Valar Guild

February 6, 2011 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (5)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Galdor-(V)/galdorandwe, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, VardaValar1 (presiding)
Meeting begins
    New members today: Annael-(V) and Celeborn-(V).
    LARP (live action role-play)
    Humor link
    Elatan's mosaic art links
    Grey characters in Middle-earth.
    Galdor-(V)'s topic: Languages.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
VardaValar1: I'm with a Valar group in 2.5.5 Epic book instance
ArPharazonV: Arien just got online
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: aiya there :-)
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
ArPharazonV: how'd the apothecaries go then, Arien?
VardaValar1: I'll need Arien or Eonwe to chair. This instance forces constant attention. Starting third section.
VardaValar1: News has the latest very good info!
VardaValar1: Irmo's been busy. :-)
AriehnV: went well finallie
AriehnV: finally the first guys left after they saw the encounter and i had to reque
AriehnV: a healing neck dropped but the healer of our group needed it more
AriehnV: not really the head for chairing Varda i am sorry :-(
VardaValar1: Hoping Eonwe can. :-)
VardaValar1: I'm looking in at the short breaks between enemy waves
AriehnV: oh dear what ur doing?
VardaValar1: LotRO epic book instance 2.5.5 six man
ArPharazonV: Hardly a catchy name for an instance, is it?
VardaValar1: quick way to tell a 3-parter.
VardaValar1: The Battle of the 21st Hall, The Battle of the Deep-way, The Way of the Smiths.
ArPharazonV: Ah.
ArPharazonV: Moria!
ArPharazonV: All the instances and places I've heard you talk about in these meetings... Moria must be bigger than Kalimdor ;-)
AriehnV: well as it seems we are the three beauties tonight anyway ;
AriehnV: i guess that means we can keep it short and juicy
ArPharazonV: I tried to invite Iryenth and Pallando, but that failed
AriehnV: aye comes up as busy
AriehnV: and pallando rejects .. what have we or what have i done to him?
ArPharazonV: Rejected my invitation as well. I'm thinking he's not doing it manually, or has something more important to do :-)
AriehnV: :-\
VardaValar1: Hello, we're done now. :-)
VardaValar1: I left the game.
ArPharazonV: How'd it go?
VardaValar1: We were awesome. :-)
VardaValar1: Smooooth. Completed.
AriehnV: very nice :-)
AriehnV: congratsw
VardaValar1: How are you doing, Arien?
VardaValar1: Pallando has an auto-reject I think. Busy. Nothing personal. : )
VardaValar1: Ok, let's start. :-)

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: Irmo and Miriel brought more of their characters back to our LotRO kin, and Miriel will bring more tomorrow.
VardaValar1: Also, Irmo scouted and tested two people today so we have two new members, currently in LotRO.
VardaValar1: They are Celeborn-(V) and Annael-(V).
VardaValar1: Another is trying to figure out what name he wants, but passed the test.
VardaValar1: Do you folks have any membership news?
VardaValar1: By the way, today and right now is the Super Bowl. Most US males are watching it. :-)
ArPharazonV: THG got a few new members today, friends of one of our members, one of them is called Turambar
VardaValar1: My family is not interested. [Note: not interested in the Super Bowl.]
ArPharazonV: when I mean "our" members I mean THG, not VG
VardaValar1: Good taste in names for Turambar. :-)
VardaValar1: Since there is no Valar branch there, it was easy to understand. :-)
ArPharazonV: We chatted a bit about Tolkien, but it was a rather busy gaming day for me so I haven't talked to him about the Valarguild yet, but I will try so this week
AriehnV: nNo not atm , just that i am very tired and hence a tad bit testy :-(
VardaValar1: Is there any point to his joining?
VardaValar1: You testy sunlight you. ;-)
ArPharazonV: or maybe Arien will have a chance to talk to him
VardaValar1: Unless he wants to be a Tolkien-only, I don't see any need.
ArPharazonV: well, he is a Tolkien fan, and friendly so far, so seemed potentially scoutable, I believe he plays LotRO as well.
AriehnV: aye i will try to get the priest to 80 this week or a bit further
VardaValar1: That's done by sending in an article or other item for the site at least once a year.
VardaValar1: If he's interested in LotRO, we're on the Landroval server. : )
ArPharazonV: *nod*
VardaValar1: He's also welcome to drop in for meetings, of course.
karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: aiya
ArPharazonV: *nod*
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1: On the News, now and then I post a reminder to drop an email to me if they want to remain associated with the Valar Guild. This is intended for people who don't get to show up often so we wonders, yes we wonders.
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis. : )
AriehnV: if we have enough members to the great big guild as we are today i see no reason of not trying to reopen the branch, but to go and build it the other way round as it was is rather put the bridle on from behind ;-)
VardaValar1: Indis, we had a batch of new members in LotRO today. : )
VardaValar1: It would require someone dedicated to stick with it and put effort into it, not scattered. I don't believe we have anyone available for the European side.
VardaValar1: Any further membership news?
VardaValar1: Indis, good to see you. Did you have any membership news?
VardaValar1: Guess she's afk.

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: We have a new humor link found by Maedhros and seconded by Sauron:
VardaValar1: Gimli destroys the One Ring, a You Tube video
karakedi25: No, I'm here. No news from me
VardaValar1: Ok, thanks.
karakedi25: I saw the link :-)
AriehnV: i ve watched it and some of the others hehe
karakedi25: Anyone I know among the new members
AriehnV: its wicked
karakedi25: and did watch it
VardaValar1: We have new art from Elatan, incredible mosaics. The links are on the Forum and will be going into our art site. [Note: if permission is granted. Requested on the Forum and email.]
karakedi25: some of the other ones with it were pretty good
VardaValar1: He says this one is non-Tolkien but is called the Breaking of Spring:
VardaValar1: Eonwe has been working on heavy-duty programming trying to bring our Tolkien Site into the 21st century.
VardaValar1: We are one of the few sites left that use frames.
VardaValar1: Not sure how you folks feel about frames.
VardaValar1: Since I don't have a BS in Computer Programming as he does, I'm struggling with it. Good thing he's there.
karakedi25: [afk a few mins]
VardaValar1: So, no opinions on frames?
VardaValar1: ok
ArPharazonV: Well, they work, I guess. And if it's rare, that makes it special ;-)
VardaValar1: Phar, I do plan to update Purpose and Fate of Man with the Finrod talk, read back over the book stuff.
VardaValar1: heh
ArPharazonV: Personally I don't like upgrading just for the upgrading, but if it's helpful to upgrade, by all means, go for it
VardaValar1: To use our framed site, hit the Valar Guild gif on the starting page.
VardaValar1: Going directly in, hit the links at the bottom.
VardaValar1: He says it's easier to update and change with the new system.
VardaValar1: Good reasons.
ArPharazonV: Aye, that they are.
VardaValar1: For me, we don't have enough new coming in for it to make a lot of difference at this time.
VardaValar1: But if it ever got really busy, hmmm. Be nice to have it in place.

VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: Did anyone play anything besides WoW or LotRO this past week?
VardaValar1: Fangorn and I played StarCraft/BroodWar. Sauron played Civilization. Bilbo plays a whole string of games of which I lose track.
ArPharazonV: some Tasty Planet: Back for Seconds, now finished the timed levels, and going through the bonus stuff, but to unlock most of the bonus levels I need gold/silver/bronze medals on the standard levels, for best times... so looks like there's more challenge to it!
VardaValar1: O good. : )
VardaValar1: I need to get back to Second Life, go bug Fladrif. : )

VardaValar1: WoW:
VardaValar1: Did you two have any news you want to share?
ArPharazonV: I got 525 leatherworking today :-)
VardaValar1: That's a lot of work!
VardaValar1: Congratulations!
ArPharazonV: aye, but now I'm ready to craft me an epic chestpiece and belt, after I get the materials
VardaValar1: Grab them on the AH?
ArPharazonV: the materials? I could, but they're rather costly
ArPharazonV: as a skinner, I'd rather get them myself
VardaValar1: Aye : )
VardaValar1: WoW Uldaman Horde server:
VardaValar1: We've been trying out the goblin race, lot of fun. Remind me a fair bit of a greedy version of the gnomes. We can even call up our own bank after earning it.
VardaValar1: WoW Lothar server:
VardaValar1: Our Friday scheduled run netted a batch of guild achievement runs in Classic.
VardaValar1: We slammed right through Deadmines, Sunken Temple, Blackrock Depths, and Gnomeregan.
VardaValar1: We also were checking out the changes and helping some few folk pick up quests and Attunement to the Core.
VardaValar1: The Festival is going and we're playing with that too.

VardaValar1: LotRO:
VardaValar1: For the Monday run we did Dark Delving, a Moria 6-man instance, to get Maedhros' class quest, and just for fun went on and killed the right side boss, Grimreaver.
VardaValar1: We had so much fun that there's a request to run it again.
VardaValar1: My error
VardaValar1: Mixed up reports.
VardaValar1: Grimreaver was on the Wednesday run. :-)
VardaValar1: That was in Skumfil, also a Moria dungeon 6-man.
VardaValar1: Maedhros wrote about it on his blog. That was nice as he hasn't been around a lot lately but is now on much more.
VardaValar1: Today we ran a 6-man for the epic book instance Battle of 21st Hall, etc. Three-parter. 2.5.5
VardaValar1: The best part about it is we got to run with folks recently returned mixed with old members for a shakedown run to see how to run with each other.
VardaValar1: In the process, Irmo set us up with his personal Ventrilo server, so we don't have to use the old Go-greens server that was recently opened to all Landroval kins instead of just the few that the owner considered decent folks.
VardaValar1: Most of the kins on that rp server are pretty decent. : )
VardaValar1: So we have our very own Vent. 75-man.
VardaValar1: Any further business or news or comments or jokes?
VardaValar1: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: How many are able to be here and chat for the Tolkien section?
ArPharazonV: here
AriehnV: here
AriehnV: oh forgot kind of membership news if i may fit that in fast>
AriehnV: ?
VardaValar1: Go ahead.
VardaValar1: We're in between sections. :-)

AriehnV: if you remember i mentioned last summer i wanted to start up a LarP Group for North Scotland , name of Hollin Knights
AriehnV: its getting serious folks :-) i worked on the posters and they are going up around the area in the next few days and weeks
AriehnV: one is up in the coop already#
AriehnV: remains to be seen how the echo will be or whether it will come thogether at all
AriehnV: thats about it :-)
ArPharazonV: Makes me want to live in North Scotland :-)
VardaValar1: Do you have someone else to help you run it?
AriehnV: no reason whyyou couldnt attend , Pharzie , maybe in holidays :-) i envision only 2 or three events if that much and one for sure could be placed in holdi
AriehnV: holiday times
AriehnV: not yet no
AriehnV: i was thinking about contacting the wyverntale guys fromn the Festival in the Shire and have a chat about how to set up these kind of things
AriehnV: but only when i see that it will happen
galdorandwe has entered the room.
AriehnV: i am sure they will remember me :-) and maybe i can confer with Menel as well online via aim
VardaValar1: Aiya Galdor. : )
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
AriehnV: Aiya Galdor
VardaValar1: Arien's setting up a LARP group in Scotland. : )
galdorandwe: Aiya...still recoverring from that 2.5.5 experience :-)
AriehnV: tying to anyway lol
AriehnV: trying
VardaValar1: Rough on you tryiing to set up the new Vent and game at the same time!
karakedi25: aiya
karakedi25: did you finish 2.5.5?
VardaValar1: yes.
galdorandwe: With toon # 2
VardaValar1: Be nice to catch up my minstrel before we have to run it still again, heh. But she can more easily catch a pug, so no worries.
VardaValar1: We were about to go into Tolkien, hadn't quite shifted yet.
VardaValar1: Does anyone have a topic already?

VardaValar1: Tolkien had some characters that were right at the borderline of being good and being villains.
galdorandwe: Nim and Goldor both need you won't have to wait long
VardaValar1: They'll be done before Tinwetari gets that mithril axe out of the way, heh.
karakedi25: No hurry; I don't think I have any alts that are ready for it, but I can check.
ArPharazonV: Boromir, Smeagol..
ArPharazonV: Feanor, I suppose?
AriehnV: Feanor seems to bit somewhat more of a villain than a hero
VardaValar1: and Turin?
AriehnV: although i wouldnt deny he was gifted and courageous
AriehnV: Turin as well yes
VardaValar1: Turin had a pride and hastiness problem, and a little paranoia. He even ran a band of real outlaw bandits for a while.
ArPharazonV: Dunno, Feanor tried to avenge the losses of his family and people, and warred against Morgoth. Though more a villain by the end (and some of his sons even more so, later) he did have good motivations for doing what he did.
VardaValar1: He mainly wanted his Silmarils back, no matter who he had to drag into it.
karakedi25: Feanor was just plain nuts--paranoid and narcissistic
karakedi25: Turin suffered badly from narcissism, and of course a Valar's curse
VardaValar1: Hubris is a good word to describe some of those themes. Over-reaching pride. A certain amount of pride is good, but these went over the top.
VardaValar1: They weren't necessarily evil, but it bent them towards evil actions.
ArPharazonV: Hubris is a relatively new term for me. I always call it arrogance.
ArPharazonV: I suppose it's about the same.
VardaValar1: That's a good synonym.
galdorandwe: Turin was tragic...I wonder how much of it was fate or destiny...He was not dealt a good hand, and didn't play it well all the same.
VardaValar1: Such a problem, arrogance, gave Morgoth a good handle on people, including most or all of the kings who became ringwraiths.
VardaValar1: True, Galdor.
galdorandwe: His sister was most certainly dealt a bad hand...
ArPharazonV: Morgoth played his weaknesses quite well.
VardaValar1: Morgoth messed with his life, but if it had been someone like Aragorn or Finrod, they would have handled the cards better.
VardaValar1: I felt sorry for his sister.
VardaValar1: Finrod knew he would die thanks to the Oath of Feanor, wouldn't marry because of it. But went ahead to help Beren even so.
galdorandwe: That was Tolkein's tragedy for sure....
VardaValar1: That's a bad hand, but he handled it with great honor.
ArPharazonV: Nice contrast between Finrod and Turin.
VardaValar1: Heh, a new theme we've found. How to handle a bad hand!
AriehnV: *gg*
ArPharazonV: Finrod knew his fate, accepted it, made choices because of it, and dealt with it, doing what he knew might aid that fate anyway
galdorandwe: Is it worth mentioning that some of the names mentioned above we not necessarily evil but were put in bad circumstances and were "forced" to behave a certain way?
ArPharazonV: Turin, however, did everything he could to fight fate, and only unwillingly helped it along
ArPharazonV: Ultimately they both met their fates, of course, but I supposed it was harder for Turin.
AriehnV: you always can chose the path walk by your actions ... impetus, or some call it "intuition" can lead to over hasty actions especially when its paired with a nasty nember already
VardaValar1: That was the point, that there were interestingly gray characters, not just good or bad as some claim of Tolkien's works, aye.
AriehnV: "the path you walk" i mean
VardaValar1: A bad hand plus being hasty and having a quick temper, makes for a rough life.
AriehnV: *nods*]
galdorandwe: Take Boromir...he was not evil as all. He was overcome by the power fo the ring. If my memory isn't wrong, didn't he NOT want to go or is Peter Jackson creeping in.?
galdorandwe: Being weaker than the one ring doesn;t make one evil....
ArPharazonV: Same goes for Smeagol, of cours.
ArPharazonV: *course
VardaValar1: Boromir originally was in agreement that Faramir should go as the one the dreams were originally and frequently sent to. When Denethor would not allow it, Boromir went because it needed to be done.
VardaValar1: Boromir was not the first choice of the Valar but did the best with what he knew. He was a warrior who found a weapon. It would never have made it back to Denethor in any case.
galdorandwe: His murder of Deagol happened so quickly after the discoverr of the ring....was he necessarily weaker than the later hobbits? wa he not of Stoor origin or ancestry? I thought they might have been "stronger" or of tougher stock than the other hobbit aancestors....
VardaValar1: Smeagol. He was already a flawed character so the Ring found him more an apt hand to be on.
ArPharazonV: Well he had a weaker personality to begin with. Flawed, as Varda says.
VardaValar1: Deagol had some right to it. Smeagol tried to find an excuse to take it, then killed for it.
ArPharazonV: Then again, it goes for Boromir too. Why did it play on Boromir, and not Frodo or Aragorn, as much?
AriehnV: do we see any form of influence on Aragorn at all?
galdorandwe: Was Old Man Willow evil? or just a currupted entity? I imagine he was a grey character as well (at leasting on the bark :-)
VardaValar1: Boromir was a warrior, not a heavy-duty thinker like his brother, Frodo, or Aragorn. He was not equipped well enough to withstand it.
VardaValar1: All of them felt the Ring trying to reach them. Some rejected it more easily than others.
ArPharazonV: I'm not sure. It was there in the movie when Frodo put him to the same choice and he refused, but I don't recall any such scene in the book; Frodo and Sam left without confronting any of the others.
galdorandwe: Thorin Oakenshield might be thrown into this conversation as well.
VardaValar1: Aye, Thorin is a good example.
galdorandwe: Hubris Tier 9 Relic for sure :-)
ArPharazonV: well, turning to The Hobbit, what about the Master of Lake-town? :-)
AriehnV: Thorin wanted to take back the halls of his Father , recapture the dragons hoard and avenge the ill done to his people
ArPharazonV: Capable leader, though rather greedy and cowardly, if I recall, and even starting to work on the reconstruction of the town before he left with a bunch of gold meant for the town.
VardaValar1: The Master was a greedy politician, not unusual for his type. ;-)
galdorandwe: Perhaps a bit blindly and certainly after winning it back, forgot about those who helped him get there.....
AriehnV: shame he got corrupted by the dragon hoard and then went over the top in throwing Bilbo out of his camp and waging war against the other surrounding people
AriehnV: well .. or rather the Arkenjewel
AriehnV: Arkenstone
ArPharazonV: Avenge his family, reclaim his treasure, including shiny gem.... I see a bit of a parallel with Feanor, though quite less dark.
galdorandwe: Bilbo took the jewel and gave it to the others w/ Thorin's knowing.
AriehnV: aye but bilbo did it because he thought it would help to deal with Thorin
AriehnV: he didnt take it out of greed
VardaValar1: He took it to give it away, not keep. And to stop the war.
galdorandwe: Thorin is the one in question....who knows what might have happened if Bilbo hadn't taken action...there is another character I'm forgetting....Legolas' begins with 'O'....he had some pride that got in the way if I'm not mistaken...
VardaValar1: Oropher?
galdorandwe: Almost wiped out his whole unti in the war of the last alliance, right?
karakedi25: Oropher
galdorandwe: Didn't follow orders of Gil Galad...was poorly armoured...charged too soon out of pride...
VardaValar1: They let their emotions take over when an atrocity was committed in front of them to their friend. They came out of hiding, boiled out, and fought. Noldor held their position.
galdorandwe: Not a bad elf...just proud...
karakedi25: impulsive
VardaValar1: Again, let emotions run away instead of thinking. Not evil. Impulsive, aye Indis. And got most of his people killed.
VardaValar1: JRTT seems to value forethought. : )
AriehnV: hehe emotions can get rather in ones way .. in life's way even
VardaValar1: JRRT, sigh.
VardaValar1: /duck
AriehnV: /patr
VardaValar1: So we have to think before we jump.
VardaValar1: Consider the good of all first.
AriehnV: :-)
VardaValar1: Thank you everyone for your input! That was an interesting chat.
VardaValar1: Does anyone have anything else they want to mention before we go to After-meeting?

galdorandwe: I've been reading a little on the origins of a number fo the languages in Middle earth lately...not sure if any of you are at all interested or if it belongs elsewhere...
VardaValar1: It's a different topic but a good one.
VardaValar1: We have a whole section for it in the Encyc. : )
AriehnV: i think as a conclusion is we can say Tolkien has had indeed a wide variety of characters which are just as gray or colourful as we ourselves and as life itself is or can be , which gives his work rather a dephth and insight and that makes it so much more easier to become entrenched in it
VardaValar1: Agreed, Arien. : )
karakedi25: Galdor, that's a topic of great interest to me, and I've read a fair amount about it, but I'm sure you've picked up things I don't know yet.
VardaValar1: Are you referring to the Elves, Galdor? The languages caused by the Sundering of the Elves?
galdorandwe: Well, there are so many to discuss...I was reading about the Hobbits actually.
VardaValar1: Human languages were influenced when they met Elves, especially the Edain.
VardaValar1: Ok. Those guys shifted as they traveled. Still a bit of Rohirric in there though.
VardaValar1: What did you find out?
AriehnV: i found out my bed looks rather attractivie to me now ;-)
AriehnV: i ll read the rest up when you put up the script , my good valarites .. i shall look forward to it
karakedi25: sleep well Arien
ArPharazonV: Namarie :-)
AriehnV: Namarie :-)
AriehnV has left the room.
karakedi25: Hobbits originally spoke a language related to Rohirric, but much changed. Eventually as I remember, they switched over to Westron, but still with relic words from the original language.
galdorandwe: Well, the Stoors of the Marish, Buckland and Breeland seemed to have idiosyncracies of Dunlendings. Dialects...Marish is a version of marsh...the old English names like Hardbottle (botl) The name Nobottle (similar to a town in Northumberland Tolkein knew about...
galdorandwe: hobbits had a name for themselves called Kuduk, which is similar to the Rohirrim word kud-dukan or "hole dweller"....
karakedi25: hence in the Old English Tolkien used for Rohirric, holbytla
galdorandwe: we could take this conversationa hundred differnet ways.
galdorandwe: Take the word mathom....OE for a gift, precious or valuable...
VardaValar1: A number of the names we see in the book are said to be translations. Meriadoc is Kalimac, iirc.
galdorandwe: In the Shire it was usually a present thats use may have been forgotten, but they refused to throw it away...makes you wonder of Hobbits suffered from hoarding :-)
ArPharazonV: Frodo is.. Mara, I believe?
galdorandwe: Froda is from Beowulf
VardaValar1: Our word for mathoms here is white elephants. :-)
VardaValar1: There was an actual King Froda. Ahead of his time, peaceful. His son was the opposite, a conquering despot.
ArPharazonV: Kids these days..
VardaValar1: App. F shows Hobbit comes from Rohirric Holbytla "hole-builder".
VardaValar1: hehe Phar
galdorandwe: Thain is from OE thegn...member of one of several ranks between earls and freemen...
galdorandwe: makes sense in Tolkein's use
VardaValar1: App F "On Translation" has some of the name changes.
ArPharazonV: Most are found in the History though.
galdorandwe: Michel Delving...Middle English for great digging...
ArPharazonV: Also knows as "big hole"?
galdorandwe: The Rohirrim words are full of OE terms
VardaValar1: Sounds more of a Hobbitish rendering aye. : )
galdorandwe: anyway, if we move from Hobbits to others, we could be here for a millenium discussing it all.
galdorandwe: I think this is where Tolkein's genius is truly shown. He had a background in it and a passion for it. The language and cultural mixings (Finish lore, etc...) were awesome and the way he brought it al together...incredible.
VardaValar1: A lot in the On Translations for Hobbits too, such as mathom, smial, Smeagol and Deagol. Goes on quite a bit.
VardaValar1: Linguistics was his work and his passion. Writing gave him an explanation of his language, not language invented for the story. Very different from most books we'll ever read for that reason.
galdorandwe: Breaking for dinner...comforting beef...yum yum
VardaValar1: The story probably helped him improve the complexity, since he could see ever more reasons for the shifts.
VardaValar1: mmmm :-)
VardaValar1: How hobbitish of you!

VardaValar1: After-meeting!
galdorandwe: Namarie all.
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
galdorandwe has left the room.
karakedi25: food time for me too!
karakedi25: afk for the time being
VardaValar1: Feel free to try out the new Vent. : )
VardaValar1: I'm heading out too. Have a great night!
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
VardaValar1: Namarie to Phar, Transcripter Deluxe!
VardaValar1 has left the room.
karakedi25: Namarie
karakedi25 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Saving transcript