Valar Guild

May 15, 2011 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (5)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, VardaValar1 (presiding)

Meeting begins
    New Tolkien member: Firiel-(T)
    touhou 7.5 and the search for a readable English manual.
    RP: posting by Eonwe, more by others intended during the week.
    Varda's topic: Tolkien, known as a fantasy genre writer, also slipped into the horror genre in his well-known works. Where do we see that?
    Eonwe's topic, spin-off from the rp talk: Sensing magic.
After-meeting: none, meeting subjects ran all the way through.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1: Aiya Phar :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
ArPharazonV: Just playing some touhou 7.5 while we wait ;-)
VardaValar1: A bit of LotRO on the little farmer/cook.
VardaValar1: brb
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: aiya there
VardaValar1: back
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien :-)
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1: That's all the invitations I can see to send.

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: We have a new Tolkien member this week, Firiel-(T). :-)
VardaValar1: We've been emailing and she's very interested in the languages, poetry, and art.
VardaValar1: Any other membership news?

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: New poem: "The Isle of Thu" by Firiel-(T)
VardaValar1: It's about Luthien going after Beren to rescue him from imprisonment by Sauron.
VardaValar1: Any further web news?
VardaValar1: Eonwe's been doing a ton of coding, for which he has my thanks!
VardaValar1: It just isn't something the gang can see yet.

VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: Any non-LotRO, non-WoW gaming this past week?
ArPharazonV: Bit of Touhou, mainly.
VardaValar1: Fangorn and I played StarCraft/BroodWar together.
ArPharazonV: Now regularly on normal difficulty, so getting better, slowly ;-)
VardaValar1: Touhou, enjoying it?
VardaValar1: ahh, learning. Good.
ArPharazonV: Yep, I play various installments from 1 to 11 :-)
ArPharazonV: Just wish I could get my hands on an English translation of the manuals. Should be a lot of extra information in there I have a hard time figuring out now.
ArPharazonV: That's the trouble with Japanese games :-)
VardaValar1: Nothing online by a fan maybe? ouch
VardaValar1: I know you're a fine surfer, so it must have been neglected that way.
ArPharazonV: Well, there's an extensive wikia about the series, with transcripts of the manuals, but they don't read very easily.
VardaValar1: heh
VardaValar1: A serious challenge for you then.
karakedi25 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Eonwe, would you like to give the WoW report?
Eonwe Valar: Sure.
karakedi25: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis :-)
ArPharazonV: *nod* but fun!
ArPharazonV: Aiya Indis
Eonwe Valar: This Friday, Eonwe, Fangorn, Elwing, and Bilbo ran Stonecore for Fangorn. It was a quick, smooth run.
Eonwe Valar: Varda and Glorfindel were also on, working on their respective characters.
VardaValar1: (Varda hit 85)
ArPharazonV: Grats!
VardaValar1: =)
AriehnV: Grats :-)
Eonwe Valar: That concludes my report.
VardaValar1: Thanks, Eonwe. :-)
VardaValar1: Anything from the European front that you guys and gals want to mention?
AriehnV: Not Really , i moved my priest into a roleplaying guild that caught my eye while flying through shattrah
AriehnV: they also seem to be active and nice guys and waiting for a few more members before really starting , else they seem to be levelling doing heroics and old school raidibng
ArPharazonV: Nothing much here either. I could make a habit out of keeping you up to date with our raiding progress but I doubt anyone's interested.
AriehnV: raiding
VardaValar1: Mostly we'd like to hear Valarite news, aye. Helm ever recover?
VardaValar1: He was pretty sick.
AriehnV: aye sure he did , he is back to work last week, still a bit weak
AriehnV: i think he tore a muscle in his shoulder now somehow but his lung infeciton cleared
VardaValar1: Breathing is a good thing!
AriehnV: indeed :-)
AriehnV: he was fairly busy this weekend and has to catch up on his radio shows so i doubt he has much time in working on his article about Helm
AriehnV: but i think he ll get there soon
VardaValar1: Thanks Arien. Catch-up is always a bear.
VardaValar1: On to LotRO:
ArPharazonV: Smarter than the average bear.
VardaValar1: The Monday run was in Eregion aka Hollin, doing level 65 runs in the School and Library for Superior Third Marks and deeds, quests.
VardaValar1: The Wednesday run was in the Grand Stairs, clearing quests that had piled up on alts such as the Devoted, plus deeds and Moria medallions.
VardaValar1: Indis, did you have anything to add?
karakedi25: not of general interest. I've been doing some raiding with other groups.
VardaValar1: Aye, I hope they're teaching you well. :-)
karakedi25: I'm learning a lot, especially on my lore-master
karakedi25: tricks of playing the class
VardaValar1: Is there any further business, suggestions, or comments to complete the business section?
AriehnV: eh one short addition
AriehnV: Fangorns second Guardian grouped with my hunter for book 2, chapter five and so she could proceed to level 40
AriehnV: i think it was Fangorn anyway .. not sure, someone who has 2 guardians anyway, a level 42 [note: Pippin-(V) on guardian Faerus]
VardaValar1: Do you remember the name or a close guess?
VardaValar1: We can have fun trying to figure it out. : )
AriehnV: err no blank
VardaValar1: Okies, no worries.
VardaValar1: On to

VardaValar1: Tolkien!
VardaValar1: First off, all of us here are also in the rp.
VardaValar1: Who do we need to post next, or is it looking wide open?
ArPharazonV: Had Eonwe posted yet?
Eonwe Valar: My post is about ready, actually.
VardaValar1: Ah hah!
Eonwe Valar: It should go up soon, maybe even today.
VardaValar1: Do you expect to post tonight or should we wait til next week to respond?
Eonwe Valar: Afk for a quick sec, though.
VardaValar1: Ok, so probably no round robin posting tonight.
VardaValar1: Does anyone know if Menel will be posting anymore? He seems to have dropped off the map since meeting the new young lady.
ArPharazonV: Haven't seen him to ask :-)
VardaValar1: We may be looking around and find he's disappeared into the woods, just like an Avar. :-)
ArPharazonV: He often shows up late in the meeting though.
VardaValar1: A thought off the top of my head from looking at the new poem,
VardaValar1: Tolkien was one of the few who did early werewolf and even a form of vampire writing, even if it was mostly unpublished then.
ArPharazonV: Well, the legends have been around for a long time.
VardaValar1: He pretty well hit anything in the fantasy genre at some point. :-)
VardaValar1: Ghosts too.
VardaValar1: Aye, and he, a professor, wrote of them a little with his own take.
VardaValar1: That was a bit of slipping into what is considered the Horror genre, rather than his usual, which is generally considered Heroic Fantasy.
VardaValar1: Any examples of his dabbling in the Horror end that you folks would like to mention?
VardaValar1: (or writing rather than dabbling).
ArPharazonV: Well, the Nine...
ArPharazonV: Ghostlike, invisible, high-pitched screams, instilling fear
ArPharazonV: Like banshees on a horse.
VardaValar1: True.
VardaValar1: Wraiths are ghosts, so he used ghost horror as a major component. Banshees are a form of ghost too.
VardaValar1: Took very steady, trained horses to abide their presence.
ArPharazonV: And the Barrow Downs chapter, is worth mentioning.
VardaValar1: True. Ghosts, tombs, atmosphere.
ArPharazonV: Fog and shadow and getting lost and voices seemingly far away....
ArPharazonV: it was pretty creepy
VardaValar1: That very scary separation from each other, possession.
VardaValar1: A crawling arm. Talk about nightmarish.
VardaValar1: When the LotR movies first came out, many recommended not bringing very small children.
VardaValar1: Anyone think of a vampiric type?
karakedi25: Thuringwath
VardaValar1: Thuringwethil, aye!
karakedi25: sorry bad spelling from memory
VardaValar1: Nicely bested by Luthien. :-)
VardaValar1: If we can figure it out, good enough. We can work from there.
karakedi25: and skinned, right?
VardaValar1: It seemed to me, perhaps just my interpretation, that Luthien was using a pelt that Thuringwethil wore, like the old Siegfried, Sigurd wolf skins for shape changing.
VardaValar1: Didn't seem like they had time for actual skinning, but maybe if she wasn't being too picky about quality, she did.
ArPharazonV: So we know she was a skinner and a tailor? ;-)
karakedi25: to say nothing of a hairdresser
ArPharazonV: *grin* I was actually referring to Warcraft professions.
VardaValar1: We have those professions in LotRO as well. : )
ArPharazonV: including hairdressing? :-)
VardaValar1: That one isn't a profession, no. : )
karakedi25: not in a game, but it's something she did :-)
VardaValar1: That's even better. :-)
VardaValar1: We seem to all have diverted our attention elsewhere. Let's shift to After-meeting. :-)
VardaValar1: *bangs gavel*
VardaValar1: Free speech!
Eonwe Valar: back.
karakedi25: wb
ArPharazonV: Aiyata
Eonwe Valar: Hantalye.
Eonwe Valar: If I'm following the story well enough, I assume Meren still has the sword in question?
Eonwe Valar: I'm jumping back to the RP, in case I lost anyone with that.
karakedi25: yes, she does, I believe. Fainan didn't want to touch it.
karakedi25: Has Auros had a chance to look at it yet?
ArPharazonV: Actually, I have it now.
ArPharazonV: It's lying in front of me, while Meren went to talk to Frali and Fainan to Auros.
VardaValar1: Aye, Fainan doesn't want to touch it.
ArPharazonV: I took that opportunity to take a closer look at it.
VardaValar1: Brings up some nasty memories.
Eonwe Valar: Makes sense that Meren wouldn't walk back over to Frali with it.
Eonwe Valar: Of course, now I wonder if Auros is going to trust Calion with it :}
ArPharazonV: Oh, I'm not even touching it. Just looked at it and now waiting until you come and look at it with Fainan.
VardaValar1: Fainan considers herself just a scout, not one of the nobles. The buck may stop here for nobles.
ArPharazonV: Calion should probably tell Fainan and Auros what he discovered as they come back. Wasn't sure how to work that in until Auros' reaction.
Eonwe Valar: I'd also considered how Auros should react to bringing this thing to Rivendell, but if Elrond won't shrug at hiding Sauron's Ring for a couple of months while a course is decided, I don't think too much short of Morgoth's personal effects are going to concern him, hehe.
ArPharazonV: Oh, there's one aspect of my post that I'd like to discuss.
karakedi25: you have a point there...I was wondering if he'd say 'keep that thing out of my valley'
ArPharazonV: This sword, we got from a scout, or some lowly orc soldier or something.
ArPharazonV: It can't be too unique, then.
Eonwe Valar: Actually, one thing orcs *could* make well was weapons.
ArPharazonV: So I had it pretty much mass-produced and mass-inscribed with the sorcerer activating the runes in bulk, or something.
Eonwe Valar: Saruman may have mass-produced the armaments for his orcs, but we're dealing with "free" orcs.
ArPharazonV: Yes, but still, they'd need a lot of weapons.
VardaValar1: Seems like Elrond would want to know any device of the enemy. Just don't bring him a big stack. :-)
ArPharazonV: So this particular sword is probably one of many, many swords.
Eonwe Valar: There's resources in the Misty Mountains, and presumably in the mountains of Mordor, to make metal weapons.
Eonwe Valar: Er, mountains of Mirkwood.
ArPharazonV: Aye, just thought I'd point it out, that it can't be as unique as the One Ring, or even as rare as the Rings of Power :-)
VardaValar1: Good point
ArPharazonV: Otherwise, how would that one orc have had it?
Eonwe Valar: Orcs near/from Mordor might be outfitted by Sauron. Orcs bands furtheraway would have to make due with what they have.
karakedi25: unless of course he looted it from a fallen officer
VardaValar1: Would they just be used in the Mirkwood area or others as well?
Eonwe Valar: Something in my upcoming post may cover that, Phar :}
Eonwe Valar: Sort of.
VardaValar1: If this is supposed to tie in with our Angmar story, we need to consider that.
Eonwe Valar: I assumed it did when I wrote my part.
ArPharazonV: They seem linked to the powers at northern Mirkwood. Or... I've made them so. So probably used just around northern Misty Mountains and Mirkwood.
Eonwe Valar: I'm just tweaking it to fit the facts now.
ArPharazonV: Though Orcs in other regions may have similar devices.
VardaValar1: But rarer, from trade or taking from those other orcs/goblins.
ArPharazonV: Could be, but I was more thinking about them imitating the idea from their distant cousins and making their own.
VardaValar1: ah ok, a meme, heh.
ArPharazonV: Well, basically, "Hey, those swords they use to keep track of each other look neat. Maybe we should make something like that as well."
VardaValar1: Officers would love that. Grunts, not so much. It's a way of keeping control.
Eonwe Valar: Orcs aren't too keen on hanging out even with other orcs from different tribes. Not sure how much they personally care about keeping track of eachother from an "ally" perspective.
VardaValar1: Officers might like keeping track of their own troops that way though.
Sensing Magic:
Eonwe Valar: I've got a passage this reminds me of, one sec...
Eonwe Valar: "'If there are any to see, then I at least am revealed to them,' he said. 'I have written Gandalf is here in signs that all can be read from Rivendell to the Mouths of Anduin.'"
VardaValar1: Making fire in impossible conditions. *Wizard of fire was here.*
VardaValar1: Was it because it was visible on a mountainside or because of the feel of "magic"?
Eonwe Valar: The answer to that question would depend on whether or not Gandalf is the only person that can reasonably be expected to do what he did.
Eonwe Valar: Even then, I think from a distance it would be hard to tell that it wasn't just someone lighting the wood.
ArPharazonV: Wasn't it an odd-coloured flame?
Eonwe Valar: Well, except for the green and blue flame. That might not be so common.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: I also think about the Balrog though, and how he perceived Gandalf and his shutting spell in Moria.
VardaValar1: The fire-making had surpassed the ability of an elf and a dwarf to make in those conditions. And the fire looked strange.
VardaValar1: True, one spell-caster seems to be aware of another's casting, at least nearby, and maybe a long time.
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, that's the only way I can think of that such a thing would work in the story, is to send out some sort of power that's recognizable, but it doesn't seem it would be noticable over a large distance, and it would be dangerous because anyone else of sufficient power should be able to recognize it as well.
Eonwe Valar: *power and/or skill
VardaValar1: Kind of like poisoning the sword with darkness, adds to it's damage.
Eonwe Valar: But makes it more noticeable, especially to people who know what to look for.
Eonwe Valar: An example I was reviewing for my next post was the morgul-knife, both Aragorn's and Glorfindel's treatment of it.
VardaValar1: Good thought.
Eonwe Valar: Aragorn knows what it is, but Glorfindel sees things about it that Aragorn doesn't, and reacts to it before even touching it.
VardaValar1: and it melted away
VardaValar1: So he felt it at a distance?
Eonwe Valar: "Glorfindel shuddered as he took it, but he looked intently at it."
Eonwe Valar: "'There are evil things written on this hilt,' he said; 'though maybe your eyes cannot see them.'
VardaValar1: Fainan doesn't react until it nearly touches. While Frali kept it, she doesn't seem to notice or doesn't distinguish it from the background yuck.
Eonwe Valar: So it was more of a reaction as he touched it, pardon.
VardaValar1: "as he took it"
Eonwe Valar: Similar to the Gandalf/Balrog incident, actually. They know when they come into contact with the object.
Eonwe Valar: Sauron's Ring seems to just draw evil to it. Gandalf's display on Caradhras could be read for a great distance.
Eonwe Valar: So it would take an item or action of great power to be discerned to any distance away from the object itself, or so it would seem.
VardaValar1: Lot of fire going up into the sky too. [note: Weathertop reference]
Eonwe Valar: And Gandalf is known to light enemies on fire (wolves, orcs, treetops), hehe. That probably helps too
VardaValar1: Aye :-)
VardaValar1: Dread can be felt at a pretty fair distance.
VardaValar1: Gollum reacts to the elven rope, probably not a major spell there. [note: elvish rope glows slightly, un-knots at the user's need]
Eonwe Valar: The Nazgul were Sauron's most powerful servants, and were still only a shadow of their full power.
Eonwe Valar: I think the reaction to Elvish things was more a symbol of his corruption than to a spell or mark of power. Orcs react the same way.
Eonwe Valar: For all we know Sauron may not be favorable to Elvish rope either :}
ArPharazonV: What would you say about daggers and swords that glow when Orcs are near?
Eonwe Valar: That's actually an interesting one, that briefly crossed my mind, so let's talk about it :}
VardaValar1: Good thought, Phar
VardaValar1: And Narsil/Anduril had more than one magic.
Eonwe Valar: Elves we know had an effect upon the land the lived in, so there is some power there to be felt.
Eonwe Valar: *the land they lived in
Eonwe Valar: Likewise with Ainur.
Eonwe Valar: So weapons that could react to that power makes sense in most of the versions of orcish descent.
VardaValar1: Feeling stones that had a memory of elves working them and missing them a very long time later.
Eonwe Valar: Those versions being: 1.) Orcs = corrupted Elves.
Eonwe Valar: 2.) Orcs descending from lesser Ainur who coporealized and then procreated, each generation becoming weaker, and bound to their physical forms.
ArPharazonV: But it would have to be a sort of corrupted version of that power, or the swords would blaze whenever they're in the presence of Elves. Or Maiar.
ArPharazonV: In the first case, that kind of defeats the point.
Eonwe Valar: Men don't seem to have the same kind of impact on their domains, so 3.) Orcs = corrupted Men, throws a wrench into that theory.
VardaValar1: Corrupted elves would be such an abomination that we can see why good magic would flare up in revulsion.
Eonwe Valar: Using Men as stock for improving upon 1.) and 2.), however, would keep the effect.
Eonwe Valar: To some degree at least.
Eonwe Valar: How would it defeat the point, Phar?
ArPharazonV: Because if the swords would react to Elven power as well as corrupted Elven power, the Elves of Gondolin could not use it to detect nearby Orcs if it lit up simply because of their own presence.
ArPharazonV: But Varda made a good point against that.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, it would obviously have been designed to detect Orcs specifically. Otherwise it ought also to sense Trolls.
Eonwe Valar: And dragons.
ArPharazonV: As if you need a glowing sword to detect a dragon ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Well, maybe not trolls, but dragons would be reasonable.
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, aye :}
Eonwe Valar: It also wouldn't help for orcs to make swords that detect orcs, since they'd be around orcs, hehe.
VardaValar1: Unless mainly the officers are trying to track wayward orcs.
Eonwe Valar: The weapons themselves would have to be somehow instilled with a power that could detect other powers, and discern another like itself.
Eonwe Valar: If the weapon reacts to orcs, it'll be lit up like a signal flare because it's being held by an orc.
karakedi25: Meren suggested that it was a curse of some sort
ArPharazonV: Well, if we assume that Orcs and Elves originally emit the same sort of power...
karakedi25: naturally a curse on non-orcs
ArPharazonV: it'd be hard for either side to make a weapon that would detect the other but not their own
Eonwe Valar: It can be assumed that Morgoth's corruption affected not just the Hroa but the Fëa of orcs as well, or they would not be so inclined towards destruction and hatred.
VardaValar1: Maybe holding the hilt or keeping it sheathed cuts the effect if you're an orc.
Eonwe Valar: OK, you all have a post to read :}
Eonwe Valar: I'm satisfied enough with it, so it's up
AriehnV: theyd be made by elves
VardaValar1: Thanks Eonwe!
ArPharazonV: Good post :-)
ArPharazonV: I wonder how Frali will take to the idea.
VardaValar1: He's liable to feel as if he's not considered worthy of trust.
VardaValar1: Agreed, an interesting post, and good atmosphere.
AriehnV: give me ten mins and i ll have a look
AriehnV: some one in this group is not able to avoid aoe and cope with adds *grumbles * none of our guild tho
AriehnV: ok read the post . do you mind if i respond tomorrow ? i am so tired
VardaValar1: be fine :-)
AriehnV: :-)
AriehnV: Namarie for now :-)
ArPharazonV: We're not in a hurry, we've been going for years, and will continue for years more :-)
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
AriehnV: hehe
AriehnV: cheers :-)
AriehnV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript