June 12, 2011 Sunday Meeting
5pm EDT (GMT - 5)
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AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
Transcript work by Ar-Pharazon and Varda.
AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), Fladrifv, Indis-(V)/karakedi25
Fangorn and Varda went out of town to visit Elwing and her family.
LotRO: pre-orders available for the Isengard expansion
A Farewell to Dragons
Middle-earth based music CD (during the end of Gaming).
Eonwe's topic: What is the opposite of Creation?
A little more chat, farewells.
The WoW Lothar group joined up for their Sunday after meeting game.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
Fladrifv has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: hang on, 10 more minutes until we fail our attack on TB
AriehnV has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: We'll be starting the meeting shortly.
AriehnV: aiya all
Eonwe Valar: Heya Arien.
Eonwe Valar: OK, let's begin the meeting.
Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: Varda and Fangorn are out of town visiting Elwing.
Eonwe Valar: Any other Membership news?
Eonwe Valar: Web:
Eonwe Valar: New Article:
Eonwe Valar: Firiel of Númenor by Firiel-(T).
Eonwe Valar: New Poery:
Eonwe Valar: Cûm-nan-Arasaith: The Mound of Avarice
by Firiel-(T). This poem tells of "the burying-place of the slain
dwarves who fell at Sarn Athrad after Beren's vengeance."The Death of
Turamarth by Firiel-(T). The death of Turin Turambar. Turamarth is the
Sindarin form of the name.The Songs of Heaven by Firiel-(T). The song
of creation in the back and forth between Eru and Morgoth.
Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: LotRO's upcoming expansion, Rise of Isengard, has been slated fora September 27 release.
Eonwe Valar: There are a few options for pre-orders if you want to spend real money on these fancy versions.
Eonwe Valar: If you want to see more info, http://isengard.lotro.com/
ArPharazonV: The how many'th expansion is this?
Eonwe Valar: Third.
ArPharazonV: Catching up on WoW I see.
Eonwe Valar: First was Mines of MOria, Second was Siege of Mirkwood.
ArPharazonV: So this is Isengard. Does that come with Rohan?
Eonwe Valar: Presumably Rohan will be involved somewhere in there, aye.
ArPharazonV: One wonders what's left. Did Mirkwood have Erebor? [Note: the Mirkwood map shown so far says "South Mirkwood", suggesting other compass directions in the future.]
Eonwe Valar: Dunland, Gap of Rohan, and Isengard are mentioned on the official site.
AriehnV: since preorderers get exclusive rohirrim mounts
AriehnV: i d guess so
Eonwe Valar: Mirkwood did not include Erebor, so there's still that area.
ArPharazonV: Gondor, Mordor, Erebor...
Eonwe Valar: There's Still Gondor, the Harad, Khand and Rhun, Mordor...
ArPharazonV: You think they'll delve into Harad etc? [Note: Harad is included on the gaming map.]
Eonwe Valar: I assume it's possible. They're lands at least mentioned in LotR, so I don't think they have an issue there.
ArPharazonV: Aye, but not described or mapped in much detail.
ArPharazonV: There could be Umbar in Harad, and the Sea of Rhun in.. well.. Rhun
Eonwe Valar: There's plenty to add, if they want to add it.
ArPharazonV: All the way to Cuivienen?
karakedi25 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Assuming that such a place still exists in its ancient
form, sure. Depends on the extent to which Time Warner's license to
make games based on the books extends. I recall it being somewhat
larger than Turbine's original license, but it's been a while so I may
AriehnV: aiya INdis :-)
karakedi25: interesting sounding topic
ArPharazonV: We're discussing possibilities for further LotRO expansions.
ArPharazonV: Problem with a pre-existing world is that you can only go so far until you fill the borders.
karakedi25: they'd probably have to time-travel to get to some of the places not in Turbine's license
karakedi25: and of course they could build in places that were never written up but were mentioned, such has Harad
karakedi25: or the eastern parts of Middle Earth
ArPharazonV: Aye, I was just mentioning Cuivienen :-)
karakedi25: as I remember, Cuivienen no longer existed in the Third Age
ArPharazonV: *nod* that was the issue
Eonwe Valar: There's still lands out there beyond Middle-Earth, since
Arda was made round. We just don't have names for them, hehe.
ArPharazonV: That's true. New land and continents were formed, but never otherwise mentioned, let alone mapped.
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: OK, someone will need to send me a copy of the transcript, heh.
karakedi25: are we in LotRO or Tolkien?
Eonwe Valar: We're in LotRO.
karakedi25: nothing happened while you were out
Eonwe Valar: I haven't moved to the week's runs yet.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, but my window was closed and so I lost a chunk of the meeting.
ArPharazonV: I took a cautionary save there, want me to send it to you as well as Varda?
Eonwe Valar: Please.
Eonwe Valar: Let's go ahead and push on with from the Rise of Isengard
announcement. We could spend a long time just discussing the
Eonwe Valar: Monday run:
Eonwe Valar: We warmed up with two fast Helegrod wings for Helegrod
marks, level 50 drakes and 57 spiders. (Go for the kill 15 in each
one.) Participants: Galdor (burg Andwegar), Gildor (guardian Marrella),
Gorlim (62 lore-master Istarond), Hurin (65 captain Hiurred), Melkor
(56 hunter Melkoh), Pippin (56 Faerus), and Varda (minstrel Tinwetari).
Then we ran a batch of up and coming alts in their first Grand Stairs
run, and got hard mode, gaining upgrades, medallions, quests, and
deeds. Participans: Galdor (burglar Andwegar), Gildor (61 captain
Livinola), Gorlim (62 lore-master Istarond), Melkor (63 lore-master
Melklore), Pippin (56 guardian Faerus), and Varda (minstrel Tinwetari).
Eonwe Valar: Wednesday run:
Eonwe Valar: Participants: Galdor (burglar Andwegar), Gildor (guardian
Marrella), Gorlim (minstrel Aeronwy), Melkor (rune-keeper Passim),
Nimrodel (hunter Ardisian), and Tulkas (hunter Astald). When Tulkas had
to leave, Pippin stepped in with champion Avengelina.
Eonwe Valar: Elatan, one of our European members, also brought a
character in on Landroval this past week, since the servers were all
merged into one service.
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: Midsummer Fire Festival Upcoming.
Eonwe Valar: Sunday Run:
Eonwe Valar: We hit Sunwell Plateau, then Black Temple, clearing both successfully.
Eonwe Valar: I can't find my list of particpants, but we had 9 guild members and 3 guild-friends.
Eonwe Valar: Friday Run:
AriehnV: Menelvagor joined in on that run i remember
AriehnV: on the sunwell plateau
AriehnV: i think he deserves a mention since he is such a rare appearance
Eonwe Valar: Aha, that was the one I was missing in memory, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: So Eonwë, Varda, BIlbo, Glorfindel, Menelvagor, Bilbo, Nob, Bofur, and Elwing
Eonwe Valar: Then guild friends Draxcil, Rayearth, and Schlep.
Eonwe Valar: I missed the Friday run due to the interference of life, but I'm told Bilbo, Elwing, Fangorn, Glorfindel, and Varda ran a few random dungeons.
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news?
ArPharazonV: Not really. Dabbled in SCII again today, after a while.
AriehnV: No not really , dabbling in Eve again now and then :-)
ArPharazonV: Tried some of the Lost Viking minigame, didn't go very well. Will need to practice more.
ArPharazonV: 's all from me
Eonwe Valar: I pop into SC2 every now and then, and I have the Valar
channel up there when I'm on, in case that interests anyone.
AriehnV: i ve got a cheap russian game from inverness on Friday, but havent looked itnto it yet
AriehnV: A Farewell to Dragons its called
AriehnV: i ll give you a report once i get a chance to try it out :-)
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar: Anything else before we move to Tolkien?
AriehnV: thats it gamingwise from me , i ve got a
small thing that lies in between Member and Tolkien but could also be
said in after bang time but ^^ you chose :-)
Eonwe Valar: GO ahead and say it here, Arien.
Eonwe Valar: *Go
AriehnV: i ve also got the remastered version of Nightfall in Middlearth from Blind Guardian, the cd on friday :-)
Eonwe Valar: Cool "|
AriehnV: i didnt know the whole cd as such , just some pieces and was curious what the other songs were like
AriehnV: also the whole lyrics are included
Eonwe Valar: I like the CD.
AriehnV: quite interesting , all based on stuff in the silmarillion , mainly the Fall of the Noldo
AriehnV: but Niniel gets mentioned as well
AriehnV: Harvest of Sorrows is based on her story
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: There he goes again.
AriehnV: i also like the passages read from the Silmarillion before some of the songz
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
AriehnV: wb , aiyata
AriehnV: still a bit jumpy , your aim :-\
ArPharazonV: Second mid-save.
Eonwe Valar: Apparently.
AriehnV: i like the cd as well , Eonwe and was just mentioning that they read some passages before the songs
AriehnV: from the silmarillon
AriehnV: thats in from me in that corner :-)
Eonwe Valar: Congrats on your new CD :}
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
Eonwe Valar: Here is you last chance to recommend a Tolkien topic before you get mine, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: *your
Eonwe Valar: Who all is still here?
karakedi25: I am
AriehnV: here half
Eonwe Valar: So two of you are here :} Ok, I'll throw out a question, and see how far the discussion goes :}
Eonwe Valar: ok, 2.5
Eonwe Valar: What is the opposite of Creation?
Eonwe Valar: Are you sure about that? :}
ArPharazonV: Well, that's the classic opposition.
AriehnV: change could be as well
ArPharazonV: A force of creation vs a force of destruction. Order vs disorder. Complexity vs entropy.
AriehnV: allthough its not quite the opposite but change destroys the original
Eonwe Valar: Aye, and I figured someone would say it, but the fact I even posed the question suggests a different thought.
ArPharazonV: Creation is change in itself though.
AriehnV has left the room.
karakedi25: in which case the opposite would be stasis
ArPharazonV: Stagnation, yes.
ArPharazonV: What did you have in mind then, Eonwe?
Eonwe Valar: The opposition of two objects, events, or forces implies they are coeval, that they are on the same level.
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: woops i did it again
AriehnV: what have i missed ?
ArPharazonV: AriehnV has left the room.karakedi25: in which case the
opposite would be stasisArPharazonV: Stagnation, yes.ArPharazonV: What
did you have in mind then, Eonwe?Eonwe Valar: The opposition of two
objects, events, or forces implies they are coeval, that they are on
the same level.AriehnV has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: In Tolkien's legendarium, however, the greatest act we see is that of Creation as exibited by Eru.
AriehnV: i remember i said "change is destruction of the original*
ArPharazonV: AriehnV: allthough its not quite the opposite but change
destroys the originalEonwe Valar: Aye, and I figured someone would say
it, but the fact I even posed the question suggests a different
thought.ArPharazonV: Creation is change in itself though.AriehnV has
left the room.
AriehnV: oki thanks
ArPharazonV: The closest to the opposite I can think of there, Eonwe,
was Melkor's desire to destroy all of Eru's Creation, because it was
ArPharazonV: but he did not succeed, and he never could succeed; even
if he managed to trample all into a shapeless mass, it still wouldn't
have been all his doing
ArPharazonV: Or something like that, I seem to remember from Morgoth's Ring.
AriehnV: *twice i have destroyed the Light and Twice i failed"
Eonwe Valar: Melkor, if he had the ability, would certainly want to
undo, to destroy, Ea. In the end though, while he can kill trees, level
mountains, dry up seas, he can't destroy that which these things are
ArPharazonV: So while his destruction was the opposite of Creation in
concept, he never could reach the level it needed to be its true
AriehnV: the Valar used the Destruction he worked to create new things
Eonwe Valar: I don't know if I'd say they "used" it, more that while they worked in his despite, things came together.
ArPharazonV: Or to put it better, the Destruction he desired to reach
was the opposite of Eru's Creation, but since he was ultimately not of
Eru's level, it was an unreachable dream.
karakedi25: There was a place in the Ainulindale where Eru says that even Melkor's discord has a place in his greater design
Eonwe Valar: Aye. Eru made use of Melkor's actions.
AriehnV: remember that for example Ashes is gain by destruction through
fire but on the other hand ashes contributes to fertillization as well
AriehnV: and volcanic areas belong to the most lucid you get
ArPharazonV: One would think that only a destructive entity of Eru's
level and not made by Eru would be able to form a true opposite. There
just wasn't any.
AriehnV: i mean the most lush
karakedi25: There is a concept in information theory referred to as anabolism vs. catabolism.
karakedi25: It's used in biology as well: anabolism is the building up
of something; catabolism is its decomposition, and in biology of course
the decomposition leads to recomposition
karakedi25: If one brings in entropy, of course catabolism would ultimately end up with the lack of information (order)
ArPharazonV: It's a cycle of opposites, really. Creation->destruction->creation->destruction
AriehnV: fertile soil often has its origin in decomposition of organisms
ArPharazonV: And the idea is there, Indis, that anabolism would require
more energy and effort than catabolism; complexity needs work put in to
karakedi25: though in fact destruction also requires energy. Consider
fire or corporeal decomposition. Without the work of millions of
bacteria, the latter would not happen.
ArPharazonV: I'm pretty sure that fire ultimately releases more energy than it uses.
Eonwe Valar: Since ultimately Melkor cannot destroy the substance of
Ea, only break it down to its simplest components at best, destruction
is a fitting opposite for subcreation, but not for the singular act of
Creation enacted by Eru.
Eonwe Valar: Is there anything Melkor can do that can approach, in scope or impact, Creation?
ArPharazonV: Not really.
ArPharazonV: He just lacks the power compared to Eru.
karakedi25: After all, Melkor is himself a creation of Eru, and thus of a lower order
karakedi25: So anything he does cannot be a true equal to what Eru can do.
karakedi25: Unless Eru endows him with that power, which as far as we know, he has not done.
AriehnV: he can corrupt and misguide Erus creations
ArPharazonV: The only thing that could approach Eru's Creation would be
a total annihilation of matter of a power matching Eru's, and even then
one could theorize that because Eru's Creation has once existed, it
simply cannot wholly be undone.
ArPharazonV: And Melkor could never obtain that power, for he is indeed a part of Creation himself.
Eonwe Valar: Aye Arien, Corruption of Eru's Creation is probably the most damaging thing Melkor can do.
karakedi25: which simply isn't equivalent
AriehnV: he can let his captives see what he sees and hear what he hears
ArPharazonV: It's just the best he can do :-)
AriehnV: but no .. nothing matches Erus powers there
Eonwe Valar: It's the closest to an opposite of Creation we can get, I'd say.
Eonwe Valar: The closest perpetratable by anything under Eru, who could of course choose to unmake everything if he wished.
ArPharazonV: Dark Eru.. perfect opposite... ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Corruption perverts the nature of a thing, twists its
purpose. Corruption of lands and trees is bad, but corruption of Eru's
Children has far worse implications.
ArPharazonV: You could say that destruction (or sub-destruction as we
mentioned earlier) is also a form of corruption, a mis-shaping and
changing of purpose and nature.
karakedi25: not if it's part of an orderly process of catabolism
AriehnV: hmm is an earthquake orderly ? or a Tsunami ? (in the endeffect thats what happened in Numenor and Beleriand)
Eonwe Valar: Melkor and Sauron were all about order, just not Eru's
order. I wouldn't rule out Corruption just because it's done in an
karakedi25: if not orderly, probably purposeful
karakedi25: agreed, Eonwe
AriehnV: the crudest form of corruption is bribery .. usually that happens in offices
karakedi25: that's corruption of the social contract
Eonwe Valar: Creation/sub-creation and corruption are acts of will, done with purpose.
Eonwe Valar: Now here's a fun one...
Eonwe Valar: Earlier I said: The opposition of two objects, events, or
forces implies they are coeval, that they are on the same level.
Eonwe Valar: No one argued that. But how does that hold up with the
concept of Good vs Evil? Since Melkor, after all, is not coeval with
Eru, but they are opposed.
Eonwe Valar: Eru is the best example of Good that we have, and Melkor
comes about as close to Evil as something can get and still exist.
AriehnV: hmm in which case he is not Coeval ,.. jhe can never be since Melkor or MOrgoth was his creatrion
ArPharazonV: Well, it fits. While the Evil of Melkor will never be able
to triumph against the Good of Eru, the forces directly involved in the
story of Arda are smaller than Eru's Good.
ArPharazonV: If you put the Good of the Valar against the Evil of
Melkor you get a more coeval opposition, which puts it in balance
within Ea, but in the general picture the Good of Eru will always
prevail, for there is no Evil to oppose it.
ArPharazonV: It's a matter of scale.
AriehnV: Ea would not exist if Eru was not more powerful than any Evil that Morgoth could produce
AriehnV: but as his creation he cant be stronger or even equil
Eonwe Valar: But he can espouse and enact policies that are in direct opposition to Eru.
ArPharazonV: Not in direct opposition if you define opposition as requiring equality in level.
AriehnV: well its all "if i cant do it like him i can do it maybe
better my way and it will be totally different from what he does"
ArPharazonV: If there's a big storm heading in my direction and I
exhale in the opposite direction it's still the opposite, but
completely different in scale.
AriehnV: if i cant have he cant have it eith3e4r
Eonwe Valar: I'm calling that into question. *Should* these dichotomies assume co-evality of the opposites?
AriehnV: Morgoth is a bit like that
ArPharazonV: In practice, for balance-issues, I say that it should. In concept, it shouldn't.
AriehnV: whats a dichotomy?
AriehnV: i dont kinow the word :-(
karakedi25: a split
karakedi25: normallly between concepts
Eonwe Valar: Fancy way of saying these divisions of two groups.
Eonwe Valar: What Indis said.
AriehnV: lol ok
ArPharazonV: In other words, Eonwe was tired of the term "opposite"
Eonwe Valar: Basically, we have Pure Good in the person of Eru, and as
close as we can get to Pure Evil in the form of Melkor/Morgoth.
Eonwe Valar: In Tolkien's world though, we can't get Pure Evil, because
that would be nothing, "absolute zero" and Melkor couldn't even make
himself not exist himself, let alone the rest of Ea.
Eonwe Valar: And yeah, let's go with what Phar said :} It's good to mix up words every now and then :}
Eonwe Valar: (subtract that second "himself")
ArPharazonV: Sounds about right.
Eonwe Valar: So in a way, Evil as "nothingness" is diametrically
opposed to Eru's "allness", it's just that "nothing" is exactly that:
ArPharazonV: There's no force present that can bring about "nothing".
AriehnV: like a patch patches a patch that patched a patch
AriehnV: i think though i get what you mean Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: Since all has gone quiet, and I must make my way to Lothar for the Sunday run, I shall bang the gavel here.
karakedi25: Namarie Eonwe
karakedi25: good luck in WoW
Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel*
ArPharazonV: Namarie, have fun!
Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting:
karakedi25: and say hi to Varda if she's there, and to Nob and Bob
Eonwe Valar: I assume you mean Bofur :}
Eonwe Valar: As for Varda, she's probably not back from her trip, or she'd have stopped in.
karakedi25: OK namarie all; signing off
karakedi25 has left the room.
AriehnV: i mean we came to the conclusion to the fact that because cant
do anything really opposite to Eru he is kind of the closest to
opposite to Eru himself to his allmight
AriehnV: was there anything you wanted us to get to Eonwe ?
Eonwe Valar: We touched on what I was looking at :}
AriehnV: bit of abstract theme but interesting enough
Eonwe Valar: I thought it might be.
ArPharazonV: Saving and sending transcript. To both Varda and Eonwe.