Valar Guild

August 14, 2011 Sunday Meeting

5pm EDT (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (6)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar, Galdor-(V)/galdorandwe, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, VardaValar1

Meeting begins
    New member: Nerdanel-(V)
    Arien on vacation.
    Games Site Mass-Update coming soon.
    Galdor's topic: Beornings and their ancestry continued.
    Topic: FotR ch. 2 "Shadows of the Past"
    Some continuation of the Tolkien chat.
    WoW gaming together afterwards.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: I did not expect to see you.
VardaValar1: Aiya
VardaValar1: Fangorn's mother died a day earlier than expected. We have not been home long.
ArPharazonV: My condolences.
VardaValar1: Thank you
VardaValar1: We had a great many folk at the funeral. Flowers, music. Many people getting together again for the first time in years, figuring out how to keep in touch.
VardaValar1: We fear Fangorn's father may not last long, but he's a very tough gentleman.
VardaValar1: Thank you for being here. :-)
ArPharazonV: :-) as if I'd miss it for anything than other pressing matters!
ArPharazonV: other than? not sure..
VardaValar1: other than, aye. :-)
ArPharazonV: other than other pressing matters, that'll do
VardaValar1: That works.
VardaValar1: Looks like that time of day.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe :-)
galdorandwe has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya all.
VardaValar1: Aiya Galdor :-)
Eonwe Valar: Back already, Varda?
galdorandwe: Aiya :-)
VardaValar1: Fangorn's mother died a day earlier than expected. We got home just a bit ago.
Eonwe Valar: Sorry to hear that.
VardaValar1: The air conditioning at our house had been out several days, but Sauron and Bilbo didn't tell us, not wanting to bother us.
VardaValar1: We had it repaired, place is livable. Eowyn came back with us for a few days.
VardaValar1: So there's my Membership news, a tad early. :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Well, now seems like a good time to begin the meeting, so here we go.

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: See above for Varda's :}
VardaValar1: ./wave
Eonwe Valar: Any other Membership news?

Eonwe Valar: Web:
VardaValar1: I have some
Eonwe Valar: Nothing from me to report for now, except that the Games Site Mass-Update is coming soon, as it always does this time of year.
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead Varda.
VardaValar1: yay Eonwe :-)
VardaValar1: New art from DeepGroover-(T), an award-winning model.
VardaValar1: He entered the Nationals for model competition and won 3 first place, 2 second place, and 2 third place awards.
galdorandwe: Nice
VardaValar1: There's a story in my mailbox from Jay of Lasgalen to be put up this week.
VardaValar1: And an article that should also be going up this week.
VardaValar1: That's all my news.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: Lothar:
Eonwe Valar: Sunday Run:
Eonwe Valar: Attending:Members: Eonwe, Elwing, Eowyn, Bofur, Nob, Varda, Fangorn (Joined us at Freya)Guild Friends: Rayearth, Schlep. We picked up from last week, and cleared through Freya (9 bosses). Next week we pick up at Mimiron. Achievements Obtained: I Choose You, Runemaster MolgeimWith Open ArmsThe Antechamber of UlduarLose Your IllusionI'll Take You All On
Eonwe Valar: Friday Run:
Eonwe Valar: Due to rolling blackouts in my area Thursday and Friday, I didn't make it early enough for anything on Friday. I hope those who did show had fun.
Eonwe Valar: This Sunday I didn't expect there'd be enough to pick up on Ulduar this week due to the circumstances, but I guess we'll see. If we do, we'll continue, if not, we'll have something of a free day and go pick on something else for the night.
VardaValar1: Friday, Bilbo and Sauron had no air-conditioning and did not turn on their computers.
VardaValar1: Surprise, we have a lot of folk for this Sunday's run.
galdorandwe: no...just a reference
galdorandwe: gimme a few
Eonwe Valar: hmm?
VardaValar1: mt :-)
Eonwe Valar: I'm assuming :}
VardaValar1: Side window chat to pass on for Tolkien chat.

Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: Your floor, Varda :}
VardaValar1: First LotRO news is that we picked up a new member there, after the Sunday meeting and WoW run.
VardaValar1: Nerdanel-(V)
VardaValar1: She passed 5/5 and brought all three of her characters into the kin.
ArPharazonV: Welcome!
VardaValar1: She's an accomplished artist, and has done art for games. She is considering something she could make or send us.
VardaValar1: Galdor appears to be typing.
galdorandwe: She's very fun to chat with in game and plays well too. She's on VERY late for me. I usually catch her on about 2:00AM EST...when I'm arriving home from a performance.
VardaValar1: So just right for you. :-)
galdorandwe: Well, if I don;t mind getting no sleep :-)
VardaValar1: She's in California, so her time zone is a bit tough to run with so many EST folk.
VardaValar1: Sleep? What is this? : )
galdorandwe: only 3 hours difference, She was still on when I woke up at 7 AM
VardaValar1: Maybe she'll get to run with the Euros.
galdorandwe: She must be a night owl :-)
galdorandwe: Is that term to dated to still use?
AriehnV has entered the room.
galdorandwe: *too
Eonwe Valar: night owl? Works fine for me.
AriehnV: Aiya all :-)
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien. : )
ArPharazonV: Aiya
galdorandwe: Aiya Arien
VardaValar1: Not too dated for me, Galdor.
galdorandwe: I recall hearing that more in the 70's and 80's...but OK :-)
VardaValar1: So, recently, aye.
ArPharazonV: well if there's no new term, I don't see why not!
VardaValar1: In other LotRO news:
galdorandwe: Good point..if it's not broke , don't fix it :-)
VardaValar1: I want to praise with great praise Galdor and Pippin, who both stepped in to help keep our instance nights organized when I had to be gone.
VardaValar1: They also both sent reports for the News. : )
VardaValar1: Galdor, would you like to give your Monday report? (Puttng him on the spot here.)
galdorandwe: sure...give me a second
galdorandwe: This was a group of “irregulars” to be honest...Celeborn (Kebb 65 Champ); Nimrodel (Wildwun 65 Lm...and Ardisian 65 Hunter); Maedhros (Lachwen 46 RK); Ulmo (Winge 53 Hunter...NIequi 65 Mini); Indis (Mereniel 65 LM)/ later subbed out for Pippen(Faerus 65 Guardian) and Galdor (Dolenatan 48 Capt.) Carn Dum: Mirroval queen and later Hechegim. Ulmo’s class quests for his Hunter. First toon indicates what each started with. Second toon indicated what they alted to. Indis went to sleep and Pippen took her place. We wiped 3 times, and then won Helchigam for Ulmo. Pippen was in Vent all the while giving us directions until he finally took Indis’ place. Once we had a dedicated healer (Niequi) we won easily. In all honesty, My Capt. did a fine job healing, but aggro became a problem. Loving that toon.
galdorandwe: I cut and pasted the e-mail
VardaValar1: That email is also on our News page.
VardaValar1: Thank you, Galdor. : )
VardaValar1: Pippin sent in the Wednesday report, also on the News page:
VardaValar1: not a lot of folks came on, it was a rather sparse Ulmo, Nimrodel, and I took our Mini, hunter, guardian over to NCF and completed t2.
galdorandwe: I heard they made it look pretty easy once they remembered what to do. Nimrodel gave me a nice report on it.
VardaValar1: LotRO is still running the pre-order specials at least until September. The beta is running currently.
VardaValar1: I did not receive Nim's report and couldn't put it up.
galdorandwe: She told me in-game chat when we were questing the day after
AriehnV: Faerus helped my burglar with some typical noop location information since he passed in the area where i was questing (west Evendim, working for the Ent) which was really kind of him
VardaValar1: (Faerus is Pippin-V)
AriehnV: make that *noob* with b
AriehnV: aye gathered that :-)
AriehnV: so i actually sneaked her up to 39
galdorandwe: Nice
AriehnV: really enjoying this character to be honest
AriehnV: some prefer more range, some melee, some sneak stab , some blast boom and others just hack
AriehnV: but seems i do sneak stab ^^
VardaValar1: Good to hear you found your niche. : )
galdorandwe: Burg's are fun to play, for sure.
VardaValar1: Burglars can be very helpful in a group.
galdorandwe: I ran an interesting run the other day I'd like to share.
karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: Aiya
galdorandwe: I ran the Turtle raid with 10 Burg's and 2 Capt's. We beat it in 30 seconds flat.
galdorandwe: Aiya Indis
galdorandwe: It was almost like a cheat
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis : )
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: The turtle has to be run fast or it can't be beaten.
VardaValar1: but that group sounds like great fun. : )
galdorandwe: The guy who was running it called it a Burg Merg or somehting like that...I guess they do it a lot
galdorandwe: They try for the best time...I guess we either tied it or beat it that night.
VardaValar1: Great. : )
galdorandwe: Reveal Weakness stacks, Cunning Attach stacks and the Buffs from the Capt's was great :-)
VardaValar1: Indis, did you have any Valar LotRO news?
karakedi25: nothing new, no
VardaValar1: Thanks
Eonwe Valar: Ok, before we move to Tolkien, is there any other gaming news?

VardaValar1: Bunch of family currently playing Hellgate.
AriehnV: *just a small addition to Member news if i can chip that in*
Eonwe Valar: That's still going? I thought the guys for Hellgate:London closed down shop a few years back.
ArPharazonV: *shrug* just some flashgames, nothing reall noteworthy
ArPharazonV: *really
VardaValar1: Eonwe, South Korea bought Hellgate, and it now has free to play.
Eonwe Valar: Aha.
Eonwe Valar: Hadn't heard that.
VardaValar1: Now you know. :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}

Eonwe Valar: OK Arien, go ahead with your news :}
AriehnV: I am on holiday officially from now :-D
VardaValar1: Grats!
galdorandwe: Nice
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
AriehnV: altho i had the day off today
AriehnV: so it was nice
ArPharazonV: Grats :-)
AriehnV: :-)
AriehnV: 2 and a half weeks , and visiting my parents in Germany , flying out wednesday and back next Tuesday
galdorandwe: Cool.
AriehnV: so i wont be online inbetween and not here for the next meeting
AriehnV: That was me :-)
Eonwe Valar: Have fun visiting :}

Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
Eonwe Valar: I'm told Galdor has a bit more on the Beornings discussion from last week that he'd like to give, so I'm giving him his chance. Go ahead, Galdor :}
galdorandwe: With repest to last week's topic about Beornings and their ancestry, I found on pg 407 in RoTK, appendix f, "On Men" mentions clearly that they were decendents of the Edain who settled in the area of the Carrock during the 1st Age.
galdorandwe: *respect
galdorandwe: Which begs the question of how they got their shape-shifting abilities..."evolution"?
galdorandwe: But that was last weeks' topic and I don't want to hijack the scheduled topic for this week.
ArPharazonV: Strange evolution to take place at such short notice, unless radiation is involved :-)
ArPharazonV: the X-men of Arda?
galdorandwe: :-)
VardaValar1: Berserkers were known in northern tales, and I think this was brought in for that reason.
VardaValar1: Berserkers were humans, from human parents.
fladrifv has entered the room.
fladrifv has left the room.
VardaValar1: They could go into a rage, dangerous to anyone near them, so they were sent ahead to break up enemy ranks.
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
fladrifv has left the room.
VardaValar1: Some said that a person could become a berserker by wearing a bear skin, thus the name.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Then the story moved on to the people being actual bears, and wearing a bearskin could help with scaring the enemy into believing that.
ArPharazonV: *gasp* Beorn never was a bear, just disguised!
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: So Beorn would come from the time of the tales where humans could become bears. Some other stories had ladies turning into swans. In other areas some people could become seals.
VardaValar1: South America had jaguars, and everyone has heard of wolfmen.
VardaValar1: The skin idea was an element in a lot of them at some time. Some even said the skin would turn inside out so they could look human. Most had it as clothing.
VardaValar1: So if you cut Beorn, would he first show hair before getting far enough to bleed? I'm not checking.
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Bah, I hope someone else is able to send in a meeting report, heh.
ArPharazonV: I'll make a quick temporary save
VardaValar1: Thanks. Seems a tad unstable.
VardaValar1: We've had several fall in and out. Should we stop for now?

VardaValar1: If not, we could look at "Shadows of the Past" in FotR.
ArPharazonV: Will need to grab the book then.
VardaValar1: It has a number of bits of foreshadowing, and even suggestions that might be solutions later, if they were remembered.
ArPharazonV: It's also one of the first looks into the past of Middle-Earth, I believe.. especially when it comes to ringlore.
VardaValar1: True
VardaValar1: We find out that in that long time before Frodo left the Shire, he was visiting Elves in the woods.
VardaValar1: He also developed a habit of tramping all over the Shire with his close friends. They were used to doing this before they joined the Fellowship.
VardaValar1: Frodo is already showing signs of not aging, and hobbits are beginning to notice.
VardaValar1: That's the first bit going along with that ringlore you mentioned, Phar.
galdorandwe: He used the excuse that they were "long-living" on his mother's side. :-)
VardaValar1: When the stranger people started suddenly showing up in the Shire, Frodo would talk to them.
VardaValar1: aye :-)
ArPharazonV: It's also the most time-covering chapter, about 17 years :-)
VardaValar1: Shows a lot of changes happening in the world, as they even affected a quiet place as far from it as the Shire, aye.
VardaValar1: Elves started passing through going one way.
ArPharazonV: Dwarves were also coming in larger numbers, seeking refuge in the west.
VardaValar1: Dwarves were on the road a lot more and whispered of Mordor.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: They told of the power in Mirkwood having been driven out and reappearing stronger in Mordor.
ArPharazonV: Orcs continued multiplying, trolls became cunning and well-armed.. it seems war was being prepared for.
VardaValar1: The Dark Tower (Barad-dur) was rebuilt.
VardaValar1: Dark times a-comin'!
VardaValar1: And it worked its way into everyday conversation.
VardaValar1: What about that tree they mentioned?
VardaValar1: It had to bring back memories of the war at the Hedge and the burning.
VardaValar1: Wouldn't that be a bit of foreshadowing as well?
VardaValar1: An elm tree walking in the North Moors.
ArPharazonV: And nobody would believe the foreshadowing :-)
VardaValar1: True! Then the story jumps right into the Ring.
VardaValar1: Gandalf educates Frodo quite a bit, on all the Rings.
ArPharazonV: Starting with the creation of them.
ArPharazonV: Gandalf seems to indicate that the invisibility thing goes for all Great Rings, and not just the One.
galdorandwe: There is a short passage about Frodo finding the ring becoming suddenly heavy when he handed it to Gandalf just before he tossed it in the fire...that certainly is important foreshadowing of how difficult parting with it will become the longer he has it...and perhaps the closer he gets to it's maker.
VardaValar1: Gandalf is leadng up to the fact that Frodo has a dangerous ring
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: Interesting comment from Gandalf. He had been wanting to approach Saruman about the Ring's oddities but "something always held him back".
ArPharazonV: Then we get the first ring-poem...
galdorandwe: The rings of power look out for says somewhere in there.
VardaValar1: Gandalf wasn't sure there was a real problem until he heard Bilbo's comments after the Party.
galdorandwe: THAT is very interesting information about ringlore.
VardaValar1: So then they proved it was the master ring, with the part Galdor just told us.
ArPharazonV: It's said that it might take a long while for the influence to wear off Bilbo (from the Ring), before it was safe for him to see it again
ArPharazonV: if I remember a scene from Rivendell, of which I'm not entirely sure it's in the book, all those years apart wasnt long enough.
VardaValar1: Aye. And he still felt it when he was heading for the Grey Havens. One powerful ring.
galdorandwe: My guess is that it's influence remains longer, the more time you have it...take Gollum for instance.
Eonwe Valar: The Rivendell scene was in the book, just not quite that,... yeah.
VardaValar1: Gandaflf was careful to make sure Frodo knew about the other rings as well.
ArPharazonV: yes, Galdor, Gandalf says so too
ArPharazonV: it would take long for Bilbo because he had it for so long, and used it too
VardaValar1: That he knew how Sauron had slipped in everywhere.
ArPharazonV: and for Gollum it was far worse, even
VardaValar1: yet Gollum didn't become a wraith. One more clue of the strength of hobbits.
galdorandwe: Very good point.
VardaValar1: Gollum didn't actually wear it much.
VardaValar1: yet having it that long, wearing or not, quite a feat.
ArPharazonV: He didn't need to. The tunnels were pitch-black.
VardaValar1: He was already invisible, aye. : )
ArPharazonV: The fading only comes from using it for invisibility, Gandalf says.
ArPharazonV: And with the growing activity.. I suppose Bilbo would've been more likely to turn into a wraith than Gollum had been.
galdorandwe: If the wraiths and Sauron were drawn to the power of the ring, why didn't they sense Bilbo wearing it as much as he did in the Hobbit?
VardaValar1: Gollum did use the Ring for invisibility at first living with the other Stoors, to learn info for extortion.
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Because they weren't very active at that point. Sauron was about to be driven out of Mirkwood, and was still in a weakened state; while the wraiths hadn't been seen in a long time.
VardaValar1: Bilbo didn't wear it often.
ArPharazonV: Hiding in Mordor I think.
VardaValar1: Aye, what Phar said.
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ArPharazonV: I guess the Ring wasn't much of a priority until Sauron got settled in and captured Gollum.
galdorandwe: good point
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: The Ring gave power according to the wearer's stature.
VardaValar1: Sauron wanted the Ring, but had to wait for enough power in himself to call it. He also called all dark creatures about the same time.
VardaValar1: The Ring slipped away from Gollum trying to return to Sauron. Gollum was staying in place, but if it could find an orc, it had a good chance of returning.
VardaValar1: Interesting that a hobbit was dropped on it just as it slipped away. It was meant to be.
VardaValar1: The Valar slipped very quietly into events as needed.
galdorandwe: convenient
Eonwe Valar: "Surely you don't disbelieve the prophecies, just because you had a hand in bringing them about?" :}
VardaValar1: Gandalf several times makes mentions of such slipping in. The Valar had not abandoned Arda as Sauron believed.
ArPharazonV: Valar Ex Machina?
VardaValar1: hehe Eonwe
galdorandwe: why didn't they just have an eagle fly them to Mt. Doom and drop it in? :-) would have saved a lot of time :-)
VardaValar1: The Valar were working to build up the Free People, whom they considered their siblings, and use Sauron as a tool for that. But if they failed, then they failed, and darkness would fall.
VardaValar1: Nazgul, the Eye, the Watchers.
Eonwe Valar: If I recall, "Deus ex machina" is usually used to imply a contrived solution that doesn't flow logically from the story? I don't think it works so well here.
VardaValar1: The Valar are deeply embedded the story, but very quietly.
ArPharazonV: Just referring to the sometimes seemingly arbitrary/contrived coincidences that can be attributed to the Valar.
VardaValar1: It's part of JRRT's desire to be writing the Sil, rather than another Hobbit story.
VardaValar1: Agreed. : )
galdorandwe: Like adding that nice tailwind for Aragorn and the ships to arrive in Gondor just in time?
Eonwe Valar: "seemingly" indeed, hehe.
VardaValar1: Manwe, Lord of the Winds, of course had *nothing* to do with that.
ArPharazonV: How did the eagles know to be at the battle of the Black Gate, anyway? Think Manwe had something to do with that?
VardaValar1: Gollum thought his fine new friends in Mordor would help him with his revenge.
galdorandwe: Or for Theodin to find his courage just before he led the cavalry into the Battle in the Pelennor Fields?
karakedi25: there are a number of references to things that were 'meant to be' including Bilbo's meeting with the dwarves way back
galdorandwe: Theoden
VardaValar1: Gandalf as Olorin had long walked in secret among the elves to give them visions to help them do what they needed to do, strengthen their resolve. On Arda physically, he could do it in a new manner, more openly. As for Theoden.
Eonwe Valar: I don't recall Theoden needing to "find his courage" in the books.
VardaValar1: Theoden had courage, but he had blinders.
galdorandwe: Read the passage just as they get to the battle and he looks at the field...then there's a boom somewhere and he gets his courage back..Varda and I have discussed this before.
Eonwe Valar: Or in the movies, for that matter. Seems in the movies he was a bit bitter, but not so much afraid.
VardaValar1: Anyone of wisdom knows that a battle means there will be injury and probably death to their folk.
VardaValar1: Even just one person, for which the leader feels responsible, becomes a source of concern.
VardaValar1: To continue anyway is courage. It may come from resolve due to seeing the need.
VardaValar1: Frodo finds that while Gandalf is explaining the danger of the Ring, he already can't willingly harm it.
galdorandwe: last 3 pages of the Ride of the Rohirrim...wind is involved here as well
VardaValar1: Gandalf tells him it would take the Cracks of Doom to destroy it. And Frodo, upset, wants to know why he was "chosen".
AriehnV: I remember that Frodo tried to give the Ring to Gandalf as he felt unsure about the task and to be the ring's keeper
galdorandwe: and a flash as if lightning had sprung from beneath the city
VardaValar1: If you want to shift to wind in the books, look at the ends for Saruman and Sauron. : )
AriehnV: but Gandalf refused of course since the ring would corrupt him into yet another Dark Lord
galdorandwe: Saruman's spirit appearing to look west after his death and a wind blowing it away?
VardaValar1: For Gandalf, the way to his heart was through Pity, a favorite of his of the Valie.
AriehnV: (obviously he feels the temptation , remember his violent reaction? )
VardaValar1: a cold, West wind
VardaValar1: Gandalf did not want to be tempted, because he had such need of power, and already realized it.
AriehnV: aye thats what i mean
VardaValar1: sorry, wind from out of the West.
VardaValar1: Agreed, Arien.
VardaValar1: and then we wind up the chapter bringing in Sam, who heard altogether too much.
VardaValar1: What was Sam's fate for spying?
AriehnV: He was being taken along
VardaValar1: That was pretty severe punishment, and the only direction that would please him.
ArPharazonV: Or if he breathed one word about the conversation, he should be turned into a spotted toad and the garden filled with grasssnakes :-)
AriehnV: i dont think sam saw it really as punishment actually, not at this point anyway
VardaValar1: Gandalf: "Something to shut your mouth, and punish you properly for listening. You shall go away with Mr. Frodo!"
VardaValar1: '"Me, sir!" cried Sam, springing up like a dog being invited for a walk. "Me go and see Elves and all! Hooray! he shouted, and then burst into tears."
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: About that time his information leak to the Conspiracy dried up.
VardaValar1: We have hit the end of the chapter we were discussing. :-)
VardaValar1: Does anyone have any further comments?
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Welcome back, Eonwe. : )
Eonwe Valar: Thanks, heh.
Eonwe Valar: It's about 15 minutes to WoW Sunday Run time, so if the chat has died down, this is a good place to bang the gavel and let everyone prepare for what they plan on doing next.
Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel*

Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting.
VardaValar1: See you there, Eonwe. : )
karakedi25: Have fun
ArPharazonV: Have fun then :-)
VardaValar1: 15 minutes to eat! : )
Eonwe Valar: By the way Galdor, I found that passage about Theoden you were referring to. Yeah, it does say "dread" but it seems to me it was dread that they were too late, not lack of courage.
VardaValar1: Galdor is away for dinner, but will probably see the transcript notes.
AriehnV: hmm seems the launcher is having trouble to start
AriehnV has left the room.
VardaValar1: ouch, maybe it's the connection.
VardaValar1: WoW has a download going for me.
VardaValar1: Nice, the Valar Guild is at level 12 now.
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ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript