Valar Guild

October 30, 2011 Sunday Meeting

5pm EDT (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (8)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eomer-(V)ex1999-2009/dudeman51983, Eonwe Valar (presiding), Galdor-(V)/galdorandwe, Gilraen-(V)/Iryenth, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, and VardaValar1

Meeting begins
    Daylight Savings Time ended in Europe, not in the Americas until next weekend.
    All Tolkien-onlies
    Closing Anniversary entries for the Tolkien Site after October ends. The spot may be held by emailing or telling Varda that you have something you're working on for the Anniversary.
    other games
    Topic: Mythological creatures in Tolkien's works.
    WoW instance runs successful.
VardaValar1 (VardaValar1) has entered the room.
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: oops aiya :-)
VardaValar1: Aiya Sunshine :-)
AriehnV: dont tell me i missed the whole meeting =-O
VardaValar1: You're early by 10 minutes. :-)
AriehnV: yay man a first
VardaValar1: Grats :-)
galdorandwe has entered the room.
galdorandwe: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Galdor
galdorandwe: wow...I'm early, LOL
VardaValar1: 2 minutes, grats. :-)
galdorandwe: Were making banana-nutbread right now. Perfect cold-weather comfort food.
VardaValar1: Wasn't sure I'd even be home. Just lucky.
VardaValar1: Aye, sounds great. :-)
EonweValar (Eonwe Valar) has entered the room.
AriehnV: aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe :-)
EonweValar: Heya.
galdorandwe: Aiya
Iryenth has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Gilraen :-)
Iryenth: Aiya :-)
ArPharazon-V (ArPharazonV) has entered the room.
ArPharazon-V: Ah. Right. You don't get the hour changed yet.
ArPharazon-V: Aiya folks!
EonweValar: Heya :}
VardaValar1: Aye, the politicians decided to set it like this, no one else, heh.
AriehnV: pfft the latest has that the politicians wanted to give the uk the same time as the rest of europe
AriehnV: but the scots protested against it .. we are so far north it wouldnt get light until 9. 00 am
VardaValar1: heh
Eomer-V (dudeman51983) has entered the room.
VardaValar1: We have at least one state that refuses to do Daylight Savings Time. With luck, more will go the same way.
AriehnV: hallo and welcome to the valarguild chatroom
VardaValar1: Eomer, aiya!
AriehnV: och thats u ^^
AriehnV: aiya  Eomer
Eomer-V: Aiya All
ArPharazon-V: You know.. if you actually refuse to do the daylight savings time, it'd mean the meeting starts an hour later during all the summer, midnight for me
VardaValar1: The people for whom this meeting is in daylight tend not to show up, so it seems as if there is no good time.
AriehnV: nah its just that they wanted to put the hour later so that the uk is on the same time zone
AriehnV: but it doesnt quite work out
AriehnV: would also throw the growing rhythm of plants
VardaValar1: Plants have their time to grow no matter how politics of that day are going.
EonweValar: Everyone ready to beginning the meeting?
VardaValar1: Aye aye
AriehnV: ah well theyd get harvested a bit later
ArPharazon-V: So when exactly does your daylight saving stop for this year in the US?
ArPharazon-V: When can I go back to my normal meeting starting time? :)
Iryenth: next weekend, I think
VardaValar1: I can go downstairs and see if it says on the calendar while Eonwe handles the meeting. Fire it up, Eonwe!
EonweValar: Here we go :}

EonweValar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
EonweValar: Membership:
EonweValar: Daylight Savings Time has ended obviously for our Europena members :}
VardaValar1: (Sunday Nov 6 DST ends in the USA)
EonweValar: And it ends on my Guild Anniversary for the USA :}
VardaValar1: Grats! Great way to celebrate!
ArPharazon-V: You can celebrate for another hour ;)
EonweValar: hehe :}
EonweValar: Any other Membership news?
VardaValar1: yes
EonweValar: Go ahead.
VardaValar1: Today is the 1 year wedding anniversary for Eowyn and Schlep.
ArPharazon-V: Grats!
AriehnV: wooho :-D grats
Eomer-V: hear hear!
EonweValar: Happy Anniversary to the happy couple :}
VardaValar1: Today Fangorn, Meriadoc, Elwing, Sauron, Bilbo, and Varda phoned them and sang Happy Anniversary.
AriehnV: hehe nice
ArPharazon-V: That's a song?
VardaValar1: We're back from the Texas RenFaire where we had much fun and merriment.
VardaValar1: Sung by us one might well ask. ;-)
VardaValar1: That's all my news.
EonweValar: Thanks Varda :}
EonweValar: Any other Membership news before we move on to Web?
VardaValar1: kind of
VardaValar1: We're coming up to that time when I need to start checking to see which members will go on the 2012 membership roster.
VardaValar1: Also considering strongly moving all Tolkien onlies to just being on the credits, not on the main membership list.
VardaValar1: Anyone coming to meetings is considered active, so all of you are on the 2012 list. :-)
EonweValar: Yay :}
VardaValar1: That's it from me, unless there are suggestions, comments, protests against removing Tolkien-onlies?
EonweValar: Would there be any repercussions of this that Tolkien-Onlies should be aware of?
VardaValar1: (Partly a move to make it easier for programming.)
VardaValar1: I'm doing it because there is so little attention paid to what's going on by Tolkien-onlies, including anniversaries, etc. So they can just send in as they please as they do anyway.
EonweValar: ok
VardaValar1: Don't have to worry about doing a yearly item to stay on the list.
VardaValar1: Just be on the contributors and have their stuff up and that's it. Not sure they need a T honor anymore though, so that could be a repercussion.
VardaValar1: Don't think they'll notice.
EonweValar: Well if any Tolkien-Onlies read the Meeting minutes, here's their chance to notice and e-mail you :}
EonweValar (Eonwe Valar) has left the room.
VardaValar1: They are still on the Contributors' page, and on each of the Tolkien site section pages such as articles, stories, poetry, art...
VardaValar1: oops, and there crashed Eonwe.
VardaValar1: Does anyone else have an opinion one way or another?
VardaValar1: If not, we'll move on.
EonweValar (Eonwe Valar) has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Welcome back. That was quick. :-)
EonweValar: Thanks :}
EonweValar: Web:
EonweValar: Nothing on my behalf at the moment.
VardaValar1: Nothing sent to the Tolkien Site. The anniversary contributions close after October 31.
EonweValar: OK, so if anyone hasn't sent in something for the Anniversary and plans to, you've got today and tomorrow to get it in.
VardaValar1: Or send a note saying you're working on something.
EonweValar: Gaming:

EonweValar: WoW:
EonweValar: Hallow's End coming to a close Monday night as well.
EonweValar: Get your last 2 runs in if you can, and good luck getting what you're going for.
EonweValar: Lothar:
EonweValar: Sunday Run:
EonweValar: Last Sunday's run was cancelled due to lack of enough people to have a run.
EonweValar: Friday Run: Everyone came in late and at different times, so we didn't have a run. Fangorn, Elwing, Sauron, and Eonwë were around.
VardaValar1: I came in late too.
VardaValar1: Just after you left, they said.
EonweValar: Tonight's run, should we have enough, is probably going to be a pretty simple one: Hit to Headless Horseman 7 times for the daily and for the quick guild exp.
EonweValar: *Hit the
EonweValar: LotRO:
EonweValar: LotRO's Halloween-type festival is probably drawing to a close as well.
VardaValar1: We still have time left on the LotRO festival.
VardaValar1: A nifty thing to know is that if we try the item emotes in  a raid group, they give credit for the deed to all in the raid, and that goes towards eventually getting the permanent emote.
VardaValar1: Lotteries are going strong again, kinks worked out of the forum mostly.
VardaValar1: Monday [note: Wednesday] instance was for the special Superior 4th Marks and instance marks. Great Barrow: Thadur.
VardaValar1: We had a nice turn-out, so many that I had to bow out as I'd have been the third hunter.
VardaValar1: Ones going were Galdor, Gildor, Indis, Nimrodel, Pippin, and Ulmo.
VardaValar1: Scratch the Monday on that and put Wednesday. /desktop
VardaValar1: Monday was the same run except different on a few of the people.
VardaValar1: Cirdan, Gildor, Indis, Melkor, Nimrodel, Pippin, and Varda.
VardaValar1: Saturday was the big 12-man raid night, going off quite well.
VardaValar1: The instances were Defence of the Prancing Pony, Tuckborough, and Stand at Amon Sul.
VardaValar1: Pippin won the Worn Symbol of Celebrimbor this week.
VardaValar1: People who got to to go were Cirdan, Gildor, Hurin, Indis, Irmo, Miriel, Melkor, Nimrodel, Pippin, Ulmo, and Galdor in a later run.
VardaValar1: We had help to fill in the spots from the kins PLOI and from Tuatha de Danann. They were Anrisa and Eladion.
VardaValar1: That's my report. Does anyone else have an addition or correction?
VardaValar1: If not, I turn the floor back to Eonwe.
EonweValar: Thanks Varda.

EonweValar: Any other gaming done this week? Any other gaming news?
VardaValar1: StarCraft 2 by Bilbo and Sauron.
VardaValar1: BroodWar by Fangorn, Sauron, and Varda.
ArPharazon-V: More flashgames, including a simple but reflex-heavy game called Man in Gap, where you have to avoid the ceiling plunging down to you ;)
ArPharazon-V: finding link
ArPharazon-V: Well, not that reflex-heavy. But it takes a bit of practice.
ArPharazon-V: is the one I played, but the game is hosted on a ton of other sites as well
ArPharazon-V: No others that really need mentioning, though.
EonweValar: Any other business before we move to Tolkien?
ArPharazon-V: We already mentioned all the Blizzcon stuff last week, right?
EonweValar: More or less.

EonweValar: OK, on to Tolkien then.
EonweValar: Tonight you get a topic from me, so cringe or celebrate as is your wont :}
EonweValar: Since it is around Halloween, I thought it might be interesting to examine the mythological creatures appearing in Tolkien's, and how they differ or emulate their counterparts in real world myths, both historical and contemporary.
EonweValar: For example, we're told Thuringwethil was a vampire.
VardaValar1: Werewolves (and werebears/berserkers) and vampires.
ArPharazon-V: Now it's been a while, but I was more under the impression that she was a vampire bat or something, and I was more reminded of a gargoyle.
VardaValar1: We weren't told much about Thuringwethil other than that she had a bat-fell that Luthien was able to take away and wear.
VardaValar1: Kind of like a were-bat, since old style werewolves of Nordic times wore a wolf skin to change. Swan women wore a feathered swan skin.
VardaValar1: We weren't told about her diet.
VardaValar1: It was inferred with the vampire comment though. : )
VardaValar1: Since a gargoyle was a stone guardian, how was she like a gargoyle? Lost me there.
ArPharazon-V (ArPharazonV) has left the room.
EonweValar: Of Thuringwethil: "She... was wont to fly in vampire's form to Angband."
EonweValar: Of Beren and Luthien page 178 in my Houghton Mifflin Hardback.
ArPharazon-V (ArPharazonV) has entered the room.
ArPharazon-V: Third time today internet gave out on me.
VardaValar1: She can fly!
ArPharazon-V: Anyway, last thing I saw was you asking about gargoyles?
ArPharazon-V: What did I miss?
VardaValar1: Ouch Phar. I'll save what went on earlier.
EonweValar: Eonwe Valar (5:03:46 PM): Of Thuringwethil: "She... was wont to fly in vampire's form to Angband."
Eonwe Valar (5:04:14 PM): Of Beren and Luthien page 178 in my Houghton Mifflin Hardback.
ArPharazon-V: I did save too, but only up to you asking about resemblance to gargoyles. Could you post anything after that, or including that to be complete?
ArPharazon-V: Allright, thanks.
ArPharazon-V: Anyway, I was trying to say that gargoyles have always reminded me of bats, in shape, or more of bat-people. So that's why she reminded me of a gargoyle more than an actual vampire.
EonweValar: Granted that could easily be short for "vampire bat" since they were just talking about her "bat-fell", but it does imply a frame of reference for a vampire within Ea.
VardaValar1: (Side-note - 4 Hobbit actors got together 10 years later:  )
ArPharazon-V: I did save too, but only up to you asking about resemblance to gargoyles. Could you post anything after that, or including that to be complete?
ArPharazon-V: Did I vanish again, or is it just quiet?
VardaValar1: It's quiet
AriehnV: et by the bat
VardaValar1: Possibly looking at the url.
AriehnV: aye looked at the pic
Eomer-V: Are they reuniting to shoot scenes for The Hobbit?
ArPharazon-V: Hah. They really do look so much older in that picture/video..
VardaValar1: Likely
VardaValar1: The trailer makes them look better, when they're moving.
VardaValar1: Sorry about the derailment
AriehnV: still recognisable though
ArPharazon-V: Oh, yes, definitely.
EonweValar: OK, so nothing on vampires for the topic. What about werewolves? Do we have any reason to believe a weapon of silver would hold any greater power against, say, Draugluin, than a weapon of any other metal?
VardaValar1: Do we know if there were silver weaons, or maybe silvering on elven weapons?
Eomer-V: I would imagine something of Elf make would be more damaging though there is no reall indication
AriehnV: hmm , there is no such mention i think but as closest i can think of is that blade that Merry wielded against the Captain of the Nazgul, no other blade would have worked against him and not if the hobbit had been a bit taller
VardaValar1: Runes maybe, Eomer? And well-constructed. Like Froro's Westernesse sword causing the troll damage when the Gondorian sword did not.
AriehnV: and Mithril glowed when orcs were near
VardaValar1: *Frodo's
Eomer-V: as did Sting
VardaValar1: Sting glowed. Anduril had both flame and cold
EonweValar: Mithril itself didn't glow.
VardaValar1: The Westernesse weapons were noticeably stronger, and they learned from elves, maybe dwarves too.
EonweValar: The glow of Sting and Glamdring should be attributed to an elven craft, perhaps lost or rare by the Third Age.
ArPharazon-V: Swords from Gondolin, both, right?
ArPharazon-V: As well as.. what was its name.. Orcrist?
EonweValar: Aye.
VardaValar1: Aye, Orcrist
EonweValar: In the line of werewolf mythology, it should be noted that Beren was bitten by Carcharoth, and he didn't turn into a werewolf, so it's probably safe to say a man can't become a werewolf.
VardaValar1: Not by a bite, anyway. But by wearing a skin.
EonweValar: Well "looking like" one and "being" one are two different things.
VardaValar1: Beorn was a kind of were-bear, seemed to be in his genes and passed on to his offspring.
ArPharazon-V: No connections to the full moon,anyway.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: Dragons are all over mythology, maybe due to finding old dinosaur bones. How were they handled in Tolkien's works?
AriehnV: evil , bad , big, greedy , cunning , deceiving
ArPharazon-V: First dragons were wingless. That was a nice touch.
VardaValar1: No nice dragons that the good guys can ride. :-)   They're all evil, aye.
ArPharazon-V: Also, remember that in the Book of Lost Tales they were artificial, metal monsters, which, if I recall, actually provided a means of transportation for Orcs?
ArPharazon-V: or am I confusing things now?
AriehnV: metal proto drakes ^^
VardaValar1: Original idea was vs industrialism, in that they were mechanical. That was dropped for bred/corrupted creatures becoming more and more dangerous, until we hit the ultimate Ancalagon the Black, a gigantic flying dragon.
EonweValar: No, that was in the Fall of Gondolin in BoLT, so you're right.
VardaValar1: You're right, Phar.
ArPharazon-V: Right, just wasn't sure about the transportation part.
VardaValar1: They were metal transportation and weapons, heaping up to get higher than the walls.
VardaValar1: Orcs rode inside. Think the lesser version of balrogs from that time rode on top?
EonweValar: Sounds about right.
VardaValar1: Smaug came from that later type of flying dragons. They did seem fond of hoarding valuable things, as in other myths.
ArPharazon-V: If Tolkien had kept the idea of mechanical dragons, The Hobbit could have been quite interesting :P
VardaValar1: Glaurung was about as scary as one could get. Talking, cunning, evil, powerful like Arien mentioned.
VardaValar1: Very scary for a dragon with no wings.
VardaValar1: So Bilbo would have been up against a mechancal dragon?
ArPharazon-V: Ultimately, the lack of wings was his weak point.. if only he'd flown over that ravine :)
VardaValar1: Would it have any intelligence or have been operated by someone?
ArPharazon-V: And yeah, that's what I meant!
ArPharazon-V: Well, not sure if the ones in Gondolin had any intelligence of their own.
VardaValar1: Aye Phar! That would have been a problem.
ArPharazon-V: But a sentient, intelligent mechanical dragon could have been quite a story.
VardaValar1: Your what-if bit, for the Hobbit. We don't know if someone was driving the Gondolin mechanical dragons or moved by Morgoth's or Sauron's will.
VardaValar1: The weakness is this unoiled, rusty spot. :-)
ArPharazon-V: Well, I mean, if the Gondoling dragons were intelligent, so would Smaug have been.
ArPharazon-V: *Gondolin
EonweValar: I could revert to overused cliche that a living creature is just a biological machine :}
VardaValar1: heh, you could.
ArPharazon-V: Or we could not confuse the matter and just say that when we say mechanical, we mean a metal, artificially put together construct.
ArPharazon-V: The latter part of which is probably redundant.
VardaValar1: Aye, the industrial horror that JRRT was unhappy about.
EonweValar: Aye, which is why I say the biological machine thing is overused :}
VardaValar1: Showing again in Saruman's mind of metal and wheels, meaning his preference for that over the natural things.
VardaValar1: Magical objects often show up in mythology.
ArPharazon-V: Did we ever see him use a wheel?
EonweValar: Evil couldn't create new living things anyway, they had to corrupt and twist what was already there to their uses.
ArPharazon-V: Well, a waterwheel, I guess?
VardaValar1: Possibly the wheels referred to cogwheels and pulleys?
VardaValar1: Cartwheels. : )
AriehnV: ooh thats just as bad that most "personell departments" are now "Human Resources"
AriehnV: just depersonalise us .. preciouss .. ^^
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazon-V: Human Resources sounds so bad, since I always equate the term "resource" with videogames
ArPharazon-V: Must mine more humans!
VardaValar1: Morgoth and Sauron dehumanized, de-individualized their followers, making them part of a kind of machine that followed their exact commands, no freedom of thought to speak of.
VardaValar1: Aye Phar : )
EonweValar: Any other mythological creatures in Tolkien we can pick on?
VardaValar1: Walking trees? Trying to think where else they were used.
ArPharazon-V: Elves, Trolls, Dwarves? ;)
EonweValar: You mean Elves aren't real? Then who keeps stealing my cookies and repairing my shoes? :} (I kid :})
ArPharazon-V: goblins..
VardaValar1: The High Elves of mythology fit pretty well with Tolkien's elves. They were sometimes believed to have no souls though.
EonweValar: Which coincides with early thoughts of Dwarves in Tolkien's works.
ArPharazon-V: An Elf without a fea? That'd be something.
VardaValar1: They tended to be mischievous rather than evil.
EonweValar: Well, this seems like a good place to bang the gavel.
VardaValar1: Creatures of mythology, whether sentient or not, tended to have some reason for being mentioned, such as why something weird occurred, or a way of telling a point.
VardaValar1: Fangorn says hi.
ArPharazon-V: hi!
EonweValar: Heya to Fangorn :}
AriehnV: hi Fangorn :-)
galdorandwe has left the room.
EonweValar: OK, let's bang the gavel here and let everyone go about their business, or continue the discussion into Aftermeeting :}
EonweValar: *bangs gavel*

VardaValar1: It's about time for the WoW run.
VardaValar1: We should have enough people tonight.
ArPharazon-V (ArPharazonV) has left the room.
ArPharazon-V (ArPharazonV) has entered the room.
ArPharazon-V: Allright. Last I saw was.. Galdor's exit message, I think.
ArPharazon-V: What did I miss this tme?
ArPharazon-V: *time
EonweValar: Nothing much. Just banging the gavel.
ArPharazon-V: Varda's copying the text, it seems. Hopefully that should clarify some things for me.
VardaValar1: Message too long, trying to make it clear.
ArPharazon-V: Just do it in parts.
VardaValar1: done, it was not happy about letting me delete the old one. Had to do it in bits of delete.
karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis
VardaValar1: Meeting's over. Hope things are going well for you. :-)
karakedi25: Apologies: I overslept (what was supposed to be a short nap).
VardaValar1: hehe - understood
karakedi25: but I needed it
ArPharazon-V (ArPharazonV) has left the room.
karakedi25: anyway, what did I miss?
ArPharazon-V (ArPharazonV) has entered the room.
ArPharazon-V: Aiya
karakedi25: In any case, I wanted to make my apologies for missing the meeting.
VardaValar1: Chat was on mythological creatures in Tolkien's works.
karakedi25: aiya
VardaValar1: We just barely touched on it.
VardaValar1: WoW group is now forming.
VardaValar1: Namarie!
karakedi25: ok, enjoy
ArPharazon-V: Aye, enjoy!
ArPharazon-V: and I'm going to have to really rely on your transcript, varda
karakedi25: same here
ArPharazon-V: since I only got two pieces, as well as what I might save now.
karakedi25: did anyone report on the success of yesterday's skirmish raid run?
VardaValar1: Glad to help. It's why we have transcripts, to help us see what we missed. :-)
VardaValar1: yes
VardaValar1: The report is on the News as well.
karakedi25: good. It went splendidly
VardaValar1: Good that you got to go. :-)
karakedi25: I think everyone had fun, so I expect they will continue.
VardaValar1: Yes, they will continue, no worries.
VardaValar1: Namarie for now.
karakedi25: Namarie