April 11, 2011 Sunday Meeting
5pm EST (GMT - 5)
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AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
Transcript work by Ar-Pharazon and Varda.
ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar, Fladrifv, Galdor-(V)/galdorandwe, Glorfindel
VG, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, VardaValar1 (presiding)
Elrond counseled Gimli against taking an oath to hold the party
together ("The Ring Goes South", Fellowship). Why?
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Phar! Five minutes yet, no worries. :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya :-)
ArPharazonV: Raid ended, so just reading stuff... one of the Warcraft RPG books
VardaValar1: Neat :-)
ArPharazonV: Makes me want to play D&D, Warcraft style.
VardaValar1: *shoves Phar into f2p LotRO for a change of pace*
VardaValar1: Enjoy reading, got a little time. :-)
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe :-)
karakedi25 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Indis.
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis :-)
Fladrifv has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Fladrif :-)
VardaValar1: ok, invited all we could.
VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership News:
VardaValar1: Fangorn hopes to be back in town late Tuesday.
VardaValar1: Any other news?
karakedi25: Have another West Coast trip coming up 4/30-5/12
VardaValar1: You're a traveler. : )
karakedi25: good stuff :-)
VardaValar1: Anyone else have membership news?
VardaValar1: Nothing new online for the Tolkien Site.
VardaValar1: Did anyone play anything besides LotRO and WoW? :-)
ArPharazonV: Some Starcraft II
ArPharazonV: Nova's mission, which was the last one I did before a bit of a break, will return to the campaign later
ArPharazonV: Also did some custom games on Starcraft II, some more physicsgames, and I played a bit of Touhou, various installments. Not really improving there, though.
VardaValar1: Eonwe, would you like to give the WoW report?
Eonwe Valar: Sure.
Eonwe Valar: Sunday Report:
Eonwe Valar: Participants: Members: Eonwë, Varda, Eowyn, Fangorn. Guild-friends: Schlep
Eonwe Valar: Sauron passed on his spot so Schlep could join us to tank.
Eonwe Valar: This Sunday, we took on a couple of normal Cataclysm
dungeons. First, we gave Stonecore a go, and did well clearing it. Then
we decided to give Vortex Pinnacle a go, and also did well.
Eonwe Valar: After this, Eonwe decided to call it a night, giving his
spot up to Bilbo, and the group went on to help Bilbo get the last
achievement he needed to get his red proto-drake.Eonwe Valar: Friday
Eonwe Valar: Participants: Eowyn, Elwing, Eonwë
Eonwe Valar: First, we queued up for Throne of the Tides so Elwing
could complete the quests there. After we completed the dungeon, we
found we hadn't saved Erunak, so we three went back for him, and
successfully saved him.
Eonwe Valar: Afterwards, we queued up for a random normal dungeon for
the daily, and ended up in the Lost City of the Tol'vir. The run went
well, except at the end we found Elwing still needed one more Captain.
We three hunted down a Captain, and upon finding one, killed the mobs
between us and him. After killing him, we called it a night. Both Eowyn
and Elwing got some upgrades tonight.
Eonwe Valar: Also on Friday were Arien and Glorfindel, working their
characters up. Eonwe Valar: We also had some off-day runs during the
Eonwe Valar: End report.
VardaValar1: Thanks Eonwe : )
VardaValar1: For LotRO, on
Monday we took a look at Sammath Gul in the Dol Guldur area. We made it
to the lightning boss and found that that fight had changed. We tried a
number of different techniques that didn't work and had to break up for
VardaValar1: Wednesday we did two Annuminas marks runs, Sammath Gul. We
made it to Gorothul and plan to work more on that boss fight.
VardaValar1: We got past the lightning boss that time with Indis along to give us tips on the new method. : ) Thanks Indis! :-)
VardaValar1: Participants: Gildor (guardian Marrella), Indis
(lore-master Alasse), Maedhros (warden Maedhroc), Nimrodel (champion
CynthaJane; hunter Ardisian for SG), Pippin (champion Avengelina for
2nd Annum run and SG), Tulkas (hunter Astald for the first Annum run),
Varda (65 minstrel Tinwetari).
VardaValar1: We have a lot of runs during the week, including the ones
every afternoon of the Irmorim to which others of us are welcome.
VardaValar1: One of the runs was Sword Halls also in Dol Guldur, first time for my undergeared minstrel, but successful.
VardaValar1: That was by Gorlim (guardian Sprain), Tulkas (hunter Astald), and Varda (minstrel Tinwetari).
VardaValar1: Friday evening we had a major run clearing everything in Carn Dum, just on impulse.
VardaValar1: Participants: Celeborn (51 Kebb came in after Helchgam),
Galdor (hunter Andwe through Helchgam), Gildor (rune-keeper Lirafalla),
Gorlim (minstrel Aeronwy after Helchgam), Nimrodel (hunter Ardisian),
Pippin (warden Illiardo), and Varda (minstrel Tinwetari).
VardaValar1: I would be happy to give just a mention of other kin runs but can only report the ones I know. : )
VardaValar1: Carn Dum was important as it helped several with class quests and everyone with deeds.
VardaValar1: Indis, did you have anything to add?
karakedi25: sounds pretty comprethensive
VardaValar1: Does anyone have any further business or new business?
ArPharazonV: small WoW report, Europe
VardaValar1: Go ahead, Phar.
ArPharazonV: Helm's hunter and my druid joined a few raid-friends of
mine in the hunt for a great Whale Shark in the southeast parts of
VardaValar1: That thing's huge. : )
ArPharazonV: First one we found was already grey in name, so we figured
it would bug if we killed it for ourselves, but luckily another one was
ArPharazonV: Using a mage to tank and kite the gigantic beast through
the waters there, and all of us employing ranged attacks (I used my
seldom-used Balance dualspec for it), we won in about.. 5 to 10
minutes, I think.
ArPharazonV: And got the appropriate achievement for most in the group, including Helm and myself.
ArPharazonV: So it was a nice bit of teamwork :-)
VardaValar1: Huzzah! And good to hear about Helm too.
VardaValar1: Arien says she's caught in a slow group in BRD and will be along as soon as she can.
ArPharazonV: Aye. The three of us also worked a bit on the guild achievements for fishing cataclysm cooking recipes.
ArPharazonV: *fishing and cataclysm cooking
ArPharazonV: And that's my report, concerning Valar-members' cooperation on Argent Dawn :-)
VardaValar1: Thank you, Golden One!
VardaValar1: Well done. : )
ArPharazonV: Maybe Arien knows some more, but it's all I can think of.
VardaValar1: Arien hopes to be along in a bit.
VardaValar1: Let's move on to
VardaValar1: Elrond counseled Gimli against taking an oath to hold the party together ("The Ring Goes South", Fellowship). Why?
ArPharazonV: Nobody knew for sure what dangers and adventures they
would all face, and he did not want them to make oaths they could not
ArPharazonV: And there were indeed unforeseen events that made it a
good decision; what would have happened to Merry and Pippin if Aragorn
and the others had sworn an oath to accompany Frodo?
ArPharazonV: Well, actually, they probably would have been fine anyway,
since Aragorn did not manage to free them from the Orcs before the
battle at Fangorn, but they could not know that.
VardaValar1: Frodo wanted to lose them to prevent the Ring from taking
them over as it had Boromir. If he'd taken the oath, he'd have had
VardaValar1: This attempted rescue gave the other party members something honorable to do right away.
VardaValar1: They could allow Frodo to go ahead without them as they knew he wanted.
VardaValar1: Also think of what Elrond had seen come of oaths.
Eonwe Valar: Aye. The Oath of Fëanor playing out even at the end of the First Age.
ArPharazonV: Aye, that's true. He was there at the third Kinslaying.
VardaValar1: Even Finrod's oath to Barahir, a human, got him entangled in the Silmaril oath.
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Sunshine. : )
karakedi25: essentially, Elrond was a wise man who knew the importance of keeping options open (and Aiya Arien)
AriehnV: aiya .. very hungry sunshine :-( must eat
VardaValar1: Aye. An oath closes options that one is not aware of at the time.
VardaValar1: Bon appetit!
ArPharazonV: Oaths enforce actions that seem logical to enforce at the
time the oath is made, but can have disastrous consequences if enforced
at a later time.
karakedi25: and many are made in the heat of passion or other strong feelings, and prudent thought comes later
VardaValar1: They can restrict more people than the oath-takers as well.
karakedi25: yes, as in the case of the Noldor in the First Age
VardaValar1: The Valar had to wait for Earendil to bring the combined
request from elves and humans along with a silmaril before they could
freely bring their forces.
Eonwe Valar: There are oaths that worked out well, such as the Oath of Eorl.
VardaValar1: That one was fortunate not to end badly, but an oath of friendship is more likely to do well than most. : )
VardaValar1: Which leads to
VardaValar1: what did Elrond expect to hold the party together if not an oath?
ArPharazonV: Oaths of loyalty don't always work out though.
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar, as Elrond knew.
ArPharazonV: Personal judgement, I guess.
galdorandwe has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Friendship, unsworn; honor; determination; knowledge of what was at stake, for each party member.
VardaValar1: Aiya Galdor : )
ArPharazonV: Full disclosure, so to speak.
galdorandwe: Common Purpose?
karakedi25: aiya Galdor
Eonwe Valar: Comon Purpose. They all knew what rode on the success of the Fellowship.
ArPharazonV: They knew what had to be done, and were willing to go a
long way to ensure it, and the lack of oaths made it possible for them
to do so in ways they could never expect back at Rivendell.
galdorandwe: No one needed to go farther than they wanted to, right?
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Galdor.
VardaValar1: There you go! Fellowship. You are all defining it beautifully. The Fellowship of the Ring.
VardaValar1: Aye Galdor
ArPharazonV: If they had sworn oaths they might have gone a long way,
but Aragorn ultimately supported the quest more by drawing out the
armies of Mordor than he could have done if he was escorting Frodo
galdorandwe: So, if there is no sworn oath...no one is bound to
one...but they are going along solely because they believe in the task
VardaValar1: Aye : )
galdorandwe: That might have been all they needed. Besides, if the ring
took hold of any of them, as it did Boromir, the oath might be in
Eonwe Valar: Gandalf acted as leader up to Moria, providing a neutral
party between the Elves, Dwarves, and Men who may or may not otherwise
get along, though when contention about a direction existed, the
Ringbearer got the final vote.
VardaValar1: So Boromir was not forsworn.
galdorandwe: I believe there might have been a journey of
self-discovery on all their parts and thay was what sustained them
after Gandalf's departure.
ArPharazonV: What would have happened to Boromir if he had sworn an oath? Would his resistance to temptation have lasted longer?
ArPharazonV: Or would he eventually have broken down more than he did in this case?
Eonwe Valar: He would have held off longer, until he could convince
himself of a plan that would allow him to keep his oath, if only in his
galdorandwe: Perhaps not, but it might have made the oath a bit
"weaker" because of it. I mean, if the oath can't withstand the force
of the ring, how strong of an oath could it be?
Eonwe Valar: Consider Faramir's words, that "We are truthspeakers, we
men of Gondor. If we swear an oath, we perform, or die in the attempt."
AriehnV: (back )
Eonwe Valar: Even Gollum, in order to get risk delivering Frodo to Shelob, had to find a loophole in the oath he swore.
VardaValar1: Chances are, the whole group would have been standing together when the orcs attacked. Toast.
galdorandwe: Were the dwarves necessarily more quick to swear oaths than any other race?
VardaValar1: We humans are wonderful at finding loopholes. The Ring should've been Boromir's, of course.
karakedi25: of course!
ArPharazonV: According to inheritance, it should've been Aragorn's :-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Phar :}
AriehnV: he knew Aragorn's identity and heritage .. but he wasnt very
fond of the fact even tho he supported him (somewhat reluctantly )
VardaValar1: Elves were caught for most of their history on an oath or
several, so it's hard to say the dwarves were worse about it.
galdorandwe: Elrond had the gift of foresight. Could he have seen that
an oath would not carry them as far as the bonds they forged in
fellowship along the way?
AriehnV: the elves relationship was a bit tainted anyway considered what followed in the wake of Feanor's
VardaValar1: Possibly, or it may have been simple experience.
Eonwe Valar: Elrond had personal experience with the fallout of oaths given lightly or in the heat of the moment.
AriehnV: (insert to oaths )
VardaValar1: (Galdor had to go afk)
AriehnV: i am not sure about the dwarves , Gimli seemed to want to make
sure people stayed loyal to the goal and each other and thought the
oath would make sure of that
Eonwe Valar: Dwarves weren't unfamiliar with passing their oaths of hatred down through the generations either.
VardaValar1: He thought it might strengthen quaking heart. Maybe because he was unsure of the non-dwarves?
karakedi25: or even of himself?
VardaValar1: Aye. He was traveling with his father, apparently not a very old dwarf.
Eonwe Valar: I always find Elrond's and Gilmi's trading of proverbs on
Elrond's doorstep to be amusing. He's arguing with one of the oldest
and wisest Elves alive. Talk about "a plague upon the stick necks of
Eonwe Valar: er, stiff, aye. and assume anything else in there was spelled right, heh.
VardaValar1: Fellowship tends to mean it's a group that sees itself as
peers. Maybe that's why so many were nobly born, so they couldn't look
down on the others. And Sam was obviously noble of spirit in the best
karakedi25: and to some degree it seems to have been customary among
many folk to use an oath as an indication of emphasis and seriousness
ArPharazonV: Well, to be fair, the fact that he travels with his father
doesn't have to make him that young. Thorim travelled with his father
and his grandfather, that doesn't make his father a young dwarf.
VardaValar1: Aye, but hanging out with family sometmes makes one feel like one of the youngsters even at a considerable age.
VardaValar1: Gimli did reach a considerable age in Middle-earth before leaving with Legolas on their grey boat.
VardaValar1: Gimli was born TA 2879. This was 3018.
VardaValar1: 139 years of age
Eonwe Valar: That's not *that* old for Dwarves, actually :}
Eonwe Valar: At 139, he still had many good fighting, crafting, and oathing years ahead of him.
VardaValar1: Just like Legolas was not old for elves, probably born
after the Last Alliance. Boromir was not all that old either. Or the
hobbits. And Aragorn was 87, not aged for a Numenorean.
VardaValar1: More of their being a kind of peer group.
Eonwe Valar: Except for Pippin, however, they were al adults.
Eonwe Valar: *all
galdorandwe has left the room.
VardaValar1: Aye, there was some concern by Elrond that he was too young. All were not far into adulthood.
ArPharazonV: Well. Except Gandalf ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Hobbits are adults at 33, I think Men are the same. Dwarves I want to say about 50, Elves at about 100.
VardaValar1: He's a Maia. He could look younger if he liked, as Olorin. But aye. : )
Eonwe Valar: Adults either by the social customs of their people or by physical maturity.
VardaValar1: On the subject of oaths, Arien just ran across Feanor's oath on YouTube, says it gave her a shiver.
VardaValar1: AriehnV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDcnEhASd9U
AriehnV: its read in quenya but there is a translation underneath
VardaValar1: o wow. Thanks Arien, just listened.
AriehnV: Dwarves i always thought were adults about sixty , .. Frali is
just above sixty so not much more than a boy even tho a *young adult *
VardaValar1: Young adult seems to cover a fair bit of territory. : )
VardaValar1: JRRT has some recitations showing up in this area too.
Eonwe Valar: Dwarves hit their prime at 40, and stay there till about 240.
ArPharazonV: So Gimli was in the middle of this prime.
AriehnV: aye if you just search "oath of feanor " on you tube you ll likely find a fair few interesting videos ;-)
Eonwe Valar: After 240, it's typically a quick trip downhill to wrap up on average around 250, in the Third Age.
VardaValar1: JRRT reads the One Ring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s59oDfDoI8&NR=1
VardaValar1: JRRT reads Namarie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6de_SbVUVfA&NR=1
Eonwe Valar: Dwarf longivty might've been longer in earlier ages, but only a few Dwarves reached 300 in the Third Age.
Eonwe Valar: *longevity
Eonwe Valar: http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/articles/d/dwarves/dwarvesE.htm for everything you wanted to know about Dwarves but didn't know you could ask :}
ArPharazonV: You'll learn things you never knew you never knew.
Eonwe Valar: The guy who wrote that article put alot of stuff in there *cough* :}
VardaValar1: He sure did. : ) Geat job, Eonwe!
VardaValar1: As we've gone quiet, probably into YouTube, the gavel falls!
VardaValar1: Welcome to After-meeting, free chat. : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
AriehnV: nice one interesting discussion .. .lthe little that i saw of
it :-) sorry for my late arrival btw , unfortunately i landed in BRD
and the group was one of the rare ones who did all the bosses
VardaValar1: Ohh, found a whole collection of Tolkien reads:
VardaValar1: Very good, Arien. : )
VardaValar1: Congratulations on that run.
VardaValar1: Tolkien Ensemble does A Elbereth Gilthoniel:
VardaValar1: ok, I'll stop. : )
AriehnV: hehe Helm has agreed to write a short article on his namegiver Varda
VardaValar1: Does he know to send it to my email?
VardaValar1: We'll all look forward to reading it!
AriehnV: I am not sure when he will actually do it but i ll tickle him
if he takes too long , i ll give him the website again and your email
Glorfindel VG has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Glorfindel. Welcome to after-meeting. : )
Glorfindel VG: AIya! Sorry I'm late :-\
Eonwe Valar: Heya Glorfindel :} You made it in time for Aftermeeting :}
AriehnV: heya Glorfindel :-)
Glorfindel VG: Hehe that's right
Glorfindel VG: hello ariehn
VardaValar1: We finished up faster than usual. : )
AriehnV: (btw Blind Guardian have a new album out called At the edge of Time for the metalheads )
VardaValar1: How do I look it up? I could add that to the one I tried to put up. Might be better quality.
AriehnV: I am logged in wow us if anyone wants to come :-)
VardaValar1: I may come in as my worgen soon.
Glorfindel VG: My warrior is up to level 30 now, btw :-D
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
ArPharazonV: Congrats :-)
Glorfindel VG: thanks!
AriehnV: drood 31
ArPharazonV: Grats :-)
Fladrifv has left the room.
karakedi25 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript!