feel free to chair.
VardaValar1: I'll do some more invites. :-)
Eonwe Valar: OK, let's go ahead and get the meeting moving.
Eonwe Valar: Even if it's only we three right now :}

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: Bilbo's Birthday was this week. Happy Birthday Bilbo :}
VardaValar1: Yay!
Eonwe Valar: Sauron's is this coming week :}
ArPharazonV: Congratulations to both :-)
Eonwe Valar: Either of you have othe rMembership news?
ArPharazonV: Nope, no birthdays here ;-)
Eonwe Valar: ok :}

Eonwe Valar: Web:
Eonwe Valar: Games Site Mass Update: 5 days left. If your gaming info isn't on the Games Site right now, this is the time to make sure I got it.
Eonwe Valar: Any other Web News?
Eonwe Valar: OK, On to Gaming then :}

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: Starcraft 2 Patch 1.4 came out this week.
Eonwe Valar: The Diablo 3 Beta is going.
ArPharazonV: Releasedate moved to early 2012 I believe?
Eonwe Valar: Many links to many previews for WoW, and many more that I should add when I have the chance, such that I encourage you to go to the Games Site and see the list there.
Eonwe Valar: Blizzard never announces a release date until they're sure it's going to come out :}

Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: Lothar:
ArPharazonV: Well, yes, I'm sure it might be even later, but still :-)
Eonwe Valar: Sunday:
Eonwe Valar: Attending: Eonwe, Arien, Bofur, Fangorn, Varda, Elwing, Bilbo, Nob. Our goal was to fight through the Obsidian and Ruby Sanctums, the Eye of Eternity, and if we had time, Onyxia.We got through the Obsidian Sanctum fairly easily, and Arien won the drake. We then took a crack at the Ruby Sanctum, which proved to be more of a challenge. Nob joined us shortly before the penultimate boss. Unfortunately, Halion proved to be just slightly too much (we almost got him down, but didn't quite make it). At this point Arien and Nob called it a night. The rest of us went to Eye of Eternity to take on Malygos. We managed to get him down in time for the "You Don't Have An Eternity" Achievement. Afterwards Bofur called it a night. Those of us remaining decided to run a random normal Cataclysm Dungeon for the Justice Points. We ended up in the Halls of Origination. Achievements Obtained: The Twilight Zone, Gonna Go When the Volcano Blows, Besting the Black Dragonflight, You Don't Have an Eternity
Eonwe Valar: I'm sure we picked up a couple more achievements for the Obsidian Sanctum, as Arien hadn't been there yet on her character, I just neglected to jot them down.
Eonwe Valar: Friday:
Eonwe Valar: Attending: Eonwe, Elwing, Varda, Sauron, Bilbo. Nob also came in, but we already had a full group. The five of us ran Coren Direbrew several times, both for the guild challenge credit and for the trinkets. Once everyone who wanted one had a trinket useful to their character, we ran two random normal dungeons. The first was Lost City of the To'vir, and the second was Halls of Origination.

Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: Rise of Isengard is this Tuesday.
VardaValar1: Big maintenance update Monday, but the game will be up later that day on Monday.
karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya Indis.
VardaValar1: We're just starting on the LotRO news for this last week. :-) Good timing!
VardaValar1: Monday was International Talk Like a Pirate Day, many eyepatches acquired. :-)
ArPharazonV: Oh, right, don't forget Brewfest for WoW.
VardaValar1: We did our Helegrod mark warm-up run, then
VardaValar1: completed Halls of Crafting, with some nice jewelry upgrades for some, as well as the deeds, quests, and Lothlorien marks. :-)
VardaValar1: We had extra people and standbys available to swap into that long HoC run, while the rest of us helped Cirdan with WaterWorks and his class quest.
VardaValar1: Wednesday
VardaValar1: a number of the gang ran into Mirkwood for the first time, more or less together. :-)
VardaValar1: A screenshot was put up by Maedhros:
VardaValar1: We are all working away trying to get ready for the expansion. :-)
VardaValar1: Does anyone else have anything they'd like to add about LotRO for this week?

Eonwe Valar: Anyone do anything besides LotRO and WoW this week?
VardaValar1: BroodWar - Fangorn, Sauron, myself.

Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news before we move to Tolkien?
ArPharazonV: Ayup.
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead.
ArPharazonV: Few small flashgames, nothing special; bit of Starcraft II but not much because we couldn't get the team together; Brewfest started this week in WoW, a 2-week event that revolves around beer and dwarves (for the alliance) :-)
ArPharazonV: Complete with achievements, a few mounts, and a bunch of trinkets you can buy that don't do much but are fun to have, like a keg of ale you can use more times to get your raid drunk ;-)
Eonwe Valar: A pony keg *and* a keg pony, heh.
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: And my few weeks of running heroic Sethekk Halls and heroic Magister's Terrace have paid off.
ArPharazonV: I'm sure the droprate must've increased by quite a bit for the rare mounts there, because someone I know got 4 of the Sethekk mounts in one week, and I myself got the Sethekk mount yesterday and the Terrace mount today. The Ravenlord and the Swift White Hawkstrider.
ArPharazonV: If you knew how rare they were back in the expansion when they first came out, you must realise I'm either very, very, very lucky or it's been a major droprate increase.
VardaValar1: Nice to think you may have had some really great luck. :-)
ArPharazonV: Indeed!
Eonwe Valar: I've had no luck with the Ravenlord on my visits, so I tend to say it was luck and not a drop increase.
ArPharazonV: You've been trying for them the past few weeks?
Eonwe Valar: Plus I'm rather convinced Blizzard wouldn't have bothered increasing the droprate on these mounts, as they seem rather pleased about the rarity of similar mounts.
ArPharazonV: Because when one person can see 4 drop in one week I tend to think it's not just luck anymore.
Eonwe Valar: Not the past couple of weeks, no, barring the run we took through Heroic Sethekk for the guild run.
ArPharazonV: We think the droprate must have increased quite recently.
ArPharazonV: So I suggest you start trying again!
Eonwe Valar: Any other business before we move to Tolkien?
ArPharazonV: Not from me.

Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
Eonwe Valar: I here yield the floor to Varda :}
VardaValar1: Thank you. :-)
VardaValar1: Irmo sent a letter to us for the Tolkien chat. :-)
VardaValar1: His son is working through the books trying to go from an MoH to a -(V). :-) He asked some questions, so here you go!
VardaValar1: copy/paste:
VardaValar1: My son - who still has not read the books, but is deeply intrigued by the movie - keeps bugging me with questions about the books. Often silly questions, sometimes clever, but this evening Miriel and I were baffled by a question that was rather interesting:Starting from the question "why was Bilbo allowed on the last ship to Valinor, not having played a major role like the others", obvious answer: he was a ringbearer. his question:
VardaValar1: "Suppose Frodo would actually have had the willpower left to drop the Ring into the fire himself, would then Gollum have been on the last ship, being a ringbearer?"
VardaValar1: (here I'll break into the letter to let you folks respond.) Go for it!
ArPharazonV: Can't be sure what the destruction of the Ring would've done to his mind. If he'd felt himself free and "redeemed" he might have been in a fit condition to go. He would've been the only Ringbearer still alive with a dark past, and not sure what the Elves would've done about him if they still thought he was evil.
VardaValar1: It's a good question. Would it have freed his mind from the addiction or would he have gone mad at having lost the Ring? He might've jumped in after it.
VardaValar1: We do know it did not free Frodo. He clutched his substitute for the Ring now and then. So I'm inclined to believe Gollum would not have been freed after an even longer time with it.
Eonwe Valar: I'm not sure Gollum would've sat around long enough to be invited to board the ship.
VardaValar1: Where would he have gone?
ArPharazonV: True. Connections would be helpful :-)
VardaValar1: Would he have attached himself to Frodo? Fled him? Try to find his old family line by the Anduin?
Eonwe Valar: With as long as he'd been accustomed to being alone, dragging him in front of a group of men screaming "Praise them with great praise!" however sincerely meant, would probably be disconcerting to him.
VardaValar1: heh - true.
VardaValar1: So where would he have gone?
ArPharazonV: Probably out into the world, enjoying his freedom? Enjoying the sun once again? ;-)
ArPharazonV: Playing in the trees in Mirkwood?
VardaValar1: That might have been less bright at least. : )
VardaValar1: Here's more of the letter going with that question:
Eonwe Valar: I'm inclined to believe that if he made it out of Mirkwood, we would've roamed the woods of Ithilien, at least for a time.
Eonwe Valar: Well, the wilds of Ithilien.
ArPharazonV: Out of Mordor you mean.
VardaValar1: Possibly. I think he might have stuck with Frodo, as the nearest he could still get to the Ring.
Eonwe Valar: Er, Mordor, yes.
VardaValar1: Here's the copy/paste:
VardaValar1: Line of thought 1: Yes, for the ring being destroyed, he would have become Smeagol again, and would have been forgivenLine of thought 2: No, he was evil from the start, killing Deagol, and then always craving for the Ring for the sole purpose of possessing it
VardaValar1: Line of thought 2 leads to the insight, that for being allowed on the ship to Valinor, one would have had to pass the test which being a ringbearer involves, not just being a bearer.Line of thought 1 probably would have been advocated by Nienna, Irmo and Gandalf, line of thought 2 by Mandos and Tulkas.
VardaValar1: But what would Manwe and Varda have decided? What would have been the verdict of the Valar?
VardaValar1: (Open for your discussion again)
ArPharazonV: Even if they had decided against it, what would they do about it? Send him back on a ship of his own?
Eonwe Valar: Smeagol began his possession of the Ring without pity. He did have a chance to redeem himself, and whether instigated by Sam or not, he failed in the task.
VardaValar1: I have to agree that Smeagol was himself a flawed character, using the Ring for blackmail. He became invisible and learned people's secrets to gain power over them. He was thrown out of the Stoors' group for his behaviour after the Ring.
ArPharazonV: For that matter, who knows if they would've accepted Bilbo and Frodo on arrival? :-)
Eonwe Valar: Presumably Gandalf :}
Eonwe Valar: He wasn't an ordinary old man, after all :}
VardaValar1: Gandalf might indeed have been told from a distance of the decision whether or not to allow Gollum on board.
VardaValar1: Bilbo and Frodo were invited.
VardaValar1: Is just having been a Ringbearer sufficient to gain entry to the boat?
ArPharazonV: Sam went on his own, not exactly by invite, I think.
VardaValar1: Sam was also welcome. :-)
ArPharazonV: So invitation probably wasn't exactly mandatory.
Eonwe Valar: If being a Ringbearer were sufficient, would the boat be open to Sauron? :}
VardaValar1: He was supposed to spend more time in Middle-earth first, with his wife and children.
ArPharazonV: But I'm assuming you need to be a nice person, who would be satisfied with the state of peace and rest in Valinor, before you're allowed to come.
VardaValar1: My same thought, Eonwe. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Or, for that matter, the Nazgul.
VardaValar1: Bilbo turned over the Ring to Frodo. Frodo tried to turn over the Ring several times. Sam turned over the Ring to Frodo.
Eonwe Valar: No,I would say this, as in all things, depended on the actions of the bearer.
VardaValar1: Gollum wasn't about to turn over the Ring to anyone.
VardaValar1: How did each try to use the Ring?
VardaValar1: Their actions said a lot.
VardaValar1: Bilbo used it to escape relatives who would have been unpleasant to him, or escape spiders and other dangers.
Eonwe Valar: As you already mentioned, Gollum used the Ring for blackmail, after having killed Deagol to get it.
VardaValar1: Frodo was given suggestions to use the Ring by the Ringwraiths, but what use did he make of it on his own?
ArPharazonV: Frodo used it by accident ;-)
VardaValar1: True and true.
VardaValar1: Frodo also used it to escape Boromir.
ArPharazonV: Aye.
VardaValar1: Sam used it to help him rescue Frodo.
ArPharazonV: Worst thing he did was probably putting it on in Mount Doom, not that he was very sane at that point.
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: and he heard Gandalf's voice warning him to take off the Ring. :-)
VardaValar1: Irmo-(Valar ) and Miriel-(V) discussed this and decided that merely being a bearer was not sufficient, so we are in agreement. :-)
VardaValar1: Irmo added this, so we'll understand something:
VardaValar1: (As you know I don't join meetings anymore out of frustration with my typing skills; by the time I have typed something the entry has been moot two decades ago:-)))
ArPharazonV: Not much point in bringing Gollum or Sauron to Valinor anyway, they would probably not be at rest there and wither away quite soon. Gollum especially.
karakedi25: One distinction is that the bearers who were likely to be accepted by Valinor didn't exactly ask to have the ring. Gollum and Sauron wanted it for power. Even Bilbo was an accidental bearer, not a voluntary one.
VardaValar1: Well said, Indis
karakedi25: So it comes down to character again. Those who were selected were chosen for character. Those who 'volunteered' did so for reasons of character flaws.
VardaValar1: Sauron actually had a proper claim. He made it and it contained a part of his own power. But he sure didn't belong on the boat. :-)
ArPharazonV: Would he have had any problems coming to Valinor if he wanted to?
Eonwe Valar: Aye, hehe.
ArPharazonV: Well, if he wasn't in the form of a burning eye currently.
Eonwe Valar: He wouldn't have dared.
VardaValar1: He need to repent of his misdeeds to Manwe and just couldn't bring himself to do it.
ArPharazonV: No point taking him on the boat then :-)
VardaValar1: *needed
VardaValar1: Aye :-)
Eonwe Valar: I don't think he could've passed into Aman unnoticed, and upon which he would be seized and brought before the Valar.
VardaValar1: Although a powerful Maia, he was no Vala. And Valinor had quite a few Valar.
ArPharazonV: Wouldn't trust him not to hijack the boat, anyway.
VardaValar1: hehehe Phar
VardaValar1: Looks as if all four of us have weighed in on the subject, so shall we weigh anchor now?
VardaValar1: I do want to mention that Sept 22 was the book birthday of Bilbo and Frodo. :-)
Eonwe Valar: If there's no more to add, aye.
VardaValar1: To understand the LotR, it really helps to read the H and Sil, to my mind.
ArPharazonV: Not enough people read the Sil. When we faced Baleroc in the Firelands tonight I told my raid we had to drop him in a fountain... and nobody got the reference.
VardaValar1: hehehe
VardaValar1: No Ecthelion there. :-)
VardaValar1: *swings the gave in circles overhead*
VardaValar1: *gavel
VardaValar1: *gavel being complete..."
VardaValar1: *whango!*
VardaValar1: After-meeting!
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: *hands the gavel back to Eonwe* Oh, that was a bit premature. :-)
VardaValar1: Feel free to slam it down properly when ready!
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: Warmed it up for you.
Eonwe Valar: *Repeats the swing and the bang* :}
Eonwe Valar: It is Aftermeeting, so everyone is free to go about their business. It's a little over 30 minutes until the Sunday run on Lothar.
ArPharazonV: Good luck!
VardaValar1: Thirty minutes til official run time in WoW.
AriehnV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya :-)
AriehnV: aiya all :-)
VardaValar1: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya Arien :}
AriehnV: sorry my late entrance
Eonwe Valar: Missed the meeting entirely, believe it or not :}
VardaValar1: We're in After-meeting if you'ld like to pop over to WoW. :-)
Eonwe Valar: We're in Aftermeeting :}
AriehnV: was busy getting lost in BRD
Eonwe Valar: Hehe.
VardaValar1: oops :-)
AriehnV: hihi made it finally through all the bosses including the dark keeper
AriehnV: and back
AriehnV: aye ill be heading into wow :-)
VardaValar1: afk cooking
VardaValar1: Heading to WoW
VardaValar1 has left the room.
karakedi25 has left the room.
AriehnV: Namarie night owls ^^
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: OK, off I go :} Take care, good night, sleep well, and have fun :}
Eonwe Valar has left the room.