Valar Guild

January 2, 2011 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (6)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), fladrifv, Menelvagor Valar, VardaValar1
Meeting begins
    Eonwe Valar: I could've sworn that in the Silmarillion I'd come across a quote that specficially says that silver hair was common among Thingol's kin, but for the life of me, I've found it nowhere, and I've spent alot of time trying to find it.
    Tomorrow is JRRT's birthday.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
AriehnV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
AriehnV: aiya all and happy new year :-)
Eonwe Valar: Happy New Year :}
Eonwe Valar: We'll begin in a few minutes, whether we're it or not :}
AriehnV: oki do :-) the others will still have family around i guess
Eonwe Valar: It's possible, aye.
Eonwe Valar: OK, let's begin.
ArPharazonV: happy new year!

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Happy New Year to all :}
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: Pharazon, Arien, and Eonwe are here. Varda should be in shortly since she just came on. Go us :}
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: And there she is :}
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien, Ar-Pharazon, and Eonwe :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya Varda and Happy New Year :}
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
Eonwe Valar: The New Year thread is up on the forum if anyone would like to wish a Happy New Year there :}
VardaValar1: (Messing around with the Tolkien Encyc and just caught the time, pardon.)
Eonwe Valar: Any other Membership news?
ArPharazonV: It's 2011 now!
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: other than that, not really :-)
VardaValar1: Gimli-(V) and his wife have a new daughter as of this last Friday. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Congrats to them and to their new little girl :}
ArPharazonV: That girl is going to have a really hard time with her birthday on the 31st. Kids born on holidays always do.
AriehnV: congratulation :-D

Eonwe Valar: Web:
ArPharazonV: but yes, congratulations :-)
Eonwe Valar: Part 1 of my Elves article will be ready soon, but unfortunately wasn't ready quite as soon as I wanted it to be.
VardaValar1: Rather have it good quality, no worries.
VardaValar1: I was playing around with the Tolkien Encyc but nothing's online yet. At least you know it's being looked into.
Eonwe Valar: :}

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: I I believe Winter Veil is over now, so I hope you all got your presents from under the tree.
AriehnV: aye a nice cute zeppelin is on my active characters :-D
VardaValar1: Grats! :-)
Eonwe Valar: Lothar: We made a run for a few dungeons for guild achievements last Sunday:
Eonwe Valar: Utgarde Pinnacle, Utgarde Keep, Azjol'Nerub, Stockade, Ragefire Chasm, and Wailing Caverns.
Eonwe Valar: We managed to get a few of the Achievements in the Utgarde instances, and Watch him Die in Azjol'Nerub (That was the fun one, hehe).
Eonwe Valar: We picked up a couple of other instances for guild credit during the week.
AriehnV: aye not so easy that one
Eonwe Valar: Given that the last two Fridays were holidays, nothing was scheduled and nothing was run on those days.
Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: Varda, would you like to report?
VardaValar1: Aye, thanks.
VardaValar1: Monday we ran the 6-man Moria instance "The Grand Stairs".
VardaValar1: Wednesday we ran "Thror's Coomb".
VardaValar1: For the New Year's lottery, I won the Steed of Night.
AriehnV: grats :-)
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
ArPharazonV: Nice :-)
VardaValar1: We've been running a lot of stuff all week, mostly impulse. Lots of us have been on at all sorts of weird hours.
VardaValar1: Elwing came to my house and used her LotRO f2p account on our broadband, so she and I ran a lot of low level together.
VardaValar1: Not so sure I like the task boards or all the extra stuff given to the new player. Eats inventory and isn't much use on the items given, and we can't tell if we can still turn in the task until we try to turn it in.
VardaValar1: But we adapt.
VardaValar1: The new setups for the starter areas were well done. :-)
VardaValar1: End report.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
AriehnV: i ve been on Lotro a bit :-)
Eonwe Valar: Anyone have any other Gaming News? Now's your chance to suggest Tolkien topics as well.
AriehnV: Hunter sneeking to 32
ArPharazonV: I finally finished the old world revamped zones in WoW today, and moved on to the Cataclysm zones (Hyjal) an hour ago, nearly a month after the expansion came out :P
AriehnV: been a bit in wintersomething .. forgot the name .. surprise surprise .. winterholme
AriehnV: hehe nice nice :-) i ve been through Vashir and hyjal on Justitia and through hyjal on Urwendi who is sat in Deepholme atm
AriehnV: 83 and 82 respectively
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
VardaValar1: Grats : )
Eonwe Valar: If there's no other gaming, then we're ready for Tolkien :}

Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
Eonwe Valar: OK Phar, time to give us a 20 minute lecture on the motives and mechaniations of Ar-Pharazon, king of Numenor :}
VardaValar1: You're encouraging him? : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
ArPharazonV: *blinks* what?
VardaValar1: He's been stuck underground sooooo long!
ArPharazonV: You'd better be kidding.
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Of course I am :}
AriehnV: *chuckles*
VardaValar1: Write an article, Phar!
VardaValar1: Then when he says something like that you can link it. ;-)
Eonwe Valar: But we've had no suggestions for Tolkien topics, and I don't have one jumping to mind, so I ask you three what you would suggest for Tolkien time tonight :}
VardaValar1: I was curious if you'd found something we usually miss noticing, during your elf research.
Eonwe Valar: Actually, I've lost something. Perhaps one of you can remind me where it was.
VardaValar1: Do we have to wait and dig through the article? Want to whet our appetites?
VardaValar1: *gets shovel*
VardaValar1: What did you lose? *shovel on shoulder, ready*
Eonwe Valar: I could've sworn that in the Silmarillion I'd come across a quote that specficially says that silver hair was common among Thingol's kin, but for the life of me, I've found it nowhere, and I've spent alot of time trying to find it.
VardaValar1: I don't remember that in the Sil at all. What I do remember is that his time with Melian caused him to have silver hair. Then Celeborn is mentioned with silver hair.
VardaValar1: Not saying it isn't so. : )
Eonwe Valar: I know I've seen it, and I could've sworn I saw it in the Sil. I know I mentioned it to you at one point, Varda, but now I can't find it in the Sil.
AriehnV: i ll chek :-)#
VardaValar1: I'm finding something about it online. May be able to help.
Eonwe Valar: I need to go afk for a sec, pardon.
VardaValar1: umf, this isn't helpful yet. Still looking.
fladrifv has entered the room.
VardaValar1: heh, going to the Sil instead.
VardaValar1: Aiya Flad :-)
fladrifv: Aiya! and happy new year to you all :-)
ArPharazonV: Happy new year!
VardaValar1: Thingol had silver hair, of course. Descendents that he had would be Luthien, Dior,
VardaValar1: Happy New Year :-)
VardaValar1: Elwing, Elrond and Elros, Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen.
VardaValar1: But Celeborn was not descended from Thingol, but from Olwe.
VardaValar1: Celeborn we know for sure had silver hair too.
ArPharazonV: He was named for it :-)
VardaValar1: Flad, we're looking into silver-haired elves. :-)
VardaValar1: That much proves that the silver hair didn't come only from Thingol.
ArPharazonV: I wonder if grey hair was common in Numenor, among Elros' descendants. And I'm not just talking about the elderly :-)
VardaValar1: Ok, ch. 4 does not say Thingol's hair changed when he was with Melian.
AriehnV: hmm i found a reference in the Wikipedia that Cirdan was silverhaired like his overlord and kinsman Thingol
VardaValar1: Cirdan was weird. Facial hair.
VardaValar1: Another mention of Thingol's grey hair is in "Of Eldamar".
Eonwe Valar: back.
VardaValar1: It's why the confusion, in that chapter.
VardaValar1: "fair and noble as he had been, now he appeared as it were a lord of the Maiar, his hair as grey silver, tallest of all the Children of Iluvatar; and a high doom was before him."
VardaValar1: This was right after his long trance.
VardaValar1: Funny I'm finding things faster in the books than the internet.
VardaValar1: Sorry, wrong above about Celeborn. Galadriel his wife is from Olwe.
VardaValar1: through Earwen.
ArPharazonV: So who was Celeborn's father? I think his name was mentioned too in one of the versions.
ArPharazonV: I'm pretty sure it was a brother of Thingol.
VardaValar1: Celeborn from Doriath is the version in the Sil.
VardaValar1: Olwe and Elwe (Thingol) were brothers in the Sil. Elmo was another brother mentioned in the Histories.
ArPharazonV: Elmo. Aha. Probably him then.
ArPharazonV: Ah yes. Celeborn was his grandson.
VardaValar1: Where do you find that?
ArPharazonV: tolkien gateway, but I also remember it from the Histories.
VardaValar1: Do they say where it is in the books?
ArPharazonV: Unfinished Tales.
ArPharazonV: the parts about Celeborn and Galadriel.
VardaValar1: That might help Eonwe.
Eonwe Valar: The Valar Guild Encyclopedia article "Types of Elves" also had info about Celeborn being the grandson of Elmo and having silver hair, but some of the information in that article reads wrong, at least as I'm reading it.
VardaValar1: If so, I need to know to fix it.
VardaValar1: I see that. Not attributed. [Note: not attributed in footnote fashion, just in References]
VardaValar1: Listing of sources at the bottom.
Eonwe Valar: Well, the biggest two jumping out at me are that the Sindar *were* Moriquendi, as the Noldor classified them.
VardaValar1: I have trouble remembering last week, let alone 2005. :-)
Eonwe Valar: And as I read it, and the Appendix suggests, the Silvans are synonymous with all non-Laiquendi Nandor, so Silvans would be a subgroup of Nandor, not the other way around.
AriehnV: Some Sindar are described with silver hair: King Thingol's turned silver from contact with Melian. Lord Celeborn had silver hair, grandson of Elmo who was the youngest brother of Thingol.
AriehnV: thats how it stands in that article on types of elves about the sindar
Eonwe Valar: By "non-Laiquendi" I should more properly say, all those Nandor who did not pass over the Misty Mountains.
Eonwe Valar: The Laiquendi are actually a remnant of the group of Nandor who did pass west of the Misty Mountains, who did not merge with the Sindar after their lord Denethor (and many of their people) was lost in the first battle of the Wars of Beleriand.
VardaValar1: Laiquendi / Green Elves: A part of the Nandor, led by Denethor, long afterwards crossed the Blue Mountains and settled in Ossiriand, where they were called the Laiquendi, the "Green-elves". They preferred to live in the trees and fought in guerrilla fashion, rather than in armies.
VardaValar1: That's the quote.
Eonwe Valar: They weren't originally called "Laiquendi" though. They appear to have taken or been given that name after the First Battle.
VardaValar1: article quote, not book quote.
Eonwe Valar: it was because of the loss of their people (who were lightly armed against orc iron) and the horror stories the survivors brought back that some merged with Thingol's people, and the rest took to secrecy.
VardaValar1: I remember digging this stuff out of the books. I may have paraphrased badly. I can pull the article off the net.
Eonwe Valar: It's not so bad as to be pulled off the net, but some of this info will be in my Elves article, and so may look contradictory.
VardaValar1: That little bit doesn't say they were originally called the Laiquendi.
VardaValar1: The list of references will probably be different.
VardaValar1: This article was strictly RotK, Sil.
Eonwe Valar: Not really, though I will have citations to pages in many cases.
VardaValar1: Including appendices, tables.
Eonwe Valar: Most of my information comes from the Sil.
VardaValar1: I don't look forward to having to completely re-look up everything in the article.
VardaValar1: That was a lot of digging.
VardaValar1: Apparently each comment will have to have a footnote to show where it's from exactly.
Eonwe Valar: As I said, it's not everything, just a couple of things that jumped out at me.
VardaValar1: Too broad a ref at the bottom.
VardaValar1: References: Silmarillion and its Indices Silmarillion Table: "The Sundering of the Elves" Return of the King Appendix F II "On Translation" Elves
ArPharazonV: The footnotes of a centipede...
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Good line, Phar.
VardaValar1: Let it be a warning for your article. If you can't immediately find the source of each comment from the footnotes, it will be debated.
ArPharazonV: I like seeing articles with a lot of footnotes. 3 little numbers in every sentence.
VardaValar1: hehe
Eonwe Valar: After writing alot of papers where I've had to have several citations, it's becoem a habit in research, heh.
Eonwe Valar: *become
VardaValar1: Since the article is under question, I'll pull it. The new one you're making will be sufficient.
Eonwe Valar: For good or ill.
VardaValar1: It protects you. Be sure to keep doing it!
Eonwe Valar: The entire article isn't, just a couple of parts.
ArPharazonV: I'd advise you to keep it in until the new one's made, for reference if nothing else.
VardaValar1: If the reference is questionable, and I did it, I want to pull it until I've gone back over it.
Eonwe Valar: If more members would do the research and send in articles for us, that would help :}
VardaValar1: Not going to happen. We've been getting fewer and fewer of any kind of contribution.
VardaValar1: Currently removing.
Eonwe Valar: I don't suppose offering a Mithril flake in LotRO for every well-researched article for the Tolkien Encyclopedia would help?
VardaValar1: I don't have enough to do that, but that's a great idea. :-)
Eonwe Valar: As Phar said, I'd at least leave it up until my article comes in.
Eonwe Valar: I have enough :}
AriehnV: well it seems from the Silmarillion, page 105-6 of my edition Harper - Collins 1999, that the Laiquendi were the surviving Elves originally led by Denethor who came to help the assaulted Thingol in Beleriand#
Eonwe Valar: You tell everyone on LotRO that I will offer one for every article that Varda deems a quality article.
Eonwe Valar: Until I run out.
AriehnV: some of the survivors retreated and merged with their surroundings , wearing green clothes as you mentioned .. those were called Green-Elves
AriehnV: the other part merged with Thingols people
VardaValar1: Removed.
VardaValar1: Offer one to those whom Eonwe calls a quality article. :-)
VardaValar1: I'm ineligible. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Well, you're the Tolkien Site Webmaster, so if you deem it a quality article, I'll go by your discretion :}
VardaValar1: If I'm being an incorrect source on the internet, I'm stopping that.
VardaValar1: That's why it's removed.
Eonwe Valar: Varda, I couldn't afford to give you mithril flakes for your contributions :}
AriehnV: tsk *hugz Varda"
VardaValar1: lol
ArPharazonV: hehe
ArPharazonV: I bet there aren't that many in the game.
VardaValar1: Elatan did his Encyclopedia on his lonesome.
Eonwe Valar: I'm not sure a lifetime subscription to LotRO would cover your contributions either :}
VardaValar1: I've thought about going that way. It's very tempting.
VardaValar1: Too late, have two of them already. ;-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
AriehnV: you are only human , dearie and as far as i am concerned i do qualify even less
AriehnV: i cant quote properly even * blush"
VardaValar1: As far as I know, the article was correct. I'll have to go over it and put footnotes all over it. Correct where anything is actually wrong.
Eonwe Valar: Most of it was correct :}
VardaValar1: I've made some errors just here in this transcript. :-)
Eonwe Valar: It was only those couple of things that read wrong to me.
VardaValar1: I'll have to look them up again.
VardaValar1: Might be the way they were said, misleading.
Eonwe Valar: You can use the footnotes in my Elves article for reference, hehe :}
VardaValar1: I'll be looking up my own. But sure, I'll be required to look at yours as editor. :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: It doesn't seem we're coming across the passage I was looking for, so I may not be able to use it in my article, unless it's found at a later date.
Eonwe Valar: In the meantime, shall we adjourn and allow everyone who needs to to be free :}
VardaValar1: Sure.
Eonwe Valar: *Raises the first gavel of the New Year*
Eonwe Valar: *Bangs the gavel, adjourning the first meeting of the New Year*
Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting :}
VardaValar1: Namarie and happy new year. :-)
ArPharazonV: Namarie :-) and HNY!
AriehnV: Namarie :-)
VardaValar1: We have several ways our articles are organized. Subject, timeline, and mostly by people.
AriehnV: Most .. , i prefer to tell mine in story way although of course i keep to the given timeline and time of events
AriehnV: and topic obviously
AriehnV: which sometimes means piecing bits and bobs together mentioned in half phrases
AriehnV: but are bound in the article topic as such if you take my meaning
VardaValar1: Aye.
VardaValar1: I meant how groups of articles are organized, not the inside of an article.
AriehnV: ah
VardaValar1: So the article you write about one of the human kings could be found on a timeline or on a page about humans or linked from another article that mentions him during an event.
AriehnV: i see
fladrifv has left the room.
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Oh, do keep in mind that tomorrow is Tolkien's Birthday :}
Eonwe Valar: January 3rd :}
VardaValar1: o wow!
ArPharazonV: how old would he have been?
Eonwe Valar: I think he was born in 1893,..
ArPharazonV: 117 then
Eonwe Valar: Or 1897, the year is escaping me at the moment.
VardaValar1: 1892
ArPharazonV: 118!
Eonwe Valar: So I was off by one year the first time.
VardaValar1: Good memory, Eonwe. I looked it up in a book. :-)
ArPharazonV: saving and sending
ArPharazonV: saved
ArPharazonV: ..under 2010, that won't work :D
ArPharazon-V: saved again!
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya :-D
ArPharazon-V: Aiya, you just missed my transcript a minute ago
Menelvagor Valar: It is most likely I am far later than the last gavel bang :-)
VardaValar1: yo
VardaValar1: heh
Menelvagor Valar: whoa.
ArPharazon-V: and transcript sent
VardaValar1: Happy JRRT's birthday tomorrow. :-)
EonweValar: Heya Menel :}
Menelvagor Valar: what an unVarda like greeting Varda :-D
VardaValar1: There's that transcript! Thanks.
ArPharazon-V: I'm sure you'll add to it, Varda, to include Menel :)
VardaValar1: Aiya Menel.
Menelvagor Valar: Yeah, I intended to be home early today...
Menelvagor Valar: somewhere along the way that became like 4 hours later.
ArPharazon-V: Namarie!
EonweValar: Sleep well Phar :}
ArPharazon-V (ArPharazonV) has left the room.