November 27, 2011 Sunday Meeting
5pm EDT (GMT - 5)
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AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
Transcript work by Ar-Pharazon and Varda.
AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar, Glorfindel VG, and VardaValar1 (presiding)
Topic: How Tolkien's ideals showed up in his writing.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1: Aiya to Ar-Pharazon the Golden and all-around nifty guy!
VardaValar1: Invites have been sent.
VardaValar1: Are you playing WoW or maybe flashgames? :-)
ArPharazonV: Flashgames! Something called Nob War: The Elves.
ArPharazonV: upgrade your elven army and storm a bunch of castles
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
Eonwe Valar: Interestingly, it wouldn't let me in when I sent my round of invites.
VardaValar1: hehe, was about to start up with Phar and me
VardaValar1: hmm, maybe because mine were already out?
VardaValar1: Some kind of blocking?
VardaValar1: Not nice.
VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: We have been having lots of traveling and visiting in the
guild, so some could play more and some much less. Been crazy on the
schedules, but good to be with family.
VardaValar1: Indis had so much trouble with her laptop traveling that
she's seriously considering a new laptop, so we can expect super-Indis
before long. :-)
VardaValar1: Any Membership news from you two? :-)
Eonwe Valar: Nothing from me.
VardaValar1: No news here, seeing some more on the works in progress in the Story area.
VardaValar1: From what Phar said earlier:
VardaValar1: ArPharazon-V: Flashgames! Something called Nob War: The Elves. ArPharazon-V: upgrade your elven army and storm a bunch of castles
VardaValar1: Sounded fun. That's what he's up to right now.
VardaValar1: BroodWar with Fangorn, Sauron, and Varda
ArPharazonV: http://www.upgradegames.org/game/4/Nob-War-The-Elves.html if you want to know the link
VardaValar1: Thanks! Might give it a shot.
ArPharazonV: only found it like.. half an hour ago, so can't say too much yet
VardaValar1: Gimli and Sauron are together in a beta that we can't tell about yet.
VardaValar1: Bilbo's been trying out DC Universe and seems to be enjoying it a lot so far.
VardaValar1: Any other non-WoW, non-LotRO news?
ArPharazonV: Just more flashgames :-)
VardaValar1: Any you'd recommend not yet recommended? : )
ArPharazonV: Nah, nothing special.
VardaValar1: This weekend is a short run for Harvest Festival, not sure why. I expect Dev experimentation, but fun for those of us trying it.
VardaValar1: This week in LotRO has been mostly a lot of impulse runs,
some pretty big like one that was going on this afternoon.
VardaValar1: Monday we didn't have enough for a 6-man at first, so three of us ran lowbies with the new member, Hamson, had a good time.
VardaValar1: Then more people started showing up and some small runs happened, and lot of solo and small groups.
VardaValar1: Wednesday I wasn't present except a few minutes about half an hour late to say hi. Lots were on but I don't know if any groups formed up.
VardaValar1: Saturday we were lower on people than usual, but had enough to group.
VardaValar1: We did the 6-man Prancing Pony skirmish, then more people showed up.
VardaValar1: Then we did a 12-man Breaching the Necromancer's Gate skirmish.
VardaValar1: After that were at least three groups I know of and
probably more that did the pair of 3-mans "School" and "Library".
VardaValar1: It seemed to keep going and going and...
VardaValar1: On to WoW:
VardaValar1: Eonwe, would you like to give a report?
Eonwe Valar: Sure.
Eonwe Valar: Last Sunday we
didn't have enough to head back in to ICC, so I let the raid lockout
lapse for good this time. Instead, we went into Molten Core to pick up
some extra rep with the 7th Anniversary buff, then did a random Heroic
and ended up in Blackrock Caverns.
Eonwe Valar: Participants: Eonwe, Varda, Fangorn, BIlbo, Arien (for MC
and up to second boss of BRC), Sauron, (for second boss and after).
Eonwe Valar: Friday: I unfortunately missed this week's fun, so don't know what went on.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Eonwe Valar: Friday: I unfortunately missed this week's fun, so don't know what went on. is last thing I saw
ArPharazonV: Can someone repost the rest?
VardaValar1: EonweValar: Also, Pilgrim's Bounty is over, so I hope you
all got your cooking skilled up as fast as you could. EonweValar: The
Feast of Winterveil will be in about 2 weeks, give or take.EonweValar:
We should have patch 4.3 by then too. EonweValar: That's it from
me. VardaValar1: I went outside and asked Fangorn. (Proper place for a
tree!) He said on Friday the people he remembers showing up were
himself, Elwing, and me. VardaValar1: Bilbo and Sauron have been in WoW
during the week, as have others
VardaValar1: ugh, the spaces.
ArPharazonV: that the lot?
VardaValar1: Phar, did you have more to add about the patch or other WoW stuff going on with you?
VardaValar1: Aye, that's the lot.
ArPharazonV: Allright, I want to add that it's quite likely that the
patch will come this week, since they've already done the patch-intro
in the blogsites, and other signs.
ArPharazonV: So I hope you're all prepared for the patch, gathered your
transmogrification gear, saved money for Void Storage, etc ;-)
ArPharazonV: as for personal stuff... nothing new this week, I guess,
bought another rare pattern, did much archeology, but it wasn't
VardaValar1: Some of our runs have been for transmogrification (cosmetic) gear lately. : )
ArPharazonV: good, good
VardaValar1: Bet it beat mine. Must get over level 1 in Archaeology. hehe
ArPharazonV: Bunch of junk, no rares, few keystones. Best thing was a
200g kraken tentacle, but I'd rather have a rare artefact any day.
VardaValar1: Especially nice to have to get dungeon buffs.
ArPharazonV: Yeah, keystones are good for that too.
ArPharazonV: It's why I'm a bit careful with using them on artefacts.
VardaValar1: None of us were high enought for the buffs in Archaelogy last few runs.
VardaValar1: Good to know, thanks. I may just go on some Digs. ^^
ArPharazonV: Enjoy :-) it's most fun at the start when there's still so much to accomplish in achievements and normal artefacts.
ArPharazonV: At the point where I am, it's quite boring.
Eonwe Valar: I have 525 Archaeology, I just don't carry keystones
around with me, and haven't done any Archaeology since I got my turtle
VardaValar1: o well
VardaValar1: We had some stones in the dungeons that said they required
high levels for Archaeology. Do they require keystones, not just a
ArPharazonV: keystones, I think
Eonwe Valar: They require a keystone, aye, usually related in some way to the dungeon.
VardaValar1: Do keystones bind on acquire?
VardaValar1: Sounds like a lot of inventory space, if doing random dungeons.
Eonwe Valar: I.E., I believe I needed a Dwarf keystone for the one in BRC last week.
Eonwe Valar: They're BoE.
ArPharazonV: they're not bind on pickup, no, and can go for heavy prices in the auction house.
ArPharazonV: And yes, the only thing in dungeons for archeology you
don't need keystones for, is summoning the extra boss in Zul'Gurub.
VardaValar1: So maybe we could split a batch for inventory purposes and hand them to the high guy as needed?
Eonwe Valar: Er, not BoE, just non-binding.
Eonwe Valar: It's an idea, if anyone had enough of them to need to split them up like that.
VardaValar1: If we all got into Archaeology, we might have enough to pass around?
VardaValar1: If they're insanely hard to get, probably no problem on storage. heh
Eonwe Valar: Not insanely hard, just very much luck of the draw.
ArPharazonV: to be honest, I'm not sure why so many people seem to neglect levelling their archeology
VardaValar1: I didn't realize it helped buff us in dungeons until recently.
ArPharazonV: it's a lot of fun, I thought, especially the levelling up
and collecting normal artefacts, and later on using the rares, and
getting to max level is quite easy in the end
Eonwe Valar: Because it takes alot of travelling that's best done with a flying mount at lvl 60+, hehe.
VardaValar1: Ok, convinced. Going on some Digs. :-)
ArPharazonV: It's after that that things get hard, but you don't need that for the dungeons
ArPharazonV: True. You'd better have a good mount for it. But when you have that...
VardaValar1: Aye, no excuse then. Just knowing it's a good idea.
Eonwe Valar: Other than that, Archaeology is very random as to what you get and about as exciting as old fishing used to be.
ArPharazonV: Well, the first round of normal artefacts for a race is
not that random. You only get one of each until you have all of them.
ArPharazonV: The most random part of it is actually getting the rares or the keystones.
ArPharazonV: And skilling is very reliable as well. Like fishing.
VardaValar1: On to Tolkien!
VardaValar1: One of the things that attracted me to read all of the
long stuff was the ideals of the writer that showed through in all of
VardaValar1: Good is not one thing for Men and another for Elves or Dwarves.
VardaValar1: Eru had a constant value for good all across the creation.
VardaValar1: This is one reason that people who enjoy Tolkien's works
tend to get along, I suspect. They admire a lot of similar ideals.
VardaValar1: What are a few, and an exampe of them?
Eonwe Valar: Aye, something hard to justify for a Human doesn't immediately become easier to justify for an Elf, or even a Vala.
ArPharazonV: Dunno, Men tend to have less trouble with Kinslaying...
VardaValar1: In old folklore, Elves had no souls and thus had no real
morals. They tended to be tricksters but neither good nor evil. In
Tolkien's mythology, they were quite different.
VardaValar1: Aye, Men do, heh.
VardaValar1: The Men also saw it as wrong, although they did do it.
VardaValar1: Maybe the frequent replacement of their numbers and short
lifespans made them have less value for life? Seems kind of backwards.
Eonwe Valar: The most blatant example in LotR would be the use of the
Ring against Sauron. Some would call that "Fighting fire with fire."
The Wise in Middle-Earth knew all that would do is replace the Dark
Lord with another Dark Lord, that both the Means and the Ends must be
VardaValar1: True. It took the Wise to overrule that use.
VardaValar1: Boromir was not alone in his attitude. It seemed logical to many who believed they had the necessary willpower.
VardaValar1: Drop one Dark Lord for another, one less even less
knowledgeable about such power, and it just goes downhill. At least for
Sauron that power actually belonged to him.
Eonwe Valar: It seems evident Denethor had given it some thought as well.
Glorfindel VG has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aye. He wanted a "mighty gift", and believed Boromir would
have brought it to him. As if Boromir would not have taken it for
VardaValar1: Aiya Glorfindel. :-)
Glorfindel VG: Aiya, sorry to be late.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Glorfindel.
VardaValar1: Good to see you! Most didn't manage to show at all, hehe.
Glorfindel VG: :-)
ArPharazonV: All too confident in their own willpower. Nature of men, I suppose.
VardaValar1: Hope you had a good Thanksgiving. : )
VardaValar1: Aye, a human viewpoint tends to be with that person as the
center of the universe. Getting away from that viewpoint is when they
can begin to journey towards Wise. : )
VardaValar1: Saruman seems to have lost his way there.
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien :-)
AriehnV: aiya ooph
AriehnV: sorry for the late arrival got stuck in zul aman
VardaValar1: Topic in short:
AriehnV: was a bit longer than thought or intended
VardaValar1: VardaValar1: This is one reason that people who enjoy
Tolkien's works tend to get along, I suspect. They admire a lot of
similar ideals.VardaValar1: What are a few, and an exampe of them?
VardaValar1: Heh, that's both the quality and the example in one word. How Oromesque. :-)
AriehnV: across cultural borders , so tolerance , courage
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: They went beyond tolerance into caring what happened to each other even long after the mission was completed.
AriehnV: loyalty and friendship :-)
VardaValar1: True. Boromir redeemed himself by displaying loyalty and
protection of those needing it against hopeless odds that meant his
VardaValar1: In the process, probably not thought out, he made them
look important, as if one was the Ringbearer, dragging an unintentional
red herring in front of the enemy.
ArPharazonV: Honorable in the end.
AriehnV: hmm that got both Sauron and Saruman sidetracked , hunting after Merry and Pippin after
VardaValar1: Aye, turned into an important act far beyond anything he might have intended.
VardaValar1: One good act can be amplified. : )
ArPharazonV: All of which couldn't have been done if Elrond had not allowed Merry and Pippin on the journey :-)
VardaValar1: So often we see evil being made stronger, so this was very cool.
AriehnV: Honor Redeemed .. i think thats something important coming out several times in the book
AriehnV: we got Boromir there, even Aragorn who took up his fate rather
reluctantly but finally did in having his sword remade .. that meant
accepting whatever else that drew after
Eonwe Valar: Reluctantly? After Elrond said to him "Only the King of
both Arnor and Gondor will marry my daughter" he started out the next
day toi make it happen.
VardaValar1: Aragorn's reluctance was in the movie, far as I could see.
In the books, he was driven by at least needing to become worthy of
AriehnV: Faramir did , because he thought it necessary in trying to
retake Osgiliath and returning gravely wounded (unfortunately it didnt
quite have the effect on Denethor it might have had otherwise)
Eonwe Valar: When Aragorn was told about his lineage, he also seemed to be quite proud of it, not burdened.
VardaValar1: Indis says Hi! She's in California and can't join the chat, but is able to do the side window.
ArPharazonV: Hi Indis!
AriehnV: say hi back , hi Indis
Eonwe Valar: Heya to Indis.
ArPharazonV: afk a few minutes
Eonwe Valar: Aragorn was already doing "great deeds" at the age of 20.
VardaValar1: That would be really young for a Numenorean bloodline.
AriehnV: ok take Aragorn out then of this line
Eonwe Valar: Elrond told him his lineage, and "the next day at the hour
of sunset Aragorn walked alon in the woods, nad his heart was high
within him; and he sang, for he was full of hope and the world was
Eonwe Valar: Got my book out to give that little quote :}
VardaValar1: Faramir in the book did not try to take the Ring to Denethor.
VardaValar1: That was purely movie.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Faramir was a wiser man than the movie made him out to be.
AriehnV: okay i ve said nothing
VardaValar1: PJ was wanting more conflict.
VardaValar1: For all of us, the movie affected our memories somewhat. A good reason to make us re-read!
Eonwe Valar: It's easy to get memories of other versions mixed up in one's head.
VardaValar1: The movies have the powerful visuals and music too.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: I run into this all the time during entry tests. People
have to cudgel their brains to get it right sometimes, with the movie
overwrite fighting memory.
VardaValar1: Kind of wish schools wouldn't use movies to "help" kids learn books. It gives them so much misinformation.
VardaValar1: but back to Tolkien :-)
Eonwe Valar: Well, depends on the accuracy of the movie version.
VardaValar1: Loyalty. Sam was practically the personification as he
acted as Frodo's yeoman, then for the world as he took up the Ring
alone in Mordor when he thought Frodo to be dead.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Sam's a very good example of loyalty.
VardaValar1: Tell the kids to read the books straight through and make
their own comments, compare notes, and hear what the teacher was trying
to show them.
VardaValar1: What other examples of loyalty did we see?
Eonwe Valar: We see divided loyalties in the Dead Men of Dunharrow, and also in Gollum.
VardaValar1: Aye, the lack of loyalty had terrible consequences.
Eonwe Valar: We see a good example of loyalty in Sauron, if we consider he was only loyal to himself, and maybe Morgoth, heh.
VardaValar1: Means of bringing about loyalty were different on the sides of good and evil. Evil used seduction, lies, force.
VardaValar1: Sauron did serve Morgoth loyally while he was in Arda, and continued his teachings after he was gone.
VardaValar1: Sauron had once been a Maia of Aule, not starting out evil either. He learned a lot from the good side first.
VardaValar1: Welcome back. : )
Eonwe Valar: Aye. "Nothing was evil in its beginning. Not even Sauron was so." :}
Eonwe Valar: And welcome back, Phr :}
Eonwe Valar: *Phar
ArPharazonV: There was a lot of loyalty among the Noldor. Even though
many recognized what Feanor and his sons had gotten themselves into
with their oath, they still followed him north.
VardaValar1: A lot of tangled loyalties in there.
VardaValar1: Yet one group after the Kinslaying decided that was enough
and went back. That was another form of loyalty to ideals.
Eonwe Valar: Well, those following Fingolfin and Finarfin were
following those brothers more than Fëanor. It's just Fingolfin
made an oath he felt bound to keep, and followed Fëanor. Finarfin
of course went with his brother until he couldn't quiet his conscience
VardaValar1: It took courage to go back after being involved in the Kinslaying.
VardaValar1: Sticking with ideals takes courage and effort, not an easy path.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: "What is right is not always easy. What is easy is not always right." :}
VardaValar1: Yet Tolkien shows that such behavior is rewarded in the end.
VardaValar1: With all the tragedy, there is still the reward for doign good at the end.
VardaValar1: Being turned into a faint shadow of malice gibbering in the corner is not the fun way to end up.
Eonwe Valar: I would imagine not :}
Eonwe Valar: Some fates are indeed worse than death :}
ArPharazonV: Nor is being locked out of the door of night :-)
VardaValar1: Melkor, shoved out into the Void beyond the Doors of Night.
VardaValar1: Saruman ironically shared a similar fate with Sauron whom
he's been trying to emulate. Both lost their bodies, were denied the
West, and became barely existent spirits of malice.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, and neither are likely to be able to pull their minds off their failures long enough to nurse their wounds.
VardaValar1: Any other examples that the group would like to mention at this time? (There are a ton if we think about it.)
VardaValar1: If not, let's shift to After-meeting to let folks sleep who need to!
VardaValar1: RP for the next section could still use a good name. We had some ideas, but could use some better ones.
Eonwe Valar: I'll be posting this week a last call for ideas of names
for the next arc in the RP, then we'll pick the one that fits best. I
guess favorite by majoirty will be good enough, though unanimity would
be nice if we found a name *that* good, hehe.
VardaValar1: Eonwe, you were considering posting in the side-thread with a list of suggestions, where we culd add more?
Eonwe Valar: *majority
VardaValar1: This is a creative bunch. We should be able to come up with something fitting and nifty. : )
Eonwe Valar: Afk for a moment.
VardaValar1: So if you have an idea or a vote, check out the thread
this week and let's see if we can't get this new story arc going!
VardaValar1: Fangorn is on his new level 20 Warrior on WoW now. :-)
VardaValar1: Shall the Wowites go pop into Lothar server now? :-)
VardaValar1: er, just became 21. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Back.
Eonwe Valar: Had to make sure I got a share of the last of the broccoli-cheese casserole :}
AriehnV: yumm !
AriehnV: *steals a portion*
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Anyoen coming to WoW who isn't there already should start making their way here :}
Eonwe Valar: We're doing a lvl lvl alt run tonight, and the first 3 dungeons have been chosen :}
Eonwe Valar: Lvl lvl = low lvl
ArPharazonV: lvl is so nice, you had to say it twice
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Like the little Caesar's "Pizza! Pizza!" hehe.
ArPharazonV: Wouldn't know that. But I'm sure I got it from somewhere.
Glorfindel VG: lol. how old is that slogan?
Glorfindel VG: (i'll be joining wow in a little bit)
Glorfindel VG: working on a paper
VardaValar1: Paper comes first. :-)
Eonwe Valar: I need to log out and try to reduce my latency on WoW. For some reason it's red.
VardaValar1: I should log out too, really.
VardaValar1 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Take care, good night, sleep well, and have fun.
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
AriehnV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript