Valar Guild

January 9, 2011 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (6)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presided second part), Galdor-(V)/galdorandwe, Menelvagor Valar, VardaValar1 (presided first part).
    Indis-(V) said hi to the group from her mobil phone.
Meeting begins
    Snow all around.
  Tolkien Encyclopedia articles:
    "Elf Types"
    "Elves" part one. Galdor-V started a short discussion here.
    Eonwe's topic: Everyone name a random theme from LotR.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Phar :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1: brb
VardaValar1: back
ArPharazonV: Aiyata ;-)
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Looks like a short meeting, hehe.
VardaValar1: People tend to come in as we go. I've thought that before!
VardaValar1: We have the three main chatters, could go a while, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: :}

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: I've hesitated to bring in new members until the problem between two of our LotRO members is resolved. But I think it's beginning to work out, so the moratorium will probably be lifted soon.
VardaValar1: Does anyone else have any membership news?
VardaValar1: O, Meriadoc-(V)'s birthday is today. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Happy Birthday Merry :}
ArPharazonV: Congrats!
Eonwe Valar: Aside from snow on the ground outside my window, no membership news from me :}
VardaValar1: You have snow! Nifty!
Eonwe Valar: Not as thick as last year :}
VardaValar1: We have overcast and some rain just south of you.
Eonwe Valar: Just a light powdering, but it's there :}
VardaValar1: Intermittent rain here, but some talk of freezing next week. Maybe we'll see some of your snow yet!
ArPharazonV: we had snow off and on for about the past month, but it's gone now
VardaValar1: Melkor's been shoveling snow regularly in Colorado.
VardaValar1: So no shoveling for Phar today!
ArPharazonV: at least we had a white christmas :-)
VardaValar1: Congratulations!
VardaValar1: Elwing-(V) is partly set up for DSL as of last night. Hoping for good news today.
VardaValar1: On to:

VardaValar1: Web News
VardaValar1: Eonwe and I have been busy on the Tolkien Site, Eonwe very impressively so!
VardaValar1: I re-did the Elf-types artice we discussed as having errors last time, just in time so it does not have conflicts with Eonwe's.
VardaValar1: "Elf Types"
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Eonwe's excellent first part of his general article on Elves is up at:
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
AriehnV: aiya :-))
VardaValar1: Aiya Sunshine :-)
VardaValar1: Doing a snow check. How is the white stuff in your area, Arien?
galdorandwe has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Galdor :-)
VardaValar1: Galdor, we were just mentioning two articles we put up this week:
VardaValar1: "Elf Types" at
galdorandwe: Aiya Varda, Eonwe Aien
AriehnV: hehe yesterday early morning fell about three inches of snow within an hour or at most two
VardaValar1: and "Elves Part One"
VardaValar1: Sounds pretty, Arien. Hope it's not causing problems.
VardaValar1: Galdor, we were asking who all had snow. :-)
AriehnV: very rare in this area .. or used to be , it s the west coast of scotland , and influenced mostly by the golfstream
AriehnV: not too much at the moment
galdorandwe: We had snow here in NY
galdorandwe: Nice. article. I have a few things I'd like ot ask however....give me a sec
VardaValar1: On which one? We mentioned two and they have different authors.
galdorandwe: Elves part 1
VardaValar1: ah good.
VardaValar1: Lots of meat in that one.
galdorandwe: When the elves first "asnwered the calling" and arrived on the blessed shores, 3 of them came forward to speak....Isil Inwe, Finwe Noleme, and Tinwe Linto...I read somewhere that Inwe was the "greatest of all the elves" and was believed to still be lost walking with some of his people in the dark forests of Valinor...can anyone comment on this?
Eonwe Valar: Inwe, as I recall, became Ingwe, and he never came back to Middle-Earth.
VardaValar1: Ingwe of the Vanyar, aye, he remained.
Eonwe Valar: Tinwe Linto, if memory serves, should be the precursor to Elwë = Elu Thingol, who was lost on the Great Journey when he came across Melian.
ArPharazonV: yeah, Tinwelint was Thingol.
Eonwe Valar: They became the Sindar of Beleriand.
VardaValar1: Ingwe in the Silmarillion. He became High King of all the Elves, and lived near Taniquetil.
ArPharazonV: Ingwe and his people.. lost walking in the dark forests of Valinor? I'm pretty sure he lived near Taniquetil, yes.
Eonwe Valar: Any Eldar in Belelriand who took Elwë as their king were considered Sindar. The Nandor under Denenthor were pretty much the only exception before the Noldor came, as far as I can tell.
Eonwe Valar: *Denethor
VardaValar1: The Silmarillion is what we use for canon.
Eonwe Valar: Ingwë lived in Tirion first, as the Vanyar and Noldor were close. Later, the Vanyar moved closer to Taniquetil.
ArPharazonV: many of the Nandor joined Elwë anyway, after the first battle.
VardaValar1: The name changes get confusing.
galdorandwe: Something about Orome leading them through the forest on their way to what was to become Tol Eressa, just before Ulmo had the giant whale and his buddies push it (much to Osse's dismay) to another location...somehting about despite following Orome through the woods, they got's a little fuzzy, but it's on my mind, that's all
VardaValar1: Elu Thingol is the one you're thinking of, I believe. Also called Elwe Singollo.
galdorandwe: One of those 3 elves was Turgon's father...perhaps the one who began with letter "t"?
VardaValar1: He had gone to Valinor and was leading his people back, but he was walking in the woods to visit his friend when he met Melian in the woods.
galdorandwe: Ah, that's sounds more like it...getting wires crossed
VardaValar1: Turgon, second son of Fingolfin
VardaValar1: Working through all the name changes can get hairy. : )
Eonwe Valar: Finwë was Turgon's grandfather in the final version. Don't recall about in the earlier versions off the top of my head
ArPharazonV: Turgon's father was Fingolfin if memory serves.
galdorandwe: Turgon as in Turondo
ArPharazonV: Aye, don't know about earlier versions.
galdorandwe: Tinwe was the one who remained there...I think it's coming back...a little :-)
VardaValar1: Galdor, you're working through the very earliest versions from the Books of Lost Tales, I think?
galdorandwe: Probably
galdorandwe: There's way too much to keep straight without notes.
VardaValar1: Thus we have our handy dandy Encyc. :-)
galdorandwe: Even that is too much at times
VardaValar1: Aye. Thanks Eonwe, for the Search function!
VardaValar1: Eonwe and I and Arveleg tried to rig a lot of ways to tackle the info, to make it findable.
VardaValar1: If one doesn't work, another might.
Eonwe Valar: The Elves Part 1 is stirctly from the Sil and LotR, and focuses only on information impacting Elves in general. It will be the same with Part 2, which covers the HIstory of Middle-Earth.
Eonwe Valar: *strictly
galdorandwe: gotcha
Eonwe Valar: Trying to fit every piece of information from any source on Elves would be too much for any article and focus too much on the Noldor and Sindar.
VardaValar1: Also, we can always use help filling in info that is a member's special interest with articles from same. :-)
VardaValar1: True
VardaValar1: We also try to link out of general articles like Eonwe's into more specific ones to help fill in the info.
Eonwe Valar: Are, I'm sure we could use articles for many if not all of the different Elf groups.
VardaValar1: The Encyc is a work in progress, probably til the end of Arda. : )
VardaValar1: I've already started putting in links from Eonwe's article to other aread in the Encyc.
ArPharazonV: So one could make one general article about a subject and add smaller articles all over, linked by the general one, to fit in all the information?
Eonwe Valar: It is a work in progress (like any categorization of knowledge), whose progress depends on our members :}
VardaValar1: The three elves you mentioned who came forth to scout out Valinor for their people are in both articles mentioned, so that's a good one to discuss.
VardaValar1: We're doing exactly that, Phar. Now we need more articles.
ArPharazonV: Hmm.
VardaValar1: The current names of the three from the Sil are Ingwe, Elwe, and Finwe.
VardaValar1: hmm, a bit of my link work seems to be missing from the article, or not working. Must fix.
VardaValar1: Ok, got me messing around with the links. I'll let Eonwe take the gavel.
AriehnV: sounds like the Hobbits at the Old Man Willow .. "must nap" hehe
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: If we're done with discussing the Elfves article, we can move to Gaming.
Eonwe Valar: *Elves

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: New patch on the PTR.
Eonwe Valar: Lunar Festival coming in the next week or so.
Eonwe Valar: Lothar:
Eonwe Valar: Guild Level is now 5, so we generate free money that gets sent to the bank when we kill stuff :}
ArPharazonV: Pretty sure it's a few weeks away, but I could be wrong.
AriehnV: nice one
Eonwe Valar: Lunar Festival should be about the third week of Januray if I remember the calendar correctly.
Eonwe Valar: *January
Eonwe Valar: I'm expecting to be Revered with the guild by the end of this week, or Tuesday at the latest.
galdorandwe: OK logging off chat for a while...perhaps I'll be back later...btw, what's the Tolkein chat topic?
Eonwe Valar: I keep hitting the rep cap or I'd be there already :}
AriehnV: Lunar festival starts 23 Jan in wow
AriehnV: just checked
ArPharazonV: 2 weeks then
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Arien.
Eonwe Valar: That's why i prudently say "week or so" :}
ArPharazonV: I guess we're both right then :-)
Eonwe Valar: Chat topic: we'll find out when we get there :}
AriehnV: 30 Jan i wont mention since its just me getting older :-P
galdorandwe has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: :}
ArPharazonV: Friendly still with my guild. Now that I'm diving deeper into Cataclysm it's going faster, and over halfway to honored now. We're level 5 as well, halfway to 6.
ArPharazonV: And made 84 today ;-)
AriehnV: gratz :-D got 85 on Justi :-))
ArPharazonV: nice :-)
AriehnV: just about 3 hours ago
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
ArPharazonV: grats
Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
AriehnV: (got my lock on AD now as well - as Gerenna, had to change names)
VardaValar1: Grats for the privilege of surviving anther year, Arien!
AriehnV: 3 weeks to that yet .. Varda
AriehnV: plenty time ..
AriehnV: ;-)

Eonwe Valar: Varda's floor for LotRO :}
VardaValar1: oops
VardaValar1: I typed it in the wrong window. :-)
VardaValar1: We did quite well, getting all the requested class quests and coming all the way to the last boss. A little more practice with the interrupts and I think we'll have him. Got him wayyy down, ol' Gurvand.
VardaValar1: This was the Dark Delving Moria dungeon, considered the hardest of the Moria dungeons.
VardaValar1: That was the Monday run.
VardaValar1: We didn't really have a Wednesday run, as most of us came in late or had other obligations for runs. Yet a whole lot of us did come in that night and I suspect we could've had a nice run if one of us said something. (I was one of those not available at the needed time.)
VardaValar1: This weekend is the last weekend of the Yule Festival, grab stuff now! :-)
VardaValar1: End report.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks, Varda.
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming?
ArPharazonV: Not really. Few more physics games on the site I've mentioned enough times before.
Eonwe Valar: OK, then if no one else has any gaming, let's move to Tolkien.
AriehnV: i was playing a bit on my hunter in Lotro :-)
AriehnV: Melkor saw me i think and galdor too and a couple of others
AriehnV: got Master Journeyman Woodworker and got my smoke :-)]
AriehnV: thanks for that whoever the kind donator was
AriehnV: thats it from me :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}

Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: You're welcome. :-)
Eonwe Valar: No topic was suggested by whisper, so what do you all want to talk about? :}
VardaValar1: Tintalli is my new cook/farmer, sent smokes out for JRRT's birthday.
VardaValar1: Galdor mentioned his topic, not sure if there's more to cover on that. All those here probably know the subject cold.
Eonwe Valar: The one we discussed during Web?
VardaValar1: Aye
Eonwe Valar: Thought that was covered about as well as we could :}
VardaValar1: Aye :-)
Eonwe Valar: OK, then let's do this: Everyone name a random theme from LotR :}
VardaValar1: Horses of the Black Riders.
ArPharazonV: The beacons of Gondor.
Eonwe Valar: How are those themes?
ArPharazonV: How are they not?
ArPharazonV: Allright, so by themes you are not referring to topics.
Eonwe Valar: Because they're things and not demonstrated throughout the space of the story? :}
Eonwe Valar: Compassion, Loyalty, Death. These are themes :}
AriehnV: Loyalty is a nice theme
VardaValar1: sorry, horses were not theme, just something recently been thinking about.
VardaValar1: I didn't read properly, expecting you to say topic instead of theme. My bad.
VardaValar1: Loyalty, good one.
Eonwe Valar: There are more to be named as well :}
ArPharazonV: Determination!
VardaValar1: Sam, Frodo's batman, is the epitome of Loyalty.
VardaValar1: Ok, so name all the themes we can, you mean?
AriehnV: Rivalry
Eonwe Valar: Everyone naming one theme is fine, or we can try to name all the themes that come to mind.
VardaValar1: ok
VardaValar1: Nice one, Phar. And Arien.
Eonwe Valar: And get a short explanation for the more atypical or interesting themes.
VardaValar1: Not sure Tolkien really missed *any* themes. :-)
AriehnV: Tolerance ... Love of course :-) .. Friendship
ArPharazonV: Fate
VardaValar1: Redemption: Boromir, Galadriel.
Eonwe Valar: Free Will
ArPharazonV: ..I gave that away, didn't I?
Eonwe Valar: I was thinking Free Will anyway, you just gave me an excuse to go ahead and say it without a laundry list of others :}
VardaValar1: Determination: Frodo, Sam, Aragorn
VardaValar1: You have to give some kind of example too, hah! :-) Make it a bit tougher.
VardaValar1: Rivalry: Denethor and Faramir
VardaValar1: Going with Arien's Rivalry theme.
VardaValar1: Determination from Phar's theme.
Eonwe Valar: Free Will is the easy one :} Frodo chose to carry the Ring, Gandalf chose to guide him, Aragorn chose to accompany him to Mordor after Gandalf fell, Frodo chose to leave the Fellowship behind after Boromir's attack, Faramir chose to let Frodo and Sam continue on, and most importantly, these choices affected the outcome of the War of the Ring.
ArPharazonV: Fate: Bilbo seemed fated to pick up the Ring against all odds, to name one of a few
VardaValar1: Getting past pre-conceived hatreds: Gimli and Legolas.
ArPharazonV: Corruption: Saruman, Gollum
ArPharazonV: Sauron, for that matter
Eonwe Valar: Lobelia is also a form of Redemption.
VardaValar1: Getting past pre-conceived ideas: Sam decided Elves were above his like or dislike. He had wanted to see them "more than anything", then seemed to no longer worry about it once he'd met them in Rivendell. No special reaction to having Legolas along in the party, for instance. Just another guy.
ArPharazonV: Breaking solitude and neutrality to chip in for a greater cause..
ArPharazonV: Ents, the Druadan, and even the Hobbits to a degree
ArPharazonV: Druedain, sorry.
VardaValar1: That's one we don't hear often, cool.
VardaValar1: Come out of our hole and participate in the great cause.
VardaValar1: That gets pretty literal with hobbits.
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: Looks like we pretty well stopped for the moment.
ArPharazonV: All three of them decided to return to solitude as well. The Ents retreated back to Fangorn and did not participate at Minas Tirith, their chief concern was Saruman (whom they guarded for a while); the Druedain did what they did in return for being left alone, and part of the deal for the Hobbits was that no big men would enter their lands again.
VardaValar1: That's true. They were allowed to go back to their peace. Aragorn was pretty amazing that way.
Eonwe Valar: Wel,l it was their prerogative, and given that the Dominion of Man was beginning, not terribly surprising that they would return to their bounds and remain.
VardaValar1: Aragorn didn't seem to slap a tax on them and required number of folks for his armies for policing his lands. He could've.
ArPharazonV: Well, he allowed them to police his own lands. Always a smart thing to do with an empire that big, as long as they rise up against you. And they weren't inclined to anyway, as a race.
ArPharazonV: *as long as they don't
Eonwe Valar: WIth the exception of the Hobbits, the were their own realms.
ArPharazonV: *police their own lands
ArPharazonV: any other mistakes in that sentence?
Eonwe Valar: I think you got them :}
VardaValar1: I try not to count the mistakes in my own sentences, let alone others. ;-)
VardaValar1: Nice job.
VardaValar1: Need an article on Ingwe.
VardaValar1: Can't link to him if he has no article. : )
Eonwe Valar: You could create a page that says "I'm sorry, but we need an article of this. Feel free to joing the Valar Guild and send one in!" and link to that :}
ArPharazonV: what, like wikipedia? :-)
ArPharazonV: "This article is a stub."
VardaValar1: Arien's comment on the Rivalry theme is another one not talked about much.
VardaValar1: heheheh
VardaValar1: I have stuff kind of like that. Like the Elves page has a bunch of un-linked names. It's not just a mention but a request.
VardaValar1: Nothing here. Send article. :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
AriehnV: but they werent as seclusive as before or refrained from contacts with the outside world as they did before
AriehnV: the Hobbits at least
VardaValar1: Find un-linked names. Send article!
VardaValar1: True about the hobbits especially.
VardaValar1: Fangorn seemed to be happy with the idea of Elves visiting.
VardaValar1: He was more nervous about dwarves, when Gimli was mentioned, but seemed to be coaxed into it.
ArPharazonV: Sam and his family were thrilled when Aragorn was about to visit, though they would not cross the bridge into the Shire, if memory serves.
VardaValar1: They could all make tourism money. :-)
VardaValar1: True
VardaValar1: Aragorn made a law that even he had to observe.
VardaValar1: He didn't exclude himself from the laws, I mean.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, he did not hold himself above his own laws.
VardaValar1: If a law doesn't hold for one, then it should be questioned whether it should hold for any.
VardaValar1: Then there's setting an example.
VardaValar1: Aragorn knew he wouldn't take advantage of the Hobbits, but others, one wonders, yessss, we wonders.
VardaValar1: hmm, we could use articles specifically for the types of elves, as just on the Vanyar.
VardaValar1: This allows more linking as term definition at least.
VardaValar1: A lot of use of the Encyc is rather that of a Dictionary. Definition. Then we can add more on the subject.
Eonwe Valar: Looks like this might be a good time to bang the gavel. Chat is mostly dead :}
VardaValar1: For artists among you, some pictures were removed due to lawyers, since the pictures were published in books. Raft-elves now needs a new image, for instance.
VardaValar1: Aye Eonwe.
VardaValar1: Arien and Phar need their sleep too. :-)
Eonwe Valar: And aye, even just some placeholder articles would probably help. Unfortunately, I can't write them all :}
Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel*

Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting :}
VardaValar1: Definitions would be of more aid than one might think, not really just place-holders.
VardaValar1: And no, Eonwe should not have to write them all. :-)
Eonwe Valar: *cough* Neither should Varda *cough* :}
AriehnV: *pats Eonwe and Varda"
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: placeholders/definitions are tricky, they might not seem good enough to send in, while especially Varda and Eonwe have direct access (or so it seems) and could add them in on a whim, so to speak
ArPharazonV: so I'm not surprised that you're both ending up writing most of them
ArPharazonV: though of course you shouldn't have to :-)
VardaValar1: Eonwe does not have direct access.
VardaValar1: I, however, can enter them on a whim. :-)
VardaValar1: Some of our members really wrote a lot!
VardaValar1: Take a look at Daeron's (fka Cirdan).
VardaValar1: Looking back, it appears I need to fix links on his author's page. afk, then will do that.
VardaValar1: Theme articles would also be good. They could be added to by various folk as well.
VardaValar1: Technically, Eonwe and I have access to each other's sections, but in actuality go through the other person.
VardaValar1: If one of us is run over by a truck, the other can still reach the area. : )
VardaValar1: No article on Olwe? man
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Really? Wow.
VardaValar1: Nothing on the elf Denethor.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Menelmacar :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Really? Wow. that's a really nice sentence to enter the chat upon :-D
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, heya Menel :}
ArPharazonV: Makes you curious, doesn't it?
VardaValar1: They tend to be included in other articles, but not separately.
VardaValar1: hehe Menel :-)
VardaValar1: Some odd holes in our Encyc. : )
Menelvagor Valar: sort of... but also rather tipsy... so some things aren't exactly registering correctly at the moment ^^
VardaValar1: Places need work too. Nothing at all on the Anduin River?
VardaValar1: Nothing on Amon Hen? egad
VardaValar1: Not even the Brandywine River?
Menelvagor Valar: what part of the Anduin river?
VardaValar1: heh.
VardaValar1: You could list parts of the Anduin, who lived along them, areas bordering, some history.
Menelvagor Valar: I mean, it is only the single largest river known in Middle Earth, probably the longest as well.... lots to tell about it I guess.
VardaValar1: But nothing is told about it in our Encyc. Yes.
VardaValar1: Yet.
Menelvagor Valar: I'm not promising anything... I usually disappoint at that.
VardaValar1: By the way, I changed the order of things on the Tolkien Encyclopedia. Now alphabetical:
VardaValar1: I take no promise from a tipsy person. : )
Menelvagor Valar: which is a bit of a bummer, since usually sunday is my drinking night day :-(
Menelvagor Valar: I see you changed it from the previous subject demarkation...
ArPharazonV: the Anduin.. was larger than Sirion, wasn't it?
Menelvagor Valar: Not sure, but Sirion isn't in Middle Earth anymore.
VardaValar1: Maybe you are thinking of:
ArPharazonV: Ahh, so *at the time*.
Menelvagor Valar: hehe :-)
Menelvagor Valar: and no Varda, I remember the encyc being marked by humanoid intelligence, non-humanoid, beasts, objects and places, anything else there was.
Eonwe Valar: On her first link, it's still how it was, only all subjects are alphabetically arranged rather than heirachically arranged.
Menelvagor Valar: that's what I meant Eonwe, thanks :-)
Menelvagor Valar: except I would have meant it plus an extra "r" I think ^^
VardaValar1: Indis just messaged: karakedi25: Hi. I'm at a restaurant w fami-y.
VardaValar1: I removed Non-humanoid Intelligence from the Subject list, Menel, after a comment by Eonwe. But the page still exists.
Menelvagor Valar: I would love to hear that comment ^^
VardaValar1: More or less that it was unnecessary.
VardaValar1: I agreed.
Menelvagor Valar: I guess I would agree as well... but I still would say it depends on what you reckon to be "humanoid" ^^
VardaValar1: I took the main beings from that page and put them in as separate subjects.
Menelvagor Valar: but, regardless of that question, it looks good as it is now, so there's no real need digging up old corpses... or whatever the correct English phrase is.
Eonwe Valar: "Humanoid" in fantasy and sci-fi tends to be those things which share a shape similar to humanity. In ME this would be Man, Elfs, Hobbits, and Dwarves.
Eonwe Valar: And you didn't see me pluralize "Elf" as "Elfs" *cough*
VardaValar1: *gasp* How mainstream!
VardaValar1: Can anyone invite karakedi25
Eonwe Valar: I'm not sure how that one worked its way to my fingertips, heh.
Eonwe Valar: I'm not seeing her on..
ArPharazonV: so non-humanoid intelligence would be... eagles? dragons?
Eonwe Valar: Shelob and the spiders of Mirkwood as well.
ArPharazonV: true
Eonwe Valar: Gurthang, possibly.
Menelvagor Valar: Ents, Trolls, Spiders, Wights... any more?
Menelvagor Valar: Wights could be humanoid though, depending of whether you think undead humans are humanoid :-P
VardaValar1: Trolls could be humanoid
Eonwe Valar: The shape they're seen in is.
Menelvagor Valar: Tried inviting Indis, but got an error message.
VardaValar1: Human shaped: head, two arms, two legs, upright.
Menelvagor Valar: It highly depends on which shape you reckon.
VardaValar1: Same here, on her phone.
Menelvagor Valar: in that case, Ents are humanoid as well.
VardaValar1: Correct
ArPharazonV: That's why I didn't include Ents.
ArPharazonV: Or trolls.
Menelvagor Valar: I believe that definition is wrong then :-)
VardaValar1: Gurthang is an intriguing one.
ArPharazonV: Huan? :-)
VardaValar1: The one I gave is the one used in SF and Fantasy.
VardaValar1: Huan, aye.

Menelvagor Valar: so, an ogre with 2 heads is not humanoid? ^^
Menelvagor Valar: according to that definition anyways :-)
VardaValar1: Borderline. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: WoW classifies them as human :-)
Menelvagor Valar: or at least humanoid :-)
Menelvagor Valar: and there's this human in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy who has 2 heads :-)
Eonwe Valar: WoW's also known to twist common fantasy themes, hehe :}
VardaValar1: Borderline, but yes.
ArPharazonV: WoW also classifies naga as humanoid, and they don't have legs :-)
VardaValar1: Since we have no two-headeds in Middle-earth, not a problem.
ArPharazonV: heck, even the lobsters in WoW are classified as humanoid.
Menelvagor Valar: but that's because they have more or less human torso's.
VardaValar1: I would not classify Naga as humanoid. More like snakes.
Menelvagor Valar: like the ramkahen (sphinxes).
ArPharazonV: I'm still convinced Naga are fish, not snakes.
ArPharazonV: But it's close.
Menelvagor Valar: snakefish.
VardaValar1: In WoW, you have a point, Phar.
Eonwe Valar: Wow pretty much classifies anything with sentience as human or "higher"
Eonwe Valar: *humanoid or "higher"
Menelvagor Valar: not really :-)
VardaValar1: They don't really use humanoid correctly, more like sentient/sapient.
Menelvagor Valar: Ragnaros isn't human :-)
Eonwe Valar: Name an exception to that :}
Eonwe Valar: I said "or higher" :}
Menelvagor Valar: most elementals aren't exactly the brightest nuts in the tree.
ArPharazonV: Ragnaros... he's got a head, 2 arms, he's upright... too bad we don't see his feet ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: he doesn't have any :-)
Menelvagor Valar: then again, Major Whimp is classified humanoid, and it's clear that his cowardice by far outstrips his intelligence.
AriehnV: aiya .. Ragnaros is a dragon turned fire Elemental
ArPharazonV: Hmm, tough one! His torso reaches out of the fire in every position we've seen him too far, which might be presented as a portal out of the Firelands. We've not seen him in full body. He might have feet!
Menelvagor Valar: plus, he's a snake.
AriehnV: after all he is Deathwings get
Eonwe Valar: Most of the ones we see anyway may not be the brightest bulbs, but there are plenty we run into that are at least of average intelligence.
Menelvagor Valar: Ragnaros never was a Dragon :-)
Eonwe Valar: Ragnaros was the lt. of one of the Old Gods.
Menelvagor Valar: yes, and so is Therazane.
Menelvagor Valar: and neither were dragons, and both are elementals, of fire and earth respectively.
AriehnV: ah right .. so who am i thinking of ?
ArPharazonV: Hmm. I was thinking the other day. Ragnaros is listed as the fire lord, master of all elementals, same position as Neptulon, Al'akir, and Therazane.
Eonwe Valar: Nefarion and Onyxia were the children of Deathwing.
Menelvagor Valar: All elementals of their respective plain Pharzie.
ArPharazonV: But I remember from Classic days that he was more of a general, and not the actual lord of his realm...
AriehnV: Nefarion . of course
ArPharazonV: yes, that's what I meant, Menel
Menelvagor Valar: Nefarion = Blackwing btw.
ArPharazonV: so maybe I just misunderstood then, or did they retcon him?
Menelvagor Valar: nope.
ArPharazonV: Of course the fact that he's both the lord of the Firelands *and* a general of the Old Gods confused me...
Eonwe Valar: The Old Gods would either sugjugate or destroy the lords of the Elemental Plain, so it makes sense their lts. would be the Elemental Lords.
Eonwe Valar: *subjugate
ArPharazonV: Maybe I'm confused with Thunderaan, who was merely a Prince.
ArPharazonV: *shrug*
AriehnV: hmm if i got that right .. the Naga were fighting the water elementals to conquer the realm of Neptulon , the lord of the Water plain .. therefore acting on behalf of the old gods
AriehnV: which is about corresponding to what happened to fire and earth which fought each other?
ArPharazonV: the Naga also employed the Twilight's Hammer, who are in league with the fire elementals, and the Old Gods.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye, just like the Twilight Hammer cultists are attacking Deepholm, the realm of Therazane.
Menelvagor Valar: and both are elemental lords who have not been subjugated, or have freed themselves at some point.
ArPharazonV: Twilight's Hammer are in Vashj'ir working with the Naga. The Naga had Faceless and cultists as allies.
AriehnV: aye
ArPharazonV: I did those quests today, only have Defending the Rift and the Throne of the Tides waiting for me tomorrow before I'm done with Vashj'ir.
ArPharazonV: so it's pretty fresh :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I have finished everything except Uldum :-)
Menelvagor Valar: but running Uldum with my Din now :-)
Menelvagor Valar: lvl 84 as of today btw :-)
ArPharazonV: same!
Menelvagor Valar: was 79 yesterday :-D
AriehnV: grats :-D
ArPharazonV: hehe
ArPharazonV: not bad
AriehnV: 85 today :-D
Menelvagor Valar: oh, if I hadn't slept, I would have made 85 today :-)
AriehnV: heehe beat ye there :-P
Menelvagor Valar: Already have my druid at 85 :-D
Menelvagor Valar: and everything except Uldum cleared of quests on my Druid :-)
AriehnV: just working on twilight highlands :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Hyjal, half of Deepholm, and half of Uldum on the din :-)
AriehnV: but havent done deepholm yet on Justitia
AriehnV: but finished the other areas
Menelvagor Valar: I will eventually on Stonesong :-)
ArPharazonV: I'm 84 in Vashj'ir. It helped that I was already halfway to 82 when I started the Cataclysm zones. I've no doubt I'll reach 85 before I'm finished in Deepholme.
Menelvagor Valar: I am making way too much money selling the herbs and leather I find while questing not to do the rest :-D
Menelvagor Valar: how many quests in Vashjir done?
ArPharazonV: Only Defending the Rift left, as I said. And I'll be heading directly into the Throne of the Tides normal to finish up the questline.
AriehnV: me ..? both chains and into the deep
VardaValar1: Ok, Daeron-(V)'s articles are now all linked into his author's page. They had gotten moved and not all re-added to his page. He did a ton and deserves recognition.
ArPharazonV: If I can get my guild and community to support me of course, since I'm barely too high to use the darn dungeonfinder for it.
Menelvagor Valar: and how far into 84 are you? :-)
ArPharazonV: about... a fifth or so?
ArPharazonV: maybe more
ArPharazonV: but the Throne should add a bit of xp as well
Menelvagor Valar: then you may or may not reach 85 by the end of Deepholm :-)
Menelvagor Valar: except you won't be able to go into the throne of tides :-)
Menelvagor Valar: at least, not as a random dungeon.
ArPharazonV: I will. I can't use the dungeonfinder, but I just need a group.
Menelvagor Valar: good luck with that one :-D
ArPharazonV: And I have enough connections to drag people out for it tomorrow at some point.
Menelvagor Valar: hehe :-)
ArPharazonV: Worked for BRC normal as well, which I did as soon as I discovered it at the start of Hyjal.
ArPharazonV: Even got a guild achievement out of it for THG :-)
AriehnV: i am there Cala, you can always count on me if you need someone
ArPharazonV: No, sorry. Can't get achievements for normal versions. But we got a lot of guild xp for it anyway. And we got our personal achievements for it.
[Yet more WoW, nothing to do with Valar, so it is not included.]